The FBG Top 300 Books of All Time (fiction edition) | #25 Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov | Running list in posts #3 and #4 (6 Viewers)

[Eephus]

Well, I was afraid I'd be writing up my #1 book, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami, sooner than I would have liked. I knew it was on OH's list, and I had some hope that maybe it would at least get a third vote, but here we are.

I struggled putting my list together, because I don't have a second- or third-favorite book. I have only a favorite book. After this one, the order doesn't matter.

@Long Ball Larry , as a Murakami-curious fellow, this is the one I recommend most strongly by far. I still think you might wish to dip your toe into the short stories, and the collection "The Elephant Vanishes" made my list at #36, but if you're feeling crazy, just jump right into this 600+-page masterpiece instead.

A description of the plot would read like one of the joke descriptions I posted when I talked about Murakami earlier. Meek man looks for his missing cat, and later his wife. Sometimes he sits in an abandoned well and thinks. He also talks with a teenager about death, and sometimes life.

Of course, there's a whole lot more to it than that, but I find that the plots of Murakami's books aren't important. The plots are there, sorta, but the work is meant to invoke deeper emotions, like you're on a journey where there might not be a particular destination but you're meant to enjoy the scenery along the way. It's best just to read his books and let them wash over you. As I mentioned before, they can conjure a dreamlike state not just in the characters, but in yourself. While there is something of a structure to the journey for the protagonist, the situations are often surreal. Both you and the protagonist will be questioning what is real. It could lead to confusion, but somehow I've always found that it made sense to me. As if you're in a dream and know you're in a dream because of certain aspects not being possible, but in another way it also seems fully realistic.

Why this one, then? It's as difficult to describe as it is to describe his writing itself, but this one conjured all of the usual Murakami-induced feelings - particularly alienation/solitude, grief, and the desperate search for meaning - more strongly than any of his other brilliant works. While it has plenty of his usual fantastical elements, it's also grounded enough that I could relate to it in the midst of the surrealism. The following passage, from a letter written by the teenager I mentioned, is one of my favorites and also happens to be an apt description of the Murakami writing style:

"Anyway, it seems to me that the way most people go on living… they think that the world or life (or whatever) is this place where everything is (or is supposed to be) basically logical or consistent… ‘A is like this, so that’s why B happened.’ I mean, that doesn’t explain anything. It’s like when you put instant rice pudding mix in the microwave and push the button, and you take the cover off when it rings, and there you’ve got rice pudding. I mean, what happens in between the time when you push the switch and the microwave rings? You can’t tell what’s going on under the cover. Maybe the instant rice pudding first turns into macaroni cheese in the darkness when nobody’s looking and only then turns back into rice pudding. We think it’s only natural to get rice pudding after we put rice pudding mix in the microwave and the bell rings, but to me, that is just a presumption. I would be kind of relieved if, every once in a while, after you put rice pudding mix in the microwave and it rang and you opened the top, you got macaroni gratin. I suppose I’d be shocked, of course, but I don’t know, I think I’d be kind of relieved too. Or at least I think I wouldn’t be so upset, because that would feel, in some ways, a whole lot more real."

I eagerly await OH's cooking tomorrow night so that he can talk about this more persuasively than I am.

mmm rice pudding

 

[kupcho1]

Well, I was afraid I'd be writing up my #1 book, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami, sooner than I would have liked. I knew it was on OH's list, and I had some hope that maybe it would at least get a third vote, but here we are.

I struggled putting my list together, because I don't have a second- or third-favorite book. I have only a favorite book. After this one, the order doesn't matter.

@Long Ball Larry , as a Murakami-curious fellow, this is the one I recommend most strongly by far. I still think you might wish to dip your toe into the short stories, and the collection "The Elephant Vanishes" made my list at #36, but if you're feeling crazy, just jump right into this 600+-page masterpiece instead.

A description of the plot would read like one of the joke descriptions I posted when I talked about Murakami earlier. Meek man looks for his missing cat, and later his wife. Sometimes he sits in an abandoned well and thinks. He also talks with a teenager about death, and sometimes life.

Of course, there's a whole lot more to it than that, but I find that the plots of Murakami's books aren't important. The plots are there, sorta, but the work is meant to invoke deeper emotions, like you're on a journey where there might not be a particular destination but you're meant to enjoy the scenery along the way. It's best just to read his books and let them wash over you. As I mentioned before, they can conjure a dreamlike state not just in the characters, but in yourself. While there is something of a structure to the journey for the protagonist, the situations are often surreal. Both you and the protagonist will be questioning what is real. It could lead to confusion, but somehow I've always found that it made sense to me. As if you're in a dream and know you're in a dream because of certain aspects not being possible, but in another way it also seems fully realistic.

Why this one, then? It's as difficult to describe as it is to describe his writing itself, but this one conjured all of the usual Murakami-induced feelings - particularly alienation/solitude, grief, and the desperate search for meaning - more strongly than any of his other brilliant works. While it has plenty of his usual fantastical elements, it's also grounded enough that I could relate to it in the midst of the surrealism. The following passage, from a letter written by the teenager I mentioned, is one of my favorites and also happens to be an apt description of the Murakami writing style:

"Anyway, it seems to me that the way most people go on living… they think that the world or life (or whatever) is this place where everything is (or is supposed to be) basically logical or consistent… ‘A is like this, so that’s why B happened.’ I mean, that doesn’t explain anything. It’s like when you put instant rice pudding mix in the microwave and push the button, and you take the cover off when it rings, and there you’ve got rice pudding. I mean, what happens in between the time when you push the switch and the microwave rings? You can’t tell what’s going on under the cover. Maybe the instant rice pudding first turns into macaroni cheese in the darkness when nobody’s looking and only then turns back into rice pudding. We think it’s only natural to get rice pudding after we put rice pudding mix in the microwave and the bell rings, but to me, that is just a presumption. I would be kind of relieved if, every once in a while, after you put rice pudding mix in the microwave and it rang and you opened the top, you got macaroni gratin. I suppose I’d be shocked, of course, but I don’t know, I think I’d be kind of relieved too. Or at least I think I wouldn’t be so upset, because that would feel, in some ways, a whole lot more real."

