The Johan Santana rumor mill (2 Viewers)

[shadyridr]

The Mets prospects are really no more than that. They are a bunch of guys requiring a lot of wishful thinking. I can't see the Twins taking that package, as they would almost be giving Santana away at that point.

Everybody keeps trashing the Mets propsects. Here is a different take on the situation . . .At his blog, AaronGleeman.com, well-respected writer and Twins fan Aaron Gleeman has the following to say about potentially trading Johan Santana…

“Monday in this space I discussed the strength of a Phil Hughes-led offer from the Yankees, but a Mets package that includes Martinez, Guerra, Gomez, and Mulvey would blow that out of the water.”

http://www.aarongleeman.com/2008_01_06_bas...382219820895173

What dont you understand? Those guys are all years away except for MAYBE Gomez. The Twins have been saying all along they want major league ready prospects back. None of those are major league ready. BUT if the Twins changed their philosophy now and decided they want the best prospects available in return, even if they are years away, then yes I agree that that is a great package by the Mets and I would have no disagreement saying that trumps the Yankees offer.

 

[RBM]

From the Twin's Star Tribune beat writer:

According to people with knowledge of the discussions, the Mets have offered top pitching prospect Deolis Guerra, along with center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.

The Twins like those players. They've told the Mets they'd have a done deal if New York would add prized outfield prospect Fernando Martinez.

If this were true, I gotta believe this deal would be done already. A pitching staff with Santana, Pedro, Maine and Perez at 1-4 is going to win a ton 'o games.

Put it this way, its not the Mets holding that deal up. Calling Gomez ML is pushing it too. He has more upside than Melky, but he's a horrible hitter right now.

I wouldn't call Gomez a horrible hitter by any stretch. He is only major league ready on a team building for the future though - he is not someoen to plug in and expect to be part of a championship (or playoff) run. I heard the debate on radio this morning about not wanting to lose Martinez because apparantly he has tremendous skills.

STOP F'N AROUND AND GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT ALREADY, if that doesnt mean Reyes. Even if it DOES mean Reyes the mets are likely better off with Santana, but that is a dead issue.

Give em whatever the hell they want

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Even if it DOES mean Reyes the mets are likely better off with Santana, but that is a dead issue.

You're crazy. I want them to trade for the guy too but I don't think he'll last more than 3-4 years before he blows his arm out. Not worth Reyes to me.Call it a hunch.

 

[the moops]

Even if it DOES mean Reyes the mets are likely better off with Santana, but that is a dead issue.

You're crazy. I want them to trade for the guy too but I don't think he'll last more than 3-4 years before he blows his arm out. Not worth Reyes to me.Call it a hunch.

Any other hunches you would like to share? I need to know what ace pitchers to steer away from.

 

[dparker713]

Even if it DOES mean Reyes the mets are likely better off with Santana, but that is a dead issue.

You're crazy. I want them to trade for the guy too but I don't think he'll last more than 3-4 years before he blows his arm out. Not worth Reyes to me.Call it a hunch.

Any other hunches you would like to share? I need to know what ace pitchers to steer away from.

Positional players in general have longer dominant stretches than pitchers. Not really going out on a limb to say that Reyes at what, 24, is a better long term investment than Santana at 29. That before you even factor in any economics.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Even if it DOES mean Reyes the mets are likely better off with Santana, but that is a dead issue.

You're crazy. I want them to trade for the guy too but I don't think he'll last more than 3-4 years before he blows his arm out. Not worth Reyes to me.Call it a hunch.

Any other hunches you would like to share? I need to know what ace pitchers to steer away from.

Pretty much all of them.

 

[Wrigley]

Even if it DOES mean Reyes the mets are likely better off with Santana, but that is a dead issue.

You're crazy. I want them to trade for the guy too but I don't think he'll last more than 3-4 years before he blows his arm out. Not worth Reyes to me.Call it a hunch.

Any other hunches you would like to share? I need to know what ace pitchers to steer away from.

Positional players in general have longer dominant stretches than pitchers. Not really going out on a limb to say that Reyes at what, 24, is a better long term investment than Santana at 29. That before you even factor in any economics.

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

 

[Alias]

Peter Greenberg, Santana’s agent, said he had told the Twins that Santana would like to have his situation settled before spring training....The Mets have been lurking in the background, waiting for such a circumstance to develop, but they don’t seem to be in any better position than the Yankees or the Red Sox, despite a report Thursday in the Minneapolis newspaper The Star Tribune....People with the Mets and the Yankees suspect that the report, which said the Mets “might be the best fit,” was an idea generated by the Twins in an effort to induce the Yankees to move....A member of the Twins organization said that a month ago the Mets were barely mentioned in internal discussions about Santana, because they didn’t seem to have enough talent to trade. That assessment lends credence to the idea that a game within the game may be afoot....The Star Tribune report said the Mets had offered pitchers Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra, as well as outfielder Carlos Gómez. But a Mets official said they had made no offer, only discussed players in the context of what kinds of players the Twins were seeking — major league-ready players or minor league prospects....The newspaper report suggested that the deal would be done if the Mets put a fifth player, Fernando Martínez, an outfield prospect, in the package. But the Mets won’t give the Twins five players any more than they would give them José Reyes, whom the Twins wanted. A deal would already have been made had the Mets been willing to trade Reyes....Santana, who has a no-trade clause in his contract, has indicated he would accept a trade to any of the three teams.He has said privately that he was intrigued by the idea of playing in the National League and possibly winning a couple of Cy Young awards in the N.L. to go with his two in the American League.On the other hand, the Red Sox hold spring training in Fort Myers, where Santana is building a home.

