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The Clay Mathews “Roughing” Call... (1 Viewer)

Todem said:
He hit him literally right after he released the ball. They are paid to charge in full bore to take down QB's. YOu can;t expefct 265-285 pound men to magically hit the brakes and defy the laws of energy, weight and gravity.

It's not possible.

They really need to simply put a red jersey on every QB and make it two hand touch with sacks on the QB. This rule they have right now along with the "brady" rule simply is not working.

You can't tackle the QB anymore.

The league is becoming a joke with paralysis by analysis of rules and interpretations of rules on tackles on QB's, what is or what is not a catch. The constant replays of every single important play.

Pure fodder now.
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Sokath, his eyes opened!

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Except it's not. Matthews doesn't put his hand out until Cousins is on the ground. 
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My point especially considering what the OP has posted would be that Clay sure seemed to make the most of his effort meaning that he skillfully calculated his action whether by preplanning or on the spot  Personally I believe driving the QB into the ground needs to be limited which means there needs to be some caution observed for any play with near similar results  Probably best Ref's be given free reign to make a judgement call 

 
I think what is being missed here is the vast difference of the point of the rule in the first place and it's interpretation yesterday.  They wanted to prevent hits like the one that Barr put on Rodgers last year.  Please look at both of these images.  

http://brainerddispatch.com/sports/football/4497801-one-year-later-vikings-anthony-barr-vs-aaron-rodgers-just-another-game

http://www.theherdnow.com/video-aaron-rodgers-carted-field-with-possible-broken-collarbone/

Now compare that to what happened yesterday.  They are worlds apart.  Installing a rule to prevent what happened last year is good for the game.  Taking it to the point where Kendricks and Matthews got penalized yesterday is about 5 steps too far.  

 
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"a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight."

To me, looks like Clay adhered to each aspect of what he needed to do:

1) Did not unnecessarily OR violently throw the QB on the ground

2) Did not land on top of the QB with all or most of his weight

3) Was using his arms in the tackle -- from replays, looks to me like it was his right arm, not his right shoulder, that made the most (and initial) contact

4) Specifically used his arm to prevent himself from landing on the QB with all/most of his body weight.

Certainly no lifting or driving into the ground. Clay's torso does tilt down towards the ground while making contact but not clear to me at all whether this was caused by the trajectory of Cousin's body (which Clay had one arm around) or any other reason.

The fact that Corrente initially used the "lifting up and driving into the ground" explanation of why it was called further calls the whole call into question, as it colors the refs themselves as not knowing/seeing what they are purportedly calling.

I feel for Matthews here, as well as any DLineman -- if this is truly the trajectory the NFL wants, they should simply abolish sacks and not do it by incoherent and inexplicable/indefensible half measures, as these kind of flags call into question the entire credibility of the rules.

 
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The refs are gong to mess up when asking them to make this type of on field judgements live at full speed. 

The linemen shouldn’t be driving the franchise into the ground after he’s made the throw is the bottom line. Hopefully the refss get better and players will adjust. 

 
The General said:
The refs are gong to mess up when asking them to make this type of on field judgements live at full speed. 

The linemen shouldn’t be driving the franchise into the ground after he’s made the throw is the bottom line. Hopefully the refss get better and players will adjust. 
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Well said. 

 
The General said:
The refs are gong to mess up when asking them to make this type of on field judgements live at full speed. 

The linemen shouldn’t be driving the franchise into the ground after he’s made the throw is the bottom line. Hopefully the refss get better and players will adjust. 
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Thx for chiming in so it isn't one man vs the world

 
Then if we are basically expecting errors, these calls need to be challenge-able. This was a game altering call and in my opinion, that type call/play needs to be reviewed. After all, the NFL says they are just trying to get it right, then let’s get it right. 

Andy, you are a very good poster and have made your point thoroughly, I would give it a rest now. We all get it, you think it was a good call, but at this point, it’s turning into something that is borderline ridiculous. Just mho 

 
I must be the only one in the world that, after watching the replay from the umpires perspective, can clearly see Matthew's left arm hook under Cousin's right knee/thigh while they are falling away from the umpire giving the illusion of him lifting on the leg before Matthew's puts his hand down to break the fall. When viewed from the front side it was clear he did not lift him, but the umpire's view, in my eyes, definately gave the illusion of the QB's right leg being lifted.

