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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (3 Viewers)

Ooh, the comments I left in here to the Moderator got pruned. Okay. Noted. I thought he took too much personal joy in Bob's suspension and told him Hmm...

He also pruned the comment about Sideshow Bob I made.

Hmm...again

 
Ooh, the comments I left in here to the Moderator got pruned. Okay. Noted. I thought he took too much personal joy in Bob's suspension and told him Hmm...

He also pruned the comment about Sideshow Bob I made.

Hmm...again
In the post truth era, you said what they wanted you to say.  And they re-arrange the truth. and suppress the realities, until truth and reality represent what they want it to say.

 
Is it really different than any other day? This entire thread is built on 2400 pages of nonsense and lies.
Agreed, but this was bad for even this thread.  Someone couldn't handle an opposing view and called me bleepity bleep.  I reported it and someone else jumped in with a vulger personal insult at me and got rightfully banned for it.  Then folks accused me of trolling to try and get someone banned.   :lol: . You can't make this up.

I am guessing they are just realizing they got the wool pulled over their eyes with this Russian collusion nonsense and they refuse to acknoweledge the truth.

 
Is it really different than any other day? This entire thread is built on 2400 pages of nonsense and lies.
This is completely false and you know it.  So what does that say about the purpose of such a post?  I ask because of the several claims being made that people are here to get Trump posters banned.  Another assertion that is completely unsubstantiated.

 
Trump called McGahn at his home on June 17, 2017, according to phone records. He ordered McGahn to call the acting attorney general and tell him that Mueller had conflicts of interest and needed to be removed, saying something to the effect of, “You gotta do this. You gotta call Rod [Rosenstein],” McGahn told investigators.

 
Especially when what you seek to post is said for no any reason other than to speak the truth (Or at the least an opinion backed by fact, logic, and reason) in an effort to shine light on some of the most scary realities any of us have witnessed during our lives. Meanwhile those who use lies and trolling tactics merely to invite and obfuscate get the green light to do so.

Why bother when truths are treated like venom (uncomfortable as those truths may be), and one is forced to uphold and treat lies and propaganda as if they were sincere and true in both intent, and content?

(Hint: Ya no longer bother. The only way to not lose is to not play this game)
It's funny- just about every one of your posts could be read as projection.  We tried to confront this thing with facts, logic, and reason to 'shine light' on an overwrought conspiracy theory with no basis in fact.  The circumstances that led to it were a frightening abuse of surveillance powers and disinformation.  Those who use lies and trolling tactics propped up the conspiracy theory, carnival barking frauds like Seth Abramson and Adam Schiff were held up as 'the truth'.  

Any dissent from the overarching narrative was treated as heresy.  People who were skeptical were forced to humor it even though it was an extraordinarily asinine narrative from the very beginning, and debunked as such. 

Mueller found no conspiracy between Trump/Russia.  If he wanted to charge any single person who denied their role in the conspiracy for lying about it, he could have.  If he felt that strongly about it he could have subpoenaed Trump to talk about it, he didn't.  He wrote in his report that the Trump campaign didn't seem to have any idea how to reach key Russian affiliates to make a building in Moscow happen, which makes zero sense if they had strong ties to the Kremlin.  

Meanwhile, the US is engaged in multiple proxy wars in Venezuela, Iran, and Syria that could kick off a larger conflict.  The Bulletin of atomic scientists says we are 2 minutes to midnight, as the US and Russia reignite a nuclear arms race.  Trump has attacked the Russian pipeline in Germany, a key economic foothold for Putin in European markets.  None of this makes any sense unless the conspiracy theory is an absolute crock of ####.  Please, enough with this delusional belief system.

 
Trump has attacked the Russian pipeline in Germany, a key economic foothold for Putin in European markets.  None of this makes any sense unless the conspiracy theory is an absolute crock of ####.  Please, enough with this delusional belief system.
Several false assumptions here but one thing I’ll point out is that Trump has taken no proactive steps to counter it. Such steps would include expanding US LNG facilities delivering to Europe, supporting Ukraine and preventing it from falling back into the Russian fold (its a key alternative pathway for LNG), and supporting democracies in the East European, Caspian, Caucasus, and Syrian regions. Trump’s lip service on Nordstream should be put in the same category as his ridiculous yammerings on the 2010 era Nato spending requirements.

 
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Agreed, but this was bad for even this thread.  Someone couldn't handle an opposing view and called me bleepity bleep.  I reported it and someone else jumped in with a vulger personal insult at me and got rightfully banned for it.  Then folks accused me of trolling to try and get someone banned.   :lol: . You can't make this up.