 

[Alias]

The door is open wide for the MetsNew York Mets to land Johan Santana, but the Twins' asking price is still too high, industry sources told the Post yesterday.The superstar left-hander could be a perfect fit for the Mets and could land at Shea Stadium, but not for the reported five top prospects, including pitcher Deolis Guerra and outfielders Carlos GomezCarlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez.The two teams continue to talk and word out of Minnesota yesterday was that, yes, the Mets could snare Cy Young Santana for the right price, but as far as the Mets are concerned, that five-for-one deal is not the right price.

 

[RBM]

The door is open wide for the MetsNew York Mets to land Johan Santana, but the Twins' asking price is still too high, industry sources told the Post yesterday.The superstar left-hander could be a perfect fit for the Mets and could land at Shea Stadium, but not for the reported five top prospects, including pitcher Deolis Guerra and outfielders Carlos GomezCarlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez.The two teams continue to talk and word out of Minnesota yesterday was that, yes, the Mets could snare Cy Young Santana for the right price, but as far as the Mets are concerned, that five-for-one deal is not the right price.

Just make the damn deal Omar. 3 of the 5 guys you send them will probably suck anyway

 

[guru_007]

The Mets prospects are really no more than that. They are a bunch of guys requiring a lot of wishful thinking. I can't see the Twins taking that package, as they would almost be giving Santana away at that point.

Everybody keeps trashing the Mets propsects. Here is a different take on the situation . . .At his blog, AaronGleeman.com, well-respected writer and Twins fan Aaron Gleeman has the following to say about potentially trading Johan Santana…

“Monday in this space I discussed the strength of a Phil Hughes-led offer from the Yankees, but a Mets package that includes Martinez, Guerra, Gomez, and Mulvey would blow that out of the water.”

http://www.aarongleeman.com/2008_01_06_bas...382219820895173

What dont you understand? Those guys are all years away except for MAYBE Gomez. The Twins have been saying all along they want major league ready prospects back. None of those are major league ready. BUT if the Twins changed their philosophy now and decided they want the best prospects available in return, even if they are years away, then yes I agree that that is a great package by the Mets and I would have no disagreement saying that trumps the Yankees offer.

maybe Gomez? The fact he played in the majors LAST year doesn't equate into major league ready?

 

[ooofffaaa]

A big part of this will be Santana himself.

I'm hoping he pushes the Twins into trading him to the Mets and the price comes down.

Santana in the NL and a pitchers park would be $$$

 

[Knightro]

A big part of this will be Santana himself.I'm hoping he pushes the Twins into trading him to the Mets and the price comes down.Santana in the NL and a pitchers park would be $$

Santana in the NL and a pitchers park? Where do I plop down my $40?

 

[INRIhab]

The Mets prospects are really no more than that. They are a bunch of guys requiring a lot of wishful thinking. I can't see the Twins taking that package, as they would almost be giving Santana away at that point.

Everybody keeps trashing the Mets propsects. Here is a different take on the situation . . .At his blog, AaronGleeman.com, well-respected writer and Twins fan Aaron Gleeman has the following to say about potentially trading Johan Santana…

“Monday in this space I discussed the strength of a Phil Hughes-led offer from the Yankees, but a Mets package that includes Martinez, Guerra, Gomez, and Mulvey would blow that out of the water.”

http://www.aarongleeman.com/2008_01_06_bas...382219820895173

What dont you understand? Those guys are all years away except for MAYBE Gomez. The Twins have been saying all along they want major league ready prospects back. None of those are major league ready. BUT if the Twins changed their philosophy now and decided they want the best prospects available in return, even if they are years away, then yes I agree that that is a great package by the Mets and I would have no disagreement saying that trumps the Yankees offer.

maybe Gomez? The fact he played in the majors LAST year doesn't equate into major league ready?

Alou played less than 90 games. Chavez injured himself in early June and Gomez helped filled the role (until he later broke his leg). Green was also injured in late May I think.If you watched him play last year then you could easily argue why he should've stayed in the minors. He had a .288 OBP in 58 games, and 27 Ks compared to 29 hits. His speed was what allowed him to get on base a lot of the time. That being said, he was 22 years old and the Mets had outfield injuries, leading to him getting playing time.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

Crazy talk. Reyes is locked up cheap for several more years. And you never trade positional players with Reyes' ability for pitchers. Never ever.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

And Gomez is nowhere near ready for the big leagues offensively. Not even close.