I eagerly await OH's cooking tomorrow night so that he can talk about this more persuasively than I am.

Well done. I don't think I could have captured the spirit of the book any better.
Thank you

 

[krista4]

I forgot to mention...Murakami works almost always have cats and The Beatles in them, too.

 

[Oliver Humanzee]

Well, I was afraid I'd be writing up my #1 book, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami, sooner than I would have liked. I knew it was on OH's list, and I had some hope that maybe it would at least get a third vote, but here we are.

I struggled putting my list together, because I don't have a second- or third-favorite book. I have only a favorite book. After this one, the order doesn't matter.

@Long Ball Larry , as a Murakami-curious fellow, this is the one I recommend most strongly by far. I still think you might wish to dip your toe into the short stories, and the collection "The Elephant Vanishes" made my list at #36, but if you're feeling crazy, just jump right into this 600+-page masterpiece instead.

A description of the plot would read like one of the joke descriptions I posted when I talked about Murakami earlier. Meek man looks for his missing cat, and later his wife. Sometimes he sits in an abandoned well and thinks. He also talks with a teenager about death, and sometimes life.

Of course, there's a whole lot more to it than that, but I find that the plots of Murakami's books aren't important. The plots are there, sorta, but the work is meant to invoke deeper emotions, like you're on a journey where there might not be a particular destination but you're meant to enjoy the scenery along the way. It's best just to read his books and let them wash over you. As I mentioned before, they can conjure a dreamlike state not just in the characters, but in yourself. While there is something of a structure to the journey for the protagonist, the situations are often surreal. Both you and the protagonist will be questioning what is real. It could lead to confusion, but somehow I've always found that it made sense to me. As if you're in a dream and know you're in a dream because of certain aspects not being possible, but in another way it also seems fully realistic.

Why this one, then? It's as difficult to describe as it is to describe his writing itself, but this one conjured all of the usual Murakami-induced feelings - particularly alienation/solitude, grief, and the desperate search for meaning - more strongly than any of his other brilliant works. While it has plenty of his usual fantastical elements, it's also grounded enough that I could relate to it in the midst of the surrealism. The following passage, from a letter written by the teenager I mentioned, is one of my favorites and also happens to be an apt description of the Murakami writing style:

"Anyway, it seems to me that the way most people go on living… they think that the world or life (or whatever) is this place where everything is (or is supposed to be) basically logical or consistent… ‘A is like this, so that’s why B happened.’ I mean, that doesn’t explain anything. It’s like when you put instant rice pudding mix in the microwave and push the button, and you take the cover off when it rings, and there you’ve got rice pudding. I mean, what happens in between the time when you push the switch and the microwave rings? You can’t tell what’s going on under the cover. Maybe the instant rice pudding first turns into macaroni cheese in the darkness when nobody’s looking and only then turns back into rice pudding. We think it’s only natural to get rice pudding after we put rice pudding mix in the microwave and the bell rings, but to me, that is just a presumption. I would be kind of relieved if, every once in a while, after you put rice pudding mix in the microwave and it rang and you opened the top, you got macaroni gratin. I suppose I’d be shocked, of course, but I don’t know, I think I’d be kind of relieved too. Or at least I think I wouldn’t be so upset, because that would feel, in some ways, a whole lot more real."

I eagerly await OH's cooking tomorrow night so that he can talk about this more persuasively than I am.

I dunno, K, you kinda nailed it.

 

[kupcho1]

Phase 4: Counting down from 100

Moving up to the 80s

90	Shōgun	James Clavell	kupcho1, timschochet
	And Then There Were None	Agatha Christie	kupcho1, scoobus, Psychopav
89	Midnight's Children	Salman Rushdie	kupcho1, Don Quixote, Oliver Humanzee
88	Gravity's Rainbow	Thomas Pynchon	kupcho1, Dr. Octopus, Oliver Humanzee
87	An American Tragedy	Theodore Dreiser	timschochet, Dr. Octopus, Oliver Humanzee

14 nominations but only 6 participants. This group's got some heavy lifting to do, including @timschochet with a #1 pick.

90. Shōgun by James Clavell
timschochet: #1
kupcho1: #45
Total points: 166
Average: 83.0

90. And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie
Psychopav: #7
scoobus: #23
kupcho1: #66
Total points: 166
Average: 55.3

89. Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie
kupcho1: #10
Don Quixote: #30
Oliver Humanzee: #38
Total points: 169
Average: 56.3

87. Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Dr. Octopus: #19
kupcho1: #20
Oliver Humanzee: #23
Total points: 170
Average: 56.7

87. An American Tragedy by Theodore Dreiser
Dr. Octopus: #3
Oliver Humanzee: #32
timschochet: #70
Total points: 170
Average: 56.7

Yikes, I've got some work to do today. As I'm sharing books with so many others, I'll hold off on opining on mine to give others a chance to do so first.

 

[guru_007]

I forgot to mention...Murakami works always have cats and The Beatles in them, too.

