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TE Jimmy Graham, CHI (3 Viewers)

Bloom made an excellent point on the audible about the three things a player needs to succeed. They need talent, opportunity, and situation. Two of the three doesn't work. Graham just has a terrible situation. Maybe that changes in the future due to coaching scheme changes or trade but I don't see it changing much this season.

I dumped him in dynasty and I'm very happy to have Antonio Gates right now. Due to the suckiness of his situation, Graham is interchangeable with guys like Tamme and Donnell. Meh, in other words.

 
mozzy84 said:
chad in Indy said:
Zdravko said:
This is the year of bizarre usage of expensive off-season acquisitions. Graham, Spiller, Andre Johnson...you'd think when a coach trades or pays a relatively high price to get an offensive player, he has something very specific in mind for how to use that player. So far - surprisingly poor job from Carroll and Payton.
I think Spiller is more likely the problem and not being trusted in all situtations yet. Either he doesn't know the playbook well enough, or something else. As far as Graham, yes the OC has not done a good job getting Graham involved. I'm guessing the Hawks didn't realize just how bad Graham really is at run blocking. Even so, there doesn't seem to be any chemistry between Wilson and Graham.
watching brees on Thursday make Watson look awesome made me think maybe Jimmy was a tad overrated because of brees? I dunno I just don't get how bad he is now...
Last night was due mainly to ATL being unable to cover Watson.

 
You can't cut him. He's still a supreme talent. On the chance that Seattle coaching staff realizes that they need to switch things up to combat their losing ways and they start feeding him you don't want to hand jimmy graham to another owner in your league gift wrapped with a bow. You have no choice but to hold if you are an owner.
this is what it is... you'll get 40-60 yards.. maybe a TD.. low end TE1... what is going to change to make him even a top 5 TE ROS? he's untradable in re-draft... cant say the signs weren't out there pre-season... they were illuminated billboard size signs this was going to be what happened
Traded him in a package deal and got Gronk.
Curious on this one... who else was in the package? Hard to believe someone would let go of the definitive #1 TE.
Leveon bell was the other part of the deal

 
Jimmy just isn't going to put up numbers when the Seahawks face such a pathetic offense. They don't have to score many points or take any chances.

 
I'm glad I fell asleep at half time. Saved me about an hour and half of frustration. This inconsistency is maddening.

 
There was a 3rd and 10 I think early in 2nd half where graham was kept in to block by design and didn't run a route. 5yd out 5yd drag, seam route... That is graham route tree in Seattle

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.
Really? Did not know that. But that does give me hope that he'll leave there as soon as his contract is up.

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.
Really? Did not know that. But that does give me hope that he'll leave there as soon as his contract is up.
Doubt you have to wait that long. Soon they will ask him to redo his contract, as they can use that $ to pay some defenders, he will say, 'um,....nah'. That will force them to cut him.

a three-year, $27 million deal for Seattle.

No way they continue to pay these rates for a guy to catch 60 balls a year for 800 yards. They can get any ham & egger to do that.

 
This is the reality of Graham. He's just as likely to lose a game for you as win one.
I think the word you meant to use is more not just. He's #15 in my PPR league in PPG. He has 4 weeks of 6 or less in PPR, which is just plain bad, i.e. TE40ish and one week of 17, which is good, but still TE5 type range. Only 2 weeks of top TE production, which is what people expected taking him in the 3rd. He's definitely handicapped teams because he's been in everyone's starting lineups for the 4 bad weeks and based on last week, he's stuck in them for a while.

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.
Really? Did not know that. But that does give me hope that he'll leave there as soon as his contract is up.
You really didn't know Graham was traded to Seattle and thought he signed as a free agent?

 
What exactly did they expect to get? They bought a pass catching TE who hates blocking and put him in an offense where the TE has to block a lot. Square peg meet round hole. Didn't understand the move when it happened and still don't.
Guessing you have no idea what percentage of plays that Graham has been running a route vs blocking on a run play.

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.
Really? Did not know that. But that does give me hope that he'll leave there as soon as his contract is up.
You really didn't know Graham was traded to Seattle and thought he signed as a free agent?
Yep; I really didn't pay attention to why he landed in Seattle. Congratulations--you've finally found somebody you can feel superior to!