 

[Dreamer]

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

Crazy talk. Reyes is locked up cheap for several more years. And you never trade positional players with Reyes' ability for pitchers. Never ever.

 

[Wrigley]

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

Crazy talk. Reyes is locked up cheap for several more years. And you never trade positional players with Reyes' ability for pitchers. Never ever.

Arbitration eligible in 2010, and it won't be cheap

 

[dparker713]

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

Crazy talk. Reyes is locked up cheap for several more years. And you never trade positional players with Reyes' ability for pitchers. Never ever.

Arbitration eligible in 2010, and it won't be cheap

So, cheap for 2008 and 2009. It'll be 2 years until the Mets have to pony up money for him, and even then they'll have exclusive rights. Compare that to Santana that is going to cost 20-25M THIS year and every year for the next 5-6 years. So, over the course of hte next 6 years Santana will cost roughly 120-150M, whereas Reyes is going to cost chump change for the next 2 years. Oh, and he's a positional player versus a pitcher - a much safer investment.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

Crazy talk. Reyes is locked up cheap for several more years. And you never trade positional players with Reyes' ability for pitchers. Never ever.

Arbitration eligible in 2010, and it won't be cheap

He'll be under $20M per year. I can tell you that much. Santana won't be.

 

[Gopher State]

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

Crazy talk. Reyes is locked up cheap for several more years. And you never trade positional players with Reyes' ability for pitchers. Never ever.

I would respectfully disagree about trading positional players with Reye's ability for pitchers. The pitcher we are talking about is a two time Cy Young winner, who is currently 28 years old in his prime, how many chances do you get to obtain a Cy Young pitcher in his prime? Anyone could of had A-Rod for the taking (for price of course) this year, good positional players are nice, but pitching wins championships. Santana is a very special pitcher, Reyes is a 24 year old very good position player, Santana is a proven Cy Young pitcher who is a difference maker, 20 game winners are not made every day.Lots of teams have good position players, but how many have two time Cy Young winner under the age of 30?

 

[Liquid Tension]

"They wonder if center fielder Melky Cabrera would struggle when taken out of the Yankees lineup. He'd probably be pitched to differently, which could cause him to struggle"

If I were a twins fan and my management said this, I would be concerened. It has been proven time and time again that protection does not help batter perform better. that is a writers fallacy. It doesn't seem right, but look at example after example...

 

[RC94]

This thread is like that Michael Turner thread from last off-season.

 

[Kiddnets]

Mets are crazy - they should give the Twins any prospect they want - imagine Santana in that must win game last year instead of Glavine! Santana would help them the most and put the MEts in the World Series IMO - if they can land him without giving up Reyes and Wright - take any farm player you want!

 

[Gopher State]

Baseball America recently ranked the New York Mets' top 10 prospects. Here is where the Mets prospects most frequently mentioned to be part of a trade with the Twins for Johan Santana rank: outfielder Fernando Martinez is first, righthander Deolis Guerra second, outfielder Carlos Gomez third, righthander Kevin Mulvey fourth and righthander Philip Humber seventh.

www.startribune.com/sidcast. shartman@startribune.com

 

[ooofffaaa]

Baseball America recently ranked the New York Mets' top 10 prospects. Here is where the Mets prospects most frequently mentioned to be part of a trade with the Twins for Johan Santana rank: outfielder Fernando Martinez is first, righthander Deolis Guerra second, outfielder Carlos Gomez third, righthander Kevin Mulvey fourth and righthander Philip Humber seventh.www.startribune.com/sidcast. shartman@startribune.com

It's their entire farm system and would leave them with the worst in the majors which would take years to correct. If the Red Sox and Yankees have dropped out are the Mets competing with themselves? Can Omar get Santana and save a prospect or two?With that said the Mets are in dire need of a true #1 ace and really need to make this move if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[the moops]

"They wonder if center fielder Melky Cabrera would struggle when taken out of the Yankees lineup. He'd probably be pitched to differently, which could cause him to struggle"

If I were a twins fan and my management said this, I would be concerened. It has been proven time and time again that protection does not help batter perform better. that is a writers fallacy. It doesn't seem right, but look at example after example...

Cause him to struggle? The guy had an OBP of 327, and a SLG of 391. I would say he has already proven that he struggles...regardless of any mythical lineup protection.I cant believe people are still pimping Cabrera as anything that the Twins would want. Yes, he is young. Yes, he has a good arm. That is all he has going for himself. I still find it amazing that a Yankee team with a 300 million dollar payroll played that scrub in CF for 150 games. Amazing.

 

[shadyridr]

"They wonder if center fielder Melky Cabrera would struggle when taken out of the Yankees lineup. He'd probably be pitched to differently, which could cause him to struggle"

If I were a twins fan and my management said this, I would be concerened. It has been proven time and time again that protection does not help batter perform better. that is a writers fallacy. It doesn't seem right, but look at example after example...

