The teaching of our history: critical race theory and The 1619 Project (1 Viewer)

[stlrams]

But it has been taught from a perspective already...hasn't it?  The perspective of whoever wrote the book used by each school district.  History has always been taught from someone's perspective...and what seems to be getting pointed out now...is that for the most part, it was taught from the perspective of the white man.

Sad that this needs to be added...no, Im not saying all white people are bad or racist.  But the fact is, history was taught from that perspective...and wasn't always taught correctly IMO.  Somethings were glossed over and treated as if it was all ok now.

The basis of history is factual and therefore color blind.  Teachers and publishers are people who are not infallible and certainly do offer their perspectives and viewpoints that reflect their version of history.  Not sure you went to school but I have a very different experience of history and in particular black history.  

 

[sho nuff]

The basis of history is factual and therefore color blind.  Teachers and publishers are people who are not infallible and certainly do offer their perspectives and viewpoints that reflect their version of history.  Not sure you went to school but I have a very different experience of history and in particular black history.  

The basis sure...but we haven't been teaching from that basis.  We have been teaching mostly from the perspective of the white man (that is who wrote the books...that most learned history from).

 

[da_budman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MKm9TB9b6s

 

[KarmaPolice]

History should not be anyone’s perspective.  

Of course it should be, and IMO that's what makes it interesting.  

I get what you are saying if we are just going on dates, laws, etc.   Ie - D-Day was on 6/6/44.  That doesn't need perspective.  But, now how did that effect us?  How did it effect the other side?  Were there mistakes made? etc, etc.    Digging in deeper is what requires different perspectives.  

All people are saying is that most history is taught through one lens.  There is nothing wrong with looking at the war from the German, Russian, or Japanese perspective.   That doesn't take away dates or outcome.   

Same thing here - just because people are asking for a different look at slavery or its ramifications decades after, doesn't take away anything from the traditional narrative, and it certainly doesn't require us to feel guilty about something.  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Same thing here - just because people are asking for a different look at slavery or its ramifications decades after, doesn't take away anything from the traditional narrative, and it certainly doesn't require us to feel guilty about something.  

I think you're glossing over how threatening this narrative is to conservatives.  

When I took history in high school, I don't remember any discussions like "why do black families currently have so much less wealth than white families?" or "why are black people incarcerated at such higher rates than white people today?"  These subjects, despite their importance in understanding this country, were completely ignored.

Critical race theory attempts to answer those sorts of questions.  And the answer critical race theory gives is that these inequalities are the end result of hundreds of years of governmental and institutional actions that placed enormous roadblocks in front of black people.  It's not due to just making bad choices or not working hard enough or something like that.

But that's a very dangerous conclusion to reach if you're someone that opposes things like the redistribution of wealth or the reform of law enforcement, or who thinks that this country is a meritocracy where people get what they deserve.  Those positions no longer seem "fair."  And it's hard to claim the moral high ground if you are advocating for unfair policies.

 

[ekbeats]

So what’s the end game here?  Where does all this obsessive focus on race lead to?  Maybe crap like this?

NYC psychiatrist tells woke Yale University panel she fantasizes about shooting dead white people during talk entitled 'The Psychopathic Problem of the White Mind'

This is Yale University Med School.  It’s not some fringe garbage at some obscure college in the Pacific Northwest.  And it’s new.  You never saw stuff like this 40 years ago.  Now it’s everywhere.  Not a day goes by where I don’t see some anti-white racist crap in my news feed.

 

[FairWarning]

I think you're glossing over how threatening this narrative is to conservatives.  

When I took history in high school, I don't remember any discussions like "why do black families currently have so much less wealth than white families?" or "why are black people incarcerated at such higher rates than white people today?"  These subjects, despite their importance in understanding this country, were completely ignored.

Critical race theory attempts to answer those sorts of questions.  And the answer critical race theory gives is that these inequalities are the end result of hundreds of years of governmental and institutional actions that placed enormous roadblocks in front of black people.  It's not due to just making bad choices or not working hard enough or something like that.