I am guessing they are just realizing they got the wool pulled over their eyes with this Russian collusion nonsense and they refuse to acknoweledge the truth.
Yeah I saw that meltdown (surprised it’s still up honestly). People tend to lash out when they don’t have truth or facts on their side. It didn’t help that MSNBC Lawrence O’Donnell chummed the waters last week with yet another fake Russia bombshell. These poor people.

 
Ooh, the comments I left in here to the Moderator got pruned. Okay. Noted. I thought he took too much personal joy in Bob's suspension and told him Hmm...

He also pruned the comment about Sideshow Bob I made.

Hmm...again
Yep, mine too. History often gets rewritten in here. 

 
tonydead said:
This thread was d e a d dead until it got bumped by fake news that got everybody excited again.  :lol: Then the tantrums.  
It’ll perk back up again for good reason in mid-November 2020.

 
Especially when what you seek to post is said for no any reason other than to speak the truth (Or at the least an opinion backed by fact, logic, and reason) in an effort to shine light on some of the most scary realities any of us have witnessed during our lives. Meanwhile those who use lies and trolling tactics merely to invite and obfuscate get the green light to do so.

Why bother when truths are treated like venom (uncomfortable as those truths may be), and one is forced to uphold and treat lies and propaganda as if they were sincere and true in both intent, and content?

(Hint: Ya no longer bother. The only way to not lose is to not play this game)
Exactly. I barely come in the PSF any more, occasionally to read. This site is now complicit in the normalization of Trumpism.

But ...both sides. Or...same as day one...or whatever other ridiculous whitewash justification. It’s really disturbing.

 
tonydead said:
fake news...
I just thought this interview between Brian Kilmeade and Trump was interesting:

KILMEADE: So Mr. President, there was a big story yesterday and we see the video of the new wall going up with the bollard fencing  ... and the word went out and the story came out that you told your people, put the wall up and if you get sued, don’t worry about it, I’ll pardon you. And then everyone’s --

TRUMP: Yes, fake news. More fake news, just like Lawrence O’Donnell had -- listen, Lawrence O’Donnell said the Russians guaranteed a loan for me and it was -- look, this guy and almost all of them have been lying for years about me. Lying, saying also -- as an example, I built an unbelievable company, unbelievable. Because I don’t need many banks because I have a lot of cash and I have a lot of cash flow, they say, oh the banks don’t want to do business. The banks wanted to do business with me. In fact, people don’t realize -- and you remember this. Deutsche Bank, if you go back 10, 12, 15 years ago when I dealt with Deutsche Bank, that was the Rolls Royce bank. That was Germany you were dealing with. That was the strongest, the biggest…  that was one of the great banks of the world. Now they make it sound like, you know, because Deutsche Bank, nothing to do with me, Deutsche Bank has had a lot of problems over the last five or six years. But when I was dealing with them, they were the Rolls Royce. They were Germany. They were the Triple-A standard and now they say, oh, he couldn’t do business with other banks. That’s a phony deal, too. Total phony stuff. And if -- you know, when I do a deal --

KILMEADE: So did you have an oligarch cosign?

TRUMP: When I put up cash -- hey Brian -- when I put up cash to do a deal, because I don’t need a bank ... they say he can’t -- he had to put up cash. Well, how would I have the cash to put up? If I don’t need a bank, I just wouldn’t do the deal. So what happened is they try and demean and diminish and it’s such a disgrace. But Deutsche Bank was a -- was really the -- I would say just about the ultimate bank then. Now it’s come upon hard times but has nothing to do with me. And because I don’t borrow a lot of money, they go around saying the banks didn’t want to do business with him, totally false. I could’ve had -- there were so many lenders. There was ... lenders all over the place. Anybody, I mean most people

KILMEADE: So, he said he had a single source that said an oligarch cosigned a loan. Is that true?

TRUMP: I don’t believe he had a single source. And if he does have a single source, he should sue the source because it’s made him look like -- you know, it’s exposed him for being a fraud because, look, Lawrence O'Donnell has been lying about me. If you remember, we had a big dispute in The Apprentice. He said I was never paid anything. ...

 
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So to reiterate on this, in hearing:

Trump's lawyers wanted to know why they wanted to 'go back so far' and Judge referenced Deutsche Bank had to pay 'heavy fines' regarding Russian oligarchs and money laundering.

...'Why would you give money to Trump when no other bank would touch him?'

