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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (1 Viewer)

Henry Ford said:
I think it's reasonably possible, too. I think it's unacceptable, given the possible ramifications and the amount of time and money spent getting to this point, to let one's bar passage likelihood drop at all because one don't want to work as hard as possible for two months.

But I work in a jurisdiction where quality of life for a lawyer is pretty good, and the bar passage rate is below 70%.
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In California in 2015 about 60% of first timers passed and less than 45% of all examinees passed. New historical lows for each. Part of a national trend. Blamed on less applicants for law schools and so schools have to accept lower rated students than before or go under.

 
NCCommish said:
In California in 2015 about 60% of first timers passed and less than 45% of all examinees passed. New historical lows for each. Part of a national trend. Blamed on less applicants for law schools and so schools have to accept lower rated students than before or go under.
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Bar passage rates are way down in a bunch of places.  One of the issues is a protectionist mindset - bars are intentionally making it harder to pass since the economic downturn.  Louisiana in particular.

 
NCCommish said:
In California in 2015 about 60% of first timers passed and less than 45% of all examinees passed. New historical lows for each. Part of a national trend. Blamed on less applicants for law schools and so schools have to accept lower rated students than before or go under.
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California is a bad example for bar passage rates because bar admittance does not require graduation from an ABA accredited law school. 

IIRC, generally Nevada, New York, Arizona (yes, the place where I saw an average applicant can pass easily by just putting in 40 hrs./week), and Louisiana, are the "hardest".  

 
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Zow said:
California is a bad example for bar passage rates because bar admittance does not require graduation from an ABA accredited law school. 
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But that's a tiny number. Nationally in 2013 only 60 people took the bar exam who went through law reader apprenticeships of the type required in California. You can't just walk in and take the exam. You have to be in a 4 year apprenticeship supervised by an attorney with at least 5 years experience in California. You take monthly exams and the lawyer has to file progress reports. So those numbers aren't really driven by law readers.

By the way the same type of program exists in Virginia, Vermont and Washington state.

 
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Posner to Judges: Semper Scribo Simpliciter Sodes

By Jonathan R. Tung, Esq. on May 23, 2016 5:51 AM

Three cheers for perennially popular federal Circuit Judge Richard Posner of the Seventh Circuit who took the time, once again, to stand again on his soap-box decrying legalese in court opinions. The judge lamented overly prolix sentences and wordplay in court opinions. We admit, the habit is hard to break.

Posner's most recent anti-jargon pontificating comes as no surprise: Posner has long been a maverick in the legal community calling for the abolishment of some of the profession's more prized institutions, the Bluebook.

Where the Concurrence Matters More

Every so often a court opinion's minority views garner more attention and review than the majority's views. In this particular case before the Seventh Circuit, the federal court upheld a lower district's conviction of a man who sold illicit chemicals that were used in prescription drugs. In this case, Posner agreed with the majority's analysis and conclusion, but couldn't help inserting additional commentary about how "opaque" the majority's language was.

"Abuse of Discretion"

A little personal commentary of my own: I've always had some issue with the different standards of appellate review -- de novo, plain error, abuse of discretion, etc. Apparently, Posner isn't a fan either. "If the appellate court is persuaded that the trial court erred in a way that makes the trial court's decision unacceptable, it reverses," he said. What has discretion to do with it?"

Moreover, the term 'abuse' is too strong a word to characterize a disagreement between presumably competent judges, Posner argues. On this point, we're inclined to agree. After all, 'abuse' has been used to describe decisions of lower courts that simply looked to be a good-faith mistake. We at FindLaw can easily think of many other cases where 'abuse' could be more aptly applied.

Interview With the National Law Journal

Posner recently sat down with the National Law Journal to discuss judicial writing. In general, he vented about his distaste for terms and words like "narrow tailoring," "instant case" and "arguendo."

"They imbibe all this stuff at law school because the professors, they're immersed in the same culture and I don't really think it's a healthy culture," Posner said. He called for persons to express themselves clearly with day-to-day vocabulary.

Down With Keystrokes!

We'd love nothing more. Being presented with the task of reading half a dozen circuit cases a day, it would be the greatest gift of all for judges and their clerks to halt the use of words and terms like sub judice" and "de minimus non curat lex." Enough, already!

Here's to simplicity.

- See more at: http://blogs.findlaw.com/seventh_circuit/2016/05/posner-to-judges-semper-scriber-simplicis-sodes.html?DCMP=CCX-FBLP#sthash.VrzV5IOr.dpuf

 
NCCommish said:
In California in 2015 about 60% of first timers passed and less than 45% of all examinees passed. New historical lows for each. Part of a national trend. Blamed on less applicants for law schools and so schools have to accept lower rated students than before or go under.
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The latest round of CA bar passage rates were even worse. 

