False Start
Footballguy
Well there is that. Graham will not win on an appeal either.
So if TEs wanna make WR money they better make the team as a WR, this pretty much dictates what TEs will be classified as regardless of snap count out wide.
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TE Jimmy Graham, CHI (3 Viewers)
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So if TEs wanna make WR money they better make the team as a WR, this pretty much dictates what TEs will be classified as regardless of snap count out wide.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
Just don't call yourself a TE on Twitter so the team can show evidence that you call yourself a TE. :imafranchiseqb:
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Doug B
Footballguy
Meaningless blather:
Can't help thinking this will affect Graham's play on the field. I'm admittedly not being fair at all, because he's never shown to be a character problem. Really hoping he doesn't keep dwelling on the "lost money" ... dunno, money has a way of corrupting.
Can't help thinking this will affect Graham's play on the field. I'm admittedly not being fair at all, because he's never shown to be a character problem. Really hoping he doesn't keep dwelling on the "lost money" ... dunno, money has a way of corrupting.
Shutout
Footballguy
No doubt. Kinda hard to win an argument that you're a flower when you call yourself a weed. Lesson here: Careful what you say in social media, kids.
Doug B
Footballguy
I wonder, too, if college TEs drafted in 2015 forward have their agents move to get them listed officially as WRs on NFL rosters.
Going forward, I don't think star pass-catching TEs (when coming into the league) will make the same social-media mistakes again. And at some point ... the NFL and NFLPA will have to address this explicitly.
Going forward, I don't think star pass-catching TEs (when coming into the league) will make the same social-media mistakes again. And at some point ... the NFL and NFLPA will have to address this explicitly.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
It's not a question of what percentage of snaps you line up out wide. It's a question of what percentage of snaps you line up in tight. There's not a WR in the league that lines up tight to the formation even 5% of the time.
Basically, a TE's responsibilities involve sometimes playing in tight and sometimes playing out wide. A WR's responsibilities never involve sometimes playing in tight. If you see a guy who spends a good percentage of time tight to the formation, that guy's a TE.
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Xue
Footballguy
Jace Amaro was listed as a WR on the Texas Tech depth chart: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/text/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2013-14/depth_chart_event/depth_chart.pdf
Xue
Footballguy
"Playing in tight" is not a "responsibility". There needs to be a new distinction of Y-type TE and H- or F-type TE. The Y-TE is your commonly known "receiving" TE.
Xue
Footballguy
The Air Raid doesn't use TEs. Richard Rodgers (who also played in the Air Raid) was listed as a WR: http://www.calbears.com/fls/30100/PDF/2013-10-12CalDepthChartvsUCLA.pdf
Rodgers was listed as a TE, however, under the old regime, who ran a "pro" style offense: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/cal/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2012-13/depth_chart_non_event/2012postspringdepthchart.pdf
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
This is a situation where I would hold nothing against him for holding out... He deserves to be paid like an elite WR, no reason to go out there and risk an injury without a long term, big money (at least $12MM a year), with a lot guaranteed contract comes in.
Shutout
Footballguy
To answer the old question "What's in a name?" I guess about $5M.
There should be some formula for the tag that slides based on percentage at a position. For RB/QB, etc it would be easy and for the DE/OLD or TE/WR, it just gets nailed down to a formula and an input and a number. These things get ugly and silly because everyone on the planet knows it doesn't pass the eyeball test.
If you don't think Jimmy Graham is worth the higher number then you ought to let him walk and test his luck elsewhere and you deal with the consequences and it will become crystal clear real quick who was right.
There should be some formula for the tag that slides based on percentage at a position. For RB/QB, etc it would be easy and for the DE/OLD or TE/WR, it just gets nailed down to a formula and an input and a number. These things get ugly and silly because everyone on the planet knows it doesn't pass the eyeball test.
If you don't think Jimmy Graham is worth the higher number then you ought to let him walk and test his luck elsewhere and you deal with the consequences and it will become crystal clear real quick who was right.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
So as a practical matter, couldn't Graham still hold out? He can still demand WR money, right?