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.
Really? Did not know that. But that does give me hope that he'll leave there as soon as his contract is up.
You really didn't know Graham was traded to Seattle and thought he signed as a free agent?
Yep; I really didn't pay attention to why he landed in Seattle. Congratulations--you've finally found somebody you can feel superior to!
I wasn't trying to find someone to feel superior to I just found that to be a bit crazy for someone on a fantasy football message board. If Graham would have been a free agent there would have been an insane amount of buzz and rumors, etc and anyone that plays fantasy would have been all over that in the offseason.

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.
Really? Did not know that. But that does give me hope that he'll leave there as soon as his contract is up.
You really didn't know Graham was traded to Seattle and thought he signed as a free agent?
Yep; I really didn't pay attention to why he landed in Seattle. Congratulations--you've finally found somebody you can feel superior to!
I wasn't trying to find someone to feel superior to I just found that to be a bit crazy for someone on a fantasy football message board. If Graham would have been a free agent there would have been an insane amount of buzz and rumors, etc and anyone that plays fantasy would have been all over that in the offseason.
I hear ya--sorry for the snark. There are so few trades that mean anything in football that I just assumed free agency. But you're right--there would have been an insane amount of buzz if he'd been a free agent, so I should have known.

 
What exactly did they expect to get? They bought a pass catching TE who hates blocking and put him in an offense where the TE has to block a lot. Square peg meet round hole. Didn't understand the move when it happened and still don't.
Guessing you have no idea what percentage of plays that Graham has been running a route vs blocking on a run play.
Didn't figure I'd have to state the obvious that the "a lot" was in comparison to what he was asked to do in NO, but I forgot where I was for a moment :rolleyes:

 
It's over guys. I've owned Jimmy for years now, and I'm going down with the ship. I told myself I would sell after the next good showing, and I just couldn't do it. But you can make something good of this. Get out while you can.

 
When he gets more than 5 targets, he's a top 2-3 TE. Otherwise he's crap. I really hope he leaves Seattle next year.
Honest question: can you or anyone else think of a worse historical free agency fit than Jimmy Graham signing with Seattle, just in terms of being the exact wrong skill set for the wrong scheme? I honestly can't think of a single one.
He was traded, not signed.

Suh was a phenomenally bad signing for Miami, though.
OFF-TOPIC - Miami's defense had a great game last weekend at Tennessee with 4 turnovers & 6 sacks. Prior to that they had 1 sack - they went over a month without a sack.

 
What exactly did they expect to get? They bought a pass catching TE who hates blocking and put him in an offense where the TE has to block a lot. Square peg meet round hole. Didn't understand the move when it happened and still don't.
Guessing you have no idea what percentage of plays that Graham has been running a route vs blocking on a run play.
Didn't figure I'd have to state the obvious that the "a lot" was in comparison to what he was asked to do in NO, but I forgot where I was for a moment :rolleyes:
Fair enough. Question stands. Do you have any idea what percentage of plays he's been in a route vs blocking on a run play?

 
What exactly did they expect to get? They bought a pass catching TE who hates blocking and put him in an offense where the TE has to block a lot. Square peg meet round hole. Didn't understand the move when it happened and still don't.
Guessing you have no idea what percentage of plays that Graham has been running a route vs blocking on a run play.
Didn't figure I'd have to state the obvious that the "a lot" was in comparison to what he was asked to do in NO, but I forgot where I was for a moment :rolleyes:
Fair enough. Question stands. Do you have any idea what percentage of plays he's been in a route vs blocking on a run play?
I'm going to guess it's 50/50....wouldn't be shocked if it were 60/40 passing route to staying in to block. I don't know if the other games they've played matched how they used him against Carolina or not. I think the Carolina game was close to 60/40.

If it's 60/40, then it becomes a scheme, QB execution question.

ETA: I'd also guess it was around 75/25 with the Saints which would be a significant drop off as I was suggesting above and going back to my point because I'm pretty confident the Saints threw the ball way more than Seattle does magnifying the percentages that much more.

 
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I'm going to guess it's 50/50....wouldn't be shocked if it were 60/40 passing route to staying in to block. I don't know if the other games they've played matched how they used him against Carolina or not. I think the Carolina game was close to 60/40.

If it's 60/40, then it becomes a scheme, QB execution question.

