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Teach me something about football statistics (1 Viewer)

After taking a couple college stats classes I did a lot of research for a paper on baseball statistics. I chose baseball statistics because the information was more readily available and I felt the rules of baseball would be better understood by my audience. I am much more interested in learning some more about football statistics though. I see people like Chase Stuart , SSOG and others referencing statistics that I really have no understanding of what they mean. I have seen mention of things like Net Yards per Attempt as a good measure of a QB's performance, which I understand what it means but not why it is the best measure to use. I figure with a good basic knowledge of statistics it may be good to delve into things a bit deeper.

What statistics do I need to focus on?

Why is that a valuable statistic to look at?

Where do I find the this statistics or the inputs I will need to compute it?

Anything else you feel important to include as well.

 
After taking a couple college stats classes I did a lot of research for a paper on baseball statistics. I chose baseball statistics because the information was more readily available and I felt the rules of baseball would be better understood by my audience. I am much more interested in learning some more about football statistics though. I see people like Chase Stuart , SSOG and others referencing statistics that I really have no understanding of what they mean. I have seen mention of things like Net Yards per Attempt as a good measure of a QB's performance, which I understand what it means but not why it is the best measure to use. I figure with a good basic knowledge of statistics it may be good to delve into things a bit deeper. What statistics do I need to focus on?Why is that a valuable statistic to look at? Where do I find the this statistics or the inputs I will need to compute it? Anything else you feel important to include as well.
Just out of curiosity, what did you find in your research on baseball? I want to forward your work to the Pirates...........
 
footballoutsiders.com has a ton of "sabermetric" stats for football.

i'm sure someone else can get more specific. as i'm interested in this as well.

 
footballoutsiders.com has a ton of "sabermetric" stats for football. i'm sure someone else can get more specific. as i'm interested in this as well.
Profootballfocus also good for this, in addition to FO.
FO and PFP have proprietary statistics. What I mean by that is they come up with their own numbers, using their own formulas, based on their own evaluation of tape. There are pros and cons to relying on these proprietary metrics. The obvious pros are that they're often more useful than regular statistics (they'll chart things like how a lineman blocks, they'll throw out meaningless plays) and they add another voice to the argument; the con is that you have no way of verifying their numbers and don't know anything about the underlying data. It's somewhat of a black hole.I think the OP wants to know about how to work with statistics that are readily available to him. For that, you don't need any advanced degrees in statistics, but it can't hurt. What you really need to do is think about football. Understand how statistics are made and then understand what's good and bad about them. One simple rule to keep in mind is divide by things that aren't really correlated with ability and add things that are.Counting stats for passers aren't great after a certain point; there is a minimum threshold of ability you need to throw for 100 career touchdowns, so you can be sure that someone with 100 career TDs was better than someone with zero. But once you get past that threshold, and look at starting quarterbacks, counting stats lose their value. And because all starting QBs come within a relatively narrow range of ability -- they'll all average between say, 5 and 8 yards per pass -- counting stats like gross passing yards are often more correlated with attempts than ability. And a QB that throws 450 passes isn't any worse than a QB that throws 600 passes. That's why I divide passing yards (and passing touchdowns and interceptions and sacks) by attempts.It's also why I disagree with people who view yards per target as a valuable metric for receivers. For a WR, yards are a good thing -- they're an indicator of quality. But so are targets -- if you have one receiver with 150 targets and one with 100 targets, more often than not, the one with more targets will be better. So I think yards per target is a bad stat if you're trying to measure quality.But once again, you need to step back with every stat you look at. Just because the statistic doesn't measure quality doesn't mean it's useless. Yards per target is pretty useless as an indicator of quality, but it can give you a more complete picture of a player's game. Someone who averages 12 yards per target is a very different receiver than one who averages 8 yards per target.
 
After taking a couple college stats classes I did a lot of research for a paper on baseball statistics. I chose baseball statistics because the information was more readily available and I felt the rules of baseball would be better understood by my audience. I am much more interested in learning some more about football statistics though. I see people like Chase Stuart , SSOG and others referencing statistics that I really have no understanding of what they mean. I have seen mention of things like Net Yards per Attempt as a good measure of a QB's performance, which I understand what it means but not why it is the best measure to use. I figure with a good basic knowledge of statistics it may be good to delve into things a bit deeper.

What statistics do I need to focus on?

Why is that a valuable statistic to look at?

Where do I find the this statistics or the inputs I will need to compute it?

Anything else you feel important to include as well.
the big difference between baseball and football is sample size, and as a statistician I'm sure you can appreciate the significance of that.even within the small set of football stats are various subsets that have to be broken out because they have such strong impact --- it gets to the point where basically you're doing more of a qualitative numerical analysis than quantitative statistical analysis..

why don't you pick an example of something you'd like to look at --- a position, team, or whatever, and people can weigh in on how they might approach it.

also, there are stats all over the place, but I think chase might be involved in this site, and it's a handy reference.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/

 
I can tell you, on the basic level, my league is not a PPR but I value touches and targets as a predictor of future success, involvement in the O has allot to do with it.

 
I think it all comes down to asking the right questions. If you can find interesting questions, you can use the stats available in the sources listed to investigate. Alternately, you could get a load of data and just sort it in ways that interest you and see what you find.

Read footballoutsiders for examples, but something that isn't football related like Freakonomics is probably a better approach to get into the right mental frame to ask good questions and tease out the answers.

Also, see what you can find out about the conference that Sports Guy calls Dorkapalooza. Here's a writeup on the people more than the ideas, but I'd imagine that there are more detailed articles as well: http://www.danshanoff.com/2010/03/sloan-sp...ence-recap.html

EDIT: More: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/360077-...l-and-4th-and-2

 
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It's also why I disagree with people who view yards per target as a valuable metric for receivers. For a WR, yards are a good thing -- they're an indicator of quality. But so are targets -- if you have one receiver with 150 targets and one with 100 targets, more often than not, the one with more targets will be better. So I think yards per target is a bad stat if you're trying to measure quality.