But that's a very dangerous conclusion to reach if you're someone that opposes things like the redistribution of wealth or the reform of law enforcement, or who thinks that this country is a meritocracy where people get what they deserve.  Those positions no longer seem "fair."  And it's hard to claim the moral high ground if you are advocating for unfair policies.

When was life ever fair?  This is one of the biggest complaints I have about the left - outcomes have to be fair.  Fair is being given an opportunity.  Many countries don’t offer that. Now what one does it that opportunity is on them.  Let’s say everyone gets that opportunity today.  That doesn’t change any facts about the 1619 protect, but we cannot change those facts either.  It seems like the left likes to continually bring up those facts and how they were wronged.  All we can do as a nation is be better going forward.

 

[stlrams]

Of course it should be, and IMO that's what makes it interesting.  

I get what you are saying if we are just going on dates, laws, etc.   Ie - D-Day was on 6/6/44.  That doesn't need perspective.  But, now how did that effect us?  How did it effect the other side?  Were there mistakes made? etc, etc.    Digging in deeper is what requires different perspectives.  

All people are saying is that most history is taught through one lens.  There is nothing wrong with looking at the war from the German, Russian, or Japanese perspective.   That doesn't take away dates or outcome.   

Same thing here - just because people are asking for a different look at slavery or its ramifications decades after, doesn't take away anything from the traditional narrative, and it certainly doesn't require us to feel guilty about something.  

No problem looking from different perspectives but it needs to be rooted in actual facts unlike 1619 project.  For example, the first Africans that came over in 1619 were not slaves but indentured servants who would get their freedom after several years.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

So what’s the end game here?  Where does all this obsessive focus on race lead to?  Maybe crap like this?

NYC psychiatrist tells woke Yale University panel she fantasizes about shooting dead white people during talk entitled 'The Psychopathic Problem of the White Mind'

This is Yale University Med School.  It’s not some fringe garbage at some obscure college in the Pacific Northwest.  And it’s new.  You never saw stuff like this 40 years ago.  Now it’s everywhere.  Not a day goes by where I don’t see some anti-white racist crap in my news feed.

yeah, I don't see that stuff daily in my news feed, but that's also a topic been done to death. 

That has 0 to do with rational people wanting to teach and learn history from multiple perspectives.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

No problem looking from different perspectives but it needs to be rooted in actual facts unlike 1619 project.  For example, the first Africans that came over in 1619 were not slaves but indentured servants who would get their freedom after several years.  

that's a fair criticism 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

When was life ever fair?  This is one of the biggest complaints I have about the left - outcomes have to be fair.  Fair is being given an opportunity.  Many countries don’t offer that. Now what one does it that opportunity is on them.  Let’s say everyone gets that opportunity today.  That doesn’t change any facts about the 1619 protect, but we cannot change those facts either.  It seems like the left likes to continually bring up those facts and how they were wronged.  All we can do as a nation is be better going forward.

We can have race-blind laws but that still doesn't give everyone equal opportunities.  If you are born into a poor family and sent to a crappy school your opportunities are very different from someone born into a rich family that gets a good education. 

Opportunities are nowhere near equal in the United States today. 

 

[sho nuff]

So what’s the end game here?  Where does all this obsessive focus on race lead to?  Maybe crap like this?

NYC psychiatrist tells woke Yale University panel she fantasizes about shooting dead white people during talk entitled 'The Psychopathic Problem of the White Mind'

This is Yale University Med School.  It’s not some fringe garbage at some obscure college in the Pacific Northwest.  And it’s new.  You never saw stuff like this 40 years ago.  Now it’s everywhere.  Not a day goes by where I don’t see some anti-white racist crap in my news feed.

Its actually a NYC speaker making such claims, not Yale Med school teaching it.  And it has next to nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

 

[BladeRunner]

I think what everyone seems to be forgetting is that CRT is rooted in Marxist and Communist teachings/ideology.

THAT ALONE disqualifies CRT from any legitimate conversation.  We should not now or ever entertain anything that springs forth from those horrid ideologies/systems.  They literally require revisions to history (As an example, see what Stalin did).

 

[BladeRunner]

We can have race-blind laws but that still doesn't give everyone equal opportunities.  If you are born into a poor family and sent to a crappy school your opportunities are very different from someone born into a rich family that gets a good education. 

