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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
nightmare
Footballguy
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe if the ballpark pays the ASCAP fees they can play any music they want.
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apalmer
Footballguy
Uh, no. His email went to his secretary's inbox. Case management really wasn't an issue since all he did was real estate, estate work and zoning/subdivision law for local municipalities. His knees pretty much kept him out of court for the last 10 years or so, meaning any court cases got handed off to me. His research was still via books, with me (usually) doing any online updating.
The funny thing is that our two firms merged back in 2001, and one of the reasons was that his then partners were looking for someone whose expertise overlapped with his so that "when he retires in a year or two, we'll have you to take over his work".
Zow
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Crazy judgment collection story:
Won a judgment in federal court against a vexatious lawyer representing himself pro se: $1 million in damages and $500,000 in attorneys fees. He was disbarred during the litigation, by the way. Had him declared a vexatious litigant by the court after a bunch of shenanigans: he actually sued me personally in the state court where we were litigating (a state far from where I live). Having someone declared a vexatious litigant and imposing filing restrictions, etc., on them is rare in federal court. A few months after the judgment he dies (details are too crazy to go into) and now I am dealing with his estate to collect. Of course, the estate conveniently left my client and the judgment out of the list of creditors. Sometimes it isnt enough just to win.
Won a judgment in federal court against a vexatious lawyer representing himself pro se: $1 million in damages and $500,000 in attorneys fees. He was disbarred during the litigation, by the way. Had him declared a vexatious litigant by the court after a bunch of shenanigans: he actually sued me personally in the state court where we were litigating (a state far from where I live). Having someone declared a vexatious litigant and imposing filing restrictions, etc., on them is rare in federal court. A few months after the judgment he dies (details are too crazy to go into) and now I am dealing with his estate to collect. Of course, the estate conveniently left my client and the judgment out of the list of creditors. Sometimes it isnt enough just to win.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Pretty much.
Ive represented bars against ASCAP, BMI, the music publishers, etc. They dont fool around. They will send undercover folks in to record the songs being played in a bar on an unlicensed karaoke night, for example, and then if they cant arrive at a settlement for damages and past licensing fees they will sue in federal court and seek dozens of thousands of dollars per song. Copyright infringement is a strict liability tort, so it gets pretty ugly when there are statutory damages and attorney's fees at issue.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
In February of last year I posted that my employers offered to make me a partner and eventually give me control of the firm. As of today those negotiations have irrevocably broken down.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Good luck Henry. It’s actually a pretty common story in my market with smaller firms these days. Maybe due to poor planning, laziness, or just plain greed, there are a dozen or more examples of highly regarded smaller firms going out of business or merging with big firms, all due to unwillingness of the old guard to transition their clients to younger partners. In many cases the clients haven’t even spoken to these old guys for years and are more than happy to jump ship with the guy whose been doing the work. Best of luck in your next venture.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Thanks. The firm kept telling me the issue was a tax problem related to the Republican tax bill. I finally called an old friend who’s a tax lawyer who basically said “No, time to leave. Also, I’ll bankroll you.”
Otis
Footballguy
Otis
Footballguy
Did my first opening this week. Went well I think. Other side was clearly stung and highly defensive about some surprises I dropped. So sorry!
A wild ride this year. Despite all that’s happening for me professionally, I still feel like I’m a kid and someone just handed me the car keys.
A wild ride this year. Despite all that’s happening for me professionally, I still feel like I’m a kid and someone just handed me the car keys.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Your first opening? Wow. Aren't you, like, a big wig partner? You lawyers with staff and resources and lots of people helping out sure do have weird lives.
Otis
Footballguy
Yeah. But I’m a relatively young partner still (early 40s), and in my field trials are all high stakes, cases aren’t tried often, and there’s always at least one or several older partners on the team who would open and close. Big firm thing. I finally got the nod despite being younger. I’d done a good deal of trial work before this in terms of taking witnesses, and have a good reputation as one of our future first chairs, but just never an opening. Still waiting on my first closing (this was a bench trial, no closings). Actually have another one coming up in the fall for which I’m lead and it would be an EDNY jury trial, I’d open and close in that one.Henry Ford said:
I can imagine this seeming weird for guys like woz and others in here who are younger and who open and close all the time.
Zow
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
It's different worlds, man. I've probably given over 500 openings and closings now for a variety of contested hearings. The concept of working so many years without doing one, or that doing one is some high-level prestige thing, while I understand it, is just flat out foreign to me.
Glad it went well for you. In my experience it's pretty hard to surprise the opposing counsel in one's opening (unless you've reserved with some sort of sandbag defense) so you musta done something right.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Zow
Footballguy
I believe a PA license is needed. Somebody familiar with the felony court process and standard probation there. Admittedly, client isn't giving me much to go on.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Otis
Footballguy
After this recent trial, I’m finally hitting the first patch in years where my billables have died down, and so have my originations. I don’t feel too bad about having some down time, because I’ve been one of the time hours billers in the firm for years, but I’m already starting to think ahead to the time when I really have nothing to do. This is a sick profession; I either walk around with anxiety about how much I have to do, or anxiety that I don’t have enough to do.