I was intending on reading at least everyone's #1 rated book upon completion of this thread.
was intending

I kid, as your description of Wind Up Bird Chronicles rocketed this book to the top of my to be read queue.

 

[Psychopav]

I'm guessing And Then There Were None doesn't really need a write-up. It's a classic tale of group of strangers are brought to a mysterious mansion on an island and stranded there by a mysterious host. They begin dying one by one. Hilarity ensues.

Only a classic trope because Christie did it first, and (I would argue) best. If you haven't read it and love mysteries, it's a must read. Especially if you don't know the story.

 

[Psychopav]

ps: I did the brain games on Lumosity for a while. One of them was a word creation game where you come up with as many words as you can given a set of letters in a specific timeframe. After the game ends they tell you which famous people you share vocabulary with. My highest and most consistent match was Agatha Christie. Probably because I read every book of hers I could back in middle and high school.

I grieve for my children, whose vocabularies have been shaped by texting, Insta, and TikTok.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

 

[krista4]

I'm guessing And Then There Were None doesn't really need a write-up. It's a classic tale of group of strangers are brought to a mysterious mansion on an island and stranded there by a mysterious host. They begin dying one by one. Hilarity ensues.

Only a classic trope because Christie did it first, and (I would argue) best. If you haven't read it and love mysteries, it's a must read. Especially if you don't know the story.

I seriously considered it for my list. Like you, I devoured Agatha Christie books in my childhood and teenage years, and I think this is the best of them.

This is the only book I've read on today's list, which is embarrassing. I put An American Tragedy on my list based on Dr. O's write-up, though!

 

[timschochet]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

 

[timschochet]

One of the more interesting aspects of An American Tragedy: after Roberta gets pregnant she and Clyde attempt to get an abortion- At the time the book was written this was illegal and especially in a small town very difficult to obtain. There is a very tense scene in which a doctor not only sternly refuses them but gives them a moral lecture: obviously if they could have gotten the abortion the whole premise of the story would have changed.

 

[timschochet]

And Then There Were None is an excellent entertaining read but like so many of her mysteries it’s a bit unfair to the problem solver. I won’t give it away but she uses a trick that is nearly impossible for the reader to discover until it is revealed at the end.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

Didn't know it was a movie - I will check it out.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I put An American Tragedy on my list based on Dr. O's write-up, though!

OH ranked it as well.

 

[krista4]

I put An American Tragedy on my list based on Dr. O's write-up, though!

OH ranked it as well.

Yes, I know. He's read tons and tons of classics that I haven't. And tons and tons of non-classics that I haven't. I just ticked off books on his list I haven't read, and there are 50.

 

[krista4]

Yes, I know. He's read tons and tons of classics that I haven't. And tons and tons of non-classics that I haven't. I just ticked off books on his list I haven't read, and there are 50.

Of the 20 he has on his list that I have read, 18 are also on my list. Hmmm, maybe I should read the rest on his list!

 

[timschochet]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

Didn't know it was a movie - I will check it out.

The scandal in Hollywood at the time was that Shelly Winters, who was a former model and pinup girl, was deliberately made to look drab and plain so that Liz Taylor could shine by contrast- Winters hated that.

 

[Ilov80s]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

Didn't know it was a movie - I will check it out.

The scandal in Hollywood at the time was that Shelly Winters, who was a former model and pinup girl, was deliberately made to look drab and plain so that Liz Taylor could shine by contrast- Winters hated that.

She was good looking but there was no competing with Liz Taylor in 1951. Shelly was already in her 30s at this point and was far past her pinup days which is something she fought hard for. She very specifically didn’t want to be just the beautiful blonde, she wanted to act. Supposedly she was the one who auditioned with no makeup on to prove she could handle the more homely part. She’s awesome in it and Clift is just always elite imo.

 

[timschochet]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

Didn't know it was a movie - I will check it out.

The scandal in Hollywood at the time was that Shelly Winters, who was a former model and pinup girl, was deliberately made to look drab and plain so that Liz Taylor could shine by contrast- Winters hated that.

She was good looking but there was no competing with Liz Taylor in 1951. Shelly was already in her 30s at this point and was far past her pinup days which is something she fought hard for. She very specifically didn’t want to be just the beautiful blonde, she wanted to act. Supposedly she was the one who auditioned with no makeup on to prove she could handle the more homely part. She’s awesome in it and Clift is just always elite imo.

This is more accurate than what I wrote. You’re right about Clift. He was so understated but expressed such great emotions. Everything I’ve ever seen him in was an outstanding performance.

 

[Eephus]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

Didn't know it was a movie - I will check it out.

The scandal in Hollywood at the time was that Shelly Winters, who was a former model and pinup girl, was deliberately made to look drab and plain so that Liz Taylor could shine by contrast- Winters hated that.

She was good looking but there was no competing with Liz Taylor in 1951. Shelly was already in her 30s at this point and was far past her pinup days which is something she fought hard for. She very specifically didn’t want to be just the beautiful blonde, she wanted to act. Supposedly she was the one who auditioned with no makeup on to prove she could handle the more homely part. She’s awesome in it and Clift is just always elite imo.

I've never read the book, only seen the movie. Is the famous "tell mama, tell mama all" line Dreiser's or a creation of the screenwriter?

 

[Ilov80s]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

Didn't know it was a movie - I will check it out.

The scandal in Hollywood at the time was that Shelly Winters, who was a former model and pinup girl, was deliberately made to look drab and plain so that Liz Taylor could shine by contrast- Winters hated that.

