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Setting the Record Straight on Johnny Manziel (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sigmund Bloom
- Start date
amnesiac
beer is good
Bloom i respect your opinion more than anyone else on this site.
but i have the feeling you're going to regret this sentence:
"Vick basically represents Manziels floor in the NFL."
admittedly, i am very negative on Manziel's talents translating to the NFL, but that is a bold statement.
but i have the feeling you're going to regret this sentence:
"Vick basically represents Manziels floor in the NFL."
admittedly, i am very negative on Manziel's talents translating to the NFL, but that is a bold statement.
jurb26
Footballguy
Didn't read the article but that is a flat out crazy statement.
Vick had elite speed, Manziel has elite quickness/escapability. Manziel probably already has better feel as a passer both inside and outside of the pocket than Vick has ever had. Vick got hurt a ton and never learned to protect himself. He never evolved as a pocket passer or honed his instincts. These are the gloom and doom predictions for Manziel. Vick basically remained the same QB he was in college in the pros, except for 2010 (and look what happened when his feel as a pocket passer improved). Vick never really got more responsible with the ball or decision-making. Again, these are the main downside predictions for Manziel.
jurb26
Footballguy
Vick had better quickness an escapability than Manziel could ever dream of. Not sure I follow that part. Plus, Manziel can make throws in the pocket sure. The problem I have is he needs an almost total clean pocket in order to do it. He bails on any traffic in the pocket and his feet get happy. In the NFL, navigating crowded pockets is essential to being a good QB. You say a large myth about him is Evens made him. I've never thought that for a second. I've always thought the A&M oline made both of them. That oline was incredible. It covered a ton of warts IMO.
Manziel had the 2nd best 3cone and short shuttle times (quickness measures) at the combine for a QB in the last 15 years. Watch the tape, Manziel is almost never tackled by the first free rusher. Manziel can make throws from tight pockets with bodies around him when he can't step into throws. Manziel does step up in the pocket at times, but he does not get "happy feet" - he's isn't nervous or flustered, he just very correctly steers the play to where he can win. Ben Roethlisberger has done this for his whole career. Manziel can absolutely navigate crowded pockets. If Manziel is constantly leaving the pocket, how did the OL make him? Sounds like he could have functioned without good pass blocking, no? It has been hard to evaluate Joeckel and Matthews as pass blockers because very good pass rushers like Mingo would play contain all day against Manziel.
amnesiac
beer is good
Manziel doesn't have Roethlisburger's frame, or Vick's speed.
the comparisons don't seem appropriate to me.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
The term 'elite' is what's wearing on me the most. Maybe we have short-term memories but when Vick was at VaTech he had elite speed and elite arm-strength. Those translate much better to the NFL then elite quickness and escapability for a QB that's even smaller then Vick IMO. I also believe it's very debatable whether or not his quickness and escapability translate to the NFL as elite. With Vick there was no doubt he would enter the league as one of the fastest QB's (ever) and have one of the strongest arms.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
50% Wilson / 50% Romo. Hes going to make great plays and then hes going to make bonehead game killers. I know Wilson quieted the short/small QB argument and even though Manziel weighed 207, hes got to be the frailiest 207 I've seen. Wilson weighs the same but his body looks much stronger.
Manziel is not rocked up, but he's certainly not frail. at least 3 RBs at the combine had almost identical ht/wt
The Fantasy Chef
Footballguy
He has an above grade at most of the skills you look for in a quarterback. What I would like to see is how he handles an nfl defense that can keep him isolated from escape ing the pocket. If he proves that he can consistently handle the audibles and blitz coverage hell see at a faster pace in the NFL we are probably looking at a special player.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Are you sure? I know that Tim Tebow had a 6.66 s 3-cone and 4.18 s short shuttle. Tim Tebow escapabilty looked great behind the Denver's line. Not so great behind the Jet's line.Sigmund Bloom said:
I really don't know if Johnny has enough ability to compensate for a bad Oline. One thing I do know is he will have to change his reckless running style because he is built like Pat White.
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massraider
Footballguy
The thing I keep thinking is that if there was ever a time to be an undersized, scrambling QB, now is the time.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Manziel isn't as fast as Vick, but he has a similar rare knack for being able to make a defensive performance look like a Three Stooges movie.
Without pads on, Manziel's shoulders did look narrow. Since Vick came up, he isn't exactly hulking, and may have been approximately the same dimensions at his combine.
I agree with the premise that Vick by his own admission wasn't a student of the game and coasted on his talent until the wake up call (didn't actualize all his potential), and that if Manziel works harder at his craft (fulfills more of his potential), that could be a kind of equalizer in his respective projection, though to what degree I'm not sure.