Oh well, I’ll take some fridays and relax this summer, start getting myself ready for the new management role im taking in January, and in the meantime, a good time to get out there and pound the pavement to look for work.
Oh well, I’ll take some fridays and relax this summer, start getting myself ready for the new management role im taking in January, and in the meantime, a good time to get out there and pound the pavement to look for work.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Ditto.
But a recent experience has made me realize that **** all, none of it is that important and I should play more golf.
Zow
Footballguy
Currently watching a member of the federal postal court testify in his own fraud trial. The state and the court are letting him essentially teach his theory to the jury. It's fascinating. Best way I can describe it is he's akin the to main character in A Beautiful Mind where he sees mathematical formulas in everything and it has devolved into madness.
This isn't the guy, but here's a sample of what's being presented in the court hearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkLNShrp90A
This isn't the guy, but here's a sample of what's being presented in the court hearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkLNShrp90A
May I suggest The Plant Paradox diet in your downtime?
https://gundrymd.com/plant-paradox-shopping-list/
Zow
Footballguy
This is very well put and also sums up the last several years of private practice. It's gotten worse now with kids of my own, the increased workload, and the downturn in my physical health. I never feel like there's enough time in the day. I generally work from 7 am - 6 pm on a non-trial week. My kids get up around 6:30 AM and go to bed around 7:00 PM. So, I'm lucky to get that 30 minutes in the morning. Then, at night, assuming I don't need to remain at the office, it's a choice between going to the gym or actually seeing my kids. Or, some nights, I'm just so fried I need to go home and stare at the wall for 20 minutes just to decompress. I feel guilty every moment I'm not working, exercising, or spending time with my family. If I leave work at 5:00 PM I feel like I did as a 12 year old catholic school boy picturing the hot chick in class naked knowing god is judging me. I can justify golf or a softball tournament on the weekend as my "get away" time, but if I go grab a beer with the guys afterwards I immediately get that shame that I should be making money. Hell, I've stopped twice now while writing this to notes some files from earlier today and respond to some emails.
What also doesn't help is that I've become a bit burned out lately. Due to some high-profile success recently in rape and murder trials, I'm now known as the "rape and murder guy." While I guess in a sense that's flattering, it's also quite disheartening that all that painstaking time, energy, and effort has resulted in me being the hero of those accused of the most heinous crimes. And, because I do this sort of work, it's completely desensitized me to these issues to the point where I am probably need some counseling and I've become socially inappropriate on occasion due to poor humor. In other words, while I'm not exactly seeking societal approval I've found myself to be a social pariah of sorts.
Additionally, it hasn't helped that 2/3 trials where my clients faced mandatory life in prison if convicted and all walked out of the courtroom free persons with full acquittals still didn't pay the entirety of their very reasonable fees after promising they would because they owed me their lives. And that's not even about the money -- hell, I'd be happy with just pittance per month if that's what they could afford -- it's just a disheartening lack of appreciation. This culminated recently when I watched "The Staircase," noted how similar that case was to my recent case, and laughed until I cried at the disparity of what I made versus what that particular defense lawyer charged (his fee was alluded to in one of the episodes). Compound all this with a sizable family law caseload and I don't have the same fervor for the job I did as an energetic young lawyer in my early to mid 20s. Oh, and I turned down running for a judge position out of loyalty to my firm and respect for a Commissioner who was also going to run -- only to have ask me to wait on my fee sharing check for this quarter and learn that the Commissioner has dropped out of the race leaving candidates I'm likely more qualified than.
But, the above all said, I'm not exactly dreading getting up for work tomorrow. I still like trials and I love winning trials. I still make more money than most and I can provide for my family. I've been so productive for my firm that I can basically do whatever I want with little to no push back. Definitely just wish there were times where I could turn it off, not feel guilty being lazy/unproductive, and not have to be so stressed out to earn the amount of money that I am.
Rirruto
Footballguy
I've absolutely 100% been there. I was on the other side before I got out of the game, but I've felt this so much. When you deal with the situations that you're having to deal with, it can absolutely be difficult to compartmentalize. I was at least in an office and unit that was big enough that I had people I could talk to and trade gallows humor with. I hope you've got an outlet for it.
I don't really have any advice for you, but I just wanted to point out that this is one of the truest things I've read in my two decades here.
mr. furley
Footballguy
guy got arrested in Milwaukee for killing 3 people and wounding one other
he's being charged with 6 counts of murder and 2 counts of attempted murder
how is this possible and why?
he's being charged with 6 counts of murder and 2 counts of attempted murder
how is this possible and why?