...Trump's lawyers argued the disclosure of family members would cause 'irreparable harm' the judge kept referencing this is about the 'separation of powers' and Trump's right to financial privacy does not apply here.

...'Deutsche Bank loaned Trump $2 billion when they knew it was not properly underwritten' 'money laundering is a threat to our national security'
- Trump's request for stay was denied. That's currently on appeal.

Basically what this is about is that DB - a notorious money launderer - for some reason had so much faith in Trump's claims about himself that they ignored multiple several-hundred-million dollar defaults to extend him credit without sufficient collateral.

In the interview above Trump lied about the nature of DB, his own business reputation, the fact that banks would lend to him, and the existence of collateral, and then he claimed that LOD had a vendetta against him because Trump had allegedly humiliated him (which sounds a lot like the old Mueller is out to get Trump over his old club fees dispute red herring).

LOD obviously withdrew his report but not the claim that he has a source and the question remains as to how Trump got this loan.

 
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In the interview above Trump lied about the nature of DB, his own business reputation, the fact that banks would lend to him, and the existence of collateral, and then he claimed that LOD had a vendetta against him because Trump had allegedly humiliated him (which sounds a lot like the old Mueller is out to get Trump over his old club fees dispute red herring).
It's the first rules of the sociopath's playbook: never accept responsibility and always accuse your accuser.

There was a time when the party of personal responsibility would have considered this behavior to be an abhorrent dealbreaker. But that seems so long ago.

 
Oligarch is such a bizarre term.  It basically means "rich guy," but Russian.  Their wealth was ill-gotten, our oligarchs are 'tycoons, job creators, philanthropists' who got there through scrappy hard work, etc.  They'll never spin Saudi $$$ like this.  

 
Oligarch is such a bizarre term.  It basically means "rich guy," but Russian.  Their wealth was ill-gotten, our oligarchs are 'tycoons, job creators, philanthropists' who got there through scrappy hard work, etc.  They'll never spin Saudi $$$ like this.  
Wat?

 
Oligarch is such a bizarre term.  It basically means "rich guy," but Russian.  Their wealth was ill-gotten, our oligarchs are 'tycoons, job creators, philanthropists' who got there through scrappy hard work, etc.  They'll never spin Saudi $$$ like this.  
Oligarch has a technical definition as well as a colloquial one. Technically it refers to the 30 or so Russians who received or hold control over industries spun off post-USSR dissolution. Someone like Prigozhin may have come in late but he has still garnered a good deal of control over military and domestic security outsourcing for the Russian government. He's not an oligarch simply because he's rich. They all answer to Putin. It's practically tsarist the way Putin has it structured.

 
Oligarch has a technical definition as well as a colloquial one. Technically it refers to the 30 or so Russians who received or hold control over industries spun off post-USSR dissolution. Someone like Prigozhin may have come in late but he has still garnered a good deal of control over military and domestic security outsourcing for the Russian government. He's not an oligarch simply because he's rich. They all answer to Putin. It's practically tsarist the way Putin has it structured.
One working definition of oligarch according to merriam-webster is “a member or supporter of an oligarchy.”  The US is an oligarchy.  It is run by oligarchs.     

Most if not all of ours have benefited from a system where they basically bought the legislature and regulatory bodies that are supposed to oversee them.  It’s a slightly different variant of using state power to their personal advantage.  

So the application of this term against Russians especially seems xenophobic in a way.  That rich Russian ###holes are somehow more inherently evil than our rich ###holes.  Or people who had wealth cut out for them from a collapsed empire are more nefarious than people who personally rigged it in their own favor.  

I doubt the veracity of the claim to begin with, but even if it were true I think it’s better ascribed  to regular run of the mill corruption.  There is no need to connect the dots to the debunked conspiracy theory investigation.  

 
One working definition of oligarch according to merriam-webster is “a member or supporter of an oligarchy.”  The US is an oligarchy.  It is run by oligarchs.     

Most if not all of ours have benefited from a system where they basically bought the legislature and regulatory bodies that are supposed to oversee them.  It’s a slightly different variant of using state power to their personal advantage.  

So the application of this term against Russians especially seems xenophobic in a way.  That rich Russian ###holes are somehow more inherently evil than our rich ###holes.  Or people who had wealth cut out for them from a collapsed empire are more nefarious than people who personally rigged it in their own favor.  

I doubt the veracity of the claim to begin with, but even if it were true I think it’s better ascribed  to regular run of the mill corruption.  There is no need to connect the dots to the debunked conspiracy theory investigation.  
Right again you’re talking colloquially - Webster’s - as opposed to Russian history. Feel free to make any conclusions about corruption generally. I have zero idea why someone would generally hold xenophobic fears of Russia, but I do know that’s strictly a Kremlin talking point created for domestic consumption. Nobody else takes that claim seriously or ever makes it.