That said, I passed by putting in 35-40 hour weeks and doing everything BarBri told me to do. Anecdotally, I've never met anyone who actually did all the bar exam prep class work and failed. You don't want to stress out too much, IMO. 

 
Zow said:
California is a bad example for bar passage rates because bar admittance does not require graduation from an ABA accredited law school. 

IIRC, generally Nevada, New York, Arizona (yes, the place where I saw an average applicant can pass easily by just putting in 40 hrs./week), and Louisiana, are the "hardest".  
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:lmao:  first time bar exam takers from ABA schools most recently passed the CA bar at a 45-48% clip. It's over 60% in Arizona. 

 
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Unless you're going to some uncommon jurisdiction for your law school, you'll know the bar passage rates from your school for your jurisdiction.  Grads from my school were around 92% in Virginia.  I was in the top 5% of my class.  I just wasn't that worried because I knew what the 8% who might have trouble were like. It's a decent amount of material, but it's not that much material.  I was pulling high numbers on the MBE practice tests from the beginning, so I knew I only really needed to learn the specific weird Virginia stuff.  

I'm not saying you should be cocky and half-### it.  I am saying that I see no evidence that people putting in 60 hour weeks are going to be better than those putting in 40 hour weeks.  Like anything else, studying becomes less efficient.  If you do fail the bar your first time and you put in 40 hours a week for 11 weeks, you should focus on working smarter, not harder, for your next time.  

 
FattyVM said:
Thanks for all of the insight guys, it's very much appreciated.

Oh, I forgot to mention. I'll be taking the NY bar, which has just adopted the UBE so i'll be technically be in easy position to practice in multiple jurisdictions without a whole bunch of hoops, but no-one knows how difficult it will be since the graders as well as the takers will be Guinea pigs... The Patent bar I've been told has been made both easier and harder, easier because the mpep is searchable, harder because of it still needing you to know pre-AIA stuff as well as the post-AIA stuff.

The firm that I accepted the offer from does 100% patent prosecution and soft IP registrations and absolutely NO litigation in house. I think that's ideal since my public speaking skills are relatively poor, but I come from a super-heavy tech background (physics, mathematics, electrical engineering, and years working in fields that applied them).
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Don't shortchange yourself. You may make a better litigator than you realize. That said, patent prosecution is steady and far less stressful. That's the smart way to make a living -- perhaps less "glory," if there is such a thing in these circles, but you get a paycheck just the same for a much better lifestyle. 

I do a mix, mostly patent lit, but I sometimes envy my partners with full time prosecution practices. They're no dummies. 

 
Zow said:
Must have changed. Wasn't this way eight years ago that I can recall. Apologies if I have outdated info. 
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No, it hasn't changed. The differences between the passage rates for first time ABA school exam takers have been narrower at times in the past, but Arizona's passage rates were higher than CA in 2008-2010 as well (those were just the years I quickly spot checked). 

 
thecatch said:
No, it hasn't changed. The differences between the passage rates for first time ABA school exam takers have been narrower at times in the past, but Arizona's passage rates were higher than CA in 2008-2010 as well (those were just the years I quickly spot checked). 
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I took it in '08.  I know the AZ pass rate was so high in '08 that the state bar issued some some sort of public statement essentially saying, "yes, we know the pass rate was really high this year, we just couldn't justify failing people because the overall scores were abnormally high this year."  I thought it  was different the years prior, like '06-'07.  But, if yesterday was any indication, I'm probably wrong here. 

 
Zow said:
I took it in '08.  I know the AZ pass rate was so high in '08 that the state bar issued some some sort of public statement essentially saying, "yes, we know the pass rate was really high this year, we just couldn't justify failing people because the overall scores were abnormally high this year."  I thought it  was different the years prior, like '06-'07.  But, if yesterday was any indication, I'm probably wrong here. 
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You're probably not surprised at this point to hear AZ pass rates were much better in 2007 as well. 

 
Back when I took the bar I seem to recall that N.Y. and Louisiana were "Field Code" States, meaning they had some procedural roots which crossed into French jurisprudence, not many, but some, enough to make them a somewhat different animal.  Also California and Iowa had practicum portions to their bar exams, one a full day and one a half day. Outside of that there was fair uniformity across jurisdictions.  Everybody took the multistate portion, and pretty much everybody had an essay portion generally involving 8 essays out of a possible 12 to 14 subject matters, with subject matters being loosely defined and often having some mixed component.  Some jurisdictions had 6 essays, and some up to 10, but 8 was the most usual.   

