The Kicker - Why do we include them on rosters? (1 Viewer)

[FreeBaGeL]

I'm really surprised to see that people are eager to get rid of the "luck" of kickers, but are fine with playing head-to-head schedule where the random schedule usually determines which teams are in the playoffs and which ones are not. If I can take your playoff teams, play with their schedule and have them miss the playoffs (and do the reverse with teams that missed the playoffs), your whole league is based on luck.Nothing wrong with playing the way you want to play, of course. But railing against the luck factor of kickers while your season's fortunes are determined by a randomly-generated schedule is kind of funny, no? I mean, aren't you failing to address the single-biggest luck element in your league? You can't use luck as an argument and advocate basing your entire league on it at the same time.IOW, leave the lil kickers alone!

The difference is that H2H brings tons of additional fun along with its additional luck, so it's a sacrifice worth making. Kickers bring luck, but add nothing useful.

 

[Cenobite]

I'm really surprised to see that people are eager to get rid of the "luck" of kickers, but are fine with playing head-to-head schedule where the random schedule usually determines which teams are in the playoffs and which ones are not. If I can take your playoff teams, play with their schedule and have them miss the playoffs (and do the reverse with teams that missed the playoffs), your whole league is based on luck.Nothing wrong with playing the way you want to play, of course. But railing against the luck factor of kickers while your season's fortunes are determined by a randomly-generated schedule is kind of funny, no? I mean, aren't you failing to address the single-biggest luck element in your league? You can't use luck as an argument and advocate basing your entire league on it at the same time.IOW, leave the lil kickers alone!

Very true. I avoid H2H leagues like the plague and will only play in overall points leagues. The luck factor should be minimized as much as possible so I have always voted to do away with kicker scoring.

 

[RushHour]

I haven't always been in favour of having kickers in fantasy, but Ron Bironas saved my a** today.....won my matchup by 1 point and he had 18 of them.

 

[Lord Lucan]

It's really reassuring how many people in this thread still think kickers' fantasy performances depend entirely on luck, as it means the various edges available to those who know different is likely to continue for some time to come. I'm not going to give all those edges away on here (though Mike Herman has made many of the edges freely available), but if people think all NFL stadia are the same for kickers, especially in terms of kicking long-range FGs, they are sadly mistaken. If you play in a league where extra points are awarded for 50+ yard kicks, as many leagues do, then kicker selection strategy is huge. Yes, there is a big slice of luck involved, but if you are starting an away kicker at Heinz Field in December, for instance, or you have no idea which stadia regularly see teams attempt FGs from 50 yards plus and which are punting/go for it territory beyond about 48 yards, then you are probably going to conclude it's all 100% luck.

 

[Chaka]

It's really reassuring how many people in this thread still think kickers' fantasy performances depend entirely on luck, as it means the various edges available to those who know different is likely to continue for some time to come. I'm not going to give all those edges away on here (though Mike Herman has made many of the edges freely available), but if people think all NFL stadia are the same for kickers, especially in terms of kicking long-range FGs, they are sadly mistaken. If you play in a league where extra points are awarded for 50+ yard kicks, as many leagues do, then kicker selection strategy is huge. Yes, there is a big slice of luck involved, but if you are starting an away kicker at Heinz Field in December, for instance, or you have no idea which stadia regularly see teams attempt FGs from 50 yards plus and which are punting/go for it territory beyond about 48 yards, then you are probably going to conclude it's all 100% luck.

It is not really a matter of skill or luck it is a matter of point distribution. Kickers have far and away the least range between the #1 & #12 (or #24) starter at their position. There is very little difference between the #1 kicker and the #12 kicker.

 

[Lord Lucan]

It's really reassuring how many people in this thread still think kickers' fantasy performances depend entirely on luck, as it means the various edges available to those who know different is likely to continue for some time to come. I'm not going to give all those edges away on here (though Mike Herman has made many of the edges freely available), but if people think all NFL stadia are the same for kickers, especially in terms of kicking long-range FGs, they are sadly mistaken. If you play in a league where extra points are awarded for 50+ yard kicks, as many leagues do, then kicker selection strategy is huge. Yes, there is a big slice of luck involved, but if you are starting an away kicker at Heinz Field in December, for instance, or you have no idea which stadia regularly see teams attempt FGs from 50 yards plus and which are punting/go for it territory beyond about 48 yards, then you are probably going to conclude it's all 100% luck.