 
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Russian interference in our election, the Trump campaign colluding with Russians during our election, and Donald Trump’s obstruction during the investigation has not, repeat NOT been debunked whatsoever.
FAKE NEWS!  FAKE NEWS!  FAKE NEWS!  FAKE NEWS!  FAKE NEWS!  FAKE NEWS!

 
I remember that statement and no I don’t think Clapper meant that literally, he meant it in the sense of the Soviet apparatus that Putin and his henchmen emerged from. That’s political culture, not a national or ethnic comment. 
It doesn't matter what you think he meant.  What he said is a xenophobic statement.  If I said Jews are "almost genetically driven to" ____, or Mexicans are "almost genetically driven to" ____, you'd be rightly appalled by it.  Talking about a demographic's genetics is explicitly racial/ethnic.  

 
https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-flock-to-trump-properties-to-give-birth-to-us-citizens

How about this one from the Daily Beast, complete with an image of a Russian baby wearing a MAGA hat?  The RUSSIANS are BREEDING at TRUMP PROPERTIES!  

It's not unlike the infestation rhetoric that Trump uses against immigrants.  Look at this comment from one of these resister types:

"Shawn Teixeira @ShawnTeixeira1 Replying to @RepSwalwell

Don't share how Drumpf loves Russia and has a for profit anchor baby factory. #TrumpisPutins#####"

 
It doesn't matter what you think he meant.  What he said is a xenophobic statement.  If I said Jews are "almost genetically driven to" ____, or Mexicans are "almost genetically driven to" ____, you'd be rightly appalled by it.  Talking about a demographic's genetics is explicitly racial/ethnic.  
But there is no ethnic oppression of Russians in America. That POV makes no sense by itself.

However, “the historical practices of the Russians, who typically, are almost genetically driven to co-opt, penetrate, gain favor, whatever, which is a typical Russian technique” does make sense in the Soviet and post-Soviet context. Even Taibbi has said just that.

 
But there is no ethnic oppression of Russians in America. That POV makes no sense by itself.

However, “the historical practices of the Russians, who typically, are almost genetically driven to co-opt, penetrate, gain favor, whatever, which is a typical Russian technique” does make sense in the Soviet and post-Soviet context. Even Taibbi has said just that.
Did he?

 
You shouldn't be.  Insulting the president is ban worthy.  I got several days for calling him a moron after he tweeted that global warming is a hoax.
lol wut? I mean, in fairness it might be that Trump denies global warming not because he's a moron, but because he's corrupt and simply doesn't care, so is lying .

 
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Andrew McCarthy is definitely insane.  But he's always fun to read, and he's gotten this issue right.  It's a fair point- McCabe lied during his investigation, wasn't charged.  Clapper perjured himself in front of the whole world about mass surveillance, wasn't charged.  Brennan wiretapped the Senate and lied about it, wasn't charged.  It seems the sky's the limit for anti-Trump spooks and their cable news careers.  

Meanwhile George P lies about the timing of a meet- not the meeting itself but the specific date in which it occurred, several months after it happened, then gets painted as a conspirator/traitor, then gets charged.  Clearly there's a different legal system for feds than there is for the rest of us.  Why, it's almost as if the institutions people just spent the past 2 years jerking off as noble pursuers of justice don't hold themselves accountable when the shoe is on the other foot.  

But sure Tobias, obfuscate this substantive critique with this other, admittedly bizarre literature he has written.  
The substance of this piece was also pure nonsense. He thought they twisted and turned to Iet Clinton off the hook, which is silly. I wrote extensively here about how she hadn't committed a crime for months before the FBI made the easy call.  Virtually everyone with expertise in the interpretation and application of federal criminal law who wasn't an insane right wing mouthpiece agreed. But that's the thing about people who have written books about how Obama is instituting Sharia law- they tend to be insane right wing mouthpieces on other issues too.

ETA: also there's a huge difference between being evasive in front of the Senate when facing pointed political questioning and lying to federal investigators in an attempt to forestall their investigation. Should it matter? I don't know. But it always has- prosecutions based on congressional testimony are incredibly rare . It's insane to think this is some sort of deep state conspiracy to favor "anti-Trump spooks" and not just standard operating procedure for decades. After all, plenty of Trump people also lied to Congress and weren't charged for it, including some people named Trump.

 
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