Opportunities are nowhere near equal in the United States today. 

Oh,

This is the problem - go live in any other country and report back.  People don't flock here in droves because it's racist beyond belief. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

You never saw stuff like this 40 years ago.  Now it’s everywhere.  Not a day goes by where I don’t see some anti-white racist crap in my news feed.

Did you have a newsfeed 40 years ago?  Maybe people were saying similar stuff and you just weren't hearing it because there was no computer algorithm feeding you these stories every day to make you outraged.

 

[Sinn Fein]

No problem looking from different perspectives but it needs to be rooted in actual facts unlike 1619 project.  For example, the first Africans that came over in 1619 were not slaves but indentured servants who would get their freedom after several years.  

In August of 1619, a ship appeared on this horizon, near Point Comfort, a coastal port in the English colony of Virginia. It carried more than 20 enslaved Africans, who were sold to the colonists. 

This is the front page of the 1619 Project.  Are you saying this is factually incorrect?

This is from the City of Hampton - which covers the then Point Comfort (and where I lived for several years):

In late August, 1619, 20-30 enslaved Africans landed at Point Comfort, today's Fort Monroe in Hampton, Va., aboard the English privateer ship White Lion. In Virginia, these Africans were traded in exchange for supplies. Several days later, a second ship (Treasurer) arrived in Virginia with additional enslaved Africans. Both groups had been captured by English privateers from the Spanish slave ship San Juan Bautista. They are the first recorded Africans to arrive in England's mainland American colonies.

The landing of the first Africans in Virginia is one of the most significant events we interpret. Although English colonists in Virginia did not invent slavery, and the transition from a handful of bound African laborers to a legalized system of full-blown chattel slavery took many decades, 1619 marks the beginning of race-based bondage that defined the African American experience.

Were the first Africans indentured servants or enslaved?

The historical record does not say for sure, but most historians agree the vast majority of Virginia’s earliest Africans were enslaved.  Certainly, they were enslaved on board the Spanish ship San Juan Bautista.  When they arrived in Virginia, they were traded as commodities.  There are no historical records to indicate they were given regular indenture contracts used by English servants.  Once in Virginia, a few Africans may have been treated in a manner similar to white indentured servants or had an opportunity to earn freedom, but existing records do not indicate this was the experience for most Africans, who were enslaved from the outset.

 

[ekbeats]

yeah, I don't see that stuff daily in my news feed, but that's also a topic been done to death. 

That has 0 to do with rational people wanting to teach and learn history from multiple perspectives.  

This is the logical outgrowth of identity politics leads.  Liberals have been driving wedges for the last 50 years.  There’s an old phrase “Be careful what you wish for”.

 

[timschochet]

I think what everyone seems to be forgetting is that CRT is rooted in Marxist and Communist teachings/ideology.

THAT ALONE disqualifies CRT from any legitimate conversation.  We should not now or ever entertain anything that springs forth from those horrid ideologies/systems.  They literally require revisions to history (As an example, see what Stalin did).

This is simplistic, lazy, and not true. 
And even if it was true it wouldn’t be sound policy. Communism and Marxism are, in general awful ideologies, but there are certain positive ideas that have sprung from them that are worth entertaining. For example, both Social Security and Medicare originated as Marxist ideas. 

 

[BladeRunner]

This is simplistic, lazy, and not true. 
And even if it was true it wouldn’t be sound policy. Communism and Marxism are, in general awful ideologies, but there are certain positive ideas that have sprung from them that are worth entertaining. For example, both Social Security and Medicare originated as Marxist ideas. 

Negative, Tim.  It's as real and true as the day is long. 

"Positive ideas" of Marxism and Communism when implemented in reality end up with high body counts. We actual have evidence.  100+ million so far in the 20th century alone.  No one has ever been able to put any of these "Positive Ideas" in place without killing A LOT of people.

Sorry, your praise of these horrid ideologies is absolutely and completely wrong.  So, yeah, let's not trust the Marxists and Communists yet again.  History is on my side, not yours.  Why have you not learned from it?

