Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Nope. 10 steps, regulation height and depth, a landing for a 180 degree turn, and ten regulation steps up to the next floor with a generous landing, regulation size.
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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Updates: I graduated on Friday! BAR Studying time started today. I also need to sit for the Patent bar with only three weeks of studying RIGHT after.
Also, I was just extended an offer at one of our three local IP firms, so that's some pressure off of me. It also provides extra incentive to perform, and not slack off during the next two and a half months of hell.
Also, I was just extended an offer at one of our three local IP firms, so that's some pressure off of me. It also provides extra incentive to perform, and not slack off during the next two and a half months of hell.
Zow
Footballguy
That's gotta feel so relieving.
My advice on the bar: Treat studying for it like a full time job. Ideally, you're doing Bar/Bri. Just do it from 8-5 on M-F. Follow the schedule. Do the practice multiple choice test at night or listen to the audios (if you're doing that option) while working out, driving, etc. Still have a life though. If you put in 40 hrs./week you're not going to fail and you won't be killing yourself.
Also, remember this joke:
What do you call the person with the worst passing score on the bar exam?
A lawyer who had a life that summer.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Nice, thanks for the advice. And yea, it is a huge relief with so many of my classmates not finding work yet I almost feel lucky to find a job in the exact field and type of work I wanted to be doing. I now feel justified since I dropped a pretty steady career just to incur 3 years of school work and massive amounts of debt.
I went Themis (since they are geared toward everything being done remotely, even calls/external conferences with your answer reviewers.) I did cover my bases and checked out BarBri for a little bit, their material wasn't too different and similarly structured. However, I knew I wasn't going to take advantage of their live stuff, so it would have been a waste. I also looked at KAPLAN and Pieper, but I wasn't keen on either of them.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
And I assume not designed by Euclid as some sort of paradoxical staircase of wonder?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Nope, nor M.C. Escher. It is your standard grade, depressing, unimaginative, low bidder government building. Cookie cutter and well vetted. Not a single distinguishing, unique, or imaginative detail. Every county in the country has at least one, likewise for several old soviet block countries.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I can't wait.
I also like that the Plaintiff currently has his doctors listed as his experts when it seems likely to me they will seek to add them as defendants at some point. I mean an original treatment of light restriction and support but released back to light duty followed by four unsuccessful and increasingly invasive surgeries with amputation now scheduled. The way this is being handled fascinates and baffles me, on both sides. Were we anything more than an interested non-party with a subrogation interest I would be spellbound.
Seems clear to me that the painting contractor who did not use a silicate additive for traction which was ordered but not used is a natural party, but thus far they remain outside the suit.
Well, my career has involved prosecution primarily, criminal appeals work included as well as defense of excessive force matters. Well that, some drug abatement assignments and some teaching of prosecutors, cops, and advising a police department. This litigation is new to me. I'm just watching with fascination. It should be a fun learning experience.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
If you're just subrogated at this point, tell the plaintiff attorney about all this. It'll help your chances of getting your money back and get you potentially involved with the plaintiff side, where the $$ is.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
As you know there are no secrets in litigation. Plaintiffs counsel is aware and we are in contact. Thee is a JAG hearing today. I understand Plaintiffs are demanding $1,000,000.00 today and do not plan on moving off that offer. Todays hearing will deteriorate fast with neither side budging, likely. Thee is a trial date set in two months with subpoenas having issued yesterday. That, of course, will not actually happen as both sides are still doing depos and his amputation surgery is scheduled only the week before the trial date.Henry Ford said:
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Well the situation is really unique so let's try a hypothetical:Zow said:
- let's say a man shoots his wife, dead. No one is around.
- Man freaks out, is not sure what to do, so he calls his attorney, who comes to the scene.
- Attorney says, "Man you have really done it, you are headed to the pen. You better do something with that gun."
- Attorney takes the gun, drives a few blocks, hides it in a warehouse. (Or Man hides it in a warehouse on the lawyer's advice).
- Cops show up. Man and lawyer say they have no idea what happened. Cops leave, they seem to buy the explanation.
- Months pass and investigators conclude something is fishy, they determine the Man had a gun, they ask for it or they will get a warrant and take it.
- Man and lawyer hand over gun but still deny Man had anything to do with the shooting.
So, hypothetically: can the man or lawyer refuse to answer questions from the police about what they did with the gun on the basis of attorney client privilege (as opposed to taking the 5th)? And does it matter if it's police vs the FBI or a grand jury or trial?
eta - it seems to me if questioned about obstructing justice or being an accessory the lawyer can refuse to answer, period, just like any suspect, or he can take the 5th, or he can get some sort of immunity deal where he can speak freely without consequences, but what he can't do is claim attorney client privilege and pretend that is a prophylactic which protects him in and of itself.