I passed, and actually did so quite readily.  I studied 7 days a week for 6 weeks, 8 hours a day.  I totally eschewed intoxication during that time frame.  I did date and partake in leisure activities once my 8 hours was in.

My score was pretty good.  My multistate score was strong, strong enough that I could waive into other jurisdictions, most jurisdictions then other than California, Iowa, Louisiana, N.Y. and for some reason N.C., having a threshold score for waiving in.  This threshold score was often 10 to 20% higher than needed for a minimal passing score if you sat for the bar in that state.  I did in fact waive in to Colorado where I now practice.  The process was made especially easy in that after I submitted the waiver application the judge for whom I was clerking heard of my interest.  Instead of having to come out to Colorado to get sworn in he arranged with an old law school classmate who happened to be on the Supreme Court of Colorado to swear me in over the phone while I was in the chambers of my Judge. 

 
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Oh, follow up to my slip and fall matter.  Plaintiff's attorney is one of those advertise heavily on T.V. lawyers.  I did not know this as I apparently do not watch the sort of programming on which he advertises. 

Turns out the unusual geometry to which he and his expert were referring is that the bottom-most step on the staircase, a step which by the way is an entire flight of stairs away from the slip and fall spot, and one which the victim never had to navigate that fateful day, is a full 1/8th of an inch different in height from the uniform height of the rest of the treadles.

After a half day of arbitration the plaintiff reduced his demand from 2.6 million down to 2.5 million.  Defense counsel came up from $10,000.00 to $12,000.00. As a nonparty with a subrogation interest I got some correspondence done and I enjoyed the nice buffet breakfast supplied by the arbitration office.

 
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Thought of my other one that I had forgotten.

When they "make a move to strike" a question, comment. etc., why does it remain on the record (transcript)?? What's the point of moving to strike if it stays on the record? Or is the transcript not "the record?"  Or is it just akin to strenuously objecting?

I guess same question applies to objecting in general. The material objected to remains, and the jury can't unhear it. Just part of the gamesmanship? 

T.I.A. again, counsels. 

 
When you object to a question, you object before the witness answers.  So the material you're trying to keep out hopefully never made it to the jury. 

A question subject to a sustained motion to strike should not remain on a finished (as opposed to a rough transcript).  More often, however, a motion to strike is made in response to a written pleading. 

 
just came across an example in my reading today: 

20 Q. Have they conducted validation studies about
21 this?
22 A. I assume so, I'm not 100 percent familiar with
23 that.
24 ATTORNEY BUTING: Objection, I move to
25 strike the answer.
158
1 THE COURT: Court will order the answer
2 stricken.


this example came from this document, which is labeled at the top as TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

 
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Boss is taking a long weekend starting this morning and just sent me an email asking me to have a look at a Petition we need to file on Tuesday for a client we're acting as local counsel for.  "Out of state counsel has drafted it, probably just needs a little tweaking before we can file.  Check it out."

It's a 50-page products liability action drafted by someone who's never read the Louisiana Products Liability Act, and needs to be completely rewritten from paragraph 1.  Bye-bye weekend.

 
Dear client:

If you move, and change your phone number, you have to tell me about it.  I cannot contact you without those things, and there is an urgent deadline on your case.  I've now spent two months trying to find you, and un-####ing-believably now, 72 hours before your deadline, I've found your facebook page.

If your name is, for instance, "William Jones" having a facebook page titled simply "Jimbo" makes it very difficult to find you.

Especially if your twitter, instagram, etc. are all "Jimbo".

However, thankfully your mom is a facebook friend and I recognized your face in your profile pic in her "friends" section.

More importantly, STOP POSTING PICTURES OF YOU SMOKING WEED WITH A ####ING GUN IN YOUR HAND TO FACEBOOK, TWITTER, AND INSTAGRAM, YOU IDIOT. And please respond to my facebook message.

Thanks,

Guy who wishes he could win the Powerball and retire.

 
Henry Ford said:
Dear client:

If you move, and change your phone number, you have to tell me about it.  I cannot contact you without those things, and there is an urgent deadline on your case.  I've now spent two months trying to find you, and un-####ing-believably now, 72 hours before your deadline, I've found your facebook page.

If your name is, for instance, "William Jones" having a facebook page titled simply "Jimbo" makes it very difficult to find you.

Especially if your twitter, instagram, etc. are all "Jimbo".

However, thankfully your mom is a facebook friend and I recognized your face in your profile pic in her "friends" section.

More importantly, STOP POSTING PICTURES OF YOU SMOKING WEED WITH A ####ING GUN IN YOUR HAND TO FACEBOOK, TWITTER, AND INSTAGRAM, YOU IDIOT. And please respond to my facebook message.

