Senate Select Committee on Intelligence: torture report (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

I'm sensing some shtick here.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

, prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere in the CIA’s global archipelago of “black sites” were subjected to “rectal feeding,” “rectal hydration,” and similar violations.

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

I doubt you losers would be pro-torture if you were the victims, as these people were.

Dude got a free colonoscopy. That's an expensive procedure.

In regards to the CIA prisoners, sounds like they were doing it out of concern for their health...Sounds like the prisoners were on a hunger strike.

 

[tommyboy]

I'm sensing some shtick here.

Frankly, Colonel, your moral compass is so ####ed up id be surprised if you can find your way back to the parking lot

 

[timschochet]

I'm sensing some shtick here.

Frankly, Colonel, your moral compass is so ####ed up id be surprised if you can find your way back to the parking lot

If only I had your sense of morals instead. I'd feel so much cleaner.

 

[badmojo1006]

I'm sensing some shtick here.

I am starting to agree. Nobody can be this depraved.

 

[Ignoramus]

I've always felt an argument - any argument - is rather weak when one side's defense largely rests on a "But they do it too!" line of thinking.

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't feel it's acceptable to hold ourselves up to the standards that are terrorists. We should set an example, not follow theirs.

"Mom! He's looking at me!"

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

I doubt you losers would be pro-torture if you were the victims, as these people were.

Dude got a free colonoscopy. That's an expensive procedure.

Think of the money you'd save on teeth whitening products. Eat and poop through the same source.... T

 

[lod01]

I'm sensing some shtick here.

You do realize that even after all this dog and pony show, we will continue with business as usual. Whether we perform the actual torture or outsource it, it will continue.

Yeah, the 'free' colonoscopy was shtick but that's about it.

 

[tommyboy]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

 

[badmojo1006]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because we are better than that

 

[The_Man]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

 

[Todd Andrews]

This book by a career CIA covert operative who interrogated an alleged top level Al Qaeda detainee, some of it in the Salt Pit, explains it in exhaustive detail. Here is a recent op/ed he wrote in the Boston Globe.

Thanks for these, although the op/ed didn't really address Geneva-compliant methods of interrogating hostile prisoners.

The Amazon link ... have you read Carle's book yourself? I noticed a few other books linked at the bottom of the page that look worth seeking out.

I have. Very interesting.

 

[johnnycakes]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

Don't forget about #20 from the Senate report!!

 

[tommyboy]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

yeah, it does work actually

who cares

who cares

who cares

they already do

 

[lod01]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

I'll cross of 2 that are wrong. Of course it works. You actually believe that BS that has been spewed? What do you think they are going to say? 'Our report finds that torture is a highly effective way of gaining knowledge'? C'mon. that was all a dog and pony show that you guys got hooked on like a carp.

thinking that if we don't do it, others won't do it to us. Talk about naivety at the highest level.

The other 3.....that's why it's supposed to be kept as a secret. That's why it will continue without your knowledge.

You tell 'em tommyboy.

 

[badmojo1006]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

yeah, it does work actually

who cares -

who cares

who cares

they already do

So you don't care about America? You just care about the Blood Lust

 

[Sammy3469]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

yeah, it does work actually

who cares -

who cares

who cares

they already do

So you don't care about America? You just care about the Blood Lust

MMMM...tasty blood lust

 

[johnnycakes]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

yeah, it does work actually

who cares -

who cares

who cares

they already do

So you don't care about America? You just care about the Blood Lust

MMMM...tasty blood lust

Now I know why steak tastes so good.

 

[Koya]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

John McCain put it pretty damn well (damn lefty Liberal):

What might cause a surprise not just to our enemies, but to many Americans is how little these practices did to aid our efforts to bring 9/11 culprits to justice and to find and prevent terrorist attacks today and tomorrow…

And I suspect the objection of those same officials to the release of this report is really focused on that disclosure; torture's ineffectiveness. Because we gave up much in the expectation that torture would make us safer. Too much. Obviously, we need intelligence to defeat our enemies, but we need reliable intelligence. Torture produces more misleading information than actionable intelligence. And what the advocates of harsh and cruel interrogation methods have never established is that we couldn't have gathered as good or more reliable intelligence from using humane methods. The most important lead we got in the search for Osama Bin Laden came from conventional interrogation methods. I think it's an insult to the many intelligence officers who have acquired good intelligence without hurting or degrading suspects. Yes, we can and we will.

