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Star Wars III SPOILERS discussion thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BGP
- Start date
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Sorry Cappy...During the water-ballet scene where Darth Sidious tells Anakin the legend of Darth Plagius (sp??) in which Darth Plagius learned how to create life and protect life...and he taught his apprentice.
The audio commentary for this scene has George Lucas saying (not a 100% of the words) "I wanted to convey to the audience how Anakin came to be."
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
During the opera scene, with Palpatine and Anakin, Palpatine tells Anakin the Sith legend of "Darth Plagueis the Wise".
At this point, Plapatine gives Anakin a knowing look. The implication being that Anakin was created by Palpatine.Anakin asks what happened to him.
Palpatine continues
So. Plagius was Palpatine/Sidious' master. Sidious learned how to create life (which he uses to create Anakin) He also knows how to keep people from dying. But he knows that if he tells Anakin the secret, Anakin will kill him as Palpatine did HIS master.
Another subtle clue is when Yoda is fighting Sidious. Sidious says "You cannot defeat me. Darth Vader shall become more powerful than either of us." He created Anakin to become the most powerful Sith ever in order to take over for him later and cement the Sith's place as rulers of the galaxy forever.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
The "Within a Minute" documentary about everything that's involved in making just one minute of a movie is also incredibly fascinating.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Very interesting stuff.I was wondering about that "more powerful than either of us" stuff. Did Sidious "know" that Vader would be severely damaged in the volcano, yet would have so much hate inside that he'd become an incredibly powerful (yet subordinate) Sith lord?
pelland
Footballguy
Sidious did not create Anakin. If you read the new book "The Rise of Darth Vader" it clearly states this. The Emperor is pondering where he could find another apprentice due to some problems Darth Vader is having with his new suit, loss of confidence etc and it specifically touches on this topic. Excellent read for all you Star Wars fans. Also Sidious did not forsee Anakin losing to Kenobi, he expected him to slay him and then come back and attempt to kill the Emperorer.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
No. Anakin's fall was not part of the plan. That's why Sidious is so interested in turning Luke - to get a new apprentice.It's also why Anakin turns on his master in the end. He was born a slave, but didn't wish to die as one.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Very interesting. I thought I remembered the emperor in the 6th Star Wars saying something like "everything that's transpired has been because of me" or something ... so would it be accurate that the only 2 things he didn't predict correctly would be Vader losing to Obi-Wan and Luke not turning to the dark side?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
My Star Wars world begins at Naboo and ends on Endor. The movies are all that matter.The books are not written by Lucas and are, IMO, not useful for interpreting the actions, intentions, etc. of characters within the univers.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
"Everything that has transpired has done so according to MY design."Except for Vader losing and Luke not turning that is. Yes, you're correct.
Luke is right when he says "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
The Emperor is wrong when he says "Your faith in your friends is yours."
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pelland
Footballguy
Even though the books are not written by Lucas all the details are carefully controlled by him and all tie into the story line. There are some good insights into all the characters that you just will not find in the movies. They answer a lot of questions people seem to be speculating about in these posts.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
But I'll go with the director's commentary and words from Lucas' mouth before I'll go with an author that is giving his interpretation of what happens next. Even if it is "approved" by Lucas.Still. I AM interested in reading this book. I heard one criticism was that there strangely wasn't enough Vader in it.
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thesurfshop19
Footballguy
If Sidious was indeed the one who created Anakin, was his ability to prevent death the reason Vader didn't die in the volcano? (Probably a pretty basic connection, but did they specifically go into it in the commentary?)
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
FYI - There's a 54 page discussion on this topic at theforce.net.The discussion is all over the place. Some actually argue, convincingly, that Plagius was the one that created Anakin.
But it really is a moot point as Lucas intentionally left it open to interpretation.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
No. Sidious actually did know the secret to "keeping the one's you care about from dying". He used it to save Anakin.This is my interpretation. I don't think they specifically addressed this in the commentary.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
The Emperor influenced the midichlorians to create life. So, splitting hairs, it was the Force that created Anakin, not the Emperor.In that vein of thinking, it follows that that life had a choice as to which path it would choose. The Emperor did a good sell job to move him down the dark path.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Why not? We really don't know where Palpatine came from or how he ended up on Naboo.For my money, it was Sidious, not Plagius that created Anakin.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
The book argument only works for stories told via a book and made into a movie second. In this case, the movie was made first and the book second and more specifically George Lucas created the scene in Revenge of the Sith with Sidious speaking about the legend of Darth Plagius to show the audience how Anakin was created. An argument could be made for Plagius or Sidious I guess.
shake zula
Footballguy
Having read the book, seen all the movies...i think anakin was created by the force, not palpatine nor plagious.
pelland
Footballguy
from the "Rise of Darth Vader" pg 133"He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die?How many years would he have to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the force, let alone one created by the force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millenium of being stifled?None would be foundSidious would have had to discover a way to compel midichlorians to do his bidding, and bring into being one as powerful as Anakin. As it was, Sidious and a host of medical droids had merely restored Anakin to life, which-while no small feat-was a far cry from returning someone from death. For thousands of years, the ability to survive death had been pursued by Sith and Jedi alike, and no one had been succesful at discovering the secret."