Thanks,

Guy who wishes he could win the Powerball and retire.
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I hope you do, right after me.

 
Henry Ford said:
Boss is taking a long weekend starting this morning and just sent me an email asking me to have a look at a Petition we need to file on Tuesday for a client we're acting as local counsel for.  "Out of state counsel has drafted it, probably just needs a little tweaking before we can file.  Check it out."

It's a 50-page products liability action drafted by someone who's never read the Louisiana Products Liability Act, and needs to be completely rewritten from paragraph 1.  Bye-bye weekend.
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Sorry about that.  I've had business come up on a Friday & no recourse except to do it over the weekend.   Sucks but work should take precedence over other matters if it's for the long term good of your family. IMO

 
irishidiot said:
Sorry about that.  I've had business come up on a Friday & no recourse except to do it over the weekend.   Sucks but work should take precedence over other matters if it's for the long term good of your family. IMO
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Tell me more about what it's like to work weekends.  I've only spent a few decades as a litigator.

 
That moment when....

You advise a client to file a petition based on the text from the Trademark Manual of Examining Procedure issued by the government (industry bible).

You then call the Trademark Office and ask a question regarding a time line related to your petition.

Upon hearing the facts-

Person at Trademark Office says, "Oh your petition is likely going to be denied"  

Me- "Oh but the Manual says that my request should be accepted because......"

Person at Trademark Office- "Hmm, you're right, it is confusing as it is written"

Me - "Ok, so my petition will be granted?"

Her- "No, but thank you for bringing the incorrectly written portion of the manual to our attention.  It will be fixed in the next version."

:wall:

 
Henry Ford said:
Tell me more about what it's like to work weekends.  I've only spent a few decades as a litigator.
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Preparation & work ethic is how you get ahead of the lawyer you are against.   Caveat:  Also helps immensely to have the law on your side in your argument.

 
irishidiot said:
Being straight up.   Been to the state supreme court 5 times.  Never lost & have established case law.  Through my attorney.   I am not one. 
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Gotcha.

Yeah, I work weekends.  Have for about thirty years.  I can't remember the last time I didn't do any work for two straight days, including my recent vacation to the Caribbean on a cruise ship.

I don't think you'll find many people in here other than Zow who don't already work weekends regularly.  

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Wait, we're a state?
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Still the best reasoning in the history of legislation:

When Louisiana became part of the U.S., the legislature convened to decide whether to go common law or stay civil law.  At that point, it had been Spanish, French, and American within a span of a few weeks only three years earlier. Livingston gave a speech that amounted to "are we going to change our entire legal system every time a new country takes us over??"  Boom.  Still civil law to this day.

 
Henry Ford said:
Gotcha.

Yeah, I work weekends.  Have for about thirty years.  I can't remember the last time I didn't do any work for two straight days, including my recent vacation to the Caribbean on a cruise ship.

I don't think you'll find many people in here other than Zow who don't already work weekends regularly.  
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Had a good friend who handled personal injury & the like.  He had a lot of time off.   Most of his were settled out of court.   Send letter:   Six Phone calls:  settled.  He was good in court though.  I really respect the profession.   Good attorneys are 1 in 2.    Really good attorneys are 1 in 8.   Great attorneys are 1 in 25.   My experience anyway because I've hired enough.

 
irishidiot said:
Had a good friend who handled personal injury & the like.  He had a lot of time off.   Most of his were settled out of court.   Send letter:   Six Phone calls:  settled.  He was good in court though.  I really respect the profession.   Good attorneys are 1 in 2.    Really good attorneys are 1 in 8.   Great attorneys are 1 in 25.   My experience anyway because I've hired enough.
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That sounds much less exhausting than my practice.  I hope he's rich and retired.

 
Did a few tile searches in Louisiana in your courthouses.   Your records suck.  Lots of metes & bounds & instead of counties they are parishes.   Whole different record search in that state. 

 
Henry Ford said:
That sounds much less exhausting than my practice.  I hope he's rich and retired.
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Rich & dead.   Brain tumor at the age of 56.   He lasted one year from initial prognosis.   No need for condolences at all.  I have since helped his family out with some paperwork on minerals acres he bought from me & helped the family with some life estate deeds.  No fees involved at all.

Life is fleeting & don't think otherwise.

 
Some years back, I was contracted to develop an application to automate production of nationwide commercial real estate documents (assignments of mortgages, deeds of trust, leases & rents and UCCs) for a law firm. Stuff like document titling, language, font, margins, filing fee computation, etc.

I was given a list of states with their respective guidelines and requirements noting any specific county deviations (prepared by a friend of mine I'd known since high school). For Louisiana, it simply said, "**** these *************".

 
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