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Otis
Footballguy
Congrats. Remember you start building your reputation at your firm right away, and one the partners there have a perception, it will take some time to change. Make yourself in demand, be responsive, communicate, work hard and take ownership of not just the piece of the task handed your way, but issues surrounding that task. Care about the outcome. Perhaps the best career advice I ever got was "act like an owner." I don't feel you can start doing that too early.FattyVM said:
Best of luck, knock out those bar exams. The State bar still stinks; I understand the patent bar is now given on a computer with a searchable MPEP (back in my day it was an exercise in tabbing the thing well and being able to find your way around quickly to really silly minutiae that noone in their right mind should ever commit to memory).
And I agree with Woz except on one point: don't be the guy failing bar exams because you wanted to have a life. Your goal this summer should be to have no life at all. Study constantly. Take it very seriously. Another wrong way to start building the reputation within the firm is to be the one new associate who has to come in and take the bar again.
Thorn
Footballguy
Yes! As a new-ish partner, I can tell you the difference bxt a good associate and a bad one is basically summed up in that sentence. One associate does what is asked, but never thinks beyond the direct task assigned. The other does what is asked, but also stays on top of the calendar, or offers to take on the next logical step in a matter, etc.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
All of this, especially the last bit.
Unless you were the guy who killed Bin Laden, there is nothing in your life that you have done that is as important as passing the bar is right now. It is all you should put your energy into. Every beer you have, every movie you see, and every weekend trip you take lowers your score. Do not put yourself in a position to fail.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I suppose I'll give my perspective as a not particularly successful associate. Obviously, don't be lazy, sloppy, or conflict avoidant. That is bad. But I've also seen a lot of excellent junior associates throw themselves with willful abandon into the grind, kill themselves for seven years, and never develop beyond the drudge work monkey that made them good junior associates but bad candidates for partner. The two jobs are very different and big firms at least are terrible at helping associates make the step up.
Don't be the associate distinguishing himself by constantly trying to rack up 250 billable hour months and being afraid to schedule a vacation. Be the associate who takes enough pride in his work product that the firm recognizes that he deserves the occasional down month and the right to take a vacation.
As for the bar, I personally studied a lot less than 40 hours a week. I watched all the Bar Bri lectures but maybe did 2 or 3 extra hours a week, until the week before when I crammed like everyone else. I spent more time that summer on disc golf I probably did less than I should have, but I passed.
Don't be the associate distinguishing himself by constantly trying to rack up 250 billable hour months and being afraid to schedule a vacation. Be the associate who takes enough pride in his work product that the firm recognizes that he deserves the occasional down month and the right to take a vacation.
As for the bar, I personally studied a lot less than 40 hours a week. I watched all the Bar Bri lectures but maybe did 2 or 3 extra hours a week, until the week before when I crammed like everyone else. I spent more time that summer on disc golf I probably did less than I should have, but I passed.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Virginia. Considered a "hard" state, but certainly not as unique as Louisiana. My wife pretty much killed herself studying for the bar the year before. She was really, really pissed at me.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I bet.
Louisiana is more endurance than anything else. Basically to find out if you can write a cogent post-trial brief after sitting first chair in a five day trial. You have to have the law down cold in order to crush Federal Civil Procedure as hours 18.5-21.5 of the exam.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Hello lawyers! Long time listener, first time caller. General trial law question here.
I'm reading through the trial transcripts for the Steven Avery trial (basis for the infamous "Making a Murderer" documentary on Netflix) and have a curiosity question.
So, I'm currently reading the defense team's cross-examination of a witness that the State called. My question is how much, if any, access does the defense team have to the witness beforehand? I mean, I assume they have some sort of access to at least the key information that the witness will be providing, in order to prepare their line of questioning. Is that part of what I have understood to be the "discovery" portion?
TIA
I'm reading through the trial transcripts for the Steven Avery trial (basis for the infamous "Making a Murderer" documentary on Netflix) and have a curiosity question.
So, I'm currently reading the defense team's cross-examination of a witness that the State called. My question is how much, if any, access does the defense team have to the witness beforehand? I mean, I assume they have some sort of access to at least the key information that the witness will be providing, in order to prepare their line of questioning. Is that part of what I have understood to be the "discovery" portion?
TIA
Zow
Footballguy
Generally, the defense attorney has the opportunity to interview the witness ahead of time. In my jurisdiction I'm afforded the opportunity to have one meaningful defense interview of a state's witness. If that witness refuses to answer my questions (only had this happen once) I can request a formal deposition or can possibly get the judge to preclude the witness. This is always the case in my jurisdiction with police officers as the prosecutors tend to get a little cranky if you try to interview/speak to an officer about a case without them being present (they don't represent the cops so IMO their anger is not warranted, but it's a police I comply with just to keep things above board). Regarding lay witnesses (say, Johnny across the street who witnessed something) you can really talk to them all you want or have an investigator meet with them. There's actually an ethics opinion in my jurisdiction suggesting that it's pretty much per se ineffective representation to not interview a witness before trial. The only exception, at least in my jurisdiction, is that an alleged victim can refuse to be interviewed.