It is not really a matter of skill or luck it is a matter of point distribution. Kickers have far and away the least range between the #1 & #12 (or #24) starter at their position. There is very little difference between the #1 kicker and the #12 kicker.

Yes, if you are only going to look at each kicker's stats at the end of the season. That's the mistake most people in FF make with kickers; they draft one at the start of the season and play him every week, bar a switch at the bye. There is more scope to pick up and drop kickers than at any other position (because most teams only carry one). The opposition and the stadium the game being played in are as importnat as the kicker.

 

[Chaka]

It's really reassuring how many people in this thread still think kickers' fantasy performances depend entirely on luck, as it means the various edges available to those who know different is likely to continue for some time to come. I'm not going to give all those edges away on here (though Mike Herman has made many of the edges freely available), but if people think all NFL stadia are the same for kickers, especially in terms of kicking long-range FGs, they are sadly mistaken. If you play in a league where extra points are awarded for 50+ yard kicks, as many leagues do, then kicker selection strategy is huge. Yes, there is a big slice of luck involved, but if you are starting an away kicker at Heinz Field in December, for instance, or you have no idea which stadia regularly see teams attempt FGs from 50 yards plus and which are punting/go for it territory beyond about 48 yards, then you are probably going to conclude it's all 100% luck.

It is not really a matter of skill or luck it is a matter of point distribution. Kickers have far and away the least range between the #1 & #12 (or #24) starter at their position. There is very little difference between the #1 kicker and the #12 kicker.

Yes, if you are only going to look at each kicker's stats at the end of the season. That's the mistake most people in FF make with kickers; they draft one at the start of the season and play him every week, bar a switch at the bye. There is more scope to pick up and drop kickers than at any other position (because most teams only carry one). The opposition and the stadium the game being played in are as importnat as the kicker.

Really? Weather and the opponent impact the performance of fantasy players?If your league has a free waiver wire then, sure, why not try to play those percentages otherwise the position simply is not worth it as anything more than an optional starter (e.g. as a floater).

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Just a little bumperooni. We've gone a year without the kicker. One of the best things we ever did.

 

[JB Breakfast Club]

I took them out of my league this year. Maybe the NFL will get rid of all kicking/special teams in the next CBA (someone start a study that shows how disproportionately high concussions are for special teams players) and we won't have to worry about it.

Seriously, always play 4 downs...start every series after a score on the 30...no punters and no kickers. TDs = 1 point. NFL scores become 4-2. Love it!

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

I took them out of my league this year. Maybe the NFL will get rid of all kicking/special teams in the next CBA (someone start a study that shows how disproportionately high concussions are for special teams players) and we won't have to worry about it. Seriously, always play 4 downs...start every series after a score on the 30...no punters and no kickers. TDs = 1 point. NFL scores become 4-2. Love it!

That's played.Kickers are lame.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Kick it!

 

[Steelfan7]

Kickers in fantasy are lame. Little more than a function of the offense,

Well if THAT'S all

PS "digit" is spelled with 2 "i's," FYI.

Thanks for the correction. I used to be a spelling whiz but I've just grown accustomed to Word fixing my typing. Not a good habit.Anyway, I think you understand my point about the offense. The QB, RB and WRs do all the hard work and if they can put it in the endzone when on the opponent's end, in comes the kicker to grab a few points. The kicker had nothing to do with the offense's performance.

I don't begrudge the kicker in the real game. I just think in fantasy that the kicker is lame. There's no strategy to drafting one required, they're never included in trade talks in your league, they get picked up for $1 in auctions. Just a total waste.

I beg to differ and say the OL does all the hard work.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Kickers in fantasy are lame. Little more than a function of the offense,

Well if THAT'S all

PS "digit" is spelled with 2 "i's," FYI.

