Serena and Sexism (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

It did not decide the match. 

She was up 3-2 in the second set, had a point assessed, then a game assessed, and then was down 5-3, 1 game away from losing the match.

Certainly other things were involved.  But these are the finals of the U.S. Open.  It's like having four defensive holding calls on a last-minute drive in the Super Bowl.  

 

[Mookie]

I think there's a disconnect between her sexism claim and her actions.  She is deflecting attention away from her behavior and her opponent's play by claiming to be a victim because men have gotten away with far worse.  Anecdotally, she may have a point, but that's a far broader issue that shouldn't be the main talking point in the post-match interview or the day after her loss.  Instead of being contrite and apologetic, this looks like a desperate ploy to shift responsibility for the loss onto the chair umpire.   

 

[Dickies]

The question though remains, does this umpire penalize men the same when they call him a non-vulgar name?

I honestly don't know.  From some of the stuff posted here it appears the umpire is inconsistent, but having watched what went down I would say the men need a tighter leash if they are getting away with worse.

 

[Survivor7700]

First off, I can't really weigh in on if Serena really thought her Coach was giving her a thumbs up or not. That is her saying what she thought and what the Umpire saw. It was obvious what I saw on TV and it wasn't a thumbs up, but I wasn't on the court and didn't have Serena's view of the stands either. Serena smashing her racquet on the court was inexcusable and she should have been warned by the umpire for that. The whole calling the umpire a "thief" and having a game taken away there has been a lot more berating of umpires by both men and women and I think all the things leading up to that comment led to that happening. 

As for Serena taking away from Osaka's spotlight I really disagree. In the trophy ceremony Serena was seen consoling Osaka when the crowd was booing her and she was crying and when it was time for her to speak she told the crowd to stop the booing. She gave props to Osaka who was definitely shy and shook from the experience and tried to make the experience for her the best it could be.

 

[timschochet]

I think there's a disconnect between her sexism claim and her actions.  She is deflecting attention away from her behavior and her opponent's play by claiming to be a victim because men have gotten away with far worse.  Anecdotally, she may have a point, but that's a far broader issue that shouldn't be the main talking point in the post-match interview or the day after her loss.  Instead of being contrite and apologetic, this looks like a desperate ploy to shift responsibility for the loss onto the chair umpire.   

She doesn't seem to project the "blame everyone but myself for a loss" mentality that some do. (Trump for instance.) So I'm not sure how accurate this is; it doesn't fit.

 

[Zigg]

I believe Kyrgios was suspended for a tournament after his actions in Toronto, and they added a serve clock because of Nadal.   I watch a decent amount of tennis, and those are the only three players who ever seem to have issues with the ump.  There is no sexism with Serena, she is a sore loser(who rarely loses).  

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

She was up 3-2 in the second set, had a point assessed, then a game assessed, and then was down 5-3, 1 game away from losing the match.

Certainly other things were involved.  But these are the finals of the U.S. Open.  It's like having four defensive holding calls on a last-minute drive in the Super Bowl.  

She lost three games with a single game penalty?

She cheated.  Her coach admitted so.  She lost her mind multiple times over it.  Tennis is partially about mental toughness which she lacked.  She went on to lie about it to the media.  She’s solely responsible for what happened.  All the excuses diminishes Osaka who was beating her already.  

 

[toshiba]

She lost three games with a single game penalty?

She cheated.  Her coach admitted so.  She lost her mind multiple times over it.  Tennis is partially about mental toughness which she lacked.  She went on to lie about it to the media.  She’s solely responsible for what happened.  All the excuses diminishes Osaka who was beating her already.  

The coach didn't admit she cheated, she only spoke of his actions.

 

[Henry Ford]

She lost three games with a single game penalty?

She cheated.  Her coach admitted so.  She lost her mind multiple times over it.  Tennis is partially about mental toughness which she lacked.  She went on to lie about it to the media.  She’s solely responsible for what happened.  All the excuses diminishes Osaka who was beating her already.  

Shoot, I must have mistyped.  Sorry about that.  I'll go edit it to say that she was up 3-2 in the second set, had a point assessed, then a game assessed, and then was down 5-3, 1 game away from losing the match.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Shoot, I must have mistyped.  Sorry about that.  I'll go edit it to say that she was up 3-2 in the second set, had a point assessed, then a game assessed, and then was down 5-3, 1 game away from losing the match.

So Osaka won two games plus the penalty to go 2-3 to 5-3?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

So instead of being a good sport, she blames the ref for her lose?

Poor sportsmanship, not sexism.

sportspersonship, you misogynistic lout.

 

[timschochet]

Tennis is partially about mental toughness which she lacked.  

It sure sounds like you watch a lot more tennis than I do, but I REALLY have trouble believing that Serena Williams lacks mental toughness.

 

[Da Guru]

It sure sounds like you watch a lot more tennis than I do, but I REALLY have trouble believing that Serena Williams lacks mental toughness.

Just seemed frustrated to be losing to the youngster and let her emotions get the best of her.

