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The Question No One is Asking (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter David Dodds
- Start date
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
A common perception expressed many times is that good teams don't make mistakes and that bad teams don't make good moves but the reality is it happens more often than people realize.
At the time the Pats drafted Hernandez the perception was that Belichick did it again. I don't feel people now will do a 180 but maybe they will wait before passing judgement.
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A man named Sei Weng owned a beautiful mare which was praised far and wide. One day this beautiful horse disappeared. The people of his village offered sympathy to Sei Weng for his great misfortune. Sei Weng said simply, "That's the way it is."
A few days later the lost mare returned, followed by a beautiful wild stallion. The village congratulated Sei Weng for his good fortune. He said, "That's the way it is."
Some time later, Sei Weng's only son, while riding the stallion, fell off and broke his leg. The village people once again expressed their sympathy at Sei Weng's misfortune. Sei Weng again said, "That's the way it is."
Soon thereafter, war broke out and all the young men of the village except Sei Weng's lame son were drafted and were killed in battle. The village people were amazed as Sei Weng's good luck. His son was the only young man left alive in the village. But Sei Weng kept his same attitude: despite all the turmoil, gains and losses, he gave the same reply, "That's the way it is."
Jeremy
Footballguy
It's part arrogance, part desperation. It's very difficult for a great team to stay on top in today's NFL. You're drafting near the end of every round, every year. You're losing good players to the salary cap. You're losing good coaches and front office personell to other teams. On top of that, you're maybe not drafting as well as you should.
So you take shortcuts. Guys with big character red flags come at discounted prices. You have success with guys like Randy Moss. The media applauds your every "no risk" move like trading for Haynesworth and OchoCinco. Even if it doesn't work out, it really won't cost them anything, they say. "Classic Patriots. They're just smarter than everyone else. That lockerroom will keep him in line."
They played with fire once too often, and this time they got burned.
So you take shortcuts. Guys with big character red flags come at discounted prices. You have success with guys like Randy Moss. The media applauds your every "no risk" move like trading for Haynesworth and OchoCinco. Even if it doesn't work out, it really won't cost them anything, they say. "Classic Patriots. They're just smarter than everyone else. That lockerroom will keep him in line."
They played with fire once too often, and this time they got burned.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Who do you think should have more information about the behavior of Hernandez - the Pats organization, or FBG's poster Boston?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Agreed. Given the story about his altercation with Welker and what Matt Light said, it has to be a given that many in the Patriots locker room didn't like his attitude, and that is something an organization has to have a grip on. I am sure if there is a way, we can blame this on Josh McDaniels.
Ksquared
Footballguy
This is really the point Dodds was making and I agree. It was not about drafting him, that was a calculated risk that turned out "golden". But the contract extension is the issue. All of you complaining about the monday morning QB/ 20-20 hindsight crowd have to explain why in this $42 Million dollar extension NE did not put the normal (at least as I understand it) language to guard against paying "signing bonuses" or "guaranteed money" for acts like these. The Pats knew he still hung around a bad crowd. This is really at the core of the question Dodds is asking and I don't think it is an unfair criticism.Agreed. Given the story about his altercation with Welker and what Matt Light said, it has to be a given that many in the Patriots locker room didn't like his attitude, and that is something an organization has to have a grip on. I am sure if there is a way, we can blame this on Josh McDaniels.
Clifford
Footballguy
Because they knew his shady behavior would catch up with him and they'd never have to pay it?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I still think that the Pats at some point will argue (once this dies down some) that Hernandez broke the code of conduct provisions in the CBA BEFORE they released him and that therefore AH himself voided his contract. I certainly am neither an attorney nor a CBA expert, but I believe in the last version of the CBA they started transferring some rudimentary language from player contracts into the general CBA. Maybe that will gain traction, maybe it won't, but I suspect that the Pats are going to argue that.This is really the point Dodds was making and I agree. It was not about drafting him, that was a calculated risk that turned out "golden". But the contract extension is the issue. All of you complaining about the monday morning QB/ 20-20 hindsight crowd have to explain why in this $42 Million dollar extension NE did not put the normal (at least as I understand it) language to guard against paying "signing bonuses" or "guaranteed money" for acts like these. The Pats knew he still hung around a bad crowd. This is really at the core of the question Dodds is asking and I don't think it is an unfair criticism.Agreed. Given the story about his altercation with Welker and what Matt Light said, it has to be a given that many in the Patriots locker room didn't like his attitude, and that is something an organization has to have a grip on. I am sure if there is a way, we can blame this on Josh McDaniels.
So while the media is reporting that the Pats were stupid for cutting AH before he got suspended by the league, the Pats case will hinge on AH breaking the league's code of conduct policies BEFORE they released him.
As far as other unique examples, Sean Taylor died . . . but didn't break the conduct policies of the NFL. Vick DID break those rules . . . but I believe they were ratcheted up in the latest CBA but may not have been written in the same manner back when Vick was arrested.
The Pats will try to argue that if Hernandez didn't break the conduct clauses of the CBA, they would never have released him. Again, beats me if they have a case or not and how successful they will be.
hauser42
Footballguy
I am not amazed tha the Pats didnt know what was going on with Hernandez off the field.
The talk that he felt Loyd couldnt be trusted shows that he only kept a tight circle of friends he trusted. Friends and associates that would not allow what was going on to anyone outside the trusted group. These people were not going to tell the police or Patriots what was going on. I believe a lot of it was becaue of loyalty and some might of been fear what might happen to them. But word was not coming from this group if he was up to no good.
