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Steelers Broke and 4-6, Bengals Division Champs (2 Viewers)

Okay, but that speaks to value based on how much each is getting paid. I am talking straight up, who is the better receiver.

And if Brown is such a great route runner who gets open so much and is niftier with the ball, why does he never score? Seriously, what is the explanation for his failure to score touchdowns?

Do you not agree that the great receivers are ones who not only put up yards, but score a lot, too?

 
AB > Wallace
Despite all numbers to the contrary? And the eyeball test?
Eyeball test? Brown was the team MVP last year. Here are their numbers since Antonio Brown became a starter in week 8 last year (from Pro Football Focus, they don't have stats from yesterday yet). Doesn't even include Brown's skills as a top return man.

Snaps

Wallace 1031

AB 859

Targets/Receptions (%)

Wallace 127/75 (59%)

AB 139/89 (64%)

Receiving Yards (AVG)

Wallace 948 (12.6)

AB 1,294 (14.5)

YAC (AVG)

Wallace 401 (5.3)

AB 539 (6.1)

Drops

Wallace 8

AB 5

Missed Tackles Created

Wallace 9

AB 10

 
I noticed you left out touchdown scored there. How convenient. Also, Roethlisberger was hurt for the last month of last season, so the deep ball became non-existent in the Steelers passing game (which is why Wallace only had 10 catches and no touchdowns in the last three games).

And I think many would agree that Brown benefits greatly by Wallace's presence*. I wonder how Brown would do without Wallace in there to take a corner and a safety with him deep opening up all of those underneath routes for Brown. On the flip side, take out Brown or throw a gimpy Brown in there like yesterday, and Wallace is still capable of making a game-breaking play that got the Steelers back into a game they eventually won.

*similar to how Andre Roberts benefits greatly from Larry Fitzgerald's presence, which is why Roberts has 40-540-5 this year and Fitz has 51-585-4, even though we all know the difference between Fitz and Roberts is much greater than those numbers would indicate. Similar thing with Brown and Wallace. The difference isn't as large (cause Brown is better than Roberts, and Fitz is better than Wallace), but Brown clearly benefits from Wallace's presence.

Also, I think catches is an overrated stat, and I have said that for years, so this is not a new argument I am making.

 
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Okay, but that speaks to value based on how much each is getting paid. I am talking straight up, who is the better receiver. And if Brown is such a great route runner who gets open so much and is niftier with the ball, why does he never score? Seriously, what is the explanation for his failure to score touchdowns? Do you not agree that the great receivers are ones who not only put up yards, but score a lot, too?
Straight up, who is the better receiver, I honestly don't know. It's close, much closer than you seem to think. Wallace does score a lot more TDs, yes, because he's the deep threat. Plays that are designed to be big gainers and designed to score TDs typically go to Wallace. Brown is more of a possession receiver, as you stated. However, I put a lot of stock in a guy who can keep drives alive by making clutch catches, by holding on to the ball, by juking a defender to get the extra 4-5 yards and picking up the first down. It takes plays like that to allow the offense to be in a position to score, and that's what Brown does. He's also an excellent kick returner, so he's +EV in that respect.I honestly believe they're very very close in value. Wallace is clearly the home-run hitter, while Brown is the better all-around receiver - he does more things well than Wallace does. However, to segregate that from the amount of $ they get paid or demand to be paid in order to sign a long-term deal is folly. The $ does matter in a salary-capped sport. The Steelers supposedly offered Wallace somewhere around $10-11M per and he refused it. At that point, a decision has to be made not just on the player but on the overall health of the franchise. The Steelers have made tough cuts in the past based on just this thing, and I suspect they will again if Wallace doesn't lessen his demands. He may go on to tear up the league for someone else, but the Steelers have a certain way of doing things and it's proven to be successful for decades now.
 
I think Wallace is the better WR, but Brown is a chain mover and a big contributor in special teams. He's also a solid locker room guy (not that Wallace isn't too).

I think Brown is worth the money they paid him, but I'm not sure they could justify paying another WR $12+. I think you resign Sanders, draft another mid round guy and spend that money on your average OL and aging D.