ETA: I'd also guess it was around 75/25 with the Saints which would be a significant drop off as I was suggesting above and going back to my point because I'm pretty confident the Saints threw the ball way more than Seattle does magnifying the percentages that much more.
My apologies if I was confrontational. That's not my intent. I hear this notion of Graham spending a lot of his snaps blocking and know its wrong. I get where its coming from. Talking heads on TV trying to sound smart, but its just not true. Its a narrative that plays well with people that aren't watching all the Seahawk games.

Reality? Danny Kelly at Fieldgulls is (in my opinion) the best most credible analyst/writer that invests a lot of his time into the Seahawks. Here's an article from Oct. 6th that looks at the specific pass route / blocking data. Yes, this is only through the first four games, but the past three haven't been any different. Here's the numbers from week 4.

Regardless, of Graham's 49 snaps, here's how he was used:

39 snaps running pass routes (80%)

3 snaps were pass blocking assignments (6%)

7 snaps were run blocking assignments (14%)

When I say "pass routes," that doesn't necessarily mean pass plays, but on these snaps, Graham lined up outside, either in the slot or out wide, and either ran a route or blocked downfield like a receiver would. In other words -- he was playing like "a receiver" would.

I saw three plays where Graham was asked to block for Russell Wilson in-line, in the trenches, and seven plays where he was asked to be a run-blocking in-line tight end. This is true "tight end" style stuff.

I feel like these splits make a lot of sense -- 80-20 -- they're not asking Graham to do pure Zach Millery tight end stuff too much, while at the same time, they are still getting him involved in there a little bit too. Perhaps to keep the element of disguise intact, and perhaps to continue to ease him into that role.
I believe the percentage of pass routes was even higher in week 6. I saw the data somewhere, but can't find it. That was the week he went for 140 yards against Carolina.

Seattle hasn't finished games. That's why they have 4 losses. If the defense comes up with a single stop in the fourth quarter several of those loses turn into wins. This idea that they're losing because they're not utilizing Graham properly is absurd IMO. Double digit leads in the fourth quarter means they're playing well and according to plan. The plan has worked well in the past. We'll see if it continues to work moving forward.

 
Have two NFL teams ever done a 'trade back'? This has worked out terribly for both.
Not that I recall but I am sure hoping that they give up on their mistake and cut him. That would free him up to sign with ATL and go against Payton twice a year. He would probably take less $ to sign and get that opportunity.

 
lod01 said:
JuniorNB said:
Have two NFL teams ever done a 'trade back'? This has worked out terribly for both.
Not that I recall but I am sure hoping that they give up on their mistake and cut him. That would free him up to sign with ATL and go against Payton twice a year. He would probably take less $ to sign and get that opportunity.
That's simply not going to happen--the Seahawks have a ton of cap space in 2016 so they aren't going to need to cut him for extra money.

 
I'm going to guess it's 50/50....wouldn't be shocked if it were 60/40 passing route to staying in to block. I don't know if the other games they've played matched how they used him against Carolina or not. I think the Carolina game was close to 60/40.

If it's 60/40, then it becomes a scheme, QB execution question.

ETA: I'd also guess it was around 75/25 with the Saints which would be a significant drop off as I was suggesting above and going back to my point because I'm pretty confident the Saints threw the ball way more than Seattle does magnifying the percentages that much more.
My apologies if I was confrontational. That's not my intent. I hear this notion of Graham spending a lot of his snaps blocking and know its wrong. I get where its coming from. Talking heads on TV trying to sound smart, but its just not true. Its a narrative that plays well with people that aren't watching all the Seahawk games.

Reality? Danny Kelly at Fieldgulls is (in my opinion) the best most credible analyst/writer that invests a lot of his time into the Seahawks. Here's an article from Oct. 6th that looks at the specific pass route / blocking data. Yes, this is only through the first four games, but the past three haven't been any different. Here's the numbers from week 4.

Regardless, of Graham's 49 snaps, here's how he was used:

39 snaps running pass routes (80%)

3 snaps were pass blocking assignments (6%)

7 snaps were run blocking assignments (14%)

When I say "pass routes," that doesn't necessarily mean pass plays, but on these snaps, Graham lined up outside, either in the slot or out wide, and either ran a route or blocked downfield like a receiver would. In other words -- he was playing like "a receiver" would.