But once again, you need to step back with every stat you look at. Just because the statistic doesn't measure quality doesn't mean it's useless. Yards per target is pretty useless as an indicator of quality, but it can give you a more complete picture of a player's game. Someone who averages 12 yards per target is a very different receiver than one who averages 8 yards per target.
I really disagreed with your first sentence, so I'm glad you added that disclaimer in the last paragraph. Yards per target *IS* a valuable metric for receivers... but you're right that it's absolutely not a great measure of WR quality when taken in a vacuum. I would never crank out a list ranking WRs by yards per target. I think such a list would be absolutely useless. On the other hand, if one person had 1200 yards on 120 targets, and another had 1200 yards on 150 targets, then all other things being equal, clearly the first WR had a better season- if for no other reason than that he "wasted" fewer offensive plays in acquiring his stats.I don't think there's any "one metric" for WRs. DVOA is, in my experience, pretty terrible when it comes to measuring WRs. It radically overrates 2nd options (and, even more so, 3rd options) and underrates 1st options. I generally completely ignore it for anything except for identifying possible breakout candidates (emphasis on possible). Yards are very good. So are 1st downs. The per target equivalent of both stats is great at identifying who is performing efficiently in their prescribed role and who is being relatively inefficient. A combination of the four stats usually gives a very good illustration of who's great and who's not.

When evaluating receivers, I usually pay very little attention to receptions and per-reception stats. That might seem like heresy to most people, but I don't feel like receptions are a valuable statistic on their own. I feel like already looking at First Down Receptions rewards "possession receivers" enough. If a guy has 80 receptions for 1200 yards and 60 first downs, while another guy has 100/1200/60, then I don't feel like the second guy had a better year. If anything, the second guy wound up "wasting" a lot of offensive downs with receptions that didn't provide much value.

 
Over the last few years, I've really begun to appreciate targets/touches as an indicator of fantasy value, simply because if the team is actively making them among the league leaders in either, then chances are that fantasy value will follow--regardless of their actual NFL value or perceived talent level. Thus, taking WR as an example in general I prefer an elite receiver that gets 10 targets a game that gets 6 targets a game. Obviously, there are some players that generate elite numbers with fewer targets--for example, Vincent Jackson, a premier talent that catches tons of deep balls--but I find those players tend to be more inconsistent from week to week. If a 9 target person has a bad game and gets only 6, I figure he has a better chance at having a good day than a 6 going down to 3.

I apply the same philosophy to RB touches and red zone carries to a certain extent.

 
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The problem with applying sabermetric methods to football is that there are too many variables and too few data points. With baseball, particularly with pitching and hitting, you can focus on the effort of just two players, and apply corrections for things like park effects and team defense, which are to some extent isolable.

Isolating the performance of a football player is much more difficult, because each player's stats are intimately intertwined with every other player's performance. A running back's performance is reliant on his line; a QB on his receivers, a receiver's on his QB, and so on. What's more, the lack of data points makes it difficult or impossible to isolate these effects. For example, in baseball, you can isolate the effect of a team's defense from the performance of a particular pitcher, because the defense gets to play 120+ games with other starting pitchers. How many games does an offensive line play without the starting RB, or does a WR play without his starting QB? We wind up drawing conclusions from extremely paltry data sets. Desean Jackson had a total of maybe 20 targets in three games from Kolb, and people are trying to project from that how he'll do without McNabb starting, which is about as useful as predicting someone's slugging percentage for the season based on 20 at-bats.

Lots of people come up with football numbers which look like sabermetrics, but be wary of their hidden assumptions and lack of disclosure around sample sizes and weak correlations.

 
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the big difference between baseball and football is sample size,
2009 Albert Pujols AB 5682009 Drew Brees Attempts 514 There's a difference, yes - Pujols is facing more than 1 pitch per at bat, but it's not as significant as its made out to be.Above post by CalBear is more relevant on differences to baseball when it comes to application of football sabermetrics.
 
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the big difference between baseball and football is sample size,
2009 Albert Pujols AB 5682009 Drew Brees Attempts 514 There's a difference, yes - Pujols is facing more than 1 pitch per at bat, but it's not as significant as its made out to be.Above post by CalBear is more relevant on differences to baseball when it comes to application of football sabermetrics.
One more point: Pujols' at-bats are more comparable to each other than Brees' pass attempts are. That is, Pujols' chance of getting on base are more or less the same whether he's batting with two outs and no one on in the first inning, or with no outs and the bases loaded in the ninth. It's also more or less the same whether the game is tied, or his team is up by 10. Furthermore, there are enough at-bats in the league in different hitting situations to make informed adjustments for those situations; if you can measure that hitters have lower slugging percentage but higher on-base percentage with the bases loaded, you can use that to adjust for the performance of an individual player in those situations.Drew Brees, on the other hand, is playing a much more dynamic game, and the situations in which his pass attempts occur vary wildly compared to Pujols' at-bats: field position, down and distance, game score, and time remaining have significant effects on his likelihood of completing a pass. Plus, the plethora of game situations and limited number of games make it difficult or impossible to correct for those effects.
 