* It probably would be a good idea to recalibrate his instincts to the extent it is possible and be more selective in picking his shots running beyond the LOS, scrambling with the intent of pass first and running only if necessary (he reportedly ran with receivers open a lot when he didn't need to). Be more of a point guard and distribute the ball (extending the play what makes Wilson so dangerous) and he can be Tiny Archibald in cleats.
Without pads on, Manziel's shoulders did look narrow. Since Vick came up, he isn't exactly hulking, and may have been approximately the same dimensions at his combine.
I agree with the premise that Vick by his own admission wasn't a student of the game and coasted on his talent until the wake up call (didn't actualize all his potential), and that if Manziel works harder at his craft (fulfills more of his potential), that could be a kind of equalizer in his respective projection, though to what degree I'm not sure.
* It probably would be a good idea to recalibrate his instincts to the extent it is possible and be more selective in picking his shots running beyond the LOS, scrambling with the intent of pass first and running only if necessary (he reportedly ran with receivers open a lot when he didn't need to). Be more of a point guard and distribute the ball (extending the play what makes Wilson so dangerous) and he can be Tiny Archibald in cleats.
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LarryAllen'sJockstrap
Footballguy
Height and weight based on combine measurements, Manziel is exactly .27 inches shorter and 5 pounds less than Drew Brees. They also have/had very similar frames coming out of college.
Not saying = Brees, just pointing out he' stacks up physically with one of the best QBs out there and is probably more athletic and faster.
Not saying = Brees, just pointing out he' stacks up physically with one of the best QBs out there and is probably more athletic and faster.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Good point. Also maybe worth pointing out Brees, while mobile, doesn't look to run nearly as much as even Wilson, obviously. Though I think Wilson strikes an excellent balance and is smart about when and how he runs. I wouldn't want to put a boot on Manziel, his running ability is part of what makes him special, but Wilson would be an outstanding role model for his skill set and game.
Brees and Wilson appear to throw with greater velocity and accuracy, but I think Manziel's arm is definitely good enough. He can't drive the ball downfield and outside the hashes like Stafford, but few can. Manziel's arm strength isn't like post-torn rotator cuff Pennington.
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5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
Doesn't come close to Brees in accuracy, touch, release or especially mechanics though. And that, in my mind, is what makes Brees great. He's short and sort of small, but he has a smooth, repeatable, fast motion to unload the ball from the pocket.
Mechanics are something that I think a lot of people don't give Brees enough credit for, actually. He's really like a freaking robot. Every throw looks damn near identical and he gets rid of the ball quick/clean. The guy just really understands exactly how to control his body's kinetic chain. Manziel's motion isn't that clean to me, and he doesn't have a very high release point. That's going to be a problem on certain routes for a guy built like a tall lawn elf.
I don't think Manziel totally sucks, but I also don't think I'll be buying.
Manziel still looked to pass first when he broke the pocket, but he did seem to be more comfortable throwing on the move than in the pocket if he exhausted his reads
cstu
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I know this is kind of stupid, but didn't Vick run a 4.25?
I had friends at a lily-white boarding school run a 4.68.
That's kind of a big difference if we're factoring in his impact in the running game. Vick was the best college football player that I -- an admittedly less-than-casual college football fan -- have ever seen.
I don't hate Johnny Football, this just seems like something to bring up. People are glossing over this.
eta* Vick apparently ran a 4.33
I had friends at a lily-white boarding school run a 4.68.
That's kind of a big difference if we're factoring in his impact in the running game. Vick was the best college football player that I -- an admittedly less-than-casual college football fan -- have ever seen.
I don't hate Johnny Football, this just seems like something to bring up. People are glossing over this.
eta* Vick apparently ran a 4.33
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he plays in the eye of the storm. his composure is ridiculous, this is a good example - bullets are flying around him and he still calmly keeps eyes downfield and find and hits receiver.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
When I see that play I see a Q.B. who gets prematurely spooked out of a working pocket, a Q.B. who did not have his eyes downfield and who did not look around. He then runs into his own guy trying to replicate the Sanchez butt fumble and nearly does. Yeah, in the end it worked out because Alabama completely dropped coverage, but that play would not give me confidence in the guy. There are other plays that might, but not that one.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Mayock was on local radio yesterday and said that was his big flaw. He doesn't step up in the pocket but runs out the back, even with open receivers. Would need to correct that to succeed in the nfl.
definitely has a habit of doing this, but it is not the only strategy he has to escape the pocket. its also not a death knell in NFL. Romo still does it
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Here is a similar play vs. Duke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2mjL00RFJ10#t=563 Watching plays like this, I never know how much credit I am suppose to give to Johnny Football and how much credit I should give to excellent blocking of the Oline. I am really torn on him. Somedays I think he is going to defy the odds and be an excellent NFL QB and other days I think he is going to get drafted too high.
cstu
Footballguy
Vick was Reggie Bush who could throw like Tebow. I thought he would improve as a passer in the NFL but never did.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
I can't get past his footwork/mechanics and arm strength. I just see Doug Flutie.
cstu
Footballguy
Flutie only completed 53% of his passes in college, Manziel completed 69%.