 
Okay, but that speaks to value based on how much each is getting paid. I am talking straight up, who is the better receiver. And if Brown is such a great route runner who gets open so much and is niftier with the ball, why does he never score? Seriously, what is the explanation for his failure to score touchdowns? Do you not agree that the great receivers are ones who not only put up yards, but score a lot, too?
Straight up, who is the better receiver, I honestly don't know. It's close, much closer than you seem to think. Wallace does score a lot more TDs, yes, because he's the deep threat. Plays that are designed to be big gainers and designed to score TDs typically go to Wallace. Brown is more of a possession receiver, as you stated. However, I put a lot of stock in a guy who can keep drives alive by making clutch catches, by holding on to the ball, by juking a defender to get the extra 4-5 yards and picking up the first down. It takes plays like that to allow the offense to be in a position to score, and that's what Brown does. He's also an excellent kick returner, so he's +EV in that respect.I honestly believe they're very very close in value. Wallace is clearly the home-run hitter, while Brown is the better all-around receiver - he does more things well than Wallace does. However, to segregate that from the amount of $ they get paid or demand to be paid in order to sign a long-term deal is folly. The $ does matter in a salary-capped sport. The Steelers supposedly offered Wallace somewhere around $10-11M per and he refused it. At that point, a decision has to be made not just on the player but on the overall health of the franchise. The Steelers have made tough cuts in the past based on just this thing, and I suspect they will again if Wallace doesn't lessen his demands. He may go on to tear up the league for someone else, but the Steelers have a certain way of doing things and it's proven to be successful for decades now.
I hear what you are saying. Traditionally speaking, the way the Steelers like to win - running the ball, controlling the clock and playing great defense - a guy like Brown is perfectly suited for their team, since he can keep drives alive with 1st down catches, but this is a different NFL. While you could argue that Brown keeps drives alive that result in longer drives that may or may not result in points, Wallace's ability to take anything to the house can result in getting 7 out of a drive instead of 0. The Steelers old way of winning isn't really the way they win anymore, hence them relying more on the big play and not running it as much as they used to. So in that regard, a guy like Wallace is perfectly suited for their modern day team. In essence, Wallace and Brown form a great 1 and 2; it's just that Wallace is the more dynamic WR, which makes him the 1, while Brown is the 2, the possession WR. And I am not disputing how the Steelers run their organization. They obviously do a great job, year in and year out, but that doesn't mean every move they make is the correct one. But them and New England probably do the best job on an annual basis, which is why both always contend.
I noticed you left out
He also left out punt and kick returns as well. And rushing.
Returns do not matter since I am talking about who the better WIDE RECEIVER is. Brown being good at returns is not a factor when it comes to who is a better WR.
 
Returns do not matter since I am talking about who the better WIDE RECEIVER is. Brown being good at returns is not a factor when it comes to who is a better WR.
Of course it does, these guys dont play in a bubble. They take a 53 man roster spot and help a team win.Of course Wallaces top end speed (combined with Bens crazy play extension ability) will cause more TDs. Probably very similar for many other top speed receivers. But dont think for a minute that Brown doesnt cut and work the underneath (sorry no TDs for these) better then Wallace.
 
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AB > Wallace
Despite all numbers to the contrary? And the eyeball test?
Eyeball test? Brown was the team MVP last year. Here are their numbers since Antonio Brown became a starter in week 8 last year (from Pro Football Focus, they don't have stats from yesterday yet). Doesn't even include Brown's skills as a top return man.

Snaps

Wallace 1031

AB 859

Targets/Receptions (%)

Wallace 127/75 (59%)

AB 139/89 (64%)

Receiving Yards (AVG)

Wallace 948 (12.6)

AB 1,294 (14.5)

YAC (AVG)

Wallace 401 (5.3)

AB 539 (6.1)

Drops

Wallace 8

AB 5

Missed Tackles Created

Wallace 9

AB 10
This paints the picture. The only skill Wallace has over Brown is straight-line speed/getting behind DBs and that has happened much less frequently since mid-2011 and now in Haley's new ball control offense. Brown has better hands and is the better in the open field as his YAC suggests.

 
Returns do not matter since I am talking about who the better WIDE RECEIVER is. Brown being good at returns is not a factor when it comes to who is a better WR.
Of course it does, these guys dont play in a bubble. They take a 53 man roster spot and help a team win.