On the other hand, if one person had 1200 yards on 120 targets, and another had 1200 yards on 150 targets, then all other things being equal, clearly the first WR had a better season- if for no other reason than that he "wasted" fewer offensive plays in acquiring his stats.
Well, if all other things are equal, then we can assume that both players played in the same number of games and played in the same number of passing snaps. And if that's the case, I don't agree with you. I think the second receiver was probably the better player; on 150 plays, he at least got open. A target without a reception isn't a "wasted" offensive play any more than a play without a target. If a receiver doesn't get open on a bunch of plays, he's not helping his team at all. If you get open all the time, you're going to get more targets. If you don't get open all the time, QBs might only throw to you when you're wide open, inflating your per target numbers.The bottom line for me is that, more often than not, a target is a good thing. It means you're doing something right. Obviously we're talking "on average" here -- it doesn't always mean you're doing something right. Additionally, if you only have 90 targets on the season, absent something crazy, you probably aren't an elite receiver.
 
It's also why I disagree with people who view yards per target as a valuable metric for receivers. For a WR, yards are a good thing -- they're an indicator of quality. But so are targets -- if you have one receiver with 150 targets and one with 100 targets, more often than not, the one with more targets will be better. So I think yards per target is a bad stat if you're trying to measure quality.

But once again, you need to step back with every stat you look at. Just because the statistic doesn't measure quality doesn't mean it's useless. Yards per target is pretty useless as an indicator of quality, but it can give you a more complete picture of a player's game. Someone who averages 12 yards per target is a very different receiver than one who averages 8 yards per target.
I really disagreed with your first sentence, so I'm glad you added that disclaimer in the last paragraph. Yards per target *IS* a valuable metric for receivers... but you're right that it's absolutely not a great measure of WR quality when taken in a vacuum. I would never crank out a list ranking WRs by yards per target. I think such a list would be absolutely useless. On the other hand, if one person had 1200 yards on 120 targets, and another had 1200 yards on 150 targets, then all other things being equal, clearly the first WR had a better season- if for no other reason than that he "wasted" fewer offensive plays in acquiring his stats.I don't think there's any "one metric" for WRs. DVOA is, in my experience, pretty terrible when it comes to measuring WRs. It radically overrates 2nd options (and, even more so, 3rd options) and underrates 1st options. I generally completely ignore it for anything except for identifying possible breakout candidates (emphasis on possible). Yards are very good. So are 1st downs. The per target equivalent of both stats is great at identifying who is performing efficiently in their prescribed role and who is being relatively inefficient. A combination of the four stats usually gives a very good illustration of who's great and who's not.

When evaluating receivers, I usually pay very little attention to receptions and per-reception stats. That might seem like heresy to most people, but I don't feel like receptions are a valuable statistic on their own. I feel like already looking at First Down Receptions rewards "possession receivers" enough. If a guy has 80 receptions for 1200 yards and 60 first downs, while another guy has 100/1200/60, then I don't feel like the second guy had a better year. If anything, the second guy wound up "wasting" a lot of offensive downs with receptions that didn't provide much value.
He may have had a "better" season, but I would take the latter on my fantasy team. DeSean Jackson is a good example. While he had a great season on relatively few targets and receptions, I feel like he is much more prone to a drop off than someone who had the same stats on many more targets. The reason is regression. Can DeSean really sustain an 18.5 ypc average? Can he really sustain 1 TD for every 7 receptions? I have my doubts. So unless his targets increase substantially, I feel like he is at a great risk of regressing this season. While he's easy to fall in love with because of his big plays and dynamic ability.... you can't ignore the math.On what Chase said (I didn't read it until after I posted)... I think what you said is not always the case. Again with the DeSean example: I don't think it's a matter of not getting open all of the time. Sometimes, your speedy play makers can do more with less targets as their plays are set up throughout the game and called at the right time to give them the best opportunity to make a big play. There are plenty of receivers that fit this role. Robert Meachem, Kevin Ogletree, Mike Wallace (last year)... their number is called less frequently, but they have the ability to do more with those opportunities.

 
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The most useful stat, in a nutshell, would be some type of ratio that tells you how productive a player is, based on the tools he had available. This is the hardest part about evaluating incoming rookies. Sure they looked good on film, but how good was his o-line? But what type of competition was he facing? How good was his QB? Did he have a gimicky coordinator? Did his defense suck so they were always in shootouts? Was his defense great so he had less opportunity to put up stats? Were his running backs studly so the play calling was biased?

Archie Manning for the Saints vs Peyton Manning for the Colts. Whos better? Who knows.

How good is Cedric Benson? Would Shonn Green have been any good in Chicago? What would Lee Evans career have looked like in Arizona the past few years? How do we know if Henne is any good until we see him in a passing offense with weapons to throw to?

A teams #3 receiver goes down and the QB stats fall off a cliff (Chris Henry/Palmer). Favre gets plugged into the right system with the right talent at age 40 and has one of his best years.

So many variables, and they affect stats so much. I think the closest anyone has come to simulating all of these stats at once is the Madden video game, lol.

Still, good luck with this.

 
footballsavvy said:
It's also why I disagree with people who view yards per target as a valuable metric for receivers. For a WR, yards are a good thing -- they're an indicator of quality. But so are targets -- if you have one receiver with 150 targets and one with 100 targets, more often than not, the one with more targets will be better. So I think yards per target is a bad stat if you're trying to measure quality.

But once again, you need to step back with every stat you look at. Just because the statistic doesn't measure quality doesn't mean it's useless. Yards per target is pretty useless as an indicator of quality, but it can give you a more complete picture of a player's game. Someone who averages 12 yards per target is a very different receiver than one who averages 8 yards per target.
I really disagreed with your first sentence, so I'm glad you added that disclaimer in the last paragraph. Yards per target *IS* a valuable metric for receivers... but you're right that it's absolutely not a great measure of WR quality when taken in a vacuum. I would never crank out a list ranking WRs by yards per target. I think such a list would be absolutely useless. On the other hand, if one person had 1200 yards on 120 targets, and another had 1200 yards on 150 targets, then all other things being equal, clearly the first WR had a better season- if for no other reason than that he "wasted" fewer offensive plays in acquiring his stats.But I agree with all of you that yards per reception is not nearly as significant as overall targets, for example, in projecting future WR value.