She was good looking but there was no competing with Liz Taylor in 1951. Shelly was already in her 30s at this point and was far past her pinup days which is something she fought hard for. She very specifically didn’t want to be just the beautiful blonde, she wanted to act. Supposedly she was the one who auditioned with no makeup on to prove she could handle the more homely part. She’s awesome in it and Clift is just always elite imo.

I've never read the book, only seen the movie. Is the famous "tell mama, tell mama all" line Dreiser's or a creation of the screenwriter?

That’s a Tim question. I’ve only seen the movie as well.

 

[timschochet]

An American Tragedy is a powerful and haunting novel about ambition, class, and moral downfall. Dreiser tells the story of Clyde Griffiths, a young man whose desire to rise in society leads him down a dark and tragic path. The writing is detailed and psychological, slowly unraveling Clyde’s inner turmoil as he makes increasingly desperate choices.

The novel critiques the American Dream, showing how its promises can be misleading or even dangerous. Though long and sometimes slow-paced, it’s a gripping and thought-provoking read that still feels relevant today.

I have read a lot of books twice - but this one I have read three times. I had it ranked #3 on my list.

Great great novel. The movie version was called “A Place In the Sun” amd stars Montgomery Clift, Shelly Winters, and Elizabeth Taylor. Also excellent.

Didn't know it was a movie - I will check it out.

The scandal in Hollywood at the time was that Shelly Winters, who was a former model and pinup girl, was deliberately made to look drab and plain so that Liz Taylor could shine by contrast- Winters hated that.

She was good looking but there was no competing with Liz Taylor in 1951. Shelly was already in her 30s at this point and was far past her pinup days which is something she fought hard for. She very specifically didn’t want to be just the beautiful blonde, she wanted to act. Supposedly she was the one who auditioned with no makeup on to prove she could handle the more homely part. She’s awesome in it and Clift is just always elite imo.

I've never read the book, only seen the movie. Is the famous "tell mama, tell mama all" line Dreiser's or a creation of the screenwriter?

I don’t think it’s in the book.

 

[shuke]

246 The Secret History / Donna Tartt / selected 3 times

Purchased this last night, it's next in my queue.

 

[kupcho1]

246 The Secret History / Donna Tartt / selected 3 times

Purchased this last night, it's next in my queue.

I'm not sure that'll be one of my picks in the 1 book per participant exercise, but I will eventually get around to reading it. I liked The Goldfinch.

 

[kupcho1]

Midnight's Children (1981) by Salman Rushdie was my #10. I ranked The Satanic Verses higher (#3) mainly because I'm concerned with the state of the world today. Issues such as immigration (the real focus of The Satanic Verses) and free speech (both in the U.S. as well as in Islamic countries where something like this'll get you fatwa issued). However, in simpler times, I think Midnight's Children would be my higher ranked book. Simple put: it's a masterpiece.
Rushdie's second book (his first was Grimus, a novel I've never read) won the Booker prize that year. The fact that it is postmodern and chock full of magical realism enables Rushdie to tell the story of India's partition in both an effective and entertaining manner. I don't want to spoil the book as I hope you'll read it, but here are a few points:

Midnight's Children is a loose allegory for events in 1947 British Raj India and after the partition of India. The protagonist and narrator of the story is Saleem Sinai, born at the exact moment when India became an independent country. He was born with telepathic powers, as well as an enormous and constantly dripping nose with an extremely sensitive sense of smell.

Saleem is born precisely at midnight, 15 August 1947, therefore, exactly as old as independent India. He later discovers that all children born in India between 12 a.m. and 1 a.m. on that date are imbued with special powers. Saleem, using his telepathic powers, assembles a Midnight Children's Conference, reflective of the issues India faced in its early statehood concerning the cultural, linguistic, religious, and political differences faced by a vastly diverse nation. Saleem acts as a telepathic conduit, bringing hundreds of geographically disparate children into contact while also attempting to discover the meaning of their gifts. In particular, those children born closest to the stroke of midnight wield more powerful gifts than the others. Shiva "of the Knees", Saleem's nemesis, and Parvati, called "Parvati-the-witch," are two of these children with notable gifts and roles in Saleem's story.

Hopefully you find the above intriguing enough to get the book.

RIYL: Gabriel García Márquez, Haruki Murakami, Jorge Luis Borges

 

[KarmaPolice]

I need to read a Rushdie novel. I think the fantasy/historical blend has kept me away from some so far.

 

[Dr_Zaius]

Sorry to butt in to the Top 100 with some unfinished business, but I think I still owe two books only I ranked:

Water For Elephants by Sara Gruen
I only read this at my wife’s urging, as the idea of a novel set amongst a circus had no real appeal to me. I’m glad I did as it’s a very enjoyable read and one of my favorite contemporary books. The story is told by protagonist Jacob Jankowski, a nursing home resident who is resentful of being in a nursing home because he doesn’t belong there. Well, he belongs there in that he needs the assistance of the staff, but his real life is in the past, and through the novel he tells the story of working as a veterinarian for a depression era circus. The novel opens with a shocking scene from the middle of the tale, and as the story unfolds we find out the scene is maybe not exactly how we were picturing it.

I think the portrayal of the protagonist is what makes this novel for me. It’s so rare to get a novel focused on the elderly, and it’s a full picture rather than a caricature. I also love the ending of this book.

They made the book into a movie, which was decent but as typical doesn’t really do the novel justice.