Obviously the goal here is to prevent surprises at trial and comply with the defendant's due process rights. During those interviews the defense attorney can and usually will discuss any written evidence or reports potentially pertinent to the witness's testimony. Theoretically, if a defense interview is done correctly, a defense attorney should never have to ask a single question during the trial to which he doesn't know the answer.
Zow
Footballguy
Obviously passing the bar is ridiculously important, but IIRC there's like 8-10 weeks between graduation and the bar to study. Additionally, while the bar is no cake walk depending on the state, it's not that hard. I'd think going balls to the wall for 8-10 weeks risks a burn out and sounds miserable. Plus, after the bar is over, you're going to be starting a life where you're working like 50 hrs./week or more.
Using myself as an example, I went to a lower tiered school where I graduated middle of the class, have a history of being considered not so smart on this board, took a "harder" bar (Arizona) and passed well above the cut line while just spending around 40 hrs./week at most and still playing amateur baseball, dating, working out, drinking with buddies, going out, ditching the occasional Friday study to do a three day NY or AC weekend, etc. that summer. I actually enjoyed that bar prep time immensely and oddly enough look back quite fondly on that 8-10 weeks.
Thanks for all of the insight guys, it's very much appreciated.
Oh, I forgot to mention. I'll be taking the NY bar, which has just adopted the UBE so i'll be technically be in easy position to practice in multiple jurisdictions without a whole bunch of hoops, but no-one knows how difficult it will be since the graders as well as the takers will be Guinea pigs... The Patent bar I've been told has been made both easier and harder, easier because the mpep is searchable, harder because of it still needing you to know pre-AIA stuff as well as the post-AIA stuff.
The firm that I accepted the offer from does 100% patent prosecution and soft IP registrations and absolutely NO litigation in house. I think that's ideal since my public speaking skills are relatively poor, but I come from a super-heavy tech background (physics, mathematics, electrical engineering, and years working in fields that applied them).
Oh, I forgot to mention. I'll be taking the NY bar, which has just adopted the UBE so i'll be technically be in easy position to practice in multiple jurisdictions without a whole bunch of hoops, but no-one knows how difficult it will be since the graders as well as the takers will be Guinea pigs... The Patent bar I've been told has been made both easier and harder, easier because the mpep is searchable, harder because of it still needing you to know pre-AIA stuff as well as the post-AIA stuff.
The firm that I accepted the offer from does 100% patent prosecution and soft IP registrations and absolutely NO litigation in house. I think that's ideal since my public speaking skills are relatively poor, but I come from a super-heavy tech background (physics, mathematics, electrical engineering, and years working in fields that applied them).
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Thanks, Zow. I had another question the other day, but have forgotten what it was. Will try to think of it again.
Also, what does "get the judge to preclude the witness" mean?
Also, what does "get the judge to preclude the witness" mean?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It means he treated bar prep like summer camp, so he doesn't use the word "exclude" where he's supposed to.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
no further questions, counsel
Henry Ford
Footballguy
In all fairness, it's not an incorrect usage, just an unfinished sentence. I'm just trying to be funny.
Zow
Footballguy
Ha, actually in my jurisdiction it would be probably entitled a "motion to preclude anticipated evidence" with that "evidence" being a particular witness. So, I'm not exactly wrong. Also, the definition of "preclude" is "to exclude."
Henry Ford
Footballguy
No, it's "to prevent."Ha, actually in my jurisdiction it would be probably entitled a "motion to preclude anticipated evidence" with that "evidence" being a particular witness. So, I'm not exactly wrong. Also, the definition of "preclude" is "to exclude."
You exclude evidence or witnesses, you preclude someone from introducing something or testifying.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It should be a motion to preclude introduction of evidence or a motion to exclude evidence. But your legislature is as dumb as mine, so the name of motions being all messed up wouldn't surprise me.
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Poke_4_Life
Footballguy
Two lawyers fighting over words...
Zow
Footballguy
I see your point. My point is that I think it's very reasonably possible to pass the bar by putting in adequate effort while still maintaining a good life balance and that too much studying could be counterproductive due to the burnout potential.
Your suggestion seems akin to going full-Bale in a somewhat lengthier weight loss contest where, in my opinion, it's much more prudent and effective to cut out most but not all carbs and exercise regularly but not as some insane pace.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think it's reasonably possible, too. I think it's unacceptable, given the possible ramifications and the amount of time and money spent getting to this point, to let one's bar passage likelihood drop at all because one don't want to work as hard as possible for two months.
But I work in a jurisdiction where quality of life for a lawyer is pretty good, and the bar passage rate is below 70%.
Zow
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Fair point. I notice I didn't initially say that even though that's what I was thinking. I'll concede, Mr. Ford, Esq.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
My argument though is that your bar passage rate doesn't drop by putting in forty hours a week versus, say, 60 hours. Bar study is a marathon, not a sprint. Perhaps you can go that hard for that long but I don't think the majority can or need to.
Also, I think my jurisdiction probably fits your last sentence, too. Although I haven't looked at recent numbers.