However flawed his mechanics are, he's able to throw the ball accurately.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
This is what I also see.
amnesiac
beer is good
i love Gil, but he also compared Colt McCoy to Montana.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
IMO, he gets the ball down the field just fine but he does not make it look effortless. He has to torque his entire body to make those throws. Vick's arm, on the other hand, is soo strong he makes throwing look effortless.
Let me preface this by saying that I have a tremendous amount of respect for the incredible work that Bloom does. We are lucky as fbg readers to access his insights. However, I patently diasgree with the assessment here.
I personally agree with Ron Jaworski's assessment of Manziel. I don't feel that Manziel had any elite skills, other than improvisational aptitude. I think he's going to take an absolute beating in the NFL and I don't envision a long career. He's slight of build and will not be able to escape like he did in college. He will absorb lots of violent hits and his body will break down. Also, he's a party guy who doesn't seem focused and strikes me as a stubborn player who won't respond to coaching. I would not take him anywhere near the top of the first round but realize he's a lock for the top 10. I think this indictates the desperation teams feel to have a top QB more than it reflects Manziel's NFL translatabilty to the pro game.
I feel he will be fun to watch but I don't foresee a long career.
I personally agree with Ron Jaworski's assessment of Manziel. I don't feel that Manziel had any elite skills, other than improvisational aptitude. I think he's going to take an absolute beating in the NFL and I don't envision a long career. He's slight of build and will not be able to escape like he did in college. He will absorb lots of violent hits and his body will break down. Also, he's a party guy who doesn't seem focused and strikes me as a stubborn player who won't respond to coaching. I would not take him anywhere near the top of the first round but realize he's a lock for the top 10. I think this indictates the desperation teams feel to have a top QB more than it reflects Manziel's NFL translatabilty to the pro game.
I feel he will be fun to watch but I don't foresee a long career.
cstu
Footballguy
If he has a great running game and a guy who can turn 5 yard passes into TD's - like say the Vikings with AP and Patterson - I think he can do well.
The injury thing is a concern with any running QB, especially one not built like Cam.
cstu
Footballguy
I've talked to multiple people who would know that say the character stuff on manziel is way overblown. Manziel has actually improved a lot from freshman to sophomore year and was very coachable in his second year as the starter. One NFL source told me A&M was getting a little fed up w him after Heisman stuff, but after this year they did not want him to leave.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I watched the whole clip. He is lazy and slow in his drop backs. On deep balls he floats them even when he completely steps into the throw demonstrating a poor arm, and the balls were not really deep. He misses spotting wide open receivers. He throws ducks into coverage. On short passes on crossing routes he is late and behind the receiver. On wide receiver screens the receivers had to reposition themselves to accept the throw, moving backward when they should have been ready to explode forward. Some plays he telegraphs that he is going to run by his shoulder position, not having his right shoulder back in a throwing position. On the play you highlight he leaves the pocket early, and you could tell he was going to by his shoulders, he leaps into his own guy without a plan and is, for him, fortunately, knocked back to his feet so he can make a play on a wide open guy on the broken play. I agree with you. I see nothing in his game except guts and some shiftiness. Also I note that when he is changing directions he waives the ball around well away from his body inviting getting stripped of the ball. I most definitely do not see the second coming of Russel Wilson here. I see a player who is a huge project at best with limited upside.
All that said I have no idea what I am talking about. I am a casual fan with no expertise. Those who disagree with my observations can simply ignore them, they do not have to attack them, or me, as I will cede the field to their greater expertise or passion.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I don't think we can really make that statement at Tebow with the Jets. They never used him as a QB. They used him very sparingly even lined up as a QB and when they did he almost always ran a draw play up the middle.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Fair enough.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
You go, Bloom! 
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I've been saying for a while now he reminds me of favre and flutie.
Neither was supposed to be any good. So let me twist this and throw it back to you- Why were they? and how would any of that apply to Manziel?
5Rings
Lurker
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