But in the end, torture's failure to serve its intended purpose isn't the main reason to oppose its use. I have often said and will always maintain that this question isn't about our enemies, it's about us. It's about who we were, who we are and who we aspire to be.

 

[Koya]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

I'll cross of 2 that are wrong. Of course it works. You actually believe that BS that has been spewed? What do you think they are going to say? 'Our report finds that torture is a highly effective way of gaining knowledge'? C'mon. that was all a dog and pony show that you guys got hooked on like a carp.

thinking that if we don't do it, others won't do it to us. Talk about naivety at the highest level.

The other 3.....that's why it's supposed to be kept as a secret. That's why it will continue without your knowledge.

You tell 'em tommyboy.

It DOESN'T work. It provides bad information. Plain and simple (see my post, above).

And more importantly, it degrades us as a nation, our citizens and the values we should hold true.

Torture is the tool of the terrorist, the tool of the weak, the tool of one who believes more in machismo optics than one who believes in either humanity - or constructive and valuable intelligence.

It is wrong. It is shortsighted. And the lack of humanity in so many, the lack of the belief in our system of justice that can be thrown out at will is not only sickening, but terribly hypocritical.

Small gov't but they should be allowed to torture? Laughable.

Allow gov't to torture, and worse yet, seem to make up it's own rules and lie about when it has or will happen and when it's "acceptable" but not be concerned that they can use this power against their own citizens? Utterly shortsighted.

Don't tell me one ####### bit about you being small gov't when you accept this egregious overreach of injustice and inhumanity

 

[joffer]

don't think you're getting it. it works. why? because they say it works.

 

[Hang 10]

If some 24 type #### goes down I'm not taking anything off the table.

 

[badmojo1006]

don't think you're getting it. it works. why? because they say it works.

Oh, when they say it, OK then

 

[Lutherman2112]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

yeah, it does work actually

who cares

who cares

who cares

they already do

What a convincing argument.

 

[Koya]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

Because it doesn't work.

Because it is contrary to our ideals as a nation.

Because it is contrary to our laws and our Constitution.

Because it is contrary to international treaties that we have signed.

Because it will incite others to do the same to our citizens.

yeah, it does work actually

who cares

who cares

who cares

they already do

What a convincing argument.

Who cares? really???

Says it all. And honestly, what it says is scarily pathetic. It's one thing to believe that is works and understand that it either fits in with our laws and ideals, or that you admit it does not, but sometimes you need to act contrary to your general principals.

To not care? Just a tremendous statement of (lack of) character imo. And a total cop out at that.

 

[FlapJacks]

I'm shtick here.

as many had suspected....

 

[Lutherman2112]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Since everyone tortures, i see no reason to take that option off the table for the US. Besides were not any more special than any other country

The bold comment of yours is a red herring or logical fallacy; tu quoque, literally translated as "you too".

Pointing out that other countries do the same or worse does not absolve the United States of torturing people.

 

[tommyboy]

And yet Inglorious Basterds made millions of dollars in this country.

 

[badmojo1006]

And yet Inglorious Basterds made millions of dollars in this country.

 

[Lutherman2112]

And yet Inglorious Basterds made millions of dollars in this country.

Inglorious Basterds is classified as fictional alternative history.

ETA: This might help you out...NSFW due to language:

http://youtu.be/djUVJOmE_vo

And then there is this: THE REAL INGLORIOUS BASTARDS ; trailer

another video ; and note, the hero collected information without torture. When caught, he was tortured. When he met his torturer after the war, the torturer begged the hero not to harm his family. The hero's reply? "what do you think, we are Nazi's?"

 

[timschochet]

And yet Inglorious Basterds made millions of dollars in this country.

Inglorious Basterds is classified as fictional alternative history.

What??? You mean Hitler didn't get gunned down? WTF

 

[shadrap]

Torture works. It always has worked & always will. There isn't one person on this forum that wouldn't spill their guts. Not a #######g one. You people get into the complexities of misinformation gathered, etc. Follow the talking points. Ooo, its barbaric, we are so much better than that. We have to set a shining example to those who will behead your wife & kids.

Its BS.