Salt to the Sea by Ruta Sepetys
I think this is generally considered a young adult novel, so it’s not necessarily a heavy read but very well done. Historical fiction set amongst young men and women fleeing East Prussia and the advancing Soviet Army during WWII. Eventually they converge on the Wilhelm Gustloff, an ultimately ill-fated evacuation ship pulled from the pages of history. The story is told by alternating points of view from the main characters, and we slowly learn their histories and what they are fleeing from and why. My wife and daughter liked this enough that we now have several other books by the author, but I think this her the best one.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Well, I was afraid I'd be writing up my #1 book, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami, sooner than I would have liked. I knew it was on OH's list, and I had some hope that maybe it would at least get a third vote, but here we are.

I struggled putting my list together, because I don't have a second- or third-favorite book. I have only a favorite book. After this one, the order doesn't matter.

@Long Ball Larry , as a Murakami-curious fellow, this is the one I recommend most strongly by far. I still think you might wish to dip your toe into the short stories, and the collection "The Elephant Vanishes" made my list at #36, but if you're feeling crazy, just jump right into this 600+-page masterpiece instead.

A description of the plot would read like one of the joke descriptions I posted when I talked about Murakami earlier. Meek man looks for his missing cat, and later his wife. Sometimes he sits in an abandoned well and thinks. He also talks with a teenager about death, and sometimes life.

Of course, there's a whole lot more to it than that, but I find that the plots of Murakami's books aren't important. The plots are there, sorta, but the work is meant to invoke deeper emotions, like you're on a journey where there might not be a particular destination but you're meant to enjoy the scenery along the way. It's best just to read his books and let them wash over you. As I mentioned before, they can conjure a dreamlike state not just in the characters, but in yourself. While there is something of a structure to the journey for the protagonist, the situations are often surreal. Both you and the protagonist will be questioning what is real. It could lead to confusion, but somehow I've always found that it made sense to me. As if you're in a dream and know you're in a dream because of certain aspects not being possible, but in another way it also seems fully realistic.

Why this one, then? It's as difficult to describe as it is to describe his writing itself, but this one conjured all of the usual Murakami-induced feelings - particularly alienation/solitude, grief, and the desperate search for meaning - more strongly than any of his other brilliant works. While it has plenty of his usual fantastical elements, it's also grounded enough that I could relate to it in the midst of the surrealism. The following passage, from a letter written by the teenager I mentioned, is one of my favorites and also happens to be an apt description of the Murakami writing style:

"Anyway, it seems to me that the way most people go on living… they think that the world or life (or whatever) is this place where everything is (or is supposed to be) basically logical or consistent… ‘A is like this, so that’s why B happened.’ I mean, that doesn’t explain anything. It’s like when you put instant rice pudding mix in the microwave and push the button, and you take the cover off when it rings, and there you’ve got rice pudding. I mean, what happens in between the time when you push the switch and the microwave rings? You can’t tell what’s going on under the cover. Maybe the instant rice pudding first turns into macaroni cheese in the darkness when nobody’s looking and only then turns back into rice pudding. We think it’s only natural to get rice pudding after we put rice pudding mix in the microwave and the bell rings, but to me, that is just a presumption. I would be kind of relieved if, every once in a while, after you put rice pudding mix in the microwave and it rang and you opened the top, you got macaroni gratin. I suppose I’d be shocked, of course, but I don’t know, I think I’d be kind of relieved too. Or at least I think I wouldn’t be so upset, because that would feel, in some ways, a whole lot more real."

I eagerly await OH's cooking tomorrow night so that he can talk about this more persuasively than I am.

Midnight's Children (1981) by Salman Rushdie was my #10. I ranked The Satanic Verses higher (#3) mainly because I'm concerned with the state of the world today. Issues such as immigration (the real focus of The Satanic Verses) and free speech (both in the U.S. as well as in Islamic countries where something like this'll get you fatwa issued). However, in simpler times, I think Midnight's Children would be my higher ranked book. Simple put: it's a masterpiece.
Rushdie's second book (his first was Grimus, a novel I've never read) won the Booker prize that year. The fact that it is postmodern and chock full of magical realism enables Rushdie to tell the story of India's partition in both an effective and entertaining manner. I don't want to spoil the book as I hope you'll read it, but here are a few points:

Midnight's Children is a loose allegory for events in 1947 British Raj India and after the partition of India. The protagonist and narrator of the story is Saleem Sinai, born at the exact moment when India became an independent country. He was born with telepathic powers, as well as an enormous and constantly dripping nose with an extremely sensitive sense of smell.

Saleem is born precisely at midnight, 15 August 1947, therefore, exactly as old as independent India. He later discovers that all children born in India between 12 a.m. and 1 a.m. on that date are imbued with special powers. Saleem, using his telepathic powers, assembles a Midnight Children's Conference, reflective of the issues India faced in its early statehood concerning the cultural, linguistic, religious, and political differences faced by a vastly diverse nation. Saleem acts as a telepathic conduit, bringing hundreds of geographically disparate children into contact while also attempting to discover the meaning of their gifts. In particular, those children born closest to the stroke of midnight wield more powerful gifts than the others. Shiva "of the Knees", Saleem's nemesis, and Parvati, called "Parvati-the-witch," are two of these children with notable gifts and roles in Saleem's story.

Hopefully you find the above intriguing enough to get the book.