 
If this leads to QBs taking dives to get calls during a ferocious pass rush on a well defended third and long, then I'm converting to watching corn hole

 
Andy Dufresne said:
(b) A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground 
or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial 
contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a 
defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw 
him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap 
up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight.

Matthews landed with his shoulder in Cousin's gut, laying on top of him. I'm not missing anything. Its not clear from the front view but pretty definitive from the rear, where the ref observed it. 

You can dislike speed limits all you want. But if you're caught speeding, you're probably getting a ticket. 
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The bolded describes Matthews' actions perfectly.

 
Hatch said:
I must be the only one in the world that, after watching the replay from the umpires perspective, can clearly see Matthew's left arm hook under Cousin's right knee/thigh while they are falling away from the umpire giving the illusion of him lifting on the leg before Matthew's puts his hand down to break the fall. When viewed from the front side it was clear he did not lift him, but the umpire's view, in my eyes, definately gave the illusion of the QB's right leg being lifted.
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It may give that illusion but what it actually is, is Cousins lifting his own leg on his follow through since the leg starts lifting in a continuous and uninterrupted movement before Matthews arm gets there.

These Refs may want to acquaint themselves with the laws of Newtonian Physics, particularly about objects in motion.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
It may give that illusion but what it actually is, is Cousins lifting his own leg on his follow through since the leg starts lifting in a continuous and uninterrupted movement before Matthews arm gets there.

These Refs may want to acquaint themselves with the laws of Newtonian Physics, particularly abut objects in motion.
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Exactly my point... and in a game that happens that fast... illusions are realities... My point is that the illusion the umpire saw is exactly what he described in why he called the penalty. Right or wrong previous posters said he must be blind and his reason for making the call made no sense.... I don't believe it should have been a penalty, but I can completely understand what the ref "saw" in real time without replay.

 
Hatch said:
Exactly my point... and in a game that happens that fast... illusions are realities... My point is that the illusion the umpire saw is exactly what he described in why he called the penalty. Right or wrong previous posters said he must be blind and his reason for making the call made no sense.... I don't believe it should have been a penalty, but I can completely understand what the ref "saw" in real time without replay.
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Gotcha.

 
Funny now Kirk Cousins saying it was a “generous call”, someone needs to tell him it was clearly illegal and he’s got no clue on being “piled on or driven to the ground or being lifted and slammed” by an NFL player. Unlike us experts on this board that “really” know about the NFL. 

 
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The Claymaker said:
Then if we are basically expecting errors, these calls need to be challenge-able. This was a game altering call and in my opinion, that type call/play needs to be reviewed. After all, the NFL says they are just trying to get it right, then let’s get it right. 

Andy, you are a very good poster and have made your point thoroughly, I would give it a rest now. We all get it, you think it was a good call, but at this point, it’s turning into something that is borderline ridiculous. Just mho 
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Gets pretty tricky to review judgement calls. Think you just have to live with calls that look bad. Players will adjust. 

The intent of the rule is correct. 

 
The General said:
Gets pretty tricky to review judgement calls. Think you just have to live with calls that look bad. Players will adjust. 

The intent of the rule is correct. 
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I agree 100% and not suggesting to be able to challenge or review every call. But what they do now is challenge judgment calls, I’m just saying to include plays that have game altering results. 

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Except it's not. Matthews doesn't put his hand out until Cousins is on the ground. 
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But he's bracing himself so all of his weight doesn't come down on Cousins.

 
The Claymaker said:
I agree 100% and not suggesting to be able to challenge or review every call. But what they do now is challenge judgment calls, I’m just saying to include plays that have game altering results. 
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Gotcha. Which judgement calls do they review now though, thought only things reviewable are the 100% right or wrong stuff. 

There’s prolly some way to do it for big calls but  not sure how. Big PI calls are blown all the time, holding all the time, etc. 

 
The General said:
Gotcha. Which judgement calls do they review now though, thought only things reviewable are the 100% right or wrong stuff. 

There’s prolly some way to do it for big calls but  not sure how. Big PI calls are blown all the time, holding all the time, etc. 
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Yeah they can't make this subject to review it's already a mess as is that would make it worse.  Guess we just got to live with these kind of plays but as long as refs are calling it like this we're going to be hearing about these all season.