You will tell what you know & if you know that if you lie, you get worse stuff, then you tell the good stuff. Wait a minute, I pretty sure most of you would give false info when they have a blow torch on your left eye. Yea right.

Give me a break gentlemen, its called torture & I can guarantee this: If some nut job had your 10 year old son hidden away being abused & you could find him with torture you would be ALL IN.

So you can all stop with this high & mighty moral outrage.

But that won't happen, the feely good mantra of really caring is a feely good thing; even though its hypocritical to the max.

 

[joffer]

This is the dumbest argument I could possibly think of.

well done

 

[badmojo1006]

Torture works. It always has worked & always will. There isn't one person on this forum that wouldn't spill their guts. Not a #######g one. You people get into the complexities of misinformation gathered, etc. Follow the talking points. Ooo, its barbaric, we are so much better than that. We have to set a shining example to those who will behead your wife & kids.

Its BS.

You will tell what you know & if you know that if you lie, you get worse stuff, then you tell the good stuff. Wait a minute, I pretty sure most of you would give false info when they have a blow torch on your left eye. Yea right.

Give me a break gentlemen, its called torture & I can guarantee this: If some nut job had your 10 year old son hidden away being abused & you could find him with torture you would be ALL IN.

So you can all stop with this high & mighty moral outrage.

But that won't happen, the feely good mantra of really caring is a feely good thing; even though its hypocritical to the max.

45 Posts in 4 Years? Who is this? Who created this alias to post this? Hmmmm?

 

[Lutherman2112]

Torture works. It always has worked & always will.

As you proclaim yourself as an Irish idiot, I would suggest you look into the British Operation Demetrius and its failure to cull correct information and stop the IRA during the Troubles. The operation had the opposite effect of the expected outcome.

I do agree with you on one point: you are an idiot.

 

[shadrap]

No alias. I came on board a month or so ago. Why would I need an alias? It's a forum for opinions. I have an opinion & gave it.

I use the moniker irishidiot vrs. something like the "professor" because I don't value my intelligence or lack of as an indicator of my standing in life.

If you want to think you can withstand torture & not give out pertinent info, then fine by me. IMO that is patently delusional, but have at it. Feely goody to your hearts desire.

 

[badmojo1006]

No alias. I came on board a month or so ago. Why would I need an alias? It's a forum for opinions. I have an opinion & gave it.

I use the moniker irishidiot vrs. something like the "professor" because I don't value my intelligence or lack of as an indicator of my standing in life.

If you want to think you can withstand torture & not give out pertinent info, then fine by me. IMO that is patently delusional, but have at it. Feely goody to your hearts desire.

• irishidiot
• 46 posts
• Joined 27-July 10

 

[tommyboy]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

The most important lead we got in the search for Osama Bin Laden came from conventional interrogation methods. I think it's an insult to the many intelligence officers who have acquired good intelligence without hurting or degrading suspects.

yeah. No, this isn't true at all. nice soundbite though

 

[tommyboy]

if your child had 2hrs to live and you had the guy responsible for it in your house, detained you would torture him.

if an atom bomb was about to be deployed and we had custody of one of the conspirators, you'd torture him. If you didnt' torture him and 10 million people got fried, people would want to know why not.

my Pro-torture stance is situational. Do i think we should torture as a matter of SOP? hell no. Do I think we should feel especially bad about what we did after 9/11? also, no.

 

[Todd Andrews]

This book by a career CIA covert operative who interrogated an alleged top level Al Qaeda detainee, some of it in the Salt Pit, explains it in exhaustive detail. Here is a recent op/ed he wrote in the Boston Globe.

Thanks for these, although the op/ed didn't really address Geneva-compliant methods of interrogating hostile prisoners.

The Amazon link ... have you read Carle's book yourself? I noticed a few other books linked at the bottom of the page that look worth seeking out.

Found a cool older interview Carle did that gets deeper into the guts of interrogation.

Fascinating front line war on terror stuff.

 

[Courtjester]

I think it is interesting what is going on with this whole report and all the angles that it covers.

You have Feinstein releasing this in what is clearly a political move--I mean, there is no other explanation for the timing.

You have a sacrificial lamb like Mark Udall going out in a flame of glory in the Senate trying to stir the pot.

You have Kerry basically asking her not to release this report --which I am guessing is at the administration's request.