I don't think there's any "one metric" for WRs. DVOA is, in my experience, pretty terrible when it comes to measuring WRs. It radically overrates 2nd options (and, even more so, 3rd options) and underrates 1st options. I generally completely ignore it for anything except for identifying possible breakout candidates (emphasis on possible). Yards are very good. So are 1st downs. The per target equivalent of both stats is great at identifying who is performing efficiently in their prescribed role and who is being relatively inefficient. A combination of the four stats usually gives a very good illustration of who's great and who's not.

When evaluating receivers, I usually pay very little attention to receptions and per-reception stats. That might seem like heresy to most people, but I don't feel like receptions are a valuable statistic on their own. I feel like already looking at First Down Receptions rewards "possession receivers" enough. If a guy has 80 receptions for 1200 yards and 60 first downs, while another guy has 100/1200/60, then I don't feel like the second guy had a better year. If anything, the second guy wound up "wasting" a lot of offensive downs with receptions that didn't provide much value.
He may have had a "better" season, but I would take the latter on my fantasy team. DeSean Jackson is a good example. While he had a great season on relatively few targets and receptions, I feel like he is much more prone to a drop off than someone who had the same stats on many more targets. The reason is regression. Can DeSean really sustain an 18.5 ypc average? Can he really sustain 1 TD for every 7 receptions? I have my doubts. So unless his targets increase substantially, I feel like he is at a great risk of regressing this season. While he's easy to fall in love with because of his big plays and dynamic ability.... you can't ignore the math.On what Chase said (I didn't read it until after I posted)... I think what you said is not always the case. Again with the DeSean example: I don't think it's a matter of not getting open all of the time. Sometimes, your speedy play makers can do more with less targets as their plays are set up throughout the game and called at the right time to give them the best opportunity to make a big play. There are plenty of receivers that fit this role. Robert Meachem, Kevin Ogletree, Mike Wallace (last year)... their number is called less frequently, but they have the ability to do more with those opportunities.
On the which-guy-do-you-want front (which I assume is the significant question following from these stats having been generated by 2 WRs), don't you have to temper your assumption of increased value based on consistency from the greater number of targets with the greater likelihood that the guy getting his on fewer targets will increase his targets next year? I mean, don't you imagine for 2 guys getting 1,200 yards on receptions, its more likely the guy only targeted 120 times will increase his target number more than the guy who already got 150? I sure would want to throw more often to the guy who gained more yards per target (and less to the guy who gained fewer yards per target) if I were designing an offensive plan for the next season. Implied consistency not withstanding, I tend to favor more yards per target over fewer when looking ahead.

But I agree with all of you that targets (or just plain yards) are far better stats from which to project WR value than yards per target.

 
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...What statistics do I need to focus on?Why is that a valuable statistic to look at? Where do I find the this statistics or the inputs I will need to compute it? Anything else you feel important to include as well.
Something I think worth mentioning in a similar vein to what Chase was saying about understanding what a statistic is telling you. I've seen a lot of times when someone will want to predict something. Let's say, kicker fantasy points. And they think to themselves, "What makes sense as a predictor? Well, red zone scoring, total yards, first downs, third down conversions... those all seems like they would factor into moving the ball into field goal range or punching it in, so I'll use those."But they don't take the time to actually determine whether each factor they thought of actually is a good predictor of what they want to predict. Sometimes there are things that it would make sense to us would be a good predictor, but the two factors don't really correlate with each other. Including it doesn't do anything more useful than including a random number in the formula or system they come up with.So if you want to investigate/predict one stat using another, at least take a look before you begin and see how they relate to each other. Find a correlation coefficient for each predictor you're considering and see how well they actually do relate to each other.
 