 

[Henry Ford]

So Osaka won two games plus the penalty to go 2-3 to 5-3?

So out of twelve points needed to win three games, Osaka won seven and was at match game?

 

[Don Quixote]

I don't think it was sexist. Both the ump and Serena could have acted better.  Worse things have been said without penalty, but Serena wasn't letting it drop either. Most players say their piece and move on, but Serena came back to her earlier complaint about the coaching penalty.  The ump could have tried defusing it -- maybe saying that he wasn't accusing her of cheating; it was her coach that cheated, and it's what the rules require.  If she still kept going on at that point, then the game penalty would be proper.

I think Osaka still would have won, but it felt like Serena was starting to find her game a bit there just before the meltdown.  

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it was sexist. Both the ump and Serena could have acted better.  Worse things have been said without penalty, but Serena wasn't letting it drop either. Most players say their piece and move on, but Serena came back to her earlier complaint about the coaching penalty.  The ump could have tried defusing it -- maybe saying that he wasn't accusing her of cheating; it was her coach that cheated, and it's what the rules require.  If she still kept going on at that point, then the game penalty would be proper.

I think Osaka still would have won, but it felt like Serena was starting to find her game a bit there just before the meltdown.  

She was out of line.  I just hate seeing an umpire make such a big difference.

 

[Joe Summer]

ANSWER THE QUESTION, JERK!!!!

 

[Sand]

I’ve regrettably said worse and I’ve never gotten a game penalty,” said Andy Roddick, a former US Open champion and world number one, posting on Twitter: “Worst refereeing I’ve ever seen ......the worst !!!”

Apples to apples?  I wonder if he was on his third strike at the time.

Good think McEnroe wasn't around today - he'd have gotten ejected from multiple matches.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Apples to apples?  I wonder if he was on his third strike at the time.

Good think McEnroe wasn't around today - he'd have gotten ejected from multiple matches.  

...if he were a woman.

 

[The General]

People bringing up McEnroe into this

That was 40 years ago.

 

[Henry Ford]

People bringing up McEnroe into this

That was 40 years ago.

Sure, but his third violation got him ejected from an Open.

 

[HellToupee]

People bringing up McEnroe into this

That was 40 years ago.

“Oh yeah, what about Jimmy Connors?”

 

[zoonation]

Rewatching it Serena comes off so bad.  I just can’t get behind her martyr play here.  

 

[Henry Ford]

“Oh yeah, what about Jimmy Connors?”

Can we at least move up to Agassi?

 

[The General]

Martina has this covered

Spot on IMO

Not sure if this ref has a short fuse but takes some balls to do that in a final. Been on vaca so haven't seen what she did and really don't even know how often these things are called. Serena is the best ever, been told this for years. She is also very aware of it and can be an ### on the court. Not sure if she is accepting any of the blame here but sounds like she should - she also may have a bit of a point - just doesn't sound so good when she had a little fit.

 

[The General]

Some of the clickbait stories on this are pretty ridiculous. Is a perfect topic for them - has elements of race, sexism, very known figure.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

So out of twelve points needed to win three games, Osaka won seven and was at match game?

1 point penalty plus one game is five points.  Was there more?  

She was still up a set and leading the match.  If Serena doesn’t throw a tantrum her chances of winning were probably 50% at best.  The penalties did not change the outcome 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It sure sounds like you watch a lot more tennis than I do, but I REALLY have trouble believing that Serena Williams lacks mental toughness.

Normally that’s an elite trait for her and a factor in her being the best ever.  But she lost her mind Saturday.  

 

[jonessed]

From the CBS article:

No matter how you think professional athletes should behave, Williams is right to be angry. Male players are often excused — celebrated, even — for putting their emotions on display in the heat of the moment. In fact, Ramos — the very same umpire who penalized Williams a game for calling him a "thief" and accusing him of lying — has tolerated similar, and arguably worse, outbursts from male players on numerous occasions.

At the 2016 French Open, Australian player Nick Kyrgios blew up at Ramos after he was given a warning for raising his voice at a ballboy. "That's bulls**t. Are you kidding?" Kyrgios shouted at the official. "Bulls**t, f***ing bulls**t." He was given neither a point penalty, nor a game penalty.

At the 2017 French Open, former world No. 1 Rafael Nadal threatened Ramos, "Give me the warnings you can, because you will not referee me anymore," he said. Nadal referenced his comments in a post-match press conference. No penalties were given.

While I find many of the arguments made here so far compelling, I find the above compelling as well. Which is why I remain undecided. 

Neither of those is as bad as calling an umpire/referee a liar and a thief.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Can we at least move up to Agassi?

He was defaulted twice. 

 

[jonessed]

She lost three games with a single game penalty?

She cheated.  Her coach admitted so.  She lost her mind multiple times over it.  Tennis is partially about mental toughness which she lacked.  She went on to lie about it to the media.  She’s solely responsible for what happened.  All the excuses diminishes Osaka who was beating her already.  

The only one that brought up Serena cheating was Serena.  It was a red herring from the start.  The coaching penalty had nothing to do with her.  It’s against the coach, not her.  Whether she saw it or not is irrelevant.

