Star Wars III SPOILERS discussion thread (1 Viewer)

[BlueOnion]

How come Han Solo has never heard of the Force when he must have been a young teenager during the Clone Wars? And didn't Han Solo's good friend Chewbacca actually have a close relationship with the greatest Jedi ever in Yoda?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Anyone here seen the Clone Wars DVDs? What do you think of them?

I only saw the first season (picked up the 2nd season last night) but I thought it was pretty good stuff.

We have the first and the second is going to my son for Christmas.I liked them, for the most part. I especially like the Windu and Anakin vs Ventress episodes.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

How come Han Solo has never heard of the Force when he must have been a young teenager during the Clone Wars? And didn't Han Solo's good friend Chewbacca actually have a close relationship with the greatest Jedi ever in Yoda?

He's heard of it. He just doesn' believe in it.

 

[Gatorman]

Some interesting stuff...1) I do not believe that Sidious created anakin. His line of "we will learn to make life together" after he bacomes vader speaks that the emperor does not have the knowledge at that moment. I guess the book validates this, but I put no stock in the SW books.2) Han Solo and the force. The Jedi were so few that it is not a big deal to think that 20 years later people will not believe in them. Look at how Fidel Castro or The USSR made their leaders or co-revolutionaries "disappear" and then you'll understand how this could happen over a whole galaxy. The Emperor had plenty of time to rewrite history, and figure, what, less than .001% of the population of the SWG ever had any contact with a Jedi?I was never a big fan of the time continuity of Lucas' work. The fact is that the whole series works it way through about 50 years time at most, but some of the movies themselves take about a week of real time to happen. Luke retuns from saving the emperor on monday, on wednesday he becomes part of the council, and by friday he is pledging loyalty to the emperor. There is no sense of the passage of time in these movies (when they are going on) to really give any breadth to what is happenning./rant

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Some interesting stuff...

1) I do not believe that Sidious created anakin.  His line of "we will learn to make life together" after he bacomes vader speaks that the emperor does not have the knowledge at that moment.  I guess the book validates this, but I put no stock in the SW books.

He's lying to Anakin. The only reason he has Anakin's allegiance is because Anakin believes he has the knowledge he wants. Palpatine knows that if he were to ever tell Anakin the secret, Anakin would kill him as Plapatine did his master, Plagius.So, he does have the knowledge, but is unwilling to share it.

 

[Gatorman]

Some interesting stuff...

1) I do not believe that Sidious created anakin.  His line of "we will learn to make life together" after he bacomes vader speaks that the emperor does not have the knowledge at that moment.  I guess the book validates this, but I put no stock in the SW books.

He's lying to Anakin. The only reason he has Anakin's allegiance is because Anakin believes he has the knowledge he wants. Palpatine knows that if he were to ever tell Anakin the secret, Anakin would kill him as Plapatine did his master, Plagius.So, he does have the knowledge, but is unwilling to share it.

Methinks too much of this is intelligent people fixing the holes in lucas' work. Anakin may have been created by a sith lord, but considering how close the sith were to not having him as part of the process seems to smack of a lot of blind luck...

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Some interesting stuff...

1) I do not believe that Sidious created anakin.  His line of "we will learn to make life together" after he bacomes vader speaks that the emperor does not have the knowledge at that moment.  I guess the book validates this, but I put no stock in the SW books.

He's lying to Anakin. The only reason he has Anakin's allegiance is because Anakin believes he has the knowledge he wants. Palpatine knows that if he were to ever tell Anakin the secret, Anakin would kill him as Plapatine did his master, Plagius.So, he does have the knowledge, but is unwilling to share it.

Methinks too much of this is intelligent people fixing the holes in lucas' work. Anakin may have been created by a sith lord, but considering how close the sith were to not having him as part of the process seems to smack of a lot of blind luck...

It's calculated risks the Emperor takes. How about his plan going obviously awry when the Jedi "rescue" him from Grievous only to find himself on half of an out of control, burning, ship with a real danger of not surviving? I doubt that was part of the plan.

 

[shake zula]

The second clone wars dvd was great. It filled alot of gaps, Anakin skipping the trials, his knighthood, his exp. in the cave. Very good, I think even better than the 1st.

 

[thesurfshop19]

The second clone wars dvd was great. It filled alot of gaps, Anakin skipping the trials, his knighthood, his exp. in the cave. Very good, I think even better than the 1st.

Good to hear, I guess I'll check it out tonight!Sure makes you wonder, though, how much of Phantom and Clones could have been combined into 1 movie, with the cartoons serving as the source for #2. A ton of people have already pointed that out, though ... not an original thought from me in any regard.

