The Presidential Pardon thread (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

I thought it would be interesting and fun to have a thread discussing Presidential pardons. I want to look at past pardons, particularly the controversial ones, to talk about whether they were good or bad, current pardons, potential pardons, posthumous pardons. I’d like to talk about people who have been discussed for pardon but not received it (for instance, Leonard Peltier) and why. And I want to include commutations in this thread as well. 

I’ll start on particular cases next week, but my question today is, are Presidential pardons a good idea in the first place? It seems like a throwback to the power of kings. Consider: we already have a jury system and independent judges to determine guilt or innocence. Then if that doesn’t achieve justice we have an appeals court. If justice is still not achieved, we have a circuit court, and beyond that we have a Supreme Court. My point is we have an awful lot of backstops to make sure there is justice. Given this, what is the purpose of an executive having the power to overrule all of them? 

Nearly every President has been accused of political corruption for some of their pardons: the most famous examples in modern history are Gerald Ford for Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton for Marc Rich, Donald Trump for Joe Arpeio. Putting aside the details of each case (we’ll get to them) couldn’t you argue that the pardon power will almost guarantee the potential of corruption? 

Interested to know your thoughts.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Trump pardons Conrad Black

Prior to Monday of last week, I had only once before, 18 years ago, received a telephone call from an incumbent president of the United States. I had not spoken to the current president since he took office. When my assistant said there was a call from the White House, I picked up, said “Hello” and started to ask if this was a prank (suspecting my friends in the British tabloid media), but the caller spoke politely over me: “Please hold for the president.” Two seconds later probably the best-known voice in the world said “Is that the great Lord Black?” I said “Mr. President, you do me great honour telephoning me.”

He could not have been more gracious and quickly got to his point: he was granting me a full pardon that would “Expunge the bad rap you got.” He had followed the case closely and offered to come to give evidence at my trial in Chicago in 2007 on one of the counts (I was acquitted of that one). He said that there would be some controversy, “But you can handle that better than anyone.” I asked “Do you authorize me to say that your motivation is that it was an unjust verdict?” He checked with the White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, who was in the room, if this would be a problem legally, and was told and affirmed to me that I could say that was his motive and that he was reversing an unjust verdict.

“We’ve known each other a long time,” the president told me, “but that wasn’t any part of the reason. Nor has any of the supportive things you’ve said and written about me.” I suggested that he knew ”better than anyone” the antics of some U.S. prosecutors. (I had had Robert Mueller as director of the FBI, which we caught installing illegal bugging devices in our home in New York and in many falsehoods; James Comey as deputy attorney-general, and Patrick Fitzgerald, now Comey’s counsel, as U.S. attorney in Chicago. They were all, as my distinguished caller on Monday has described Comey, “bad cops.”) We moved briefly on to generalities, greetings to wives, I thanked him for his call and again for the purpose of his call, and the conversation ended.

- By Conrad Black, convicted of fraud and obstruction of justice.

- This is the first pardon of a non-American since Marc Rich.

 

[apalmer]

Trump pardons Conrad Black

- By Conrad Black.

- This is the first pardon of a non-American since Marc Rich.

"This has nothing to do with all the supportive things you've said about me".  Probably also doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it was an obstruction of justice case.

 

[whoknew]

Unreal - 

The others are believed to include the case of a former Blackwater security contractor recently found guilty in the deadly 2007 shooting of dozens of unarmed Iraqis; the case of Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn, the Army Green Beret accused of killing an unarmed Afghan in 2010; and the case of a group of Marine Corps snipers charged with urinating on the corpses of dead Taliban fighters.

 

[Mister CIA]

Pardons for murderers.  I think this is a new low. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Pardons for murderers.  I think this is a new low. 

I think it’s an impeachable offense. Add it to the list.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Pardons for murderers.  I think this is a new low. 

Trump: Hold my Arnold Palmer.

 

[Mario Kart]

I think it’s an impeachable offense. Add it to the list.

This is a strongly worded statement. What is your level of concern?

 

[Mister CIA]

I think it’s an impeachable offense. Add it to the list.

I wish Pelosi would fire up an impeachment hearing on a Monday and have it gift-wrapped and delivered to the Senate on Tuesday.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

This is a strongly worded statement. What is your level of concern?

Not all uses of the pardon power are proper. Some subvert the rule of law or the public trust in a way that should not be allowed. I think the currently contemplated pardons are improper because nullifying convictions for war crimes subverts the rule of law. But legally, the pardon power seems pretty absolute. The Constitution gives the President the legal authority to make these kinds of pardons. Since there’s no legal remedy to check the President against making improper pardons, the appropriate remedy is the political tool of impeachment.