Thanks for the correction. I used to be a spelling whiz but I've just grown accustomed to Word fixing my typing. Not a good habit.Anyway, I think you understand my point about the offense. The QB, RB and WRs do all the hard work and if they can put it in the endzone when on the opponent's end, in comes the kicker to grab a few points. The kicker had nothing to do with the offense's performance.

I don't begrudge the kicker in the real game. I just think in fantasy that the kicker is lame. There's no strategy to drafting one required, they're never included in trade talks in your league, they get picked up for $1 in auctions. Just a total waste.

I beg to differ and say the OL does all the hard work.

Fair enough. Kickers still suck in fantasy.

 

[Hoss Style]

The comparisons to OL is not relevant. Kickers score points on a regular basis. It is my belief that kickers were initially included in FF because of this.

Instead of saying kickers are all luck (which they're not, even in FF) try looking at your scoring system for kicking as inadequate.

Sure, the scoring between your top kicker and the middle of the pack kicker is small. I'm not saying it's not. We have 22 rounds in our draft and I usually don't even draft one because it's a keeper league. I use that spot to scout rookies in the preseason.

But, as was posted earlier by Mike Herman, how can you read the Kickology article and not say there is some skill involved? For those not interested in reading here are just a few basic points made in the article:

[*]Similar to number of field goals attempted, there is an obvious correlation between field goal accuracy and kicking points scored

[*]Kickers down at the low end of the accuracy range are almost assured of not scoring many points.

He seems to know what the heck he's talking about and until the other side posts anything close to this comprehensive I'm going to go with Mike on this one.

Yes, I understand that the "standard" scoring of kickers in many leagues is not important to some. Maybe change your scoring system to effectively evaluate the talent of kickers. I research kickers in my Keeper Leauge because the scoring system encourages it. Accuracy, penalties for misses, distance and missed XP penalties are all factored in. Do I spend loads of time on it? No. But it's a little extra mustard for the league - with our scoring system - that makes a bit of a difference.

Kickers are useless in most of my fantasy leagues because the scoring structure makes them that way.

 

[Hoss Style]

Just as a quick add on:

Living in Denver I see games every single year where the opposing team attempts kicks that would normally be out of their kicker's range in other stadiums.

With the proper scoring system this is factored into FF scoring.

Bronco's kickers are always off the board early in our league (early for kickers, I mean). As long as he's accurate, of course.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Kickers are useless in most of my fantasy leagues because the scoring structure makes them that way.

I completely agree with this. I like the idea of staggered points for longer field goals and I like minus points for missed field goals. Just like a QB, RB, WR, TE may lose points on a fumble or interception, field goal kickers should get minus points for missing. No free rides.

 

[OrangeCurtain]

What I think would add a nice bit of strategy to the draft is to combine the kicker with the D/ST.

Then you're looking at the team's schedule from multiple angles (opponent strength, indoor vs. outdoor, cold vs. warm, etc.).

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

The movement continues...

 

[GregR]

What I think would add a nice bit of strategy to the draft is to combine the kicker with the D/ST.Then you're looking at the team's schedule from multiple angles (opponent strength, indoor vs. outdoor, cold vs. warm, etc.).

I realize I'm replying to a year old post... but I think this is the opposite of strategy. It's bad enough having defenses and special teams combined. A lot of the time a good defense means giving up few scores which means few kick return yards which means a poor kick return unit. And poor defenses get more kick returns so more return points. So by combining them you're normally dragging down the good defenses and raising up the crappy defenses and making the majority of units closer to average. The less separation there is, the less valuable they are and the less worth their is in predicting them right. While you'll have a few rare places where a great Bears D and Devin Hester combine for a super powered unit, having one super valuable unit and 10 other starters that are less valuable because of the combination doesn't lend itself to making the position important in strategy after that first one is chosen.Best thing for letting skill distinguish itself is to separate Def and ST and as their own separate entities. A good FF owner may be able to predict if a given team will get scored on a lot so get a lot of kick return opportunities. And be able to predict if a team's D will shut down the opposition's offense. But trying to predict how these two conflicting factors combine is just a muddle.