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Different charges based on different theories, such as felony murder or aggravated murder.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Whelp. That was one heck of a week.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Crazy week for me as well. Gave closing argument to the jury first thing yesterday, very confident as all the testimony had gone in perfectly during the week. Ten minutes in the jury asked a question and asked for a specific exhibit that was surprising and a huge concern for me, although my partner had a theory going in our favor. After about 4 hours they gave us a very mixed verdict, and only a Hail Mary post verdict motion my partner made saved us from disaster. Although our client is extremely pleased, I’m crushed. Worst part came when we caught a juror in the parking lot after and got his insight. He’s a smart guy, explained everything, and I don’t blame him at all for his decision based on the explanation he gave. It can be soul crushing to learn what the jury focused on in a case you’ve been litigating for 2 years when the evidence went in exactly as I wanted. Just totally misread what was important in the case, and honestly just got lucky in the end. The funniest part was when he told us we would have gotten zero, that not one juror would have given us anything but for one specific fact we put in on the second day. That particular fact was something I learned while prepping a minor witness at 9 pm in our hotel Tuesday night, and threw into my notes almost as an afterthought. Totally random fact as far as I was concerned that I put into his testimony at the last minute.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Most of my trial exp is in large chapter 11 cases, and we usually have pretty good judges in those cases, no juries. My parter is an old-school litigator and loves juries. I hate them.
Otis
Footballguy
You guys ever mock them? The greatest learning experience I’ve ever had in this profession. I’ve had multiple cases in which our side lost in the mock but we learned, adjusted, and won with the real jury. In IP cases usually there’s enough at stake that it’s worth the spend to a client.Christo said:
Upcoming jury trial will be my first to pick a jury, open and close. Luckily we’ll do a mock with a consultant about a month prior. Will be nice to have a test run and know what’s working and what’s not.
Otis
Footballguy
Amen to all that. Nothing to add other than I feel consumed by work these days. Many of my partners walk away from it nights and weekends. Some completely shut off, which I find maddening given how much I sacrifice and work. Then again, it’s a personal choice, and I realize I shouldn’t judge them for theirs. But I definitely have a sickness and am more or less consumed by work. Down time is mostly thinking about work. Drives with the family I definitely spend thinking about work. Client meetings I should be angling for, how I might handle things at a particular upcoming hearing. Weekend mornings after I set our breakfast for he kids, I head into my office and start researching or typing an article.
Just a crazy profession. I don’t hate it, other than the anxiety and that I find it all consuming.
Otis
Footballguy
What about even informal mocks with your paralegals and librarian or whatever? Even that can be incredibly informative.
Most of my clients have trouble coming up with the money to pay for trial and witness prep. I'm usually gving them discounts on that. And lots of time I agree to accept a flat fee.
Librarian? We are on different planets when it comes to the practice of law.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
In this case I had last week there was no way to do it. It was under $100k total at stake. We had to try it because of the offer they had made, and my partner and I tag teamed it because our schedules these past few months had us each working on it. If you add a zero to the value of the case, the entire trial would be different, particularly with experts.
I had a three day bench trial in June on a real estate case with much more at stake, and a major oral argument earlier this month. My summer has been horrible. There’s no way I’m ready to mock one of these a month before trial.
Zow
Footballguy
Different strokes. One thing I try to do if I'm not sure about a witness is wait around and be the last person after a deposition and talk to the court reporter. They've seen it all.
Zow
Footballguy
Nah there's a twinge of jealously from us that you shouldn't blink twice at what you're doing. I really do wish that I had the time and the money to go that extra mile. Crazy respect for you that you likely are faced with pressures such as a major corporate client and high dollar billables as well as an area of law that would sound the same to me as doing a trial in Spanish. Hell, for me I have the occasional wealthy family law client or an Avon Barksdale equivalent but otherwise I don't have similar pressures.
But it is just baffling to hear you talking to the rest of us about having the time and the money available to do a mock try to your ####### librarian. The closest I've ever done was, when I went all Matlock on my first degree murder case, explaining my theory of the case to an associate over beers who is a giant and brutally honest skeptic who gave me a ton of confidence with his, "yeah, I could see that." And, I didn't even get to bill for that because by that time I was no longer privately retained but appointed by the county and working at $60/hr. - that's right, I did a first degree murder trial at a billable rate to my firm of 60/hr. - and there's no way they'd have approved such a billing. But
again at the notion of have a ####### firm librarian with hours available to listen to your entire case. You want to know the comparable mock trial for us common folk? Dead-bang loser DUI trials. And, you know you'e legit when you win an in absentia DUI trial with about 30 minutes of prep where blood results are significantly over the limit and no other defenses available but you win because you were just simply a better trial lawyer than the prosecutor. I'm 100% confident that if I was given a reasonably succinct synopsis of the case in an area of the law where I knew the legal standards that I could efficiently present the case to a jury the next day. Like most things in life it's just practice and experience. If that takes a consultant and a mock trial and the client is willing to foot the bill for it, even better.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I'll always do a practice run of my oral arguments on big motions or opening statements with a lawyer and para or 3 from my office a few days in advance to get their feedback and really just to practice it live. We use a PR consultant who helps us with presentation of our cases, including our opening statement and presentation of key witnesses. She is very cheap and most clients will pay for it on a case under $500k or so. The thing I can't do in my practice is have a case entirely worked up 30 or more days in advance of trial. I'll know the case, but am almost never ready to mock all aspects of it that far in advance. Since 95+% of all civil cases settle, and given a high-volume workload, I have to play to the odds when preparing a case. By the time I'm certain a case is going to trial, which is rare, I'm usually taking depositions a month or so before or less just to put the case together.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