Doug B
Footballguy
Yes, but he has to be willing to hold out the entire 2014 season and forfeit the $7 M TE franchise-tag figure. And then the Saints can tag him again in 2015 at $8.4 M to retain his rights.
The Saints could get very rancorous with Graham if they were so inclined. But that's not in either party's best interest.
Sweet Love
IBL Representative
Well put...I think with the specialization we are seeing in the NFL today (more strictly receiving TEs and RBs) you almost have to classify them differently than their blocking counterparts...I am not sure if there is a single position in the NFL where there is such a divide in responsibilities than the TE role, which is why we are running into this issue with Graham.
psychobillies
Footballguy
At least 12MM? That seems pretty high. You have to consider still, as good as he is, he's usually playing against linebackers instead of top CBs. I think this puts him closer to 10MM with a big bonus.
psychobillies
Footballguy
Also consider that they went through all of this specifically to avoid paying him 12MM/year.
cstu
Footballguy
What's he worth on the open market? I don't think it's $12M since you don't just throw him on any offense, like say Calvin, and have him reproduce his numbers. He's a great TE but the offense is tailor made for him to produce. That to me limits him from being paid like an elite WR.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
When Jimmy Graham signs, I hope Gronkowski hears about it in the shower. So he can do this!
Jimmaayyyy!!!!!
Jimmaayyyy!!!!!
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Out of curiosity do fullbacks and halfbacks get treated differently under the rules? Or are they all just "running backs" for purposes of the franchise tag?
RB's are RBs in terms of offensive football but their responsibilities and where they line up defines their role. - In reality altogether all there is are just 1. linemen, 2. ends and 3. backs, and even ends (Harvin playing RB) and backs (Sproles playing WR) can be interchangeable. And even some TEs (Casey, Griffin) line up at FB for instance and some FBs (Jed Collins) can line up at TE.
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Doug B
Footballguy
It's not clear to me that an appeal is possible. I've been seeing it mentioned both ways (that it is/that it isn't).
I guess there's such a thing as non-binding arbitration ... but then, what's the point?
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Post of the week. Simply awesome.Sabertooth said:
Adam Harstad
Moderator
I don't know, I think there's a pretty big range between Alfred Morris and Darren Sproles, too. Or between Percy Harvin and Calvin Johnson. Or between Earl Thomas and T.J. Ward. Lots of positions cover a pretty wide range of different styles and responsibilities. I would say that the difference between Jimmy Graham and most other TEs is far smaller than the difference between Denver's current QB and Denver's former QB.Sweet Love said:
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Not a penny under $10, with a lot guaranteed for many years to come. IMO he is worth more than that. $7 for one season is an insult. He should sit. Guy is a matchup nightmare, doesn't matter who covers him... Stick Patrick Peterson on him for all it matters. He can take away a teams best defender and still produce in the red zone, he is a monster and the Saints aren't doing what is best here.cstu said:
I really hope he holds out.
msommer
Footballguy
Who held out and went on to get a massive contract later? I ask because I do not know
JG tried to go from 7 to 12. Failed. He might be pissed at the Saints, should really be pissed at NFL/NFLPA but that's neither here nor there.
What does he do now? If the saint offer seven years at 63m with 36 guaranteed in the first four years?
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
I say again that the NFLPA missed an opportunity with the last CBA. The whole position dependent salary thing is dumb to begin with. A franchise player is a franchise player. It's your best guy, the one you can't live without. As such, he should be paid in the top X regardless of position. If it's a QB, and it usually is, that's easy and fine. If it's a WR, it's likely Megatron, and he DESERVES to be paid in the top X overall (with the QBs). IF it's Graham (and I doubt that for the Saints), he should be in the top X. It sure as Hell isn't a kicker, but those guys get the tag as often as any other position, just because it's cheap for the teams to do it.