 

[FF Ninja]

I didn't read through all of this, but I've found that if you've gotta have a kicker in your league then rolling with the kicker on your starting QB's team works pretty well if you're looking for consistency, so long as your QB1 is on a top flight offense. Obviously a dominant goal line RB can ruin this scenario, so YMMV, but it generally works pretty well in my experience. You eliminate the chances of getting a 4 TD game form your QB plus a 5 FG from your kicker, but the likelihood of both being duds is pretty small.

 

[butcher boy]

I agree with getting rid of a kicker.

I also feel the same about IDP. They suffer the same problem where aside from the top guys, you can just pick up whoever you want off the waiver wire at any time, plug them in and get pretty much the same production. Whenever I've played an IDP league, it seemed like a tedious and pointless exercise each week dealing with IDP bye weeks.

 

[SWC]

not having ks would be crazy yeah the difference year to year from 1 to 12 is not that big but it is if you play matchups and know what you are doing and are a fantasy football ninja asasin and people that do not like them probably just do not know how to use them correctly and want the game dumbed down well i for one am againt the dumbing down of america so i vote to keep them take that to proud to be an american hulk hogan brohans

 

[Mr.Underhill]

I'm in a league that utilizes punters. Next year we're thinking about adding offensive linemen too. Leave the kickers be.

Kickers are not football players. The last kicker that was a "real" football player was Jim O'Brien of 1970 Colts. Even though he kicked the game winner in SB V, he wasn't much of a kicker, but was a backup WR.

Do kickers impact football games?

They do, but so do punters. I don't see many leagues using them. The scoring difference between top to bottom doesn't make them worth using IMO. When only 41 points separate #1 from #20 I rest my case. I also think leagues should get rid of team defenses. Talk about a position that changes year to year and is a crap shoot most of the tiime.

So they impact a football game but should not impact a fantasy football game. I don't buy that. And if you're frustrated with team defenses might I suggest IDP, you'll never go back.

So even though there's not much difference between the top kicker and kicker #20, you think kickers are useful in FF?

This is a game where we pretend that a QB and a WR from different teams in the most team-oriented sport in the world play for the same team. WTF does "useful" have to do with anything?Snobbery has no place in any endeavor that contains "fantasy" anywhere in the name. Well, except for team defenses. Might as well use team offenses and save everyone a bunch of time. A draft could be shortened to 4 rounds and everyone could get back home to mow the lawn all the sooner.

 

[FF Ninja]

I stand corrected.

not having ks would be crazy yeah the difference year to year from 1 to 12 is not that big but it is if you play matchups and know what you are doing and are a fantasy football ninja asasin and people that do not like them probably just do not know how to use them correctly and want the game dumbed down well i for one am againt the dumbing down of america so i vote to keep them take that to proud to be an american hulk hogan brohans

/thread

 

[TheCommish]

you ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's kicker scored like 15 PTs?

You ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's QB scored like 50 points? What's the difference? Scoring anomalies happen. The unpredictability and randomness from game to game is what makes FF so great.

 

[Manster]

good point commish.

and the bigger question might be why this thread is still goin.

if you dont like having kickers, get your league to do away with the position. Or just deal with it.

 

[Instinctive]

you ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's kicker scored like 15 PTs?

You ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's QB scored like 50 points? What's the difference? Scoring anomalies happen. The unpredictability and randomness from game to game is what makes FF so great.

No it's not. The picking the right guys in the draft and off the wire and managing your team well and trading make it great. Adding more elements of luck > skill is bad.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Kickers are there because they've always been there. They've always been there because in the beginning, FF was a scoring-only game, and kickers were one of the few positions that scored points.

 

[ratbast]

The drama a K provides on any given week is too good to eliminate. They are fun!

 

[DiStefano]

I have been thinking of giving extra points to my defensive players if they injure an opponent. That way it will more closely mirror the real NFL.

 

[Johnny Blood]

you ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's kicker scored like 15 PTs?

You ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's QB scored like 50 points? What's the difference? Scoring anomalies happen. The unpredictability and randomness from game to game is what makes FF so great.

No it's not. The picking the right guys in the draft and off the wire and managing your team well and trading make it great. Adding more elements of luck > skill is bad.