Cause him to struggle? The guy had an OBP of 327, and a SLG of 391. I would say he has already proven that he struggles...regardless of any mythical lineup protection.I cant believe people are still pimping Cabrera as anything that the Twins would want. Yes, he is young. Yes, he has a good arm. That is all he has going for himself. I still find it amazing that a Yankee team with a 300 million dollar payroll played that scrub in CF for 150 games. Amazing.

I think the Sox proved you dont need an AS at each position. They had a scrub at SS & CF

 

[the moops]

"They wonder if center fielder Melky Cabrera would struggle when taken out of the Yankees lineup. He'd probably be pitched to differently, which could cause him to struggle"

If I were a twins fan and my management said this, I would be concerened. It has been proven time and time again that protection does not help batter perform better. that is a writers fallacy. It doesn't seem right, but look at example after example...

Cause him to struggle? The guy had an OBP of 327, and a SLG of 391. I would say he has already proven that he struggles...regardless of any mythical lineup protection.I cant believe people are still pimping Cabrera as anything that the Twins would want. Yes, he is young. Yes, he has a good arm. That is all he has going for himself. I still find it amazing that a Yankee team with a 300 million dollar payroll played that scrub in CF for 150 games. Amazing.

I think the Sox proved you dont need an AS at each position. They had a scrub at SS & CF

And your point is? I made no mention of the Sox in this post. Not everything is about Sox/Yanks.Cabrera is not a good ballplayer. Probably a pretty good chance that he was the worst starting CF in the AL last year. Once again, he is cheap, and has a good arm. His defense is pretty bad, overall. He has no power, not much speed.I just dont get the "he may struggle if taken out of the Yankee lineup". He was freakin awful last year in that lineup.I also dont get why the Twins would want Coco. He may be the best defensive CF in the AL, but he was damn awful two years in a row now at the plate.

 

[shadyridr]

"They wonder if center fielder Melky Cabrera would struggle when taken out of the Yankees lineup. He'd probably be pitched to differently, which could cause him to struggle"

If I were a twins fan and my management said this, I would be concerened. It has been proven time and time again that protection does not help batter perform better. that is a writers fallacy. It doesn't seem right, but look at example after example...

Cause him to struggle? The guy had an OBP of 327, and a SLG of 391. I would say he has already proven that he struggles...regardless of any mythical lineup protection.I cant believe people are still pimping Cabrera as anything that the Twins would want. Yes, he is young. Yes, he has a good arm. That is all he has going for himself. I still find it amazing that a Yankee team with a 300 million dollar payroll played that scrub in CF for 150 games. Amazing.

I think the Sox proved you dont need an AS at each position. They had a scrub at SS & CF

And your point is? I made no mention of the Sox in this post. Not everything is about Sox/Yanks.Cabrera is not a good ballplayer. Probably a pretty good chance that he was the worst starting CF in the AL last year. Once again, he is cheap, and has a good arm. His defense is pretty bad, overall. He has no power, not much speed.I just dont get the "he may struggle if taken out of the Yankee lineup". He was freakin awful last year in that lineup.I also dont get why the Twins would want Coco. He may be the best defensive CF in the AL, but he was damn awful two years in a row now at the plate.

Why did you find it "amazing" that the Yanks had a scrub in CF? They also had a scrub at 1B. I find absolutely nothing amazing about it.

 

[the moops]

"They wonder if center fielder Melky Cabrera would struggle when taken out of the Yankees lineup. He'd probably be pitched to differently, which could cause him to struggle"

If I were a twins fan and my management said this, I would be concerened. It has been proven time and time again that protection does not help batter perform better. that is a writers fallacy. It doesn't seem right, but look at example after example...

Cause him to struggle? The guy had an OBP of 327, and a SLG of 391. I would say he has already proven that he struggles...regardless of any mythical lineup protection.I cant believe people are still pimping Cabrera as anything that the Twins would want. Yes, he is young. Yes, he has a good arm. That is all he has going for himself. I still find it amazing that a Yankee team with a 300 million dollar payroll played that scrub in CF for 150 games. Amazing.

I think the Sox proved you dont need an AS at each position. They had a scrub at SS & CF

And your point is? I made no mention of the Sox in this post. Not everything is about Sox/Yanks.Cabrera is not a good ballplayer. Probably a pretty good chance that he was the worst starting CF in the AL last year. Once again, he is cheap, and has a good arm. His defense is pretty bad, overall. He has no power, not much speed.I just dont get the "he may struggle if taken out of the Yankee lineup". He was freakin awful last year in that lineup.I also dont get why the Twins would want Coco. He may be the best defensive CF in the AL, but he was damn awful two years in a row now at the plate.

Why did you find it "amazing" that the Yanks had a scrub in CF? They also had a scrub at 1B. I find absolutely nothing amazing about it.