The price of believing what the MSM spoon feeds you strikes YET again. 

 

[timschochet]

Negative, Tim.  It's as real and true as the day is long. 

"Positive ideas" of Marxism and Communism when implemented in reality end up with high body counts. We actual have evidence.  100+ million so far in the 20th century alone.  No one has ever been able to put any of these "Positive Ideas" in place without killing A LOT of people.

Sorry, your praise of these horrid ideologies is absolutely and completely wrong.  So, yeah, let's not trust the Marxists and Communists yet again.  History is on my side, not yours.  Why have you not learned from it?

The price of believing what the MSM spoon feeds you strikes YET again. 

Again, I’m not trying to insult you here but you’re being awfully simplistic. I just informed you that Democrats stole both Social Security and Medicare from the socialist parties of the world and nobody died. We took many of our highway designs from Hitler’s autobahn ideas and nobody died. 
Ideas come from all sorts of weird places and we shouldn’t be afraid of them. We can learn from them, absorb them when they’re good, reject them when they’re evil. That’s what thinking adults are supposed to do. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

This is the logical outgrowth of identity politics leads.  Liberals have been driving wedges for the last 50 years.  There’s an old phrase “Be careful what you wish for”.

it's also a logical conclusion of click bait headlines and the types of sites you visit.  

 

[ekbeats]

it's also a logical conclusion of click bait headlines and the types of sites you visit.  

Yet it happened, didn’t it?  It happened at Yale University.  And they invited her to speak.  Keep blaming right-wing websites for publishing the crap Liberals are putting out.  It’s an interesting angle, that’s for sure. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Yet it happened, didn’t it?  It happened at Yale University.  And they invited her to speak.  Keep blaming right-wing websites for publishing the crap Liberals are putting out.  It’s an interesting angle, that’s for sure. 

Problem is, and this is just our differing world views it seems, you equate that to all liberals or think nutty ideas are the inevitable conclusion for the left as a whole.   

It happened, but the fact that you say you see this every day 100% tells me it's more to do with the sites your are on and less to do with the % of the population think that way.  Sites make $ amplifying this crap and making it feel like it's common. 

I would think it would give you guys a clue when you claim that this is an extreme left message board, but I have yet to see ideas that you guys think is prevalent on the left:  feel guilty about skin color, the country is racist, we want equal outcomes, etc, etc, etc.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think you're glossing over how threatening this narrative is to conservatives.  

When I took history in high school, I don't remember any discussions like "why do black families currently have so much less wealth than white families?" or "why are black people incarcerated at such higher rates than white people today?"  These subjects, despite their importance in understanding this country, were completely ignored.

Critical race theory attempts to answer those sorts of questions.  And the answer critical race theory gives is that these inequalities are the end result of hundreds of years of governmental and institutional actions that placed enormous roadblocks in front of black people.  It's not due to just making bad choices or not working hard enough or something like that.

But that's a very dangerous conclusion to reach if you're someone that opposes things like the redistribution of wealth or the reform of law enforcement, or who thinks that this country is a meritocracy where people get what they deserve.  Those positions no longer seem "fair."  And it's hard to claim the moral high ground if you are advocating for unfair policies.

Good post, I need to let that sink in a bit more.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

When was life ever fair?  This is one of the biggest complaints I have about the left - outcomes have to be fair.  Fair is being given an opportunity.  Many countries don’t offer that. Now what one does it that opportunity is on them.  Let’s say everyone gets that opportunity today.  That doesn’t change any facts about the 1619 protect, but we cannot change those facts either.  It seems like the left likes to continually bring up those facts and how they were wronged.  All we can do as a nation is be better going forward.

To me this post also feels a bit like, F-it can't change the past, move on and don't talk about it.   To me that's not what history is about, we still need to understand how things got this way so we know how best to address them.  

To me the bolded is something I hear from the right a lot, but I don't see it near as much on the left.   I think there is a big difference between we are fine now, move on (I get this tone from the right) and everything has to have an equal outcome (I see this rarely).  I think most people are figuring out something in between.  