I'm serious when I said put flags on them.  Behind the line of scrimmage pull a flag, no tackling.  That's essentially what the NFL wants.

 
The General said:
Gotcha. Which judgement calls do they review now though, thought only things reviewable are the 100% right or wrong stuff. 

There’s prolly some way to do it for big calls but  not sure how. Big PI calls are blown all the time, holding all the time, etc. 
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Review turn overs and scoring plays.

What game was I watching, the Broncos maybe, where they reviewed something to determine whether it was a catch or not, and maybe on a scoring play, I don't remember, and they determined it was not a catch but they could not review the blatant P.I that rendered it not a catch.  Seems wrong.  When reviewing a play they ought toe review all for the salient facts. 

 
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bryhamm said:
:shrug:

the nfl will be issuing an "apology" on the blown call this week.  99.9% sure.
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Andy Dufresne said:
More likely they'll use it as an example of a correct call. 
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NFL to use Clay Matthews’ penalty as a “teaching tool” for pass rushers

The NFL will use two roughing the passer penalties from the Packers-Vikings game as teaching tools this week.

The two roughing penalties in that game — one on Eric Kendricks and one on Clay Matthews — were correctly officiated, according to a league source. The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul.

NFL Senior Vice President of Officiating Al Riveron will share the two plays with teams this week to reiterate that the tactic is a foul.

Matthews and the Packers publicly have disagreed with referee Tony Corrente’s decision to penalize the Packers linebacker for his hit on Kirk Cousins.

Jaire Alexander intercepted Cousins’ pass with 1:45 remaining in the fourth quarter, which would have allowed Green Bay to escape with a 29-21 victory. Instead, the 15-yard penalty kept the drive alive, and the Vikings scored a touchdown and two-point conversion to send the game to overtime.

Kendricks’ penalty on Aaron Rodgers came late in the second quarter and helped Green Bay kick a field goal on the final play of the half.

 
The General said:
Gotcha. Which judgement calls do they review now though, thought only things reviewable are the 100% right or wrong stuff. 

There’s prolly some way to do it for big calls but  not sure how. Big PI calls are blown all the time, holding all the time, etc. 
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Isn’t every call a judgment call by an official? A challenge happens when an official makes a call, (judgement call to be exact) a coach challenges that call and it gets reviewed by someone else who can take a moment and look at different views and then agree or disagree with said officials judgment. I dont mean that sarcastically, just saying coaches now are challenging judgment calls by officials. What’s one more judgment being challenged? Anyway, I doubt anything like that will happen, so who cares, but every call an official makes is his own judgment, right or wrong. 

This is a good discussion, I just wish our opinions mattered more, well my opinion anyway :)

 
Andy Dufresne said:
NFL to use Clay Matthews’ penalty as a “teaching tool” for pass rushers

The NFL will use two roughing the passer penalties from the Packers-Vikings game as teaching tools this week.

The two roughing penalties in that game — one on Eric Kendricks and one on Clay Matthews — were correctly officiated, according to a league source. The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul.

NFL Senior Vice President of Officiating Al Riveron will share the two plays with teams this week to reiterate that the tactic is a foul.

Matthews and the Packers publicly have disagreed with referee Tony Corrente’s decision to penalize the Packers linebacker for his hit on Kirk Cousins.

Jaire Alexander intercepted Cousins’ pass with 1:45 remaining in the fourth quarter, which would have allowed Green Bay to escape with a 29-21 victory. Instead, the 15-yard penalty kept the drive alive, and the Vikings scored a touchdown and two-point conversion to send the game to overtime.

Kendricks’ penalty on Aaron Rodgers came late in the second quarter and helped Green Bay kick a field goal on the final play of the half.
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With the NFL officials doubling down on this, it seems you've indeed been right all along.  They are actually going to maintain that the rule book makes this type of play illegal.

They should also use the footage of Mike Daniels from yesterday, demonstrating the proper technique a pass rusher should use when he believes the QB may have made a throw - https://gfycat.com/DeafeningSpitefulCrownofthornsstarfish

 
CletiusMaximus said:
With the NFL officials doubling down on this, it seems you've indeed been right all along.  They are actually going to maintain that the rule book makes this type of play illegal.