On the other hand, if one person had 1200 yards on 120 targets, and another had 1200 yards on 150 targets, then all other things being equal, clearly the first WR had a better season- if for no other reason than that he "wasted" fewer offensive plays in acquiring his stats.
Well, if all other things are equal, then we can assume that both players played in the same number of games and played in the same number of passing snaps. And if that's the case, I don't agree with you. I think the second receiver was probably the better player; on 150 plays, he at least got open. A target without a reception isn't a "wasted" offensive play any more than a play without a target. If a receiver doesn't get open on a bunch of plays, he's not helping his team at all. If you get open all the time, you're going to get more targets. If you don't get open all the time, QBs might only throw to you when you're wide open, inflating your per target numbers.The bottom line for me is that, more often than not, a target is a good thing. It means you're doing something right. Obviously we're talking "on average" here -- it doesn't always mean you're doing something right. Additionally, if you only have 90 targets on the season, absent something crazy, you probably aren't an elite receiver.
We're talking about different things. You say that the player who produced with more targets is probably the better player. I'm saying that the player who produced with fewer targets had the better season. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.Let's say that you knew ahead of time that a QB was going to throw the ball 500 times. If he had the first receiver on his team, then he'd already have 1200 yards with 380 passes left to distribute. If he had the second receiver, he'd have the same 1200 yards... but he'd only have 350 passes left to distribute. Assuming both receivers resulted in the same number of first downs, touchdowns, etc... I'd say it's pretty clear that the first receiver did more to help the offense. He had a better season.Now, you're also right that the fact that receiver2 was targeted 150 times is telling. It suggests that he's probably a fantastic talent, because more often than not you don't get target totals like that without being an elite receiver (Chris Chambers notwithstanding). Still, while he may be a great talent, he did not help the offense as much as Receiver1 did, whether Receiver1 was a lesser talent or not.Look at Chris Chambers again. Over the 2005-2006 seasons, Chambers had a whopping 310 targets (and 20 more rushing attempts, for good measure). Of course, he caught substantially less than 50% of them, killed countless drives, and basically just held the offense back. The fact that he got those target totals indicate that he was the most talented WR on the entire team (or, at least, the QB and the coaches thought he was)... but that doesn't mean he had the best season of any WR on the team. In fact, I strongly believe that Miami's offense would have been substantially better if they'd just stopped throwing to Chris Chambers so dang much.Basically, what it boils down to is this- if all factors except for targets were held constant, would you prefer a WR with a low yard per target value, or a high yard per target value? Looked at through that prism, I don't think there's any way you could categorically say that lower ypt receivers beat higher ypt receivers. I mean, taking that train of thought to its logical extreme, the best receiver in history would be one that got 100 targets and only got 10 receiving yards out of them. I can understand viewing ypt as a neutral stat, or I could see using it as a "minimum threshold" type stat (i.e. once a receiver reaches a minimum threshold, ypt becomes a neutral stat, but below that threshold it serves as a negative indicator). I just can't understand establishing a straight up inverse relationship between YPT and WR quality.In fact, I generally use both targets and ypt as a "minimum threshold" type stat. If you had under 100 targets, I don't really care what your ypt was, because you were a role player- all ypt tells is us how well suited you were for that particular role, it doesn't tell us anything about how well you'd do in an increased role (see: Henderson, Devery). If you had under, let's say, 6 ypt, then I don't really care what your target total was, because you were a hindrance to the offense- all targets tell us is whether you hurt the offense a little bit, or whether you hurt it a lot (see: Chambers, Chris). Provided a player meets both minimum thresholds (at least 100 targets and at least 6 ypt), then I think you've got a decent apples-to-apples comparison on your hands. Obviously I'm just throwing random "for instance" numbers out there for the minimum threshold- there would be much better, much more scientific methods to establish some reasonable minimum thresholds- but I think the concept is solid. Provided both receivers topped the minimum target threshold, ypt is a good way to differentiate between the two of them. Provided both receivers topped the minimum ypt threshold, total targets is a good way to differentiate between the two of them.Of course, then at the end of the day you have to account for supporting cast and strength of schedule somehow, too. Obviously measuring football players strictly through the prism of statistics is very complicated and filled with tons of potential landmines, which is why I always toss around my favorite phrase- I don't use statistics to form my opinions, I use them to inform my opinions. I would never look at some statistical ranking and draw some sweeping conclusions from it. If Santonio Holmes has a better ypt than Hines Ward, for instance, I wouldn't take that to mean that Holmes was better. If Ward had more targets, I wouldn't take that to mean that Ward was better. If I created some sort of "receiver quality" stat that was an amalgamation of every single stat I could get my hands on, I still wouldn't take that stat as gospel. If, however, that stat was telling me that I might be underrating a particular receiver, I would make a point of watching that receiver play a bit and trying to identify just why, exactly, my perceptions differed so much from what the stat was telling me. Sometimes I watch a guy and find out I was wrong about him- statistics are a great tool to bring a guy to my attention who I otherwise might not have given a second thought to. Other times I watch the guy and just feel like the statistic is dramatically overrating him. Either way, while the statistics do play a big part in the conclusions that I draw, I would never just take the statistic and substitute it directly for my conclusions. Maybe stats will be there someday, but as of today, there's no stat that's a substitute for the human ability to evaluate. A supplement, yes. A substitute, no.
 
Back to the OP and some comments made here about 'the right' statistics...

I'd recommend baseball book Moneyball, and this is coming from a guy who can't switch the channel fast enough when I see/hear anything baseball. It is a nice 'contrarian' way of viewing baseball statistics. Basically, Billy Beane and crew made player decisions strictly on stats that would help them win. Case in point: they valued guys who could get walked much more than the sexy base stealers, as stealing bases looked cool but didn't correlate to wins.

I think that teams like the Patriots have applied this to the NFL. They focus on role players, and as a result, can sit and pay less for these guys in the 2nd and later rounds. There's alot more to that, but it's my view that they focus on different stats/player-types than other teams.

Lots of interesting discussion here about NFL stats. For Fantasy, I have a fairly simplistic view. I agree with the concept of touches and targets as a predictor of individual success of RBs and WRs. For QBs, I tend to prefer completion percentage and overall offensive philosophy of the team.

There's alot of work that can be done with coming up with more complex metrics; but fundamentally, opportunities and total yards most likely correlate with 'success' in terms of how a RB or WR contributes to their team (and their own point values). Touchdowns are really hard to predict, but most of my leagues are yard/PPR heavy, so it doesn't affect me as much.

 
On the other hand, if one person had 1200 yards on 120 targets, and another had 1200 yards on 150 targets, then all other things being equal, clearly the first WR had a better season- if for no other reason than that he "wasted" fewer offensive plays in acquiring his stats.
Well, if all other things are equal, then we can assume that both players played in the same number of games and played in the same number of passing snaps. And if that's the case, I don't agree with you. I think the second receiver was probably the better player; on 150 plays, he at least got open. A target without a reception isn't a "wasted" offensive play any more than a play without a target. If a receiver doesn't get open on a bunch of plays, he's not helping his team at all. If you get open all the time, you're going to get more targets. If you don't get open all the time, QBs might only throw to you when you're wide open, inflating your per target numbers.The bottom line for me is that, more often than not, a target is a good thing. It means you're doing something right. Obviously we're talking "on average" here -- it doesn't always mean you're doing something right. Additionally, if you only have 90 targets on the season, absent something crazy, you probably aren't an elite receiver.
We're talking about different things. You say that the player who produced with more targets is probably the better player. I'm saying that the player who produced with fewer targets had the better season. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.Let's say that you knew ahead of time that a QB was going to throw the ball 500 times. If he had the first receiver on his team, then he'd already have 1200 yards with 380 passes left to distribute. If he had the second receiver, he'd have the same 1200 yards... but he'd only have 350 passes left to distribute. Assuming both receivers resulted in the same number of first downs, touchdowns, etc... I'd say it's pretty clear that the first receiver did more to help the offense. He had a better season.