 

[timschochet]

Not all uses of the pardon power are proper. Some subvert the rule of law or the public trust in a way that should not be allowed. I think the currently contemplated pardons are improper because nullifying convictions for war crimes subverts the rule of law. But legally, the pardon power seems pretty absolute. The Constitution gives the President the legal authority to make these kinds of pardons. Since there’s no legal remedy to check the President against making improper pardons, the appropriate remedy is the political tool of impeachment.

I disagree. 

Unless you can prove corruption, what Trump is doing is a political action- he is pardoning these guys because, hey it’s our military and we’re tough and we protect our own. There is precedence for this, going all the way back to the Civil War. Most infamous modern example is Lt Calley I believe (My Lai massacre.) 

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

 

[[scooter]]

Pardons for murderers.  I think this is a new low. 

I think it’s an impeachable offense. Add it to the list.

Is it impeachable because you think murders shouldn't be pardoned? Or because you think war crime murders shouldn't be pardoned?

 

[Mister CIA]

I disagree. 

Unless you can prove corruption, what Trump is doing is a political action- he is pardoning these guys because, hey it’s our military and we’re tough and we protect our own. There is precedence for this, going all the way back to the Civil War. Most infamous modern example is Lt Calley I believe (My Lai massacre.) 

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

Wrong, wronger, wrongest.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Is it impeachable because you think murders shouldn't be pardoned? Or because you think war crime murders shouldn't be pardoned?

It’s the motivation. Pardons for murder (or for war crimes) would be okay if there was doubt about guilt (despite the conviction) or if individual circumstances made the sentence unfair, etc.

But if it’s just “people on my team don’t have to follow the law,” which appears to be the case here, the pardon is improper.

 

[Mister CIA]

Would it be unethical to start a gofundme for pardoned murderers, to buy a pad at Mar-a-Lago? or Trump Towers?

 

[SoBeDad]

Ted Lieu has spoken: Dear @TomiLahren

"Our military personnel are brave, patriotic & smart. I've tried multiple cases before military juries. They take into account a Member's service record and demand evidence beyond a reasonable doubt before convicting. I trust military members. Do you?"

What do former military on the GOP side have to say?

 

[Mister CIA]

I disagree. 

Unless you can prove corruption, what Trump is doing is a political action- he is pardoning these guys because, hey it’s our military and we’re tough and we protect our own. There is precedence for this, going all the way back to the Civil War. Most infamous modern example is Lt Calley I believe (My Lai massacre.) 

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

More sincerely, this is a big problem.  Trump is delivering a big FU to senior military officers. 

Impeach.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

"A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions."

 

[Henry Ford]

Ted Lieu has spoken: Dear @TomiLahren

"Our military personnel are brave, patriotic & smart. I've tried multiple cases before military juries. They take into account a Member's service record and demand evidence beyond a reasonable doubt before convicting. I trust military members. Do you?"

What do former military on the GOP side have to say?

Lindsey Graham was a JAG prosecutor. Can’t wait to see him throw all of that away when he responds to defend Trump. 

 

[[scooter]]

Unless you can prove corruption, what Trump is doing is a political action- he is pardoning these guys because, hey it’s our military and we’re tough and we protect our own. There is precedence for this, going all the way back to the Civil War. Most infamous modern example is Lt Calley I believe (My Lai massacre.) 

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

Calley was never pardoned. Many prominent politicians lobbied to have Calley's sentence commuted or pardoned, but Nixon refused to intervene except to allow Calley to await his appeal in house arrest (instead of appealing from prison). His conviction was eventually overturned by the courts, and the Army subsequently commuted his sentence to "time served".

 

[NCCommish]

As a veteran I really have little but contempt for these guys. They dishonored themselves, their units and everyone who wears the uniform has a little bit of that dishonor clinging to them. Their punishment was deserved. To undo that is wrong. Further this would send the absolute worst message not only to our troops but to our enemies. Anything goes is not the mess we want to find our servicemen and women in.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I disagree. 

Unless you can prove corruption, what Trump is doing is a political action- he is pardoning these guys because, hey it’s our military and we’re tough and we protect our own. There is precedence for this, going all the way back to the Civil War. Most infamous modern example is Lt Calley I believe (My Lai massacre.) 

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

Tim, violating morality and law for aggrandizement of political power is a form of corruption, don’t you know that?

 

[timschochet]

Tim, violating morality and law for aggrandizement of political power is a form of corruption, don’t you know that?

Sure. In theory. But how is he violating the law? 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Sure. In theory. But how is he violating the law? 

Go back and read MT’s OP again. Subverting the rule of law is the kind of misconduct and constitutional principle that impeachment was created for.

 

[Ilov80s]

I won’t weigh in on the legality of it but ethically this is so disgusting 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Sure. In theory. But how is he violating the law? 