You have a lot of Republicans and members of the intelligence community condemning this as an attack piece and being completely flawed. "I guess you must love the terrorists over Americans who tried to keep you safe" will be their call. Wonder who will win this one?

You have the UN now calling for criminal charges against those that perpetrated the torture.

You have the MSM pushing this thing like no tomorrow because hey, we can get another shot in at Bush.

And finally you have the American public who frankly could not care one bit about this story. I mean, most Americans are Xmas shopping, worrying about paying bills and the ones that might care and protest, are still focusing on Garner and Brown and not worried about what happened almost 15 years ago. I can guarantee you if you took a poll that asked "Would you support torture of terrorists if it resulted in American lives being saved?" 80 plus percent of those polled would say yes.

My personal opinion and understand it is just that, is I would guess Obama wants this to go away quietly because I bet there were acts of interrogation that took place (and probably still do) under his watch and it will sure be embarrassing for that to come out. Guess what? It probably has happened under every president--Bush didn't invent tort...or rough interrogation. In addition, Obama wants these last two years to make policy--this distraction does nothing for him. Again the public doesn't care about this issue . Plus the crown jewel accomplishment in his presidency is the death of Bin-Laden. If you have people now saying it wasn't intelligence that got him and maybe it was just luck (as some opinion pieces are now suggesting) ugghh, he doesn't want that. You can't say look how safe I kept this country and then turn your back on the people that maybe made it happen.

Plus I think the end game of this piece is bad for the Democrats because (keeping in mind the public's apathy on this subject) I think you will see a ton of rebuttal come out showing specific examples of terrorists that were taken down or acts of terrorism that were prevented--maybe real? Maybe fiction? So if you're a Democrat seeking reelection in 2016--you have a choice of siding with the don't hurt the terrorists crowd or just plain disavowing the report and pretending it doesn't exist.

I bet this all goes away nice and quiet like....

 

[Koya]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

The most important lead we got in the search for Osama Bin Laden came from conventional interrogation methods. I think it's an insult to the many intelligence officers who have acquired good intelligence without hurting or degrading suspects.

yeah. No, this isn't true at all. nice soundbite though

Are you saying McCain is lying? Or not informed on this subject?

On one hand, I have partisan politics and some message boarders who's defense on this subject is "who cares vs. McCain. Who am I to trust on this matter, really?

 

[timschochet]

if your child had 2hrs to live and you had the guy responsible for it in your house, detained you would torture him.

if an atom bomb was about to be deployed and we had custody of one of the conspirators, you'd torture him. If you didnt' torture him and 10 million people got fried, people would want to know why not.

my Pro-torture stance is situational. Do i think we should torture as a matter of SOP? hell no. Do I think we should feel especially bad about what we did after 9/11? also, no.

As much as I disagree with tommyboy's overall philosophy, (which this fits right into) I have to admit that he makes some reasonable points here. Yes, ultimately I believe that torture could be justified in the "ticking time bomb scenario" that always appears on 24. But the problem is, it doesn't really happen that way in real life. So far as I know, all of the times we used torture did NOT involve ticking time bombs. And therefore tommyboy, given your own situational limitations, the American use of torture has not been justified.

Furthermore, you contradict yourself by saying you are OK with it being used after 9/11. Had it been used before 9/11, to prevent 9/11, that would be justifiable per your argument. But it's use after 9/11, without any ticking time bomb, suggests that it is used more as a punishment rather than as a means to prevent further attacks. And that is definitely not justified.

 

[johnnycakes]

if your child had 2hrs to live and you had the guy responsible for it in your house, detained you would torture him.

if an atom bomb was about to be deployed and we had custody of one of the conspirators, you'd torture him. If you didnt' torture him and 10 million people got fried, people would want to know why not.

my Pro-torture stance is situational. Do i think we should torture as a matter of SOP? hell no. Do I think we should feel especially bad about what we did after 9/11? also, no.

As much as I disagree with tommyboy's overall philosophy, (which this fits right into) I have to admit that he makes some reasonable points here. Yes, ultimately I believe that torture could be justified in the "ticking time bomb scenario" that always appears on 24. But the problem is, it doesn't really happen that way in real life. So far as I know, all of the times we used torture did NOT involve ticking time bombs. And therefore tommyboy, given your own situational limitations, the American use of torture has not been justified.