Now, you're also right that the fact that receiver2 was targeted 150 times is telling. It suggests that he's probably a fantastic talent, because more often than not you don't get target totals like that without being an elite receiver (Chris Chambers notwithstanding). Still, while he may be a great talent, he did not help the offense as much as Receiver1 did, whether Receiver1 was a lesser talent or not.

Look at Chris Chambers again. Over the 2005-2006 seasons, Chambers had a whopping 310 targets (and 20 more rushing attempts, for good measure). Of course, he caught substantially less than 50% of them, killed countless drives, and basically just held the offense back. The fact that he got those target totals indicate that he was the most talented WR on the entire team (or, at least, the QB and the coaches thought he was)... but that doesn't mean he had the best season of any WR on the team. In fact, I strongly believe that Miami's offense would have been substantially better if they'd just stopped throwing to Chris Chambers so dang much.

Basically, what it boils down to is this- if all factors except for targets were held constant, would you prefer a WR with a low yard per target value, or a high yard per target value? Looked at through that prism, I don't think there's any way you could categorically say that lower ypt receivers beat higher ypt receivers. I mean, taking that train of thought to its logical extreme, the best receiver in history would be one that got 100 targets and only got 10 receiving yards out of them. I can understand viewing ypt as a neutral stat, or I could see using it as a "minimum threshold" type stat (i.e. once a receiver reaches a minimum threshold, ypt becomes a neutral stat, but below that threshold it serves as a negative indicator). I just can't understand establishing a straight up inverse relationship between YPT and WR quality.

In fact, I generally use both targets and ypt as a "minimum threshold" type stat. If you had under 100 targets, I don't really care what your ypt was, because you were a role player- all ypt tells is us how well suited you were for that particular role, it doesn't tell us anything about how well you'd do in an increased role (see: Henderson, Devery). If you had under, let's say, 6 ypt, then I don't really care what your target total was, because you were a hindrance to the offense- all targets tell us is whether you hurt the offense a little bit, or whether you hurt it a lot (see: Chambers, Chris). Provided a player meets both minimum thresholds (at least 100 targets and at least 6 ypt), then I think you've got a decent apples-to-apples comparison on your hands. Obviously I'm just throwing random "for instance" numbers out there for the minimum threshold- there would be much better, much more scientific methods to establish some reasonable minimum thresholds- but I think the concept is solid. Provided both receivers topped the minimum target threshold, ypt is a good way to differentiate between the two of them. Provided both receivers topped the minimum ypt threshold, total targets is a good way to differentiate between the two of them.

Of course, then at the end of the day you have to account for supporting cast and strength of schedule somehow, too. Obviously measuring football players strictly through the prism of statistics is very complicated and filled with tons of potential landmines, which is why I always toss around my favorite phrase- I don't use statistics to form my opinions, I use them to inform my opinions. I would never look at some statistical ranking and draw some sweeping conclusions from it. If Santonio Holmes has a better ypt than Hines Ward, for instance, I wouldn't take that to mean that Holmes was better. If Ward had more targets, I wouldn't take that to mean that Ward was better. If I created some sort of "receiver quality" stat that was an amalgamation of every single stat I could get my hands on, I still wouldn't take that stat as gospel. If, however, that stat was telling me that I might be underrating a particular receiver, I would make a point of watching that receiver play a bit and trying to identify just why, exactly, my perceptions differed so much from what the stat was telling me. Sometimes I watch a guy and find out I was wrong about him- statistics are a great tool to bring a guy to my attention who I otherwise might not have given a second thought to. Other times I watch the guy and just feel like the statistic is dramatically overrating him. Either way, while the statistics do play a big part in the conclusions that I draw, I would never just take the statistic and substitute it directly for my conclusions. Maybe stats will be there someday, but as of today, there's no stat that's a substitute for the human ability to evaluate. A supplement, yes. A substitute, no.
Well that's not what I'm doing -- I don't think there's much relationship between yards per target and anything. It's like yards per touchdown. Do you think yards per touchdown is a useful statistic for WRs? Yards, touchdowns and targets are all correlated with quality, and that's why I don't put them in the denominator; so I'm not establishing an inverse relationship between the two.I used to think the way you did about targets that don't result in catches as "wasted plays." But I no longer do; I think it's unrealistic to assume that you have 30 more "free" plays with the WR who achieved the same amount of yards on the same number of targets.

I think a great stat would be yards per passing down. Now THAT would be something I would like to use to divide yards by, because being on the field (at least among the top 30 or 40 WRs in the league) isn't indicative of quality. In that case, it would be interesting to see who achieved the most yards per passing play; and it's that same sort of thinking which leads me to believe those 30 "free" plays only exist in theory. Because in reality, that WR was probably on the field for all of those 30 plays, and just didn't get open.

 
On the other hand, if one person had 1200 yards on 120 targets, and another had 1200 yards on 150 targets, then all other things being equal, clearly the first WR had a better season- if for no other reason than that he "wasted" fewer offensive plays in acquiring his stats.
Well, if all other things are equal, then we can assume that both players played in the same number of games and played in the same number of passing snaps. And if that's the case, I don't agree with you. I think the second receiver was probably the better player; on 150 plays, he at least got open. A target without a reception isn't a "wasted" offensive play any more than a play without a target. If a receiver doesn't get open on a bunch of plays, he's not helping his team at all. If you get open all the time, you're going to get more targets. If you don't get open all the time, QBs might only throw to you when you're wide open, inflating your per target numbers.The bottom line for me is that, more often than not, a target is a good thing. It means you're doing something right. Obviously we're talking "on average" here -- it doesn't always mean you're doing something right. Additionally, if you only have 90 targets on the season, absent something crazy, you probably aren't an elite receiver.
We're talking about different things. You say that the player who produced with more targets is probably the better player. I'm saying that the player who produced with fewer targets had the better season. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.Let's say that you knew ahead of time that a QB was going to throw the ball 500 times. If he had the first receiver on his team, then he'd already have 1200 yards with 380 passes left to distribute. If he had the second receiver, he'd have the same 1200 yards... but he'd only have 350 passes left to distribute. Assuming both receivers resulted in the same number of first downs, touchdowns, etc... I'd say it's pretty clear that the first receiver did more to help the offense. He had a better season.