I saw three plays where Graham was asked to block for Russell Wilson in-line, in the trenches, and seven plays where he was asked to be a run-blocking in-line tight end. This is true "tight end" style stuff.

I feel like these splits make a lot of sense -- 80-20 -- they're not asking Graham to do pure Zach Millery tight end stuff too much, while at the same time, they are still getting him involved in there a little bit too. Perhaps to keep the element of disguise intact, and perhaps to continue to ease him into that role.
I believe the percentage of pass routes was even higher in week 6. I saw the data somewhere, but can't find it. That was the week he went for 140 yards against Carolina.

Seattle hasn't finished games. That's why they have 4 losses. If the defense comes up with a single stop in the fourth quarter several of those loses turn into wins. This idea that they're losing because they're not utilizing Graham properly is absurd IMO. Double digit leads in the fourth quarter means they're playing well and according to plan. The plan has worked well in the past. We'll see if it continues to work moving forward.
not confrontational :shrug:

I've posted that I didn't understand the move from the get go....it's just two completely different offensive philosophies with respect to the TE. I'm sure they'll figure it out at some point. The Carolina game is exactly why they need to give him the ball more. My point above was simply that Graham was in a system where he was out on passing plays 70-75% of the time in NO and they passed a buttload. Now even though he may be out on a similar number of pass plays (60ish %) they don't pass nearly as much as NO did, so the decrease in reps magnifies the decrease in %. It's easy for one to say he's only out 10% less than he was in NO, but it really means nothing until we factor in the fact that NO passes the ball XX% more than Seattle does.

I've not ever said they are losing because they aren't using Graham.

 
Speculation but not looking good. Trainers were checking front of knee below knee cap

@ProFootballDoc: Happened on the step before the knee hyper-flexed.

Limited video but worry is for patella/extensor tendon injury.

https://t.co/b8Rx2YwT0T

@ProFootballDoc: Obviously not good when aircast/cart are used

Limited video on @TheJimmyGraham doubt fracture but worry is for extensor tendon injury.

@ProFootballDoc: On the key video on @TheJimmyGraham right knee injury, the camera view is blocked by the side judge. Happens on step before the fall.

 
Neither can I.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21813442 Patellar tendon ruptures in National Football League players.Boublik M[SIZE=.8461em]1[/SIZE], Schlegel T, Koonce R, Genuario J, Lind C, Hamming D.
Author information
Abstract BACKGROUND:Although knee injuries are common among professional football players, ruptures of the patellar tendon are relatively rare. Predisposing factors, mechanisms of injury, treatment guidelines, and recovery expectations are not well established in high-level athletes.

HYPOTHESIS:Professional football players with isolated rupture of the patellar tendon treated with timely surgical repair will return to their sport.

STUDY DESIGN:Case series; Level of evidence, 4.

METHODS:Twenty-four ruptures of the patellar tendon in 22 National Football League (NFL) players were identified from 1994 through 2004. Team physicians retrospectively reviewed training room and clinic records, operative notes, and imaging studies for each of these players. Player game statistics and draft status were analyzed to identify return to play predictors. A successful outcome was defined as participating in 1 regular-season NFL game.

RESULTS:Eleven of the 24 injuries had antecedent symptoms. The most common mechanism of injury was an eccentric overload to a contracting extensor mechanism. Physical examination demonstrated a palpable defect in all players. Twenty-two were complete ruptures, and 2 were partial injuries. Three of the 24 cases had a concomitant anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injury. In 19 of the 24 injuries, the player returned to participate in at least 1 game in the NFL. Players who returned were drafted, on average, in the fourth round, while those who failed to return to play were drafted, on average, in the sixth round. Of those players who returned to play, the average number of games played was 45.4, with a range of 1 to 142 games.

CONCLUSION:Patellar tendon ruptures can occur in otherwise healthy professional football players without antecedent symptoms or predisposing factors. The most common mechanism of injury is eccentric overload. Close attention should be paid to stability examination of the knee given the not uncommon occurrence of concomitant ACL injury. Although this is usually a season-ending injury when it occurs in isolation, acute surgical repair generally produces good functional results and allows for return to play the following season. Players chosen earlier in the draft are more likely to return to play.
 

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