Not till the last 2 weeks has Hernandez been on the police plotter, so why would the Pats not lock up a key member of thier team. They need to keep the weapons they has since the lack of WRs on the roster was hurting them. This was not a gamble by the Pats giving him the contract anymore than the one they gave Gronk.
The talk that he felt Loyd couldnt be trusted shows that he only kept a tight circle of friends he trusted. Friends and associates that would not allow what was going on to anyone outside the trusted group. These people were not going to tell the police or Patriots what was going on. I believe a lot of it was becaue of loyalty and some might of been fear what might happen to them. But word was not coming from this group if he was up to no good.
Not till the last 2 weeks has Hernandez been on the police plotter, so why would the Pats not lock up a key member of thier team. They need to keep the weapons they has since the lack of WRs on the roster was hurting them. This was not a gamble by the Pats giving him the contract anymore than the one they gave Gronk.
12punch
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Phantom Knight
Footballguy
Ok, I'll bite. Your point has some small bit of merit, but you are taking it too far and end up comparing apples to oranges.
Right or wrong, the reason folks here say that they (the Patriot organization) should have seen something is because they are "there" and have access to AH that none of us do. If any of the folks here had the same access to the entirety of information that the Patriot organization has had, you would be spot on. As it is, that is clearly and obviously not the case.
So while your point does have some merit.... to see these continued ridiculous challenges for prognostication is either completely tongue-in-cheek... or a good bit over the top.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Serious question -> if Hernandez's contract had expired entering this off-season and, for no particular reason, the Patriots let him free agency, how many teams do you think would have aggressively pursued Hernandez?
hauser42
Footballguy
There would have been several teams after him with his talents. He has staid off the police plotter and their where no national rumors he was out of control.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Tons of teams would have pursued him and signing him would have proved a poor choice based on his current situation. Just as the Patriots extending him was a VERY poor choice and will hurt the organization.
Not sure I see what you are getting at. Regardless, the team that signed him would have made a poor descision. In this case, the Patriots made a poor descision.
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ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Patriots gambled and lost. Its comical that you are having problems with this. The bottom line is they gave a huge very "Non-Patriot Way" contract to the worst person they could have, kind of ironic really. They have let plenty of guys walk, yet they loosen the purse strings a bit for Hernandez and he was clearly littered with red flags. We don't even know HALF the stuff the Patriots organization must. Very poor judgment was made in this instance.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
This article is a separate issue -- as to why we can't blame others for the decisions Aaron Hernandez made. What we can do is criticize the decision the Patriots made in giving Hernandez guaranteed money and a contract extension, with the assumption that they were aware of his background and that he wasn't exactly highly regarded by his teammates. If they weren't aware of any of these signs (and I'm of the opinion the Patriots have the resources to thoroughly vet their players), it makes the Patriots look even worse.Kool-Aid Larry said:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't care how much a bad seed a player appears to be, I think it's pretty much impossible to predict that someone will actually commit murder. I don't know how many players have played in the NFL and how many have been charged with murder while still a player, but I'm guessing the percentage is really, really small. Granted, the likelihood might be higher than the average citizen given the violent nature of the game, but still I don't think teams enter contract negotiations wondering if the player is going to off someone.
Sure, NE likely had more knowledge on AH having been a troublemaker when he was younger, but maybe they actually did think he had matured and turned the corner and was being a better person and better teammate. AFTER THE FACT, Pats players are now suggesting he was a problem. But where were they prior to the murder one charges? Why didn't they speak out then?
The Patriots may also be able to, or at least try to, get some of their money back. Pats beat writer recently posted this on his blog for ESPN . . .
Q. With the release of Hernandez, can the Patriots recoup any of the signing bonus or recover any of the cap charge due to the reason he was released? How does that process work? Whatever happened with Jonathan Fanene's signing bonus? Did the Pats get relief from that as well? -- Jan, Auburn, N.H.
A. That’s another layer to this situation that has come into focus as the Patriots cut ties with one of the highest-paid players on the roster. The salary cap can be tricky in the NFL, and I spent time on the phone with a league contact Wednesday to dig deeper into the ramifications. Based on what we know, the Patriots’ decision to cut Hernandez yesterday prevents them from recouping any of the guaranteed money paid out to him already. They’re on the hook for a cap hit of more than $5 million for 2013 and $7.5 million in 2014.
What we don’t know is how much, if any, communication the team has had with the NFL since the investigation began. It is possible that conversations took place regarding the situation and my understanding is that there may be avenues for the team to take to get some of this money back. Salary cap matters are always complicated and often involve deliberate processes. That’s something we’ll be following up on in the coming weeks.
As a testament to the deliberate manner in which these processes take place, the Fanene situation remains ongoing, with the door still open to the team getting money back from his signing bonus.
HeirCoryell
Footballguy
I still think The Patriots should have had some knowledge and known better before giving him the big contract. As previously mentioned, you don't throw out that kind of money to a player with his questionable past without covering all the angles. If the Boston radio show caller is to be believed, "gang-banging" seemed like a pretty regular occurrence for AH.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/aaron-hernandez-first-degree-murder-gun-charges--bill-belichick-robert-kraft-should-have-known-better-062613
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/aaron-hernandez-first-degree-murder-gun-charges--bill-belichick-robert-kraft-should-have-known-better-062613
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this isnt like Joe Paterno keeping quiet about child rape at PSU. The Patriots didnt know he was murdering people and hide it then all of a sudden decide to cut him. He seemed to have turned his life around, and earned a big contract but he just simply fooled everyone. It happens in all walks of life.
cheatsheetwarroom
Footballguy
I agree. From the reports I've read he put on a good face leading all the way up to his big contract, at which point he reverted back to his old gangster ways.