In most leagues, the luck element of kicking actually increases the role of skill. If anyone in your league is blowing high picks on kickers, or carrying multiple kickers at any point of the season, or blindly starting the one they drafted every week, then it actually increases the role of skill. It's just a subsidy for people who know what they are doing.

 

[Instinctive]

you ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's kicker scored like 15 PTs?

You ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's QB scored like 50 points? What's the difference? Scoring anomalies happen. The unpredictability and randomness from game to game is what makes FF so great.

No it's not. The picking the right guys in the draft and off the wire and managing your team well and trading make it great. Adding more elements of luck > skill is bad.

In most leagues, the luck element of kicking actually increases the role of skill. If anyone in your league is blowing high picks on kickers, or carrying multiple kickers at any point of the season, or blindly starting the one they drafted every week, then it actually increases the role of skill. It's just a subsidy for people who know what they are doing.

This is an awful sentence. Of course if the people in your league AREN'T morons, so they don't carry multiple kickers or draft them high...it just increases the elements of luck for the most part.

 

[Pura Vida]

Negative points for kickers are the worst. Nothing like losing a game because your kicker scored -6 !!!! Still, NFL teams lose games because of kickers (and we pattern our game after the nfl game) so wtf- lets keep the kicker and all the insanity and unpredictability that goes with it.

 

[Johnny Blood]

you ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's kicker scored like 15 PTs?

You ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's QB scored like 50 points? What's the difference? Scoring anomalies happen. The unpredictability and randomness from game to game is what makes FF so great.

No it's not. The picking the right guys in the draft and off the wire and managing your team well and trading make it great. Adding more elements of luck > skill is bad.

In most leagues, the luck element of kicking actually increases the role of skill. If anyone in your league is blowing high picks on kickers, or carrying multiple kickers at any point of the season, or blindly starting the one they drafted every week, then it actually increases the role of skill. It's just a subsidy for people who know what they are doing.

This is an awful sentence. Of course if the people in your league AREN'T morons, so they don't carry multiple kickers or draft them high...it just increases the elements of luck for the most part.

This isn't even a grammatical sentence. Aside from that, you ignored the point that your league doesn't have to have idiots who mismanage their draft and/or carry multiple kickers, it just has to have people who ignore variations in stadiums and weather.

When looking at total season scoring, picking kickers is almost the same as picking coin-flippers. But that's not the case on a week to week basis, and people can screw that up without being morons who totally mismanage their roster with respect to kickers. That said, I certainly have no big objection to people who want to get rid of kickers. But in most leagues, where you have variation in skill, commitment, and transaction activity, it is in the stronger players' interest to keep kickers. It gives them a small boost.

Stronger players can also use their kicker to postpone serious drop decisions and basically expand their roster size by one during the week. The kicker can be the player you drop for all your acquisitions and there's no need to carry one until the next Sunday. It's not just morons who fail to exploit this.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Negative points for kickers are the worst. Nothing like losing a game because your kicker scored -6 !!!! Still, NFL teams lose games because of kickers (and we pattern our game after the nfl game) so wtf- lets keep the kicker and all the insanity and unpredictability that goes with it.

No we don't. This is a fantasy myth.

 

[Pura Vida]

It is obviously not exactly patterned after the nfl- but all rule changes in our league are subjected to the 'how does this relate to the nfl) We try to use the nfl as a guideline when we make new rules. There is no doubt you can find countless examples as to how fantasy is different from the nfl- but overall it is definitely patterned after it.

 

[DiStefano]

Negative points for kickers are the worst. Nothing like losing a game because your kicker scored -6 !!!! Still, NFL teams lose games because of kickers (and we pattern our game after the nfl game) so wtf- lets keep the kicker and all the insanity and unpredictability that goes with it.

No we don't. This is a fantasy myth.

Riiiiiiiight. We pattern it after...let's see, soccer? rugby? cricket? bocce? darts? golf? archery? windsurfing? the America's Cup? skiing? gymnastics...

Maybe the NFL does have a little to do with it. Not carbon copy, but closer than ice-skating.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I have been thinking of giving extra points to my defensive players if they injure an opponent. That way it will more closely mirror the real NFL.