RIYL: Gabriel García Márquez, Haruki Murakami, Jorge Luis Borges

I liked the idea of what somebody posted today of reading all the participant's #1 book. I had something similar in mind, which is why I was picking a few short books to read while the countdown goes on - I was going to try to read 1 top 5 book from each participant. I am not a heavy reader and I know my limits, so I thought that would give me more control. Anyway, Wind-Up Bird Chronicle will be Krista's book. I am looking at the book on my shelf as I type, and I have been wanting to get back to it for years. Satanic Verses is Kupcho's front-runner. I've been wanting to read both for the longest time, but as I said the mix of fantasy/history has been making me drag my feet. I am very interested in both regions - I lived in Japan as a kid and visited India for school in my 20s. BUT, I know very little about either region's history and have been hesitant to read either thinking I might be more lost than usual if there is a mix of the fantastical mixed with a history I don't understand. Am I overthinking this too much? Did either of you have similar reactions, or did the books instantly connect with you?

 

[Chaos34]

I liked the idea of what somebody posted today of reading all the participant's #1 book

Well you can try mine but Shakespeare as he originally wrote is almost a foreign language. Everyone should read a few Shakespeare's; a couple histories, a couple tragedies and a couple comedies would entertain anyone. No need to fight through the original language though. The conspiracy that someone else (Bacon) wrote them is based on his supposed lack of education, being a mere commoner from Stratford, and the genius throughout his works. I'd happily recommend a few if anyone is interested.

But, my #2 selection is the must read, imo, if you haven't.

 

[krista4]

OH makes this corn and leek dish with heavy cream, garlic of course, I don't know what else. It's amazing. Always a big hit if he includes it in a meal for a holiday or some such. I see ears of corn and leeks and heavy cream out right now. Mouth actually watering just from seeing the ingredients. I know the corn is Mexican hothouse at this time of year, but that's OK.


An American Tragedy by Theodore Dreiser

"I love Dreiser and also considered The Financier and Sister Carrie. He was – with Upton Sinclair – one of the best of the muckraker, quasi-journalist, class-conscious socialists of the era, a terrible realist, and a progenitor of the hard-boiled journalistic style of writing that I associate with Chicago, though I think he’s from Ohio or Indiana or something. An American Tragedy is a tragedy in the Greek sense, where it’s not necessarily sad, but tragic in the ironic sense that the means by which the protagonist is trying to get what he wants are the means that bring his downfall. It's a very early American example of an anti-hero, as the protagonist is unlikable and a true chore to spend any time with, but Dreiser writes him with a great deal of empathy so that you begin to root for him anyway."

 

[kupcho1]

BUT, I know very little about either region's history and have been hesitant to read either thinking I might be more lost than usual if there is a mix of the fantastical mixed with a history I don't understand. Am I overthinking this too much? Did either of you have similar reactions, or did the books instantly connect with you?

I love postmodernism, historical fiction and magical realism. Fantastical elements are all over my top 70 (Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell as one example that already showed up).

Both of the books you referenced were insta-connects with me. I found Rushdie as more accessible as he writes in English, whereas Murakami's are translations. Good translations (I assume, as i think Jay Rubin does most if not all of them), but translations nonetheless.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I liked the idea of what somebody posted today of reading all the participant's #1 book

Well you can try mine but Shakespeare as he originally wrote is almost a foreign language. Everyone should read a few Shakespeare's; a couple histories, a couple tragedies and a couple comedies would entertain anyone. No need to fight through the original language though. The conspiracy that someone else (Bacon) wrote them is based on his supposed lack of education, being a mere commoner from Stratford, and the genius throughout his works. I'd happily recommend a few if anyone is interested.

But, my #2 selection is the must read, imo, if you haven't.

Must have missed yours. Ive read some Shakespeare and like it. I do struggle with it, but around our house is an outdoor theatre and we have gone to a handful of Shakespeare plays.

 

[Eephus]

I liked the idea of what somebody posted today of reading all the participant's #1 book

Well you can try mine but Shakespeare as he originally wrote is almost a foreign language. Everyone should read a few Shakespeare's; a couple histories, a couple tragedies and a couple comedies would entertain anyone. No need to fight through the original language though. The conspiracy that someone else (Bacon) wrote them is based on his supposed lack of education, being a mere commoner from Stratford, and the genius throughout his works. I'd happily recommend a few if anyone is interested.

But, my #2 selection is the must read, imo, if you haven't.

Must have missed yours. Ive read some Shakespeare and like it. I do struggle with it, but around our house is an outdoor theatre and we have gone to a handful of Shakespeare plays.

Is the theater company in Spring Green still a thing?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It's a very early American example of an anti-hero, as the protagonist is unlikable and a true chore to spend any time with, but Dreiser writes him with a great deal of empathy so that you begin to root for him anyway

It’s funny because as I said I love this book and realize now the book I’m re-reading now that was on my list (but isn’t making the countdown) has a character that I could describe in the same way.

Maybe I have a type.

ETA: and the Sopranos was no. 1 on my TV rankings.

 

[shuke]

According to my personal tracking, 18 of my top 30 books have yet to appear but will, based on Kupcho's posting of everyone's highest ranked that didn't make the list.

There is one that I can't believe will be in the top 90, and I'm almost embarrassed that it's going to be ranked ahead of some of the literary big hitters that have already been posted.

 

[krista4]

BUT, I know very little about either region's history and have been hesitant to read either thinking I might be more lost than usual if there is a mix of the fantastical mixed with a history I don't understand. Am I overthinking this too much? Did either of you have similar reactions, or did the books instantly connect with you?

I love postmodernism, historical fiction and magical realism. Fantastical elements are all over my top 70 (Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell as one example that already showed up).

Both of the books you referenced were insta-connects with me. I found Rushdie as more accessible as he writes in English, whereas Murakami's are translations. Good translations (I assume, as i think Jay Rubin does most if not all of them), but translations nonetheless.