“Misdemeanor” doesn’t mean “crime” in 18th century parlance.

 

[timschochet]

“Misdemeanor” doesn’t mean “crime” in 18th century parlance.

I understand it’s a question of interpretation. 

I guess my main objection to your argument is that the Constitution puts no limitations on the power to pardon. It doesn’t have to be done for noble or moral or just reasons; it can be purely political. Therefore my view of it is pretty broad; unless you can show corruption it seems to me that anything goes. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Therefore my view of it is pretty broad; unless you can show corruption it seems to me that anything goes. 

Didn’t your previous post acknowledge corruption?

 

[timschochet]

Didn’t your previous post acknowledge corruption?

Not in this instance. 

 

[Sabertooth]

SMH, crazy what this country has come to.  

 

[Joe Summer]

timschochet said:

But how is he violating the law?

Trump is using U.S. law to exempt Americans who committed and were properly convicted of capital crimes against citizens of other countries. That's a new level of immorality for our country.

The world trusts us to police our own military. When we fail to hold our military members accountable for their crimes, then we lose a little bit of that trust -- and we also lose a little bit of our credibility with our allies.

We are telling the world, "We allow our soldiers to murder civilians with impunity."

That message isn't going to go over well the next time we ask our allies to support one of our military actions.

 

[timschochet]

Trump is using U.S. law to exempt Americans who committed and were properly convicted of capital crimes against citizens of other countries. That's a new level of immorality for our country.

The world trusts us to police our own military. When we fail to hold our military members accountable for their crimes, then we lose a little bit of that trust -- and we also lose a little bit of our credibility with our allies.

We are telling the world, "We allow our soldiers to murder civilians with impunity."

That message isn't going to go over well the next time we ask our allies to support one of our military actions.

I agree with all of this 100%. If you’re looking for me to defend Trump’s actions look somewhere else. 

But he is allowed to pardon people. He doesn’t need to offer reasons. Unless there is corruption (meaning, in this instance, somebody paid Trump to pardon somebody) I just don’t see this as an impeachable offense. Trump has committed other numerous impeachable offenses, however. 

 

[HellToupee]

Golsteyn and the Marines , yes

Blackwater, no

Gallagher, strange case but why would fellow SEALS speak against him if it didn’t happen? 

Sending someone to  8 or 9 combat tours is insane 

 

[Ilov80s]

Golsteyn and the Marines , yes

Blackwater, no

Gallagher, strange case but why would fellow SEALS speak against him if it didn’t happen? 

Sending someone to  8 or 9 combat tours is insane 

I’m curious why yes for Golsteyn and the Marines? Wouldn’t we want to let the trials play out and let the military courts decide?

 

[Mile High]

Former Marine Commandant Gen. Charles Krulak who served in the Marine Corps for more than three decades before retiring in 1999 as the 31st Commandant. a two-time Purple Heart recipient and son of legendary Lt. Gen. Victor "Brute" Krulak,

For almost 15 years I have led a group that has grown to more than 170 retired admirals and generals who share a belief that fidelity to our nation's most cherished ideals is the foundation of our security. If President Trump follows through on reports that he will mark Memorial Day by pardoning individuals accused or convicted of war crimes, he will betray these ideals and undermine decades of precedent in American military justice that has contributed to making our country's fighting forces the envy of the world.

As General Martin Dempsey, retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently stated, "Absent evidence of innocence or injustice the wholesale pardon of US servicemembers accused of war crimes signals [to] our troops and allies that we don't take the Law of Armed Conflict seriously."

Disregard for the law undermines our national security by reducing combat effectiveness, increasing the risks to our troops, hindering cooperation with allies, alienating populations whose support the United States needs in the struggle against terrorism, and providing a propaganda tool for extremists who wish to do us harm.

More important than the message such pardons would send to others, however, is that which it would send to our own servicemembers and citizens. As the late Senator John McCain said in 2011 about torture and war crimes:

"This is a moral debate. It is about who we are. I don't mourn the loss of any terrorist's life. What I do mourn is what we lose when by official policy or official neglect we confuse or encourage those who fight this war for us to forget that best sense of ourselves. Through the violence, chaos and heartache of war, through deprivation and cruelty and loss, we are always Americans, and different, stronger and better than those who would destroy us."

If President Trump issues indiscriminate pardons of individuals accused – or convicted by their fellow servicemembers -- of war crimes, he relinquishes the United States' moral high ground and undermines the good order and discipline critical to winning on the battlefield. I urge the President against taking this step and hope that Members of Congress will oppose it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/krulak-statement-trump-warcrimes-2637733923.amp.html

 

[urbanhack]

SHOCKING!