Of course Wallaces top end speed (combined with Bens crazy play extension ability) will cause more TDs. Probably very similar for many other top speed receivers. But dont think for a minute that Brown doesnt cut and work the underneath (sorry no TDs for these) better then Wallace.
Okay, but Wallace is not a guy who just catches mostly bombs and nothing else (ala DeSean Jackso, Torrey Smith, etc.). They were starting to use him more on shorter routes before the emergence of Brown and even Sanders last year, so it seems like they now use that to their advantage by having his speed spread the field which allows the other guys to work the underneath routes. Wallace can work underneath (see: his TD the other day where he caught a pass just past the line of scrimmage and then turned it into a long TD reception), but he often doesn't simply because they don't need him to. That is what I have noticed in the Steelers games I have seen.
 
wallace was criminally misused all year and still outperformed brown yet stillers homers insist brown is better. i guess they realize they better start bashing him now since he wont be in pitt next yr.

 
ll numbers to the contrary? And the eyeball test?Eyeball test? Brown was the team MVP last year. Here are their numbers since Antonio Brown became a starter in week 8 last year (from Pro Football Focus, they don't have stats from yesterday yet). Doesn't even include Brown's skills as a top return man. 9AB 10
since you have a pff subscription, do you mind reporting who the have rated as the better wr?
 
wallace was criminally misused all year and still outperformed brown yet stillers homers insist brown is better. i guess they realize they better start bashing him now since he wont be in pitt next yr.
They are very different players.Different skill sets will lead to differing opinions on what is the "better player". Throw in the NFL vs. fantasy takes and it further muddles the term "better".Wallace is an extremely rare talent, no doubt. I think his skillset is far rarer than Brown's, but very different also. They are great compliments to one another.Steelers have multiple contracts that will be coming off the books and multiple contracts that are ripe for restructuring. They will keep pushing money into the future until new TV revenues hit.I think it's 50/50 they tag him. I agree that there is very little incentive for Wallace to agree to a long term deal with any type of home town discount.
 
wallace was criminally misused all year and still outperformed brown yet stillers homers insist brown is better. i guess they realize they better start bashing him now since he wont be in pitt next yr.
At the time that Brown went down he was leading the team with receptions. Also if you were watching the Steelers/Chiefs game on Monday I am sure you noticed the Steelers receivers were having a difficult time getting open. Brown, like Wallace, commands a lot of attention from the defense. Take away either one and the passing game suffers. Most of the discussion here was not bashing but just questioning Wallace's strategy in the negotiations. I think I can speak for every Steelers fan that we would love to have Wallace remain with the team. The problem is a pesky little thing called the salary cap and there is only so much to go around. The Steelers made Wallace an offer they thought was fair and they could afford. Wallace feels he deserves more and is choosing to play out his contract and become a free agent. I don't think Wallace or the Steelers are the bad guys -- they are both acting in what they feel is their own best interest. There is still the chance they will work something out but if they don't I wish him well assuming he leaves the division...
 
Wallace now listed as #3 WR behind Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders.
Ed Bouchette does not seem to feel that this will have much of an impact:Coach Mike Tomlin said "situations" will determine if Mike Wallace or Emmanuel Sanders starts at split end going forward.

Tomlin isn't happy with Wallace's recent lack of production, so he's listed Wallace as a co-starter with Sanders. Antonio Brown is locked in at flanker. Still, owners shouldn't be fretting too much here. The Steelers often run a three-wide set as their base, a formation that would kick Sanders into the slot. The bigger concern for both Wallace and Sanders is the health of Ben Roethlisberger.

Source: Ed Bouchette on Twitter Nov 27 - 12:37 PM

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5885/emmanuel-sanders

 
Wallace now listed as #3 WR behind Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders.
Ed Bouchette does not seem to feel that this will have much of an impact:
True but it is noteable. Since Antonio Brown went down Wallace has a grand total of 8 catches and has looked out of sorts (numerous drops, failing to get his feet down in the endzone, not coming back for catchable balls).Really until Ben comes back Wallace is pretty much useless...
 
wallace was criminally misused all year and still outperformed brown yet stillers homers insist brown is better. i guess they realize they better start bashing him now since he wont be in pitt next yr.
He is freakishly fast, but he has criminally poor ability to adjust to the football when it is in the air. Just this week against the Browns, he was open behind the defense down the middle of the field and Batch under-threw the ball which hit the Browns defender in the back of the head. I assume most people blame Batch for not throwning it far enough which is true... but once that mistake was made all Wallace had to do was notice that the ball was underthrown and freakin' stop running... PI at least and maybe a catch. Not to mention the one down the sideline that Haden intercepted... Wallace fell down :rolleyes: His inability to adjust to the football drives me crazy.
 