I have for years considered taking Japanese just so I can read Murakami in the original and watch Kurosawa without subtitles. Maybe if I retire one day. Anyway, Murakami has had two primary translators, with Jay Rubin being the better of the two IMO.

 

[kupcho1]

There is one that I can't believe will be in the top 90, and I'm almost embarrassed that it's going to be ranked ahead of some of the literary big hitters that have already been posted.

I'm pretty sure I know which one you're referring to and all I have to say is ...

 

[krista4]

Sorry, I started feeling really sick and didn't finish book-cook chat. Not much to these this time anyway.

Midnight’s Children by Salman Rushdie

“I think even Salman Rushdie called this his best book. It’s pretty haunting. A lovely, very sad novel about borders - both psychological and corporeal - alienation, and what it means to be of a culture. Rushdie, a Muslim semi-Pakistani (from Kashmiri family) in India, receiving his education at Cambridge. Vast upheaval of his life and homeland encountering another upheaval at school. It was the first time it occurred to me what traveling/migrancy must mean, what it must do to one’s head to be “of no place.” Muslim but atheist, in a country that hates Muslims. Receiving education in a place that wished both Muslims and Hindi didn’t exist. It’s very moving. And what beautiful prose, holy ****. His autobiography is very worthwhile as well, especially if you enjoy “inside baseball” and gossip about writers. His best friend was Harold Pinter, but they were constantly fighting, getting into screaming matches in restaurants. And of course, he also gets to talk about his ex-wife, Padma Lakshmi. Frequently name dropping minor characters like, you know, Bono.”


Gravity’s Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

“I can’t even think about this. Someone else can talk about this one. It’s so monstrous. Truly hilarious. So big in scope, so funny, so absurd and tragic and…I feel like it seems less satirical and absurd every day. Somebody got on TV and actually called Greenland “Red-White-and-Blue Land.” It’s like sub-moronic-Pynchon-esque hilarity. I got nothing; my brain is broke.”

 

[kupcho1]

Gravity’s Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

“I can’t even think about this. Someone else can talk about this one.

□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□
A screaming comes across the sky.

OK, I'll give it a shot. Gravity’s Rainbow was the 1974 Pultizer prize winner. Until it wasn't. I've talked about that over here.

W/r/t the book, it's historical fiction (WWII) with elements of science fiction thrown in. It's a little like Neal Stephenson (if you're familiar with his work), but whereas Stephenson grounds his work (almost entirely) in real science and jargon, Pynchon utilizes jokes and puns. These are often not obvious, and the walk to arrive at them, can be a long and winding road.

An example: Pynchon includes an entire digressive narrative on illicit trading in furs, henchmen, rowboats with a character named De Mille to set up
For De Mille, young fur-henchmen can't be rowing.

In doing a little research to discuss Gravity’s Rainbow, I came across a term I'd never before encountered: Menippean satire (which is, apparently, a real thing and not something the author (linked above in the pdf) did as an homage to Pynchon).

In Menippean satire, characters come to stand for ideas in play in the text.

One character, Roger Mexico, may stand for spontaneity and love, whereas his colleague Ned Pointsman represents determinism, conditioning and control. These two then get into situations that can only be described as implausible. This is done so that these two can discuss ideas in "real life" that otherwise could only be argued in an academic setting. These interactions do not advance the plot or develop either character. I think is one of the reasons people find Pynchon almost impenetrable.

Jokes and puns aside, there's a deeper level if you care to dig deeper. Another digression is when Tyrone Slothrop is offered candies by his latest conquest's landlady. These candies are horrific, turning out to be "luscious pepsin-flavored nougat, chock-full of tangy candied cubeb berries, and a chewy camphor-gum center."

But what's the point?

Two of the candies are named Lafitte Rothschild and Benrkastler Doktor. Rothschild is a famous European Jewish family; Bernkastler Doktor is a German wine. Pynchon could have used any winemakers, but he used Bernkastler Doktor do suggest Nazi doctors and Lafitte Rotschild to stand in for holocaust victims (a Rothschild was killed at Auschwitz).

I could take this discussion in a number of different directions, but I'll stop here. If you do read this book, you can always check out the Gravity's Rainbow reading guide for clarity. Or the Pynchon wiki if you want to read the book in an annotated fashion.

□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□

 

[kupcho1]

Phase 4: Counting down from 100

Five more including a #1 ranked book as well as a repeat performace by Collected Fictions aka Ficciones.

85	My Antonia	Willa Cather	Oliver Humanzee, Mrs.Marco
	Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone	J.K. Rowling	scoobus, Mrs.Marco, Psychopav
83	Crime and Punishment	Fyodor Dostoevsky	Oliver Humanzee, Psychopav, Long Ball Larry
	The Unbearable Lightness of Being	Milan Kundera	ilov80s, Eephus, krista4
82	Collected Fictions	Jorge Luis Borges	Oliver Humanzee, Long Ball Larry

85. My Antonia by Willa Cather
Oliver Humanzee: #3
Mrs.Marco: #28
Total points: 173
Average: 86.5

85. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone by J.K. Rowling

Psychopav: #11
scoobus: #16
Mrs.Marco: #58
Total points: 173
Average: 57.7

83. Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky

Long Ball Larry: #13
Oliver Humanzee: #19
Psychopav: #40
Total points: 174
Average: 58.0

83. The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera

ilov80s: #7
Eephus: #27
krista4: #51
Total points: 174
Average: 58.0

82. Collected Fictions by Jorge Luis Borges
Long Ball Larry: #70
Oliver Humanzee: #34
Total points: 177
Average: 88.5

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Phase 4: Counting down from 100

Five more including a #1 ranked book as well as a repeat performace by Collected Fictions aka Ficciones.