Still can't fathom why the Twins woud have any interest in him

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Source: Yankees pull trade offer for Santana

January 14

ESPN.com

"For the second time this offseason, the Yankees have pulled their Phil Hughes-centered trade offer for Johan Santana off the table. The Yankees, then, will not restart trade talks with the Twins unless Hank Steinbrenner has another change of heart, a baseball official with knowledge of the talks told 1050 ESPN Radio's Andrew Marchand."

 

[Koya]

Source: Yankees pull trade offer for SantanaJanuary 14ESPN.com"For the second time this offseason, the Yankees have pulled their Phil Hughes-centered trade offer for Johan Santana off the table. The Yankees, then, will not restart trade talks with the Twins unless Hank Steinbrenner has another change of heart, a baseball official with knowledge of the talks told 1050 ESPN Radio's Andrew Marchand."

Hank has already become a joke. It is obvious that whatever he says you can not believe. If he says sign now or we won't renegotiate later, ignore him. He's bluffing. If he says that the yanks are out of the trade talks, ignore him, he's bluffing.

 

[55555]

Economics? Reyes is going to cost a kings ransom. ......I love Reyes(I'm a Cub fan, and would trade everything)...............but you trade what ever you can to get Santana in the NL.......he would DOMINATE!!!!

Crazy talk. Reyes is locked up cheap for several more years. And you never trade positional players with Reyes' ability for pitchers. Never ever.

Arbitration eligible in 2010, and it won't be cheap

Mets control Reyes for 4 more years.2008 - $4 million 2009 - $5.75 million 2010 - $9 million 2011 - $11 million team option, $500,000 buyout

 

[[icon]]

LOL @ Hank the Tank... what a joke.

 

[shadyridr]

LOL @ Hank the Tank... what a joke.

Im not crazy about the guy but this latest blurb was not a comment made by him.

 

[Sea Bass]

Source: Yankees pull trade offer for SantanaJanuary 14ESPN.com"For the second time this offseason, the Yankees have pulled their Phil Hughes-centered trade offer for Johan Santana off the table. The Yankees, then, will not restart trade talks with the Twins unless Hank Steinbrenner has another change of heart, a baseball official with knowledge of the talks told 1050 ESPN Radio's Andrew Marchand."

Hank has already become a joke. It is obvious that whatever he says you can not believe. If he says sign now or we won't renegotiate later, ignore him. He's bluffing. If he says that the yanks are out of the trade talks, ignore him, he's bluffing.

I'd like to play poker with that dude.

 

[wilked]

Jim Callis, executive editor of Baseball America, said that even if the Yankees were to include left-hander Ian Kennedy in their offer or the Mets were to include hitting phenom Fernando Martinez, neither team’s package would be better than the Lester-Crisp package (Callis’ first choice) or the Ellsbury (No. 2 for Callis) offer.“The Red Sox are in the best position to offer blue-chip players as well as depth,” Callis said. “And, the Red Sox are under less pressure to make something happen because they need Santana less because they have fewer holes.”

 

[shadyridr]

Jim Callis, executive editor of Baseball America, said that even if the Yankees were to include left-hander Ian Kennedy in their offer or the Mets were to include hitting phenom Fernando Martinez, neither team’s package would be better than the Lester-Crisp package (Callis’ first choice) or the Ellsbury (No. 2 for Callis) offer.“The Red Sox are in the best position to offer blue-chip players as well as depth,” Callis said. “And, the Red Sox are under less pressure to make something happen because they need Santana less because they have fewer holes.”

IMO if the Mets included those 5 prospects they would have the best offer.

 

[shadyridr]

Manuel prefers the Red Sox’ offer topped by lefty Jon Lester [stats] and center fielder Coco Crisp [stats] because he thinks Lester can be a middle-of-the-rotation starter and that the other offer features the Sox selling “high” with outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury. Each offer includes infielder Jed Lowrie and right-hander Justin Masterson.Jim Callis, executive editor of Baseball America, said that even if the Yankees were to include left-hander Ian Kennedy in their offer or the Mets were to include hitting phenom Fernando Martinez, neither team’s package would be better than the Lester-Crisp package (Callis’ first choice) or the Ellsbury (No. 2 for Callis) offer.“The Red Sox are in the best position to offer blue-chip players as well as depth,” Callis said. “And, the Red Sox are under less pressure to make something happen because they need Santana less because they have fewer holes.”The Yankees shouldn’t be dismissed because their offer is led by Hughes, a pitcher who Callis and Manuel agree is the single-best talent being discussed. Melky Cabrera is no better than an average major-league outfielder, according to Callis and Manuel, and right-handed sinkerballer Jeff Marquez projects no higher than a No. 3-4 starter. Callis said Kennedy has “fringy” stuff; Manuel said he and scouts question if the lefty has one above-average major league pitch. The two do not believe that Kennedy’s inclusion in a Yankees deal should be a difference-maker for the Twins.