That just solves all the position problems and makes a ton more sense.
That said, the decision makes sense given the current rules AND from actual value standpoint. The guys he is getting his salary based on are primarily also TEs that spend a lot of time in the slot and out wide. It's not like he's the only one, and it's not like the blocking grinders are sneaking into the top of the salary heap where they start to affect the tag number. Despite what some seem to think, hes not unique. He's just really good. Vernon Davis is just as valuable to his team as Graham is, maybe more so. But because he happens to play in a different scheme and gets fewer snaps in the slot, he deserves the 5M less than Graham? Nope. The position has become more valuable in recent years, but that just means that the salaries will creep up to match that value. The tag isn't really going to kill that value in the long run. Graham will get a big deal, and then the next year's tag number will be higher. Then Thomas etc will get big deals, and it will be even higher, etc.
That just solves all the position problems and makes a ton more sense.
That said, the decision makes sense given the current rules AND from actual value standpoint. The guys he is getting his salary based on are primarily also TEs that spend a lot of time in the slot and out wide. It's not like he's the only one, and it's not like the blocking grinders are sneaking into the top of the salary heap where they start to affect the tag number. Despite what some seem to think, hes not unique. He's just really good. Vernon Davis is just as valuable to his team as Graham is, maybe more so. But because he happens to play in a different scheme and gets fewer snaps in the slot, he deserves the 5M less than Graham? Nope. The position has become more valuable in recent years, but that just means that the salaries will creep up to match that value. The tag isn't really going to kill that value in the long run. Graham will get a big deal, and then the next year's tag number will be higher. Then Thomas etc will get big deals, and it will be even higher, etc.
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Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Jimmy Graham is not worth $12 million. He's just not. On a fantasy football board with a bunch of people drafting him in the first round he's worth $12 million. By the impressive stats he's worth $12 million. He's a tight end. An extremely good one. You could call him a great TE. You could call him better than Gronk even. Elite, uber-stud, etc.
Still just a TE. Sorry Graham, you suck as a WR.
Look at the games where he split out wide. It's admittedly a small sample, but I'll point to week 6 last year against New England. The Saints gameplan had Graham split out wide as primarily a WR. What were his numbers? Zero receptions for zero yards on 6 targets. What was Graham's biggest week of 2013? Week 2 against Tampa Bay where he had 10 receptions for 179 yards, 1 TD, on 16 targets. He was primarily a TE that entire game. In fact go check out the game logs and play-by-play on this site (subscription required) and you will find that he was incredibly successful as a TE and a complete afterthought when he spilt out wide.
Graham dominates the game like few other TE's can over the middle. His size, speed, quickness, leaping ability are an unfair matchup for most any LB. But he can't play the wide reciever position nearly as effectively. In fact, he's proven to be a liability at wideout. He wants to be paid like a WR, but he can't do what they do. I don't see what his argument is really.
Now having said that, he should be willing to take an offer in the range of what Gronk is making (~$9 mill) and be done with this nonsense. Hopefully cooler heads prevail and the Saints extend an olive branch offer so that Graham can save face and the Saints can lock him up long term.
Still just a TE. Sorry Graham, you suck as a WR.
Look at the games where he split out wide. It's admittedly a small sample, but I'll point to week 6 last year against New England. The Saints gameplan had Graham split out wide as primarily a WR. What were his numbers? Zero receptions for zero yards on 6 targets. What was Graham's biggest week of 2013? Week 2 against Tampa Bay where he had 10 receptions for 179 yards, 1 TD, on 16 targets. He was primarily a TE that entire game. In fact go check out the game logs and play-by-play on this site (subscription required) and you will find that he was incredibly successful as a TE and a complete afterthought when he spilt out wide.
Graham dominates the game like few other TE's can over the middle. His size, speed, quickness, leaping ability are an unfair matchup for most any LB. But he can't play the wide reciever position nearly as effectively. In fact, he's proven to be a liability at wideout. He wants to be paid like a WR, but he can't do what they do. I don't see what his argument is really.