They should also use the footage of Mike Daniels from yesterday, demonstrating the proper technique a pass rusher should use when he believes the QB may have made a throw - https://gfycat.com/DeafeningSpitefulCrownofthornsstarfish
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Didn't see that. Pretty tough spot for Daniels. 

I guess the defender is expected to pull the QB down without landing on him.

But that's an obvious case to demonstrate the downside of the rule.

 
How far we've come from this, eh?

And this.

Not a bad thing per se, but we're at a point where players, taught fundamentals from Day 1 in Pee Wee, are having those fundamentals completely subverted at the highest levels of the game. So I get why Clay Matthews is agog.

It's super interesting to see how this particular call is going to pan out over time.

 
I said a year ago when Barr took out Rodgers, I don't care what the rule says, that is just flat out wrong.  Same thing applies here.  They had the rule wrong a year ago, and they've gone way too far in the other direction this year. 

If they truly are planning to use this as an example throughout the league on how NOT to hit a QB, I sincerely hope every coach says what the flock are you talking about.  The NFL needs to go back to the drawing board and rewrite this rule asap.

 
Grahamburn said:
Ehhh.  Those were clearly late and also in the head area.
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The NFL reversed one of the two last week. It was a bad call but my point is even the ref didn't know it was a bad call or why most likely.

 
Andy Dufresne said:
NFL to use Clay Matthews’ penalty as a “teaching tool” for pass rushers

The NFL will use two roughing the passer penalties from the Packers-Vikings game as teaching tools this week.

The two roughing penalties in that game — one on Eric Kendricks and one on Clay Matthews — were correctly officiated, according to a league source. The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul.

NFL Senior Vice President of Officiating Al Riveron will share the two plays with teams this week to reiterate that the tactic is a foul.

Matthews and the Packers publicly have disagreed with referee Tony Corrente’s decision to penalize the Packers linebacker for his hit on Kirk Cousins.

Jaire Alexander intercepted Cousins’ pass with 1:45 remaining in the fourth quarter, which would have allowed Green Bay to escape with a 29-21 victory. Instead, the 15-yard penalty kept the drive alive, and the Vikings scored a touchdown and two-point conversion to send the game to overtime.

Kendricks’ penalty on Aaron Rodgers came late in the second quarter and helped Green Bay kick a field goal on the final play of the half.
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https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/09/17/mike-pereira-dean-blandino-disagree-with-nfl-on-what-roughing-is/

 
I wonder how the owners decide to make even more ambiguous rules that put the guys in stripes front and center next off-season.

The league is really trying to make stars out of the officials. 

 
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Andy Dufresne said:
Actually, that Deadspin video shows it really well.

Matthews hits Cousins as he's throwing (or close enough for arguments sake) but then drives him diagonally with his next step - resulting in his ending up on top of Cousins. I'll agree he couldn't avoid the contact but maintain that he didn't need to end up on top of him. The second part is what the NFL is trying to avoid - his the Barr/Rodgers situation.
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I think it was the leg drive on the way down that drew the flag, not lifting, not body weight.  My guess is it looked like he was driving the QB into the ground.  Just my $.02

 
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
How far we've come from this, eh?

And this.

Not a bad thing per se, but we're at a point where players, taught fundamentals from Day 1 in Pee Wee, are having those fundamentals completely subverted at the highest levels of the game. So I get why Clay Matthews is agog.

It's super interesting to see how this particular call is going to pan out over time.
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Those hits are secondary to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtcQqwpCFJ4
Bradshaw's lucky he's alive.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Zero wrong with this hit.

- Defensive players have a right to hit QBs in the act of throwing. It's not a pile drive, it's not low, it's not at the head. The league is just going to call this randomly throughout the season and it will affect games, like a bullet just falling from the sky. Oh well.
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As someone said up thread, it was textbook on how to sack a QB. Should be used by the NFL as a training video/

 
daveR said:
I think it was the leg drive on the way down that drew the flag, not lifting, not body weight.  My guess is it looked like he was driving the QB into the ground.  Just my $.02
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We all know that grabbing a leg and lifting it is pretty much the opposite of a fundamental tackle...  

The NFL is horrible at making rules. 

 
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