Here is the full article and its laughable. He says he likes Lester cuz he has middle of the rotation stuff but than he doesnt like Marquez cuz he only projects as a 3/4 starter. Then he calls Kennedy a lefty.

 

[ack34]

Manuel prefers the Red Sox’ offer topped by lefty Jon Lester [stats] and center fielder Coco Crisp [stats] because he thinks Lester can be a middle-of-the-rotation starter and that the other offer features the Sox selling “high” with outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury. Each offer includes infielder Jed Lowrie and right-hander Justin Masterson.Jim Callis, executive editor of Baseball America, said that even if the Yankees were to include left-hander Ian Kennedy in their offer or the Mets were to include hitting phenom Fernando Martinez, neither team’s package would be better than the Lester-Crisp package (Callis’ first choice) or the Ellsbury (No. 2 for Callis) offer.“The Red Sox are in the best position to offer blue-chip players as well as depth,” Callis said. “And, the Red Sox are under less pressure to make something happen because they need Santana less because they have fewer holes.”The Yankees shouldn’t be dismissed because their offer is led by Hughes, a pitcher who Callis and Manuel agree is the single-best talent being discussed. Melky Cabrera is no better than an average major-league outfielder, according to Callis and Manuel, and right-handed sinkerballer Jeff Marquez projects no higher than a No. 3-4 starter. Callis said Kennedy has “fringy” stuff; Manuel said he and scouts question if the lefty has one above-average major league pitch. The two do not believe that Kennedy’s inclusion in a Yankees deal should be a difference-maker for the Twins.

Here is the full article and its laughable. He says he likes Lester cuz he has middle of the rotation stuff but than he doesnt like Marquez cuz he only projects as a 3/4 starter. Then he calls Kennedy a lefty.

Doesn't Callis hate the Yankees? I could have sworn I've been in chats with that guy where he talks about how much he dislikes them. I think he would be a very fair judge of talent in this case.

 

[Gopher State]

Twins betting Santana Stakes still 3-horse race

If the Yankees were to back out, it would hurt the Twins' position with the Red Sox and Mets.

By JOE CHRISTENSEN, Star Tribune

Last update: January 15, 2008 - 7:13 AM

Are the Twins overplaying their hand in the Johan Santana trade talks?

It's possible. That thought came Monday, when ESPN.com ran the headline, "Source: Yankees again backing away from Santana."

If the Yankees ever truly reached the point of no return, it would theoretically cripple the Twins' leverage.

The Red Sox just won the World Series, and they have plenty of pitching to win again this year. They might want Santana, but they don't need him.

Their main goal has been keeping him away from the Yankees.

Meanwhile, the Mets need Santana desperately. But if the Red Sox and Yankees don't step forward with better offers, the Mets might not either.

When the Mets offered Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra, the Twins asked them to throw in top prospect Fernando Martinez. The Mets are holding their ground, offering Gomez but not Martinez.

The Newark Star-Ledger reported in today's editions that the Mets prefer Baltimore's Erik Bedard to Santana, as Bedard wouldn't require a big contract extension to complete the deal.

If a collapsing market caused the Mets to reduce their offers, an argument could be made that the Twins overplayed their hand. Some will argue they should have taken the best offer they had at the winter meetings and been done with this.

But the Twins seem confident they still have three interested teams. To them, the Santana situation is still status quo.

Citing a baseball official with knowledge of the talks, ESPN Radio (AM-1050) in New York reported Monday that the Yankees had pulled their offer with Phil Hughes off the table.

The New York Times has reported that the Hughes offer hasn't been available since the winter meetings.

"It's most likely that we're going to stay with what we've got," Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told The Times on Monday. "That always can change -- of course, that's up to Minnesota -- but there were no offers on the table. You don't make an offer unless you 100 percent intend to do it, and the final decision hasn't been made."

The Associated Press also reported Steinbrenner saying Monday night that no decision had been reached, and that the Yankees and Twins remained in discussions -- "There's still a little talk back and forth," he said.

The Twins seem confident they could bring the Yankees back with one phone call. Asked about the earlier ESPN headline, Twins General Manager Bill Smith said, "I'm not going to start responding to every report coming out of New York or Boston."

These teams have discussed countless scenarios. The Twins know the deals the Yankees, Red Sox and Mets would do, and vice versa.

No matter how much their patience is being tested, the Twins are waiting for these teams to come to them.

Asked if he can foresee a point where the Twins will announce they are no longer listening to offers for Santana, Smith said, "You never want to lock yourself out of an opportunity to make yourself better."

Smith disagreed with the theory that if certain teams pull out, the Santana market could collapse.

"Anybody who makes a trade for him is going to do it because it makes them better," he said. "We're not talking about a fourth starter here. We're talking about the best pitcher in the game."

That's a pretty good sign that the Twins won't lower their ultimate asking price to take an offer they can't stomach. Santana still could be their Opening Night starter March 31.

And that's the worst-case scenario.