Now having said that, he should be willing to take an offer in the range of what Gronk is making (~$9 mill) and be done with this nonsense. Hopefully cooler heads prevail and the Saints extend an olive branch offer so that Graham can save face and the Saints can lock him up long term.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I agree with a lot of this. When it came down to it in a few key games Payton and Brees got outcoached in the way they used Graham.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Aqib Talib and the Seattle defenders stoned Graham, easily. I will grant that they often had to commit well-concealed pass interference to do it. But when the refs let DBs mug him, Graham can be neutralized by arm grabs and short-area physical coverage in general.
They only have until July 15th to get a long term deal done (although not sure if it could be extended if he appeals this ruling).
Jeremy
Footballguy
John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
Can't that be said of any wr? I guess maybe Calvin would still be strong enough to fight through the "cheating", but I don't know of many others...
steveski
Footballguy
There aren't any restrictions on what they can pay him. The restriction was based on what he gets paid if he's franchise tagged.
lod01
Footballguy
Then that is what I would do if I was them. I'd also tell Brees to give some $ back because he's not Brees without Graham.
steveski
Footballguy
I don't think Graham is Graham without Brees either though. I think all parties agree that what's best is to lock up Graham long term and make him the highest paid TE. He'll make a lot more than he would being franchise tagged and more importantly keep fantasy owners like me happy.
psychobillies
Footballguy
Except that Brees was Brees before Graham. The guy is on a hall of fame trajectory right now. They are gonna give him lots and lots of money, but he's not gonna get anywhere near Calvin money. The Saints are fixing to have to pay a bunch of young guys (Cam Jordan, Hicks, Vaccarro and others). They already have the Brees contract to deal with, they can't afford to overpay here just because Graham might get his feelings hurt.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
They can pay him whatever they want, I think that's the point. They don't want to pay him double-digit millions per year.
Doug B
Footballguy
I think the Saints are willing to make the contract "worth" and average of $10M/yr on paper, though what's really going to matter is the guaranteeed money over the first few years.
What was Gronkowski's deal really worth? I assume the entire $54 million was not guaranteed, and thus he's not going to end up getting $9M/yr over all six years.
False Start
Footballguy
Cant afford to pay the most talented and productive TE in football and one of the most important assets to your club what he is worth? I agree, why would someone want to do that.
massraider
Footballguy
http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Rob%20Gronkowski%20&Position=TE&Team=Patriots
Looks like the last two years, or about 17 mill in base salary, could be considered funny money. Gronk received his deal in 2012. At this point, that's a mere starting point for any Graham discussions.
As to making it look like 10 mill on paper, some funny money on the end of the deal to make his agent look better.....I think Jimmy Graham knows he can do better. Most players settle on the bonus money, and the agent gets the inflated number so he, and his client, can feel better. You could easily make the argument that Graham is as a tough a matchup as there is in the league, and just as dangerous as Calvin Johnson. I think he's gonna get top dollar, and I don't think some wink-wink deal with a nice bonus, and fake money is gonna cut it.
It doesn't sound Graham is in the mood for a hometown discount, but we really don't know where his mindset is. Frankly, the Saints have already gotten their hometown discount from Graham for the last few years. Jimmy Graham, according to OverTheCap.com has made 3.3 mill in his career to date. If Graham wants to get his market value, I think it's more than fair he expect it.
Thing is, what's his market value? Highest-paid TE? If I am Graham's agent, I would start there, and go up. If Graham plays this year under the franchise tag, and plays as he has been, he's STILL underpaid.
Mike Wallace received 28 mill in the first two years of his deal with Miami. Graham should expect 32, I would say. And Graham knows someone will happily pay him WR money. Question is, is he willing to leave New Orleans, and play out his franchise tag? Of course, there's a chance he could get tagged again.
Maybe that's the smartest move for New Orleans. Tag him twice, then let someone else deal with the cap nightmare.
