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Serena and Sexism (1 Viewer)

timschochet

Footballguy
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/09/us/serena-williams-sexism-tennis-controversy/index.html

At a news conference following her loss, Williams said she's seen male players call other umpires "several things."

"I'm here fighting for women's rights and for women's equality and for all kinds of stuff. For me to say 'thief' and for him to take a game, it made me feel like it was a sexist remark," she said.

"He's never taken a game from a man because they said 'thief.' For me it blows my mind. But I'm going to continue to fight for women," Williams said.

Billie Jean King, a tennis legend and equal rights advocate, agreed with Williams.

"When a woman is emotional, she's "hysterical" and she's penalized for it. When a man does the same, he's "outspoken" & and there are no repercussions. Thank you, Serena Williams, for calling out this double standard. More voices are needed to do the same," King tweeted.

Agree with Billie Jean? A lot of people do.

 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
No.  In my experience, this is a lazy way of shielding women jerks from having their jerkiness criticized.  I don't watch tennis normally, but I did catch the video of Serena's meltdown on Youtube, and I have a hard time imagining that we would be condoning that sort of self-pitying outburst from a male athlete.

 

zoonation

Footballguy
I’m on the other side of this one.  I thought she embarrassed herself and stole Osaka’s moment in the spotlight.  

Of course women should not be treated differently than men.  But she deserved everyone of those penalties based on her petulant conduct.  

Guy on CNN just listed off 5-6 men players who have been sanctioned in the same way for similar abusive conduct. 

 

toshiba

Footballguy
My question would be does this official have any history of being treated this way by male tennis players and how did he react?

 

timschochet

Footballguy
No.  In my experience, this is a lazy way of shielding women jerks from having their jerkiness criticized.  I don't watch tennis normally, but I did catch the video of Serena's meltdown on Youtube, and I have a hard time imagining that we would be condoning that sort of self-pitying outburst from a male athlete.
Really? Men are outraged all the time. Even yesterday I watched coaches and players screaming at the refs.  I used to watch Kobe Bryant whine and glare murderously every time he either did or did not get a call, and that went on for years. 

 

Skoo

Footballguy
Really? Men are outraged all the time. Even yesterday I watched coaches and players screaming at the refs.  I used to watch Kobe Bryant whine and glare murderously every time he either did or did not get a call, and that went on for years. 
I don't watch Tennis so I have no frame of reference on how the men are treated, that said you can't compare it with other sports. Especially one where there are no women. (in the NBA, anyway)

 

timschochet

Footballguy
I don't watch Tennis so I have no frame of reference on how the men are treated, that said you can't compare it with other sports. Especially one where there are no women. (in the NBA, anyway)
I was simply responding to Ivan's statement:

I have a hard time imagining that we would be condoning that sort of self-pitying outburst from a male athlete.

I don't believe that's true.

 

fantasycurse42

Footballguy Jr.
Are you serious dude? 

Serena acted like a jerk, for a man or a woman (even a child). She could be the greatest female tennis player ever, and ruined what should've been a great moment for someone who idolized her growing up. She did not act professionally - even if Lebron James did something like this, you sure as #### better believe he would be criticized just the same (if not worse).

Well, it wasn't just her childish behavior, the crowd at Arthur Ashe stadium was extremely disrespectful too. This was a defining moment for Osaka, and the behavior across the board was disgusting. 

 

timschochet

Footballguy
Are you serious dude? 
I'm serious in raising the question, because others are raising it all over the place. I don't know the answer to the question, which is why I raised it.

I do believe, strongly, that women are often subject to different, unfair standards than men are in all walks of life, including athletics. 

 
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parasaurolophus

Footballguy
Really? Men are outraged all the time. Even yesterday I watched coaches and players screaming at the refs.  I used to watch Kobe Bryant whine and glare murderously every time he either did or did not get a call, and that went on for years. 
Basketball players get technicals all the time for whining at the officials. 

Baseball Players get thrown out of games for arguing balls and strikes.

Men's tennis players get warned for it as well. Points have been deducted. Matches have been defaulted. Yes, even in majors.

Serena just wouldnt stop. First she lied. Then she just kept going on and on. 

 

fantasycurse42

Footballguy Jr.
I'm serious in raising the question, because others are raising it all over the place. I don't know the answer to the question, which is why I raised it.