Joe Christensen • jchristensen@startribune.com

 

[Deranged Hermit]

I see this breaking down this way right now (listed in order from most likely to least likely):

1. Mets get Santana before season

2. Sox gets Santana before season

3. Santana is traded at the trade deadline

4. Yanks get before season.

5. Santana is traded to another team.

6. Santana is not traded

My reasoning:

* The Mets are the only team of the three that NEEDS Santana. They'll go over the top eventually to get him IMO.

* Sox are second because they will trade for Santana if it keeps him from becoming a Yankee and they, arguably, are willing to put up better players to do it.

* Santana at the deadline would be a ballsy move that I really don't think the Twins brass has the stones to do.

* The Yanks can't get it done without adding Hughes. If they are willing to do that they'd climb up a lot on this list.

* Someone else (darkhorse like Angels, Cincy, M's, LA) could always enter the battle royal, but I don't see it happening right now.

 

[shadyridr]

I see this breaking down this way right now (listed in order from most likely to least likely):1. Mets get Santana before season2. Sox gets Santana before season3. Santana is traded at the trade deadline4. Yanks get before season.5. Santana is traded to another team.6. Santana is not tradedMy reasoning: * The Mets are the only team of the three that NEEDS Santana. They'll go over the top eventually to get him IMO. * Sox are second because they will trade for Santana if it keeps him from becoming a Yankee and they, arguably, are willing to put up better players to do it. * Santana at the deadline would be a ballsy move that I really don't think the Twins brass has the stones to do.* The Yanks can't get it done without adding Hughes. If they are willing to do that they'd climb up a lot on this list.* Someone else (darkhorse like Angels, Cincy, M's, LA) could always enter the battle royal, but I don't see it happening right now.

Id put 6 ahead of 5 but otherwise I agree.

 

[Captain Hook]

#5 should be ahead of 6 because

1) #6 presumes either Twins are winning their division OR there are no teams who want to trade for him at the deadline

2) Both LAA and LAD have more chips than the teams supposedly involved now, and while they may not offer them up now, they could change their mind depending on standings nearing the trade deadline.

 

[Gopher State]

I see this breaking down this way right now (listed in order from most likely to least likely):1. Mets get Santana before season2. Sox gets Santana before season3. Santana is traded at the trade deadline4. Yanks get before season.5. Santana is traded to another team.6. Santana is not tradedMy reasoning: * The Mets are the only team of the three that NEEDS Santana. They'll go over the top eventually to get him IMO. * Sox are second because they will trade for Santana if it keeps him from becoming a Yankee and they, arguably, are willing to put up better players to do it. * Santana at the deadline would be a ballsy move that I really don't think the Twins brass has the stones to do.* The Yanks can't get it done without adding Hughes. If they are willing to do that they'd climb up a lot on this list.* Someone else (darkhorse like Angels, Cincy, M's, LA) could always enter the battle royal, but I don't see it happening right now.

I agree with what you saying. What I don't understand is why the Yankees are not trying harder to make a deal. If Santana goes to Boston, doesn't that really hurt the Yankee's chances to over take the Sox in the standings/playoffs. It seems on paper if the Sox get Santana it really hurts the chances of all American Leage teams to make it to the WS.

 

[shadyridr]

I see this breaking down this way right now (listed in order from most likely to least likely):1. Mets get Santana before season2. Sox gets Santana before season3. Santana is traded at the trade deadline4. Yanks get before season.5. Santana is traded to another team.6. Santana is not tradedMy reasoning: * The Mets are the only team of the three that NEEDS Santana. They'll go over the top eventually to get him IMO. * Sox are second because they will trade for Santana if it keeps him from becoming a Yankee and they, arguably, are willing to put up better players to do it. * Santana at the deadline would be a ballsy move that I really don't think the Twins brass has the stones to do.* The Yanks can't get it done without adding Hughes. If they are willing to do that they'd climb up a lot on this list.* Someone else (darkhorse like Angels, Cincy, M's, LA) could always enter the battle royal, but I don't see it happening right now.

I agree with what you saying. What I don't understand is why the Yankees are not trying harder to make a deal. If Santana goes to Boston, doesn't that really hurt the Yankee's chances to over take the Sox in the standings/playoffs. It seems on paper if the Sox get Santana it really hurts the chances of all American Leage teams to make it to the WS.

Because there's no chance Minnesota accepts the package Boston has been offering and NY finally realizes that.

 

[Gopher State]

The Bronx Bombers would love to see the lefthander in pinstripes, but front-office personnel differ on how much he should cost in salary and young talent.

By SID HARTMAN, Star Tribune

Last update: January 16, 2008 - 8:28 PM

Hank Steinbrenner, son of New York Yankees owner George, made it clear Wednesday that the club still has some interest in making a deal for Twins lefthander Johan Santana, but there is not a unanimous opinion among club officials whether they should pay the Twins' asking price.