Now, you're also right that the fact that receiver2 was targeted 150 times is telling. It suggests that he's probably a fantastic talent, because more often than not you don't get target totals like that without being an elite receiver (Chris Chambers notwithstanding). Still, while he may be a great talent, he did not help the offense as much as Receiver1 did, whether Receiver1 was a lesser talent or not.

Look at Chris Chambers again. Over the 2005-2006 seasons, Chambers had a whopping 310 targets (and 20 more rushing attempts, for good measure). Of course, he caught substantially less than 50% of them, killed countless drives, and basically just held the offense back. The fact that he got those target totals indicate that he was the most talented WR on the entire team (or, at least, the QB and the coaches thought he was)... but that doesn't mean he had the best season of any WR on the team. In fact, I strongly believe that Miami's offense would have been substantially better if they'd just stopped throwing to Chris Chambers so dang much.

Basically, what it boils down to is this- if all factors except for targets were held constant, would you prefer a WR with a low yard per target value, or a high yard per target value? Looked at through that prism, I don't think there's any way you could categorically say that lower ypt receivers beat higher ypt receivers. I mean, taking that train of thought to its logical extreme, the best receiver in history would be one that got 100 targets and only got 10 receiving yards out of them. I can understand viewing ypt as a neutral stat, or I could see using it as a "minimum threshold" type stat (i.e. once a receiver reaches a minimum threshold, ypt becomes a neutral stat, but below that threshold it serves as a negative indicator). I just can't understand establishing a straight up inverse relationship between YPT and WR quality.

In fact, I generally use both targets and ypt as a "minimum threshold" type stat. If you had under 100 targets, I don't really care what your ypt was, because you were a role player- all ypt tells is us how well suited you were for that particular role, it doesn't tell us anything about how well you'd do in an increased role (see: Henderson, Devery). If you had under, let's say, 6 ypt, then I don't really care what your target total was, because you were a hindrance to the offense- all targets tell us is whether you hurt the offense a little bit, or whether you hurt it a lot (see: Chambers, Chris). Provided a player meets both minimum thresholds (at least 100 targets and at least 6 ypt), then I think you've got a decent apples-to-apples comparison on your hands. Obviously I'm just throwing random "for instance" numbers out there for the minimum threshold- there would be much better, much more scientific methods to establish some reasonable minimum thresholds- but I think the concept is solid. Provided both receivers topped the minimum target threshold, ypt is a good way to differentiate between the two of them. Provided both receivers topped the minimum ypt threshold, total targets is a good way to differentiate between the two of them.

Of course, then at the end of the day you have to account for supporting cast and strength of schedule somehow, too. Obviously measuring football players strictly through the prism of statistics is very complicated and filled with tons of potential landmines, which is why I always toss around my favorite phrase- I don't use statistics to form my opinions, I use them to inform my opinions. I would never look at some statistical ranking and draw some sweeping conclusions from it. If Santonio Holmes has a better ypt than Hines Ward, for instance, I wouldn't take that to mean that Holmes was better. If Ward had more targets, I wouldn't take that to mean that Ward was better. If I created some sort of "receiver quality" stat that was an amalgamation of every single stat I could get my hands on, I still wouldn't take that stat as gospel. If, however, that stat was telling me that I might be underrating a particular receiver, I would make a point of watching that receiver play a bit and trying to identify just why, exactly, my perceptions differed so much from what the stat was telling me. Sometimes I watch a guy and find out I was wrong about him- statistics are a great tool to bring a guy to my attention who I otherwise might not have given a second thought to. Other times I watch the guy and just feel like the statistic is dramatically overrating him. Either way, while the statistics do play a big part in the conclusions that I draw, I would never just take the statistic and substitute it directly for my conclusions. Maybe stats will be there someday, but as of today, there's no stat that's a substitute for the human ability to evaluate. A supplement, yes. A substitute, no.
Well that's not what I'm doing -- I don't think there's much relationship between yards per target and anything. It's like yards per touchdown. Do you think yards per touchdown is a useful statistic for WRs? Yards, touchdowns and targets are all correlated with quality, and that's why I don't put them in the denominator; so I'm not establishing an inverse relationship between the two.I used to think the way you did about targets that don't result in catches as "wasted plays." But I no longer do; I think it's unrealistic to assume that you have 30 more "free" plays with the WR who achieved the same amount of yards on the same number of targets.

I think a great stat would be yards per passing down. Now THAT would be something I would like to use to divide yards by, because being on the field (at least among the top 30 or 40 WRs in the league) isn't indicative of quality. In that case, it would be interesting to see who achieved the most yards per passing play; and it's that same sort of thinking which leads me to believe those 30 "free" plays only exist in theory. Because in reality, that WR was probably on the field for all of those 30 plays, and just didn't get open.
:lmao:
 
I used to think the way you did about targets
Which strikingly handsome and enormously talented math teacher was it who changed your mind?
I think it's unrealistic to assume that you have 30 more "free" plays with the WR who achieved the same amount of yards on the same number of targets.
Yeah, that's the key. It's tempting to reason like, "30 pass attempts times an NFL average of 6.5 yards per attempt is 195 yards the other guy would have got with those targets." But not only can we not assume those 30 attempts were "average" attempts, we in fact KNOW that they were NOT average pass attempts. In particular, we know they were incompletions. If we assume they were "average" incompletions, then the question becomes:On an average incomplete pass, how many yards would it have gotten if it had been thrown to another player?I have zero basis for this, but I'd guess it's around a yard or two. Based on that total WAG, I might go for something like Yards - 1.5(targets - receptions) as an indicator of quality that takes target efficiency into account in some way.
 