I do believe, strongly, that women are often subject to different, unfair standards than men are in all walks of life, including athletics. 
Her behavior was childish at best, she had an epic meltdown. For someone that good, she should've been more gracious in defeat. She tried to make up for it during the post match speech, but the damage had been done by that point, IMO. 

 

fantasycurse42

Footballguy Jr.
Basketball players get technicals all the time for whining at the officials. 

Baseball Players get thrown out of games for arguing balls and strikes.

Men's tennis players get warned for it as well. Points have been deducted. Matches have been defaulted. Yes, even in majors.

Serena just wouldnt stop. First she lied. Then she just kept going on and on. 
She was demanding an apology, calling the ref a thief, over and over and over and over. 

What moron defends this behavior? 

 

Sinn Fein

Footballguy
I'm serious in raising the question, because others are raising it all over the place. I don't know the answer to the question, which is why I raised it.

I do believe, strongly, that women are often subject to different, unfair standards than men are in all walks of life, including athletics. 
I think coaching should be allowed in tennis.

I think Serena was treated appropriately given her actions.

Warning on the coaching - kind of like calling a touch foul, but it was a violation, the coach admitted as much on ESPN after the match, and it was simply a warning.  Change the rule.

Broken racquet - nothing sexist about this - she broke her racquet - 2nd violation.  Whether she agreed with the first violation or not - she knew where she stood.  She broke her racquet - its a violation man or woman.

Verbal abuse - Serena abused the chair umpire.  Period.  She let the first two violations get to her, and would not shut up.  She lost control, not the chair umpire.

She was whining afterwards, and she is still whining.  Let it go.

 

Rove!

Footballguy
Tim may have a point here

when McEnroe acted like an ### he was reviled....now when Serena does it, people (I.e. Tim) are bending over backwards to make excuses.  Maybe there is an element of sexism there...

 

toshiba

Footballguy
Basketball players get technicals all the time for whining at the officials. 

Baseball Players get thrown out of games for arguing balls and strikes.

Men's tennis players get warned for it as well. Points have been deducted. Matches have been defaulted. Yes, even in majors.

Serena just wouldnt stop. First she lied. Then she just kept going on and on. 
She was demanding an apology, calling the ref a thief, over and over and over and over. 

What moron defends this behavior? 
You seems awfully quick to call someone a moron who doesn't share your expect view in something that is easily a judgement call.

 

Wrigley

Footballguy
So instead of being a good sport, she blames the ref for her lose?

Poor sportsmanship, not sexism.

 

timschochet

Footballguy
Tim may have a point here
FTR, I have not offered an opinion. I'm actually undecided on this one (though the arguments made so far, against Serena's behavior, are rather compelling to me.) I started this thread after I read Billie Jean King's comments and heard several other people on CNN agree with her. So I thought it was worthy of discussion. But in this particular case I don't personally have any axe to grind. 

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
That is carrying it too far imo.

I think she did not see the coaching, or consider it to be coaching.  I don't think she lied about it.

It was still a coaching violation.
She said he gave her a thumbs up just to giver a c'mon. 

He did not do that. She fabrciated it.

 

Jobber

Footballguy
Williams is trying to defect her blatant CHEATING by pulling the sexist card. She is showing her ### here and should be ashamed of herself.

 

fantasycurse42

Footballguy Jr.
Nice try, what I am suggesting is that we examine the claims made by people before we start calling them names.
Well, if this specific situation was something behind closed doors or needed to be investigated, you would have a point. Her behavior was on full display, and this conversation is just a deflection of that. 

 

toshiba

Footballguy
Nice try, what I am suggesting is that we examine the claims made by people before we start calling them names.
Well, if this specific situation was something behind closed doors or needed to be investigated, you would have a point. Her behavior was on full display, and this conversation is just a deflection of that. 
Well you enjoy calling people names, seems to be your thing.

 

toshiba

Footballguy
Well you enjoy calling people names, seems to be your thing.
People are pretty stupid. This discussion is case and point, just a shiny object in the other direction, wait who was acting childish? 
Is it possible that she was out of line yet the punishment was tougher than it would have been if she was a male?  Both points can coexist.  That is worthy of considering and seeing what history the umpire has with discipline like this.   It may turn out that he does things like this all the time and it is within his character, but it is worth examine beyond the raw emotion so many people have.

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
I'm serious in raising the question, because others are raising it all over the place. I don't know the answer to the question, which is why I raised it.