LolzCouple years ago I was streaming k -- think I went about 5 Weeks straight without getting even 3 points

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Negative points for kickers are the worst. Nothing like losing a game because your kicker scored -6 !!!! Still, NFL teams lose games because of kickers (and we pattern our game after the nfl game) so wtf- lets keep the kicker and all the insanity and unpredictability that goes with it.

No we don't. This is a fantasy myth.

Riiiiiiiight. We pattern it after...let's see, soccer? rugby? cricket? bocce? darts? golf? archery? windsurfing? the America's Cup? skiing? gymnastics...

Maybe the NFL does have a little to do with it. Not carbon copy, but closer than ice-skating.

You presume that we pattern it after something. We don't. It's just a game based on individual performance in a sport. Perhaps the best evidence of this is that our game has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the actual game. I could win ten weeks in a row with every guy on my fantasy team being part of a losing NFL team. Does it matter? No. Nobody cares because fantasy is nothing more than a game based on the performance of individuals. I probably don't need to - or maybe I do - note that NFL teams don't get points for each reception, blocked field goal, yard rushing, or negative points for each pick or fumble. I didn't say we don't pattern fantasy after NFL because it more closely resembles the sports you mention. I said we don't pattern it after the NFL because fantasy doesn't pattern itself after any sport, including football. We leverage the statistics to play fantasy, but that doesn't mean we resemble the NFL. To think otherwise is just plain stupid.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

It is obviously not exactly patterned after the nfl- but all rule changes in our league are subjected to the 'how does this relate to the nfl) We try to use the nfl as a guideline when we make new rules. There is no doubt you can find countless examples as to how fantasy is different from the nfl- but overall it is definitely patterned after it.

I would be surprised if the bold is true unless your league is as pure a fantasy league as you can get, which is pretty much points awarded for each NFL point scored. But, I understand your point. Mine is simple. For decades, fantasy guys, new and old, claim that the decisions made in their league are made in order to mirror the NFL.. "We can't have that rule because that's not how the NFL does it!" This is ridiculous. Fantasy doesn't come close to resembling a sport and more closely resembles Dungeons and Dragons. You play your team. Who plays defense against you? Nobody. You play your guys, who score no touchdowns, but still you beat your opponent because you had a great day with PPR and yards gained. How does that resemble a sport?Fantasy is not patterned after the NFL. It just leverages statistical accounting to form a game. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DiStefano]

Negative points for kickers are the worst. Nothing like losing a game because your kicker scored -6 !!!! Still, NFL teams lose games because of kickers (and we pattern our game after the nfl game) so wtf- lets keep the kicker and all the insanity and unpredictability that goes with it.

No we don't. This is a fantasy myth.

Riiiiiiiight. We pattern it after...let's see, soccer? rugby? cricket? bocce? darts? golf? archery? windsurfing? the America's Cup? skiing? gymnastics...

Maybe the NFL does have a little to do with it. Not carbon copy, but closer than ice-skating.

You presume that we pattern it after something. We don't. It's just a game based on individual performance in a sport. Perhaps the best evidence of this is that our game has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the actual game. I could win ten weeks in a row with every guy on my fantasy team being part of a losing NFL team. Does it matter? No. Nobody cares because fantasy is nothing more than a game based on the performance of individuals. I probably don't need to - or maybe I do - note that NFL teams don't get points for each reception, blocked field goal, yard rushing, or negative points for each pick or fumble. I didn't say we don't pattern fantasy after NFL because it more closely resembles the sports you mention. I said we don't pattern it after the NFL because fantasy doesn't pattern itself after any sport, including football. We leverage the statistics to play fantasy, but that doesn't mean we resemble the NFL. To think otherwise is just plain stupid.

I see your point, but then you have to spoil it by a pejorative term. Is it very different from NFL football? Yes, it is. Could it be played if we rolled dice instead of NFL stats? Yes, it could. But the fact is, we use NFL stats, and tend to reward things that the NFL rewards--but very differently. So, we don't play it by rolling dice, and we look at the individual stats of people actually performing on the field in an NFL game. Some of the arguments take place about how far away from the game should we get; and so some argue for a closer relationship to what actually happens on the field, and some argue for a more distant relationship because it makes the game more interesting. Not stupid on either side, just differing points of view.