She did lie about the signal given and not seeing it though.

 

[toshiba]

From the CBS article:

No matter how you think professional athletes should behave, Williams is right to be angry. Male players are often excused — celebrated, even — for putting their emotions on display in the heat of the moment. In fact, Ramos — the very same umpire who penalized Williams a game for calling him a "thief" and accusing him of lying — has tolerated similar, and arguably worse, outbursts from male players on numerous occasions.

At the 2016 French Open, Australian player Nick Kyrgios blew up at Ramos after he was given a warning for raising his voice at a ballboy. "That's bulls**t. Are you kidding?" Kyrgios shouted at the official. "Bulls**t, f***ing bulls**t." He was given neither a point penalty, nor a game penalty.

At the 2017 French Open, former world No. 1 Rafael Nadal threatened Ramos, "Give me the warnings you can, because you will not referee me anymore," he said. Nadal referenced his comments in a post-match press conference. No penalties were given.

While I find many of the arguments made here so far compelling, I find the above compelling as well. Which is why I remain undecided. 

Neither of those is as bad as calling an umpire/referee a liar and a thief.

Good point, thief isn't vulgar. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

I’ve regrettably said worse and I’ve never gotten a game penalty,” said Andy Roddick, a former US Open champion and world number one, posting on Twitter: “Worst refereeing I’ve ever seen ......the worst !!!”

“I will admit I have said worse and not gotten penalized. Sad to mar a well played final that way.”

Did he say worse for the same amount of time and keep going back to it?

 

[toshiba]

I’ve regrettably said worse and I’ve never gotten a game penalty,” said Andy Roddick, a former US Open champion and world number one, posting on Twitter: “Worst refereeing I’ve ever seen ......the worst !!!”

“I will admit I have said worse and not gotten penalized. Sad to mar a well played final that way.”

Did he say worse for the same amount of time and keep going back to it?

You mean the word thief' ?  What exactly are you asking here?

 

[jonessed]

Good point, thief isn't vulgar. 

It’s not about the vulgarity, it’s about the integrity of the umpire/referee and the match.  He let her rant and rave for quite a while before she came out with the liar and a thief comment.  She was pushing the boundary and she knew it.  

 

[Henry Ford]

He was defaulted twice. 

Both times for using much more vulgar language than this.

 

[toshiba]

Good point, thief isn't vulgar. 

It’s not about the vulgarity, it’s about the integrity of the umpire/referee and the match.  He let her rant and rave for quite a while before she came out with the liar and a thief comment.  She was pushing the boundary and she knew it.  

Oh you were being sarcastic... 

 

[The General]

Has Williams admitted she was in the wrong or did she move straight to the sexism stuff?

 

[toshiba]

Has Williams admitted she was in the wrong or did she move straight to the sexism stuff?

I think she started with the sexism defense during her post game conference.  She was out of line and not a great person, but that does not mean that sexism wasn't a part of the issue.

 

[toshiba]

This is reminding me of the slutty dressed women who gets raped.  On one side you have people saying rape is wrong and on the other side people saying she is wrong to dress like that.
 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Both times for using much more vulgar language than this.

Probably why he got a stiffer penalty then huh? 

 

[toshiba]

Both times for using much more vulgar language than this.

Probably why he got a stiffer penalty then huh? 

Did he now...

 

[Sand]

People bringing up McEnroe into this

That was 40 years ago.

38.  Jeez, it's like you're trying to age me...

(He still had the best rants on the court).

 

[Don Quixote]

I think she started with the sexism defense during her post game conference.  She was out of line and not a great person, but that does not mean that sexism wasn't a part of the issue.

She started during the match.  After she was assessed the game penalty, she started telling the officials that it’s not fair and men say much worse.

 

[The General]

I think she started with the sexism defense during her post game conference.  She was out of line and not a great person, but that does not mean that sexism wasn't a part of the issue.

Perhaps. Really bad way to go about talking about it.

 

[toshiba]

I think she started with the sexism defense during her post game conference.  She was out of line and not a great person, but that does not mean that sexism wasn't a part of the issue.

She started during the match.  After she was assessed the game penalty, she started telling the officials that it’s not fair and men say much worse.

You are correct, it started very early and she easily was looking for an excuse.  That doesn't mean the excuse was incorrect.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Did he now...

Yes. He did. 

 

[toshiba]

I think she started with the sexism defense during her post game conference.  She was out of line and not a great person, but that does not mean that sexism wasn't a part of the issue.

Perhaps. Really bad way to go about talking about it.

Agreed, it is vile and it sickens me when people use these events to further their own selfishness.  But that doesn't mean that she was wrong.

 

[Sand]

This is reminding me of the slutty dressed women who gets raped.  On one side you have people saying rape is wrong and on the other side people saying she is wrong to dress like that.

I'd put it more like she came into this forum and started play acting 50 Shades of Grey.

She earned her timeouts.

 

[toshiba]

Did he now...

Yes. He did. 

ok