 

[shake zula]

The second clone wars dvd was great. It filled alot of gaps, Anakin skipping the trials, his knighthood, his exp. in the cave. Very good, I think even better than the 1st.

Good to hear, I guess I'll check it out tonight!Sure makes you wonder, though, how much of Phantom and Clones could have been combined into 1 movie, with the cartoons serving as the source for #2. A ton of people have already pointed that out, though ... not an original thought from me in any regard.

I think they could have definitly done something along those lines, and had the 3 of the prequals delve more into what happened right after the clones wars. Like the new book that came out "The rise of darth Vader"

 

[BlueOnion]

Some interesting stuff...

1) I do not believe that Sidious created anakin.  His line of "we will learn to make life together" after he bacomes vader speaks that the emperor does not have the knowledge at that moment.  I guess the book validates this, but I put no stock in the SW books.

He's lying to Anakin. The only reason he has Anakin's allegiance is because Anakin believes he has the knowledge he wants. Palpatine knows that if he were to ever tell Anakin the secret, Anakin would kill him as Plapatine did his master, Plagius.So, he does have the knowledge, but is unwilling to share it.

Methinks too much of this is intelligent people fixing the holes in lucas' work. Anakin may have been created by a sith lord, but considering how close the sith were to not having him as part of the process seems to smack of a lot of blind luck...

I think it only seems like a reach when we consider what we actually saw in the movies. Phantom ends with Palpatine saying, "The Republic will be following your career closely." The actual course of events that turned Anakin to the dark side could have simply been the path Anakin choose himself, and then Palpatine just helping him along.If the events took a different turn, say Shmi survived somehow then that may have been the fracture point Palpatine attempted to exploit.

 

[BlueOnion]

Andy -

Are there any threads you are aware at www.theforce.net that touches on the actual Jedi prophecy and who was the originator of the prophecy?

I am really going to speculate here...

Given Information:

- The Sith dable in un-natural facets of the force.

- Creating and and preserving life are considered un-natural facets of the force.

Speculating:

Would it be to much of a reach to assume there was a greater Jedi Master before Yoda who had an unequal ability in the force; whether this be seeing the future or simply a good understanding of the force (Jedi & Sith) to make a prophecy in not so many words predicted:

The Sith will find a way to create life and they will do so with the intention of creating a life with an un-natural level of midi-chroriens (sp??). This individual will be the most powerful Jedi-Sith ever. After first destroying the Jedi and knowing the ways of the Sith, it would be inevitable that this great Sith would eventually destroy his master and quite possibly himself.

Edited - What are some other aspects of this prophecy that were touched on in the movies? Who brought this prophecy to the current generation of Jedis (probably Yoda, but I assume Mace is a possibility)?

 

[thesurfshop19]

I think it only seems like a reach when we consider what we actually saw in the movies. Phantom ends with Palpatine saying, "The Republic will be following your career closely." The actual course of events that turned Anakin to the dark side could have simply been the path Anakin choose himself, and then Palpatine just helping him along.

If the events took a different turn, say Shmi survived someone then that may have been the fracture point Palpatine attempted to exploit.

So Sidious must have known that Qui-Gon and Obi-Won would need to land on Tatooine and would come in contact with Anakin, whom he may have created, right? He must have also (somehow) caused the sand people to take Shmi prisoner.All of this involvement on Tatooine had to be done to get the ball rolling, but how would he have time for all this with his Naboo senator (and eventually chancellor) duties?

 

[shake zula]

I dont think those specific things had to happen, i.e. his mom dieing. Anakin from the beginning was fearful and selfconscience. He would have turned no matter what, it was his destiny. The emperor merely took advantage of this opputunity, he didnt create it.

 

[BlueOnion]

I think it only seems like a reach when we consider what we actually saw in the movies.  Phantom ends with Palpatine saying, "The Republic will be following your career closely."  The actual course of events that turned Anakin to the dark side could have simply been the path Anakin choose himself, and then Palpatine just helping him along.

If the events took a different turn, say Shmi survived someone then that may have been the fracture point Palpatine attempted to exploit.

So Sidious must have known that Qui-Gon and Obi-Won would need to land on Tatooine and would come in contact with Anakin, whom he may have created, right? He must have also (somehow) caused the sand people to take Shmi prisoner.All of this involvement on Tatooine had to be done to get the ball rolling, but how would he have time for all this with his Naboo senator (and eventually chancellor) duties?

I don't think we can assume that this was Palpatine's master plan. He might have had another plan until these events surfaced.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Andy -

Are there any threads you are aware at www.theforce.net that touches on the actual Jedi prophecy and who was the originator of the prophecy?