85	My Antonia	Willa Cather	Oliver Humanzee, Mrs.Marco
	Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone	J.K. Rowling	scoobus, Mrs.Marco, Psychopav
83	Crime and Punishment	Fyodor Dostoevsky	Oliver Humanzee, Psychopav, Long Ball Larry
	The Unbearable Lightness of Being	Milan Kundera	ilov80s, Eephus, krista4
82	Collected Fictions	Jorge Luis Borges	Oliver Humanzee, Long Ball Larry

85. My Antonia by Willa Cather
Oliver Humanzee: #3
Mrs.Marco: #28
Total points: 173
Average: 86.5

85. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone by J.K. Rowling

Psychopav: #11
scoobus: #16
Mrs.Marco: #58
Total points: 173
Average: 57.7

83. Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky

Long Ball Larry: #13
Oliver Humanzee: #19
Psychopav: #40
Total points: 174
Average: 58.0

83. The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera

ilov80s: #7
Eephus: #27
krista4: #51
Total points: 174
Average: 58.0

82. Collected Fictions by Jorge Luis Borges
Long Ball Larry: #70
Oliver Humanzee: #34
Total points: 177
Average: 88.5

 

[KarmaPolice]

I liked the idea of what somebody posted today of reading all the participant's #1 book

Well you can try mine but Shakespeare as he originally wrote is almost a foreign language. Everyone should read a few Shakespeare's; a couple histories, a couple tragedies and a couple comedies would entertain anyone. No need to fight through the original language though. The conspiracy that someone else (Bacon) wrote them is based on his supposed lack of education, being a mere commoner from Stratford, and the genius throughout his works. I'd happily recommend a few if anyone is interested.

But, my #2 selection is the must read, imo, if you haven't.

@Chaos34 what are one of your (or Miss Thorlaksson's ) favorite plays of the bunch. I was thinking more and there are a couple of the big ones that I haven't gotten to. I will keep my eye out for your #2 as you mentioned, but thought I would also write this down.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I liked the idea of what somebody posted today of reading all the participant's #1 book

Well you can try mine but Shakespeare as he originally wrote is almost a foreign language. Everyone should read a few Shakespeare's; a couple histories, a couple tragedies and a couple comedies would entertain anyone. No need to fight through the original language though. The conspiracy that someone else (Bacon) wrote them is based on his supposed lack of education, being a mere commoner from Stratford, and the genius throughout his works. I'd happily recommend a few if anyone is interested.

But, my #2 selection is the must read, imo, if you haven't.

Must have missed yours. Ive read some Shakespeare and like it. I do struggle with it, but around our house is an outdoor theatre and we have gone to a handful of Shakespeare plays.

Is the theater company in Spring Green still a thing?

Of course - the exact place I was talking about! Yes, American Player's Theater is still alive and well. It looks like the 2025 season is featuring A Midsummer Night's Dreams and The Winter's Tale.

 

[Chaos34]

A Midsummer Night's Dreams and The Winter's Tale.

She was a believer in reading before watching so these two would be my first recommendations if you plan to see them. Doing so mutes the payoff a little, especially with The Winter's Tale. It's a tragicomedy told in two parts set some 15 years apart. First part tragic, second part comic. I thought about that too long but decided it would be brilliant to read the first half before seeing the play and be Shakespeared by the actors for the 2nd half.

My standard recs for someone wanting to dig in are two each - comedies, tragedies and histories. In that order: A Midsummer Night's Dream, Twelfth Night, Richard III, Henry IV (pt 1), Hamlet, King Lear. These recs are character driven. Puck in Midsummer, Falstaff in Henry IV, Malvolio 12th Night, King Lear (Anthony Hopkins ftw), Hamlet and Richard (Olivier's masterpiece).

Something I'd enjoy a report back on is anyone's opinion of No Fear Shakespeares. These put the Elizabethan alongside modern language for the comprehension aid. Never tried that. What little I've looked at seemed to ruin the brilliant prose, but I could see it being very helpful. Read one that way and one from Folger and see what works better. Folgers are also very helpful with notes and translations.

 

[timschochet]

@kupcho1 : a personal request: can you use a different color for your posts? It’s probably my color blindness but I have a lot of trouble reading them. Tia

 

[shuke]

@kupcho1 : a personal request: can you use a different color for your posts? It’s probably my color blindness but I have a lot of trouble reading them. Tia

You new here?

 

[Don Quixote]

@kupcho1 : a personal request: can you use a different color for your posts? It’s probably my color blindness but I have a lot of trouble reading them. Tia

You new here?

I even did a step by step (er, one step) with picture on how to change font color to default color.

 

[Ilov80s]

The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera

The plot is pretty simple but the ideas are quite large. Prague in the late 60s/early 70s and all the baggage that comes with a culturally rich city that found itself in a century of constant change from the capital of a new county to being crushed under NAZI rule to being liberated and then crushed again under the foot of Communism and the failed Prague Spring attempt at liberation. This was a truly defeated city. Here we find 2 men, 2 women and a dog all connected through love and intimacy.

It’s really about lightness vs heaviness. Is life light and meaningless and fleeting? Or is it heavy, permanent and a place of eternal return? Do events have meaning or are those meanings simply our refusal to believe the insignificance of it all?

And what can life be worth if the first rehearsal for life is life itself?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

@kupcho1 : a personal request: can you use a different color for your posts? It’s probably my color blindness but I have a lot of trouble reading them. Tia

did you read any of this thread?