Merry Christmas everyone.
Everyone but Wallace. He basically played like dog #### all year long.
That's the chance teams take when they play hardball with a player. Not much different than any other worker/company. People tend to be less motivated when they think they aren't being properly compensated for their work.
I don't buy it. Mike Wallace had millions of reasons to be motivated to play well. Having a pro-bowl season would only improve his chances of getting a bigger payday once he becomes a free agent.His hold out, a new offense, injuries to Ben and Antonio Brown, and an occasional lack of focus on his part were all contributing factors.
 
Occasional lack of focus? He's had the most targets of any year in his career this year....and hasn't put up his career best in any statistical category yet. Well, except for drops. It's unlikely that he;ll eclipse any other career best outside of a pretty big game on Sunday with catches.

His lack of focus hasn't been occasional this year from where I'm sitting. He's looked like a sleepwalker a lot.

Wallace basically was proven to be what he is this year: Really great at running 9 routes, not so great at running any others and has questionable hands at times.

He's a good WR. He isn't a great one.

 
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Occasional lack of focus? He's had the most targets of any year in his career this year....and hasn't put up his career best in any statistical category yet. Well, except for drops. It's unlikely that he;ll eclipse any other career best outside of a pretty big game on Sunday with catches.

His lack of focus hasn't been occasional this year from where I'm sitting. He's looked like a sleepwalker a lot.

Wallace basically was proven to be what he is this year: Really great at running 9 routes, not so great at running any others and has questionable hands at times.

He's a good WR. He isn't a great one.
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
 
Occasional lack of focus? He's had the most targets of any year in his career this year....and hasn't put up his career best in any statistical category yet. Well, except for drops. It's unlikely that he;ll eclipse any other career best outside of a pretty big game on Sunday with catches.

His lack of focus hasn't been occasional this year from where I'm sitting. He's looked like a sleepwalker a lot.

Wallace basically was proven to be what he is this year: Really great at running 9 routes, not so great at running any others and has questionable hands at times.

He's a good WR. He isn't a great one.
And there were some plays where he was wide open and was either under or overthrown too. Wallace had a down year and he shoulders much of the blame but he is going to be missed. A lot.
 
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
Says a Steeler fan....who has been saying the same thing for going on a year and a half. Nice try though.I'll leave you all to this abortion, since I'm certain there's at least another 12 pages in 'er."Have fun stormin' the castle!", folks.
 
'5-ish Finkle said:
'Touchdown There said:
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
Says a Steeler fan....who has been saying the same thing for going on a year and a half. Nice try though.
I could care less how long you have been saying it, it does not make you right.
 
'5-ish Finkle said:
'Touchdown There said:
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
Says a Steeler fan....who has been saying the same thing for going on a year and a half. Nice try though.
I could care less how long you have been saying it, it does not make you right.
How much less?
 
Occasional lack of focus? He's had the most targets of any year in his career this year....and hasn't put up his career best in any statistical category yet. Well, except for drops. It's unlikely that he;ll eclipse any other career best outside of a pretty big game on Sunday with catches.

His lack of focus hasn't been occasional this year from where I'm sitting. He's looked like a sleepwalker a lot.

Wallace basically was proven to be what he is this year: Really great at running 9 routes, not so great at running any others and has questionable hands at times.

He's a good WR. He isn't a great one.
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
Says FBO :Biggest decline: Mike Wallace, Pittsburgh Steelers

Since entering the league in 2009, Wallace has ranked 16th, first and fifth in DYAR. This year, he was 80th. He averaged 13.1 yards per catch, 3 yards fewer than his previous career low; he also had a career-worst 54 percent catch rate. Wallace began the year by holding out of training camp in hopes of getting a new contract. The Steelers refused to make an offer, a decision that looks brilliant with the benefit of hindsight. Wallace ended the season on IR with a hip injury and will be a free agent after the season unless the Steelers slap him with the franchise tag. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

Now, it's certainly possible that Wallace catches on elsewhere and plays his tuchus off and becomes a home-run threat for a team like Indy with a rising superstar at QB. But it's also equally likely that he is and has been a one-trick pony all along. He has elite speed, yes, but that will fade with time. He has lousy hands, no body control, doesn't block well, doesn't make tough catches over the middle. He doesn't even have great open-field moves. He has world-class straight-line speed and that makes him a weapon, but he isn't a $12M/year receiver and the Steelers knew it. He's not a guy that's likely to be a star well into his 30s, and he's not a good long-term investment.