Here are some issues with yards per target as a metric for WR performance, which gets at some of the fundamental issues with measuring stats in football.

First, you have WR catch percentage; what percentage of a receiver's targets result in completions? Some of the variables which go into that equation are related to the WR's performance, such as:

[*]How well he runs his route, getting to the right place at the right time

[*]How much separation he's gotten from his defender

[*]How he uses his body to shield the defender

[*]Jumping ability

[*]How he uses his hands to catch the ball

But a number of factors are outside of his control, such as:

[*]Route difficulty (short routes are completed more often than long routes)

[*]Pass accuracy

[*]Defensive scheme (double-team, zone, Asomugha factor)

Then for the passes which are completed, there are a few things within the WR's control, such as:

[*]Ability to transition from catching into running

[*]Speed

[*]Open-field moves

[*]Vision

But a lot more than he can't control, such as:

[*]Accuracy of pass (did it hit him in stride?)

[*]Type of route

[*]Defensive scheme

Basically, if Jerry Rice has Joe Montana throwing him the ball, and he's lined up in single coverage against a LB or safety, he should have huge catch percentage and YAC numbers. If he's got Elvis Grbac throwing him the ball, and he's lined up against Deion Sanders with safety help over the top, his catch percentage and YAC numbers will be a lot lower. Either way, he's the best WR ever to play the game, but there are a lot of variables he can't control, and it's difficult to isolate the numbers which represent his personal contribution to the yards-per-target stat.

 
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Well that's not what I'm doing -- I don't think there's much relationship between yards per target and anything. It's like yards per touchdown. Do you think yards per touchdown is a useful statistic for WRs? Yards, touchdowns and targets are all correlated with quality, and that's why I don't put them in the denominator; so I'm not establishing an inverse relationship between the two.

I used to think the way you did about targets that don't result in catches as "wasted plays." But I no longer do; I think it's unrealistic to assume that you have 30 more "free" plays with the WR who achieved the same amount of yards on the same number of targets.

I think a great stat would be yards per passing down. Now THAT would be something I would like to use to divide yards by, because being on the field (at least among the top 30 or 40 WRs in the league) isn't indicative of quality. In that case, it would be interesting to see who achieved the most yards per passing play; and it's that same sort of thinking which leads me to believe those 30 "free" plays only exist in theory. Because in reality, that WR was probably on the field for all of those 30 plays, and just didn't get open.
You can't assume that a WR didn't get open just because he wasn't targeted. Maybe he did get open, but the QB didn't see him because another WR got open, too. Maybe he was more open than the other WR but the QB went to the other guy because he perceived the other guy as better. Maybe he didn't get open because he was facing tougher coverages. Maybe it was a blitz and he wasn't the hot read. There are lots of reasons why a WR didn't get targeted other than "he wasn't open", and all of it is very subjective and impossible to measure. As a result, we can either assume that targets are always a positive even when they don't help the offense any (and, consequently, assume that Chris Chambers was one of the biggest studs of the last decade because he was a target MONSTER), or we can do something like Drinen was suggesting and create a small penalty for targets that don't result in production. I don't think the penalty needs to be huge or anything, but I do think it's crazy to suggest that a WR who had 1200 yards and 60 first downs on 150 targets had a better season than a WR who produced the exact same stats on 120 targets.
Here are some issues with yards per target as a metric for WR performance, which gets at some of the fundamental issues with measuring stats in football.

First, you have WR catch percentage; what percentage of a receiver's targets result in completions? Some of the variables which go into that equation are related to the WR's performance, such as:

[*]How well he runs his route, getting to the right place at the right time

[*]How much separation he's gotten from his defender

[*]How he uses his body to shield the defender

[*]Jumping ability

[*]How he uses his hands to catch the ball

But a number of factors are outside of his control, such as:

[*]Route difficulty (short routes are completed more often than long routes)

[*]Pass accuracy

[*]Defensive scheme (double-team, zone, Asomugha factor)

Then for the passes which are completed, there are a few things within the WR's control, such as:

[*]Ability to transition from catching into running

[*]Speed

[*]Open-field moves

[*]Vision

But a lot more than he can't control, such as:

[*]Accuracy of pass (did it hit him in stride?)

[*]Type of route

[*]Defensive scheme

Basically, if Jerry Rice has Joe Montana throwing him the ball, and he's lined up in single coverage against a LB or safety, he should have huge catch percentage and YAC numbers. If he's got Elvis Grbac throwing him the ball, and he's lined up against Deion Sanders with safety help over the top, his catch percentage and YAC numbers will be a lot lower. Either way, he's the best WR ever to play the game, but there are a lot of variables he can't control, and they're difficult to isolate the numbers which represent his personal contribution to the yards-per-target stat.
Great summary, and a huge reason why my unofficial slogan is "I don't use stats to form my opinions, I use them to inform my opinions".
 
Lots of good information, exactly what I was looking for. In my 8 or so years playing fantasy football, I have never really been much of a stat person. I have yet to do a single set of projections. While I understand they are a useful tool for some people, I have always figured my time is better spent in other areas. I watch tons of football, both pro and college, so I draft primarily off of my instinct. I do think it would be beneficial to adopt the approach SSOG has advocated. Don't make decisions off of the statistics, use them to reinforce or question opinions that I already held. I appreciate all the responses so far.

 

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