"At this point I think that it kind of looks like we probably won't do it, but that doesn't mean I don't want to," Hank said. "I'm kind of back and forth on it, and some people don't want to do it because of the money."

Hank said the Yankees would not give Santana a seven-year guaranteed contract calling for $140 million.

Brian Cashman, the Yankees general manager, and Hank's brother, Hal, also are not willing to give away a lot of young talent to get Santana.

"Just strictly because of the money, they are advising not to," Hank said. "But ... nobody would ever say 'don't do it' as far as getting Santana because nobody could say that. He's one of the two best pitchers in baseball, but I'm running into resistance.

"I think we could get him, but it's just a matter [of what] to give up. Certainly we don't want to give up [righthander] Phil Hughes and [center fielder] Melky Cabrera, but you know, look what you're getting.

"... It really comes down to if I want to do it, I can do it, but I want to try and keep everybody happy. I think the situation's probably the same in Boston. I think John Henry, the owner there, wants to do it. He wants to get him, too, but others don't. So he's just trying to keep everybody happy.

"I don't want to say what I would give, because Minnesota will claim I'm tampering. Yes, the door definitely isn't completely closed."

Hank said he believes the Mets are serious about trying to trade for Santana. "I think they may need him worse than we do or the Red Sox do," he said. "It's just a matter of do they have what it takes to trade for him."

I also had a nice talk with George following my conversation with Hank. He seemed to know what is going on, despite rumors to the contrary.

 

[Wrigley]

Is Hank a woman or what?

He just can't seem to make up his mind.

 

[Gopher State]

The Twins are expected to trade their star lefthander before spring training, and it might not be for any immediate help.

By BASEBALL INSIDER JOE CHRISTENSEN, Star Tribune

Last update: January 16, 2008 - 10:31 PM

The Johan Santana trade discussions have reached a quiet but crucial stage.

The Twins know what they can get. And they realize none of the packages will appease their fans, who might never forgive them for trading the two-time Cy Young Award winner.

Still, Twins officials privately say they think Santana will be traded before spring training opens next month.

For now, the Twins and the three most interested Santana suitors -- the Mets, Yankees and Red Sox -- are regrouping, trying to decide how far beyond their comfort zones they will go to close this deal. The end result might leave some Twins fans gasping for breath.

It's possible the Twins will trade Santana without landing one player who is universally recognized as a big help in 2008.

Lately, the Twins have seemed most intrigued with the Mets' offer.

The Mets are offering some combination of the following five players: Carlos Gomez, Fernando Martinez, Deolis Guerra, Philip Humber and Kevin Mulvey.

Gomez, 22, could step in immediately as the Twins' starting center fielder, but some scouts are skeptical about his bat.

The Twins are much higher on Martinez, 19, and Guerra, 18, even though they realize both might be in the minors until 2010.

As for Humber and Mulvey, neither projects as better than a No. 4 starter.

But if the Red Sox and Yankees don't improve their offers -- and the Twins have reason to believe they won't -- Santana could wind up with the Mets.

The Twins would make that deal and step into a public relations nightmare.

The media isn't kind at those moments. Just look at Twins history.

When they traded Chuck Knoblauch to the Yankees in February 1998, then-General Manager Terry Ryan was ripped for not getting New York to surrender prospects Ricky Ledee, Ramiro Mendoza and Luis de los Santos.

The Twins settled for Eric Milton, Cristian Guzman, Brian Buchanan and Danny Mota. None was expected to reach the big leagues that first season, but Milton did, joining the starting rotation. Guzman took over at shortstop in 1999.

The headline writers had a field day. A sampling:

"Twins' Ryan booted this one."

"Stealing second."

"Deal reveals Minny madness."

Mendoza remained a key reliever and occasional starter for the Yankees. But de los Santos went on to appear in only three big-league games.

Ledee was the quintessential five-tool prospect. The common criticism went, "How could the Twins trade a four-time All-Star and not get Ledee?"

Well, Ledee never matched the hype. He retired last season after years of failing to impress as a big-league regular.

Milton and Guzman started the 1997 season at Class A. When they joined the Twins the following year, most people said, who?

Both became All-Stars.

Knoblauch played in four World Series for the Yankees, but the trade paid huge dividends for the Twins.

Minnesota eventually traded Milton to Philadelphia for Carlos Silva and Nick Punto, and Buchanan got traded to San Diego for another little-known minor leaguer named Jason Bartlett.

If the Twins don't get Phil Hughes or Jacoby Ellsbury for Santana, many will look at the holes they have left for 2008 and judge the trade as a failure. But maybe Hughes and Ellsbury will never match the hype.

Time will be the true judge.

In 2003, some thought the Twins were fleeced when they sent A.J. Pierzynski to the Giants for Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser and Francisco Liriano.

That day, Giants GM Brian Sabean said, "It's not often that you can send a reliever and two unproven prospects for a front-line, lefthanded-hitting All-Star catcher."

Yeah, silly Twins.

Joe Christensen • jchristensen@startribune.com