You can play revisionist as much as you like here, but you, TT, were the one saying all along that the Steelers couldn't afford him, but the fact is, they weren't ever going to pay him what he was demanding, regardless of the cap situation. The Steelers don't overpay anyone, and anyone who gives Wallace a contract for more than what the Steelers reportedly offered are going to be doing just that. hell, if they really did offer him $50-55M over 5 years, THAT would even have been overpaying him in retrospect, considering how he looked this year.

Hell yes, the Steelers will miss him and miss that added dimension to the offense, but at the price he's demanding, you have to determine value.

 
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
Says a Steeler fan....who has been saying the same thing for going on a year and a half. Nice try though.
I could care less how long you have been saying it, it does not make you right.
Says the guy who has yet to be right about anything Wallace related.
 
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
Says a Steeler fan....who has been saying the same thing for going on a year and a half. Nice try though.
I could care less how long you have been saying it, it does not make you right.
Says the guy who has yet to be right about anything Wallace related.
My personal stalker is back! Here is my favorite post of the year:
A lot of my thoughts going into this season were way off base in retrospect.I believed in Redman. I believed in Haley. I thought Woodley would bounce back. I thought Clark was a liability. I though Pouncey would improve if healthy.Wrong on all counts.
I do love how you left Wallace out of your "I'm wrong" speech. It is classic.I have been right on most accounts, with one exception. I thought the Steelers would trade Wallace, because it is logical to get some draft picks for a top tier guy that you cannot afford. Instead they screwed Wallace to go for the gold this year and karma is a nasty little harlot. Now it is 2013 and Wallace is a UFA. Glaring mismanagement born from ego.Steelers fans have some serious "homer goggles" which have grown thicker with each year of success. Sorry to break the news to you, but your defense is old, your QB is injured more than Mike Vick and your offense is going to lose its deep dimension. Are the Steelers going to pick up some big time free agent o-linemen? NOPE. You can't afford it and your o-line will remain a hot mess. You can't afford Mike Wallace. You can't afford squat.As I correctly mentioned in post #1, welcome to parity in the league.
 
Says a Steelers fan that is about to lose Mike Wallace. There is a high likelihood that Wallace gets a monster payday with the Colts, reunites with Arians and has a short learning curve for 2013. Luck + Wallace = Fantasy Gold
Says a Steeler fan....who has been saying the same thing for going on a year and a half. Nice try though.
I could care less how long you have been saying it, it does not make you right.
Says the guy who has yet to be right about anything Wallace related.
:goodposting:
 
I have been right on most accounts, with one exception. I thought the Steelers would trade Wallace, because it is logical to get some draft picks for a top tier guy that you cannot afford. Instead they screwed Wallace to go for the gold this year and karma is a nasty little harlot. Now it is 2013 and Wallace is a UFA. Glaring mismanagement born from ego.
If the Steelers screwed up it was that overvalued Wallace and he underperformed in 2012. I don't remember you predicting that.
 
Informed backing up informed... about a guy who has been misinformed and wrong about everything regarding Wallace thus far.

Yet you continue to spew.

 
I have been right on most accounts, with one exception. I thought the Steelers would trade Wallace, because it is logical to get some draft picks for a top tier guy that you cannot afford. Instead they screwed Wallace to go for the gold this year and karma is a nasty little harlot. Now it is 2013 and Wallace is a UFA. Glaring mismanagement born from ego.
If the Steelers screwed up it was that overvalued Wallace and he underperformed in 2012. I don't remember you predicting that.
Wallace was overvalued at 2.4 million? I don't think so. He was not paid what he was worth because the Steelers are broke and they could not afford him. They got way more than what they paid for. Sorry.
 
I have been right on most accounts, with one exception. I thought the Steelers would trade Wallace, because it is logical to get some draft picks for a top tier guy that you cannot afford. Instead they screwed Wallace to go for the gold this year and karma is a nasty little harlot. Now it is 2013 and Wallace is a UFA. Glaring mismanagement born from ego.
If the Steelers screwed up it was that overvalued Wallace and he underperformed in 2012. I don't remember you predicting that.
Wallace was overvalued at 2.4 million? I don't think so. He was not paid what he was worth because the Steelers are broke and they could not afford him. They got way more than what they paid for. Sorry.
Overvalued from the standpoint in they felt he would play well and contribute to a winning season. The Steelers were dead wrong about that because Wallace did not play anywhere near his potential and admitted during the season he was having problems keeping his focus.And when you consider Torrey Smith made $529k in 2012 and had more yards and the same number of TDs, Mike Williams had more yards and more TDs and made $686K , etc. -- maybe Wallace was fortunate to have made $2.7 Million (not $2.4).
 

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