From what I can find, there hasn't been much exposition on neither who made the prophecy nor what the prophecy actually was - other than the vague "will bring balance" stuff.It's just a plot device to move the story along - a MacGuffin..

A MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or Maguffin) is a plot device that motivates the characters and advances the story, particularly one whose importance is accepted completely by the story's characters, yet from the audience's perspective it might be minimally explained or may test their suspension of disbelief if it is scrutinized. The device, usually an object, is common in films, especially thrillers.

 

[thesurfshop19]

I don't think we can assume that this was Palpatine's master plan. He might have had another plan until these events surfaced.

I guess so. I definitely wonder, now, what the degree of his true master plan was and if we'll ever find out.

 

[BlueOnion]

I don't think we can assume that this was Palpatine's master plan.  He might have had another plan until these events surfaced.

I guess so. I definitely wonder, now, what the degree of his true master plan was and if we'll ever find out.

I don't know about his plan, but his objective was always clear to me; wipe out the Jedi and take control of the Galaxy, which would require taking control of the Republic.

 

[Tony Jabroni]

I'm really hoping they re-release the soundtrack with ALL the music from the film. The best part of the score* is completely left out.

*When Anakin & Obi Wan are dueling on the "bridge", they both wind up with their lightsabers behind them and below the hip, as if ready to throw a haymaker, and when the blows fall, they're not stopped by lightsaber, but by hand to hand.

There's a "whoosing" sound effect as they clash, the music swells and it is absolutely magnificent. The best in all of the movies (followed closely by the music following "NEVERRRR!" in ROTS). And it's not even on the soundtrack.

Neither is the short bit of music where Anakin says "Something's happening...I want more."

I really like the music in Chapter 29 of ROTS. (March on the Temple) Is this on the soundtrack?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I really like the music in Chapter 29 of ROTS. (March on the Temple) Is this on the soundtrack?

Yes. It's actually a re-scoring of some music from Attack of the Clones.

 

[Gatorman]

Andy, I don't buy the palpatine/anakin creation. If you created this being wouldn't you want him "closer to home" to monitor his progress? It just doesn't add up. Also, I don't see that the emperor was all that smart in the turning of anakin (however, this is more lucas being bad at filling in the gaps than anything else)...Palpatines master plan was put into effect in PM He is playing both sides. He starts the conflict on Naboo that put shim in position to become chancellor. In the process of this happenning his apprentice dies, so he seeks out a new one, finding count Dooku at a time when he is turning awa from the order due to the death of his padawan, Qui GOn Jinn. Cool, still okay. At this point the clones are created.In AOTC, the emperor did not know that the Jedi had discovered the clone army, so the battle on Geonosis was the battle to exterminate the jedi. The Emperor cocered his bets with general order 69 in their design, but he could not have forseen the Jedi finding and using the clone army.All along tis littel ride, young anakin is always in danger, whether as a slave, riding in pods, or spaceships. The Chancellor happens upon him and as a moth to a flame, latches on to anakin as a possible "future appentice" In none of this can we assume the emperor has foreknowledge of Anakin, for if he did, there would have been a less clumsy way to get anakin into the sith.My take: Perhaps Darth Plagus the wise had his digs somewhere in that system. Since Naboo is close to Tattoine, there is a chance that Darth Plagus did his work, and when he was killed by his apprentice (sidious, we still assume), sidious Fled or left to Naboo. He probably wasn't there for long (someone with force powers not recognizing a whole other warrior like society onhis planet?), and left to be the senator for naboo. In the meantime, those who were part of Darth Plagus' flock (slaves, servants, etc) would have been sold or whatever as there was no one left to serve.With the power of the Hutts on Tattoine, it seems unlikely that the sith lord held up a base there, but it is far enough out that perhaps there is something to that.IMHO.Gator

 

[BlueOnion]

All along tis littel ride, young anakin is always in danger, whether as a slave, riding in pods, or spaceships. The Chancellor happens upon him and as a moth to a flame, latches on to anakin as a possible "future appentice" In none of this can we assume the emperor has foreknowledge of Anakin, for if he did, there would have been a less clumsy way to get anakin into the sith.

Just because I like this topic, I will disagree. I don't think leaving a young Anakin in the hands of the Jedi can be considered clumsy. If I was Darth Sidious, I don't know if I could come up with a more secure place for the young apprentice.

 

[Gatorman]

All along tis littel ride, young anakin is always in danger, whether as a slave, riding in pods, or spaceships.  The Chancellor happens upon him and as a moth to a flame, latches on to anakin as a possible "future appentice"  In none of this can we assume the emperor has foreknowledge of Anakin, for if he did, there would have been a less clumsy way to get anakin into the sith.