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/24/politics/navy-seal-chief-eddie-gallagher-defense-team-trump/index.html

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Trump grants presidential pardons or sentence commutations to seven people

=============

President Trump on Monday granted full pardons to five people and commuted the prison sentences of another two, bringing to 19 the total number of people to whom he has granted executive clemency since taking office.

In general, a pardon is granted after a person has already completed their sentence, while a commutation is granted while a person is still in prison, according to the nonprofit Families Against Mandatory Minimums.

Trump on Monday commuted the sentences of Ted Suhl and Ronen Nahmani. Suhl is an Arkansas man who was convicted in 2016 of Medicaid fraud and bribery-related charges and sentenced to seven years in prison. According to the White House, his request for clemency was “strongly supported” by former U.S. attorney Bud Cummins and former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, the father of former White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee.

Nahmani, of Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison in 2015 for conspiracy to distribute synthetic marijuana. The White House said Monday that Nahmani’s wife has terminal cancer and that the couple has five young children.

“These extenuating circumstances underscore the urgency of his request for clemency,” the White House said, adding that the action was supported by lawmakers including Reps. Hakeem Jeffries (D-N.Y.) and Mark Meadows (R-S.C.).

The five people to whom Trump granted full pardons on Monday are Roy Wayne McKeever, John Richard Bubala, Rodney Takumi, Chalmer Lee Williams and Michael Tedesco. All five served time in prison for crimes committed in the 1980s and 1990s.

According to the White House, McKeever was arrested for transporting marijuana from Mexico to Oklahoma; Bubala had improperly transferred federal automotive equipment for maintenance use; Takumi had worked at an illegal gambling parlor; Williams was convicted of crimes related to the theft and sale of firearms from airport luggage; and Tedesco was convicted of drug trafficking and fraud. Tedesco was pardoned by former President Barack Obama in 2017, but the fraud conviction was not included due to a clerical error, the White House said.

Individuals can request executive clemency through the Justice Department’s Office of the Pardon Attorney, which reviews them and then sends recommended petitions to the White House.

A presidential pardon does away with the “civil disabilities” that accompany a criminal conviction — meaning that a person who has been pardoned is allowed to possess firearms, sit on a federal jury and regain the right to vote, if he or she lives in a state where convicted felons are barred from voting.

=============

 

[-OZ-]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/13/politics/clint-lorance-release-trump-mark-esper-war-crimes/index.html

I have some pretty strong feelings about this one. At one point there was talk of dismissing the charges entirely, which is just simply the wrong thing to do.  

I'd be curious to see where others opinions fall. Does anyone think dismissing the charges (and convictions) would be right?

Is anyone watching this on Starz?

 

[Joe Summer]

As I said before, if we fail to hold our military members accountable for their individual war crimes, then we lose trust and credibility with our allies.

Our military leaders understand this, which is why they have lobbied Trump to NOT pardon these guys.

 

[-OZ-]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/11/15/trump-issues-pardons-war-crimes-cases-despite-pentagon-opposition-move/

 

[[scooter]]

Trump reverses process of removing disgraced sailor from Navy Seals

Now he's handing out medals that the Navy itself thinks that a guy doesn't deserve.

 

[Henry Ford]

Trump reverses process of removing disgraced sailor from Navy Seals

Now he's handing out medals that the Navy itself thinks that a guy doesn't deserve.

Relevant Satire

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Trump will be commuting the sentence of Rod Blagojevich.

More - ABC

 

[squistion]

Trump will be commuting the sentence of Rod Blagojevich.

:(

When bribes are outlawed, only outlaws will take bribes...

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Trump pardoning Eddie DeBartolo.

- DeBartolo was caught giving $400K cash payment to LA Gov Edwin Edwards for casino licensing bribes.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Trump will be commuting the sentence of Rod Blagojevich.

More - ABC

That's really strange.  Trump's crusade against Hunter Biden made me think that he was serious about ending corruption in government, but it's hard to square that with a pardon for Blagojevich.  Now I don't know what to believe.

 

[Stealthycat]

but my question today is, are Presidential pardons a good idea in the first place?

I don't like pardons with rare, rare exceptions and I very much dislike them the last few days of office 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

That's really strange.  Trump's crusade against Hunter Biden made me think that he was serious about ending corruption in government, but it's hard to square that with a pardon for Blagojevich.  Now I don't know what to believe.

Yes, it’s a mystery.

 

[Don Quixote]

That's really strange.  Trump's crusade against Hunter Biden made me think that he was serious about ending corruption in government, but it's hard to square that with a pardon for Blagojevich.  Now I don't know what to believe.

Eh, maybe he feels bad for kicking him off The Apprentice for not knowing some Harry Potter trivia.  What's that compared to shaking down a children's hospital?

 

[whoknew]

I don't like pardons with rare, rare exceptions and I very much dislike them the last few days of office 

How do you like today's?