I do believe, strongly, that women are often subject to different, unfair standards than men are in all walks of life, including athletics. 
Not sure what the unfair standards are in athletics you speak of, but they are certainly subjected to different treatment. That should be expected. They are in fact different and in most circumstances actually play a different form of the sport. Tennis is fewer sets and you can receive coaching on the court once per set. Volleyball has lower nets. Basketball has a smaller ball. Golf has shorter distances. 

Most of those differences are actually more sexist than anything else we see. 

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
I think coaching should be allowed in tennis.
I waffle on this. I kind of like the idea of coaching not being allowed. It is unique. But then I always think about how I wish soccer allowed substitutions and I know plenty of soccer players and fans think it is something unique and traditional to their sport and would never want it changed. So I can see their point in wanting the rule changed in tennis.

 

Dickies

Footballguy
I thought Serena’s display was an embarrassment and don’t see how anyone can defend it.  We see players/coaches penalized and ejected all the time for arguing with the officials, but in tennis it’s an individual sport where you can clearly see and hear everything they do unlike a football head coach screaming at the refs. Throwing tantrums in tennis is going to present much differently than other sports, but I don’t think being male or female has anything to do with it. 

 

toshiba

Footballguy
I thought Serena’s display was an embarrassment and don’t see how anyone can defend it.  We see players/coaches penalized and ejected all the time for arguing with the officials, but in tennis it’s an individual sport where you can clearly see and hear everything they do unlike a football head coach screaming at the refs. Throwing tantrums in tennis is going to present much differently than other sports, but I don’t think being male or female has anything to do with it. 
The question though remains, does this umpire penalize men the same when they call him a non-vulgar name?

 

fantasycurse42

Footballguy Jr.
Is it possible that she was out of line yet the punishment was tougher than it would have been if she was a male?  Both points can coexist.  That is worthy of considering and seeing what history the umpire has with discipline like this.   It may turn out that he does things like this all the time and it is within his character, but it is worth examine beyond the raw emotion so many people have.
She isn't a first time offender here. She has a history of treating refs/linesman with serious disrespect. That doesn't take away her ability, which has made her one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) in her sport. 

With that being said, the lines some morons draw in the sand, are absolutely the wrong ones, this is a perfect example. She received a violation (which her coach admitted), she broke her racquet and received another. Following that, here is her quote (and there was a lot more, but just for context):

“You will never, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You’re the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? Say it! Say you’re sorry!”  “You’re a thief, too.”
Sexist? I can't think of a sport in the world outside of the WWE where you can say something like that to an official and there isn't a severe punishment. If Federer said something like this (which I don't think he ever would), I'd expect a similar punishment, and he has zero history. 

Not even sure what this discussion is about, I'll see myself out, so dumb. 

 

toshiba

Footballguy
Is it possible that she was out of line yet the punishment was tougher than it would have been if she was a male?  Both points can coexist.  That is worthy of considering and seeing what history the umpire has with discipline like this.   It may turn out that he does things like this all the time and it is within his character, but it is worth examine beyond the raw emotion so many people have.
She isn't a first time offender here. She has a history of treating refs/linesman with serious disrespect. That doesn't take away her ability, which has made her one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) in her sport. 

With that being said, the lines some morons draw in the sand, are absolutely the wrong ones, this is a perfect example. She received a violation (which her coach admitted), she broke her racquet and received another. Following that, here is her quote (and there was a lot more, but just for context):

“You will never, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You’re the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? Say it! Say you’re sorry!”  “You’re a thief, too.”
Sexist? I can't think of a sport in the world outside of the WWE where you can say something like that to an official and there isn't a severe punishment. If Federer said something like this (which I don't think he ever would), I'd expect a similar punishment, and he has zero history. 

Not even sure what this discussion is about, I'll see myself out, so dumb. 


Roger Federer loses his cool, argument with umpire US Open 2009 he was vulgar to an umpire: $1,500 fine and no loss of point or warning.

I will keep searching what I can find in history

 
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toshiba

Footballguy
I’ve regrettably said worse and I’ve never gotten a game penalty,” said Andy Roddick, a former US Open champion and world number one, posting on Twitter: “Worst refereeing I’ve ever seen ......the worst !!!”

“I will admit I have said worse and not gotten penalized. Sad to mar a well played final that way.”