Just because I like this topic, I will disagree. I don't think leaving a young Anakin in the hands of the Jedi can be considered clumsy. If I was Darth Sidious, I don't know if I could come up with a more secure place for the young apprentice.

Oh, I agree there. However, it still fortifies my argument that he knew nothing of anakin until Qui Gon "discovered" him.

 

[BlueOnion]

Oh, I agree there. However, it still fortifies my argument that he knew nothing of anakin until Qui Gon "discovered" him.

But then how did Palpatine obtain the information about his midichlorine (sp??) count? For all intents and purposes at the time Palpatine was intrigued by Anakin ("The Republic will keep it's eye on you") at the end of PM, he was just an average 'jedi' boy.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

All good points, but I see most of them from another angle.

Andy,

I don't buy the palpatine/anakin creation. If you created this being wouldn't you want him "closer to home" to monitor his progress

No. If he were "closer to home", the Jedi would become aware of him and would raise him as one of their own. Remember in PM, Qui-Gon says "Had he been born in the Republic, we would haveidentified him early, and he would have become Jedi, no doubt." Not good for Palpatine. So he leaves him on Tatooine.

Palpatines master plan was put into effect in PM He is playing both sides. He starts the conflict on Naboo that put shim in position to become chancellor. In the process of this happenning his apprentice dies, so he seeks out a new one, finding count Dooku at a time when he is turning awa from the order due to the death of his padawan, Qui GOn Jinn. Cool, still okay. At this point the clones are created.

His plan to become emperor requires him to have an apprentice while Anakin is growing up. He knows when it comes down to it that be it Darth Maul, Dooku or otherwise, once Anakin comes into the picture, he'll defeat them and become his apprentice.

In AOTC, the emperor did not know that the Jedi had discovered the clone army, so the battle on Geonosis was the battle to exterminate the jedi. The Emperor cocered his bets with general order 69 in their design, but he could not have forseen the Jedi finding and using the clone army.

Wrong. The intention all along was for the Jedi to find the clone army. The clone army accomplished many things for the emperor. He created the Confederation of Independent Systems on one side and the clone army for the Republic on the other side. He manufactured the crisis so that he could have, in effect, a Nazi SS-like army that was loyal to him rather than the Senate. It also allowed him to use the conflict to gain more power from the Senate in the name of "security".Further, he knew that the Jedi would be named Generals of the army, thus putting them in position to be exterminated with order 66.

All along tis littel ride, young anakin is always in danger, whether as a slave, riding in pods, or spaceships. The Chancellor happens upon him and as a moth to a flame, latches on to anakin as a possible "future appentice" In none of this can we assume the emperor has foreknowledge of Anakin, for if he did, there would have been a less clumsy way to get anakin into the sith.

Not really. The Force was always protecting Anakin. He was never in any real danger other than to himself.

My take: Perhaps Darth Plagus the wise had his digs somewhere in that system. Since Naboo is close to Tattoine, there is a chance that Darth Plagus did his work, and when he was killed by his apprentice (sidious, we still assume), sidious Fled or left to Naboo. He probably wasn't there for long (someone with force powers not recognizing a whole other warrior like society onhis planet?), and left to be the senator for naboo. In the meantime, those who were part of Darth Plagus' flock (slaves, servants, etc) would have been sold or whatever as there was no one left to serve.

With the power of the Hutts on Tattoine, it seems unlikely that the sith lord held up a base there, but it is far enough out that perhaps there is something to that.

IMHO.

Gator

The backstory of where Sidious came from would be interesting to know. This seems as plausible as anything.

 

[TheLaw]

I just finished reading Dark Lord by that Luceno (sp?) guy. I thought it was horrible. One of the worst Star Wars books I have read (and I had read them all through the beginning of The New Order series). Apparantly Zahn has a new one in february . . . he is still by far my favorite Star Wars author . . . hopefully it is better regarding the rise of Vader theme.

 

[Insein]

After watching the movie last night, I have a greater appreciation for the Darth Vader character. He actually went through a lot. - his mother died in front of him- was constantly called "the chosen one" but felt held back by the Jedi and the council - wasn't trusted by Mace and some of the other jedi- fell in love but had to hide it- tried to keep his allegiance with the republic, but was being played by Sidious and the Jedi- was told by the Jedi council to be wary of Palpatine, when Palpatine seemed to be the one always sticking up for him- was told if he joined the dark side that he could save his wife, but his wife died anyhow- ended up in a "life suit" that kept him a liveHe went through a lot of crap.....but it was cool to see all the things that shaped him and made him who he was.

Would have been even better if someone who could act played him.