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
That's a good argument too. And splitting hairs, I believe it is more accurate to say that Palpatine INFLUENCED the midichlorians (in essence The Force itself) to create Anakin. So technically he was created by The Force, not Palpatine.
shake zula
Footballguy
Is the new book "rise to power"..good? Right now im towards of the new jedi order series.
shake zula
Footballguy
For some reason I have enjoyed the books more than some of the movies. I loved the written version of revenge of the sith.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Me too.
shake zula
Footballguy
The books give you a look into the mind of the character. They tell you how they are feeling at crucial times. In a movie you really cant do this. Like for example at the end of Revenge Anakin looks into himself and see's that there was nothing other than himself, his selfishness was the cause of what had happened. In the movie I dont really feel like you saw the termoil. Not to say the movies aren't awesome..Obvisouly i love them if not i wouldnt read the books.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
While this thread's resurrected, two more questions I had (I have read the entire thread, but that was back in May!).1) Regarding the prophecy about Anakin "bringing balance to the force", does he fulfill this at the end of Ep.III (since the Sith and Jedi are technically "equal" in numbers) or Ep.VI (when he ends the Sith threat)? I always thought it was Ep.VI, and the story of his redemption proved the prophecy was right. Is this something that's generally accepted or is anything disputed?2) It really just seems sad to me that the whole reason Anakin seemed to turn (fear of loss of Padme), it turns out the Jedi figured it out ... almost at the exact moment that Anakin was lost (when Qui-Gon contacted Yoda at the end). How intentional was this connection? One one hand, it feels so tragic that it really had to be intentional, given the detail Lucas has put into these stories. On the other hand the whole "Qui-Gon is not gone forever" thing seemed really tacked on and they didn't go into it as much as I would have liked. This "light side" way of preventing death (being "more powerful than you can possibly imagine") sure contrasts with the "dark side" way of preventing death (Vader's suit) ... any other instances or connections?
shake zula
Footballguy
I think he fulfills it at the end of Retunr of the Jedi when he finally does fulfil the prophecy and destroys the sith.
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BlueOnion
Footballguy
Basically. If we are going to allow two story-tellers to tell the same story and we let one story-teller (the director) tell the story over 2 hours and let the other story-teller (an author) tell the same story but give him any where between 9 to 14 hours to tell the story (read the book), it should be no shock which story would be better.A better comparison would be to allow Lucas to create 6 two-hour movies to tell the story of Revenge of the Sith for the comparison to be fair.
shake zula
Footballguy
Oh i completely agree. But todays society has an attention span of about 2 hours.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Point 1 is confirmed with the audio commentary with George Lucas, Anakin fulfills the prophecy in Return of the Jedi.2 Not sure I understand your question, but the book touches more on the Qui-Gon thing than the movie. The movie had to be edited down for time contraints so it was left out.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
I definitely didn't phrase it well. Basically ... there's a real contrast between the way the Jedi and Sith learn how to "prevent death" -- which was a huge reason for Anakin's turn to the dark side, between losing his mother and fearing losing Padme.The Jedi learn it as soon as Padme is dead, with the whole Qui-Gon thing. The Sith (supposedly) use it when Sidious keeps Vader from dying in the volcano. So hypothetically, the Jedi could have saved Padme, not in the traditional sense, but she could have reappeared through the force like Jedi did later, right? (I understand that she wasn't a Jedi, and all that, but let's not let facts get in the way!
)Any discussions on to what extent this was planned all along, and to what extent it was "uh oh ... how do we explain to the viewers why Obi-Wan and Yoda can come back through the force?"
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
He brought balance in an unintended way. He destroyed the Jedi. Then he destroyed the Sith. However, his offspring was a balance of both - a Jedi that can remain on the light side while still retaining his human passions.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Interesting...and probably doing some speculating here.I believe preventing someone from dying was considered un-natural. The Jedi consider death a very natural process of life, so even if they could keep someone in the physical world, theoritically I don't think they would.I definitely didn't phrase it well. Basically ... there's a real contrast between the way the Jedi and Sith learn how to "prevent death" -- which was a huge reason for Anakin's turn to the dark side, between losing his mother and fearing losing Padme.The Jedi learn it as soon as Padme is dead, with the whole Qui-Gon thing. The Sith (supposedly) use it when Sidious keeps Vader from dying in the volcano. So hypothetically, the Jedi could have saved Padme, not in the traditional sense, but she could have reappeared through the force like Jedi did later, right? (I understand that she wasn't a Jedi, and all that, but let's not let facts get in the way!
Any discussions on to what extent this was planned all along, and to what extent it was "uh oh ... how do we explain to the viewers why Obi-Wan and Yoda can come back through the force?"
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
This is still some really good stuff.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Anyone here seen the Clone Wars DVDs? What do you think of them?I only saw the first season (picked up the 2nd season last night) but I thought it was pretty good stuff.