 
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timschochet

Footballguy
Not even sure what this discussion is about, I'll see myself out, so dumb. 
Here's what it's about. In addition to the OP:

WTA agrees with Serena about sexism:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45468290

CBS news: what happened to Serena is "the grossest example of sexism yet."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/serena-williams-u-s-open-loss-may-be-the-grossest-example-of-sports-sexism-yet/

NBC News: Serena Williams' penalties spark debate about sexism:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/serena-williams-u-s-open-penalties-spark-debate-over-sexism-n907921

So you can see, a whole lot of people really do care about this. 

 

Henry Ford

Footballguy
No.  In my experience, this is a lazy way of shielding women jerks from having their jerkiness criticized.  I don't watch tennis normally, but I did catch the video of Serena's meltdown on Youtube

, and I have a hard time imagining that we would be condoning that sort of self-pitying outburst from a male athlete.
Condoning is one thing.  Penalizing the player to the point of deciding the match is another.

I'll never forget McEnroe screaming "You are an abortion!" at a chair ump.

 

timschochet

Footballguy
From the CBS article:

No matter how you think professional athletes should behave, Williams is right to be angry. Male players are often excused — celebrated, even — for putting their emotions on display in the heat of the moment. In fact, Ramos — the very same umpire who penalized Williams a game for calling him a "thief" and accusing him of lying — has tolerated similar, and arguably worse, outbursts from male players on numerous occasions.

At the 2016 French Open, Australian player Nick Kyrgios blew up at Ramos after he was given a warning for raising his voice at a ballboy. "That's bulls**t. Are you kidding?" Kyrgios shouted at the official. "Bulls**t, f***ing bulls**t." He was given neither a point penalty, nor a game penalty.

At the 2017 French Open, former world No. 1 Rafael Nadal threatened Ramos, "Give me the warnings you can, because you will not referee me anymore," he said. Nadal referenced his comments in a post-match press conference. No penalties were given.

While I find many of the arguments made here so far compelling, I find the above compelling as well. Which is why I remain undecided. 

 

toshiba

Footballguy
From the CBS article:

No matter how you think professional athletes should behave, Williams is right to be angry. Male players are often excused — celebrated, even — for putting their emotions on display in the heat of the moment. In fact, Ramos — the very same umpire who penalized Williams a game for calling him a "thief" and accusing him of lying — has tolerated similar, and arguably worse, outbursts from male players on numerous occasions.

At the 2016 French Open, Australian player Nick Kyrgios blew up at Ramos after he was given a warning for raising his voice at a ballboy. "That's bulls**t. Are you kidding?" Kyrgios shouted at the official. "Bulls**t, f***ing bulls**t." He was given neither a point penalty, nor a game penalty.

At the 2017 French Open, former world No. 1 Rafael Nadal threatened Ramos, "Give me the warnings you can, because you will not referee me anymore," he said. Nadal referenced his comments in a post-match press conference. No penalties were given.

While I find many of the arguments made here so far compelling, I find the above compelling as well. Which is why I remain undecided. 


I feel the same, I am listening to the discussion and not calling people who disagree with me names like some have resorted to.

 

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/09/us/serena-williams-sexism-tennis-controversy/index.html

At a news conference following her loss, Williams said she's seen male players call other umpires "several things."

"I'm here fighting for women's rights and for women's equality and for all kinds of stuff. For me to say 'thief' and for him to take a game, it made me feel like it was a sexist remark," she said.

"He's never taken a game from a man because they said 'thief.' For me it blows my mind. But I'm going to continue to fight for women," Williams said.

Billie Jean King, a tennis legend and equal rights advocate, agreed with Williams.

"When a woman is emotional, she's "hysterical" and she's penalized for it. When a man does the same, he's "outspoken" & and there are no repercussions. Thank you, Serena Williams, for calling out this double standard. More voices are needed to do the same," King tweeted.

Agree with Billie Jean? A lot of people do.
I have always liked Serena but she was going to lose anyway and seemed to be looking for a scapegoat. Ramos is known to be a stickler about the rules and the ruling was correct.  

The chair umpire whom Serena Williams called a “thief” in the women’s singles final at the United States Open on Saturday has long been willing to enforce the rules by the book with the game’s biggest stars, male and female.

The umpire, Carlos Ramos, a 47-year-old from Portugal, was at the center of controversy in the match, drawing Williams’s ire in the second set of her 6-2, 6-4 loss to Naomi Osaka.

Ramos gave Williams three code-of-conduct violations — for illegal coaching, abusing a racket and verbally abusing an official, the last of which resulted in Osaka being awarded a game late in the second set.

 
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