Furthermore, you contradict yourself by saying you are OK with it being used after 9/11. Had it been used before 9/11, to prevent 9/11, that would be justifiable per your argument. But it's use after 9/11, without any ticking time bomb, suggests that it is used more as a punishment rather than as a means to prevent further attacks. And that is definitely not justified.

Golly, Tim.... I love you, but you're such a ball-buster.

No... don't let me go on record as saying I find entertaining something Tim posts.

 

[Koya]

if your child had 2hrs to live and you had the guy responsible for it in your house, detained you would torture him.

if an atom bomb was about to be deployed and we had custody of one of the conspirators, you'd torture him. If you didnt' torture him and 10 million people got fried, people would want to know why not.

my Pro-torture stance is situational. Do i think we should torture as a matter of SOP? hell no. Do I think we should feel especially bad about what we did after 9/11? also, no.

All subjects are nuanced, including this one.

As I mentioned before, there are exceptions to break the rule, but we are talking about the dark underbelly of reality... not accepted and supported - and vastly used - tactics (that don't work for that matter).

In the very rare situation that torture would actually work and provide good info for an extreme / dire situation, I could see it. As I can see spying - even on allies - when needed.

That said, it's one of those issues that cuts SO deep, I literally would expect the very few trained in the art, if EVER exposed, best disappear and have little to no trail, deny all ties to gov't, etc. Like burning a spy. You can't admit you've done it, and if it HAS to be done in the dark of war it needs to be secret, covert - and used under the most rare of circumstances. And goodness, it's not to be admitted, not to say "policy" and sweeping policy at that.

That said, unless I KNOW that it can work (and what I hear is mostly contrary to that, at least in most situations), why risk losing your soul as a nation (and I don't mean that hyperbolically, honest)

 

[timschochet]

if your child had 2hrs to live and you had the guy responsible for it in your house, detained you would torture him.

if an atom bomb was about to be deployed and we had custody of one of the conspirators, you'd torture him. If you didnt' torture him and 10 million people got fried, people would want to know why not.

my Pro-torture stance is situational. Do i think we should torture as a matter of SOP? hell no. Do I think we should feel especially bad about what we did after 9/11? also, no.

As much as I disagree with tommyboy's overall philosophy, (which this fits right into) I have to admit that he makes some reasonable points here. Yes, ultimately I believe that torture could be justified in the "ticking time bomb scenario" that always appears on 24. But the problem is, it doesn't really happen that way in real life. So far as I know, all of the times we used torture did NOT involve ticking time bombs. And therefore tommyboy, given your own situational limitations, the American use of torture has not been justified.

Furthermore, you contradict yourself by saying you are OK with it being used after 9/11. Had it been used before 9/11, to prevent 9/11, that would be justifiable per your argument. But it's use after 9/11, without any ticking time bomb, suggests that it is used more as a punishment rather than as a means to prevent further attacks. And that is definitely not justified.

Golly, Tim.... I love you, but you're such a ball-buster.

No... don't let me go on record as saying I find entertaining something Tim posts.

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little ####ed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to ####in' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

 

[Todd Andrews]

Everyone agrees that torture doesnt work.

Except for KooKs.

 

[timschochet]

I have a devil's advocate question for those opposed to torture: suppose it did work, every time? Suppose it was 100% effective? Would you still be opposed to it for moral reasons?

 

[Lutherman2112]

if your child had 2hrs to live and you had the guy responsible for it in your house, detained you would torture him.

if an atom bomb was about to be deployed and we had custody of one of the conspirators, you'd torture him. If you didnt' torture him and 10 million people got fried, people would want to know why not.

my Pro-torture stance is situational. Do i think we should torture as a matter of SOP? hell no. Do I think we should feel especially bad about what we did after 9/11? also, no.

You watch too much "24".

When you build your life around fiction, and allow fiction to infiltrate your opinions in real life, you are delusional.

Try real life for a change.

 

[Lutherman2112]

still waiting for an answer on why we shouldn't torture.

The most important lead we got in the search for Osama Bin Laden came from conventional interrogation methods. I think it's an insult to the many intelligence officers who have acquired good intelligence without hurting or degrading suspects.

yeah. No, this isn't true at all. nice soundbite though

Prove it.