Just something simple like the example about "ethnic sounding" names getting far fewer call backs for interviews.   A policy suggestion would be to somehow avoid names, or make it so that you have to interview everybody.   That's not saying that we have to have equal distribution of races for all jobs, but that's addressing even getting that opportunity to begin with.   These are the types of things that I see brought up that people want addressed.  They don't think certain groups are on an equal playing field opportunity -wise.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

When was life ever fair?  This is one of the biggest complaints I have about the left - outcomes have to be fair.  Fair is being given an opportunity.  Many countries don’t offer that. Now what one does it that opportunity is on them.  Let’s say everyone gets that opportunity today.  That doesn’t change any facts about the 1619 protect, but we cannot change those facts either.  It seems like the left likes to continually bring up those facts and how they were wronged.  All we can do as a nation is be better going forward.

I would put it like this:

My kids are white, I have a JD and MBA, my wife has a masters degree.  We place a high value on education - as did our parents when we were kids.  My parents are both college graduates, as are all four of my grandparents.  So, through a combination of nurture and nature, we have put our kids in a position to be successful in school.  That started by reading to them as they were babies, through pre-school, kindergarten, elementary, and now high school.  We have ensured that they valued their own education by making them do homework, and providing them with the resources to be successful.

Now compare a similar aged black student, whose parents are high school graduates, and who do not place a high value on education, and who don't read to their kids, or send them to pre-school - because their parents went through "separate but equal" and don't value education, because  their parents did not even get separate but equal.

That black student, and my child start the same school - but its not an equal experience, and that is down to generations of experiences that came before our kids ever stepped foot into a school.  As a society, we don't need to handicap my child, but we should be thinking about ways to get other children to that level - when its not in the realm of possibilities in the world in which they live.  Right now they might go to the same school - but they don't have the same opportunity - from day one.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I would put it like this:

My kids are white, I have a JD and MBA, my wife has a masters degree.  We place a high value on education - as did our parents when we were kids.  My parents are both college graduates, as are all four of my grandparents.  So, through a combination of nurture and nature, we have put our kids in a position to be successful in school.  That started by reading to them as they were babies, through pre-school, kindergarten, elementary, and now high school.  We have ensured that they valued their own education by making them do homework, and providing them with the resources to be successful.

Now compare a similar aged black student, whose parents are high school graduates, and who do not place a high value on education, and who don't read to their kids, or send them to pre-school - because their parents went through "separate but equal" and don't value education, because  their parents did not even get separate but equal.

That black student, and my child start the same school - but its not an equal experience, and that is down to generations of experiences that came before our kids ever stepped foot into a school.  As a society, we don't need to handicap my child, but we should be thinking about ways to get other children to that level - when its not in the realm of possibilities in the world in which they live.  Right now they might go to the same school - but they don't have the same opportunity - from day one.

And pinky has talked about his experiences - a teacher trying to hold him back for an advanced class, not getting shown houses in different areas, etc.   This isn't 60 years ago, these things still happen and it adds up in a big hurry.   

Like you said, I don't see people advocating dropping your child, they are talking about trying to elevate other groups and/or trying to remove obstacles.  

 

[The Commish]

So what’s the end game here?  Where does all this obsessive focus on race lead to?  Maybe crap like this?

NYC psychiatrist tells woke Yale University panel she fantasizes about shooting dead white people during talk entitled 'The Psychopathic Problem of the White Mind'

This is Yale University Med School.  It’s not some fringe garbage at some obscure college in the Pacific Northwest.  And it’s new.  You never saw stuff like this 40 years ago.  Now it’s everywhere.  Not a day goes by where I don’t see some anti-white racist crap in my news feed.

This is pretty gross, but I'm struggling to understand why #1, we are taking Daily Mail at face value but even if everything they say is 100% accurate, #2  what you think this has to do with CRT and belongs in this thread?  

 

[The Commish]

When was life ever fair?  This is one of the biggest complaints I have about the left - outcomes have to be fair.  Fair is being given an opportunity.  Many countries don’t offer that. Now what one does it that opportunity is on them.  Let’s say everyone gets that opportunity today.  That doesn’t change any facts about the 1619 protect, but we cannot change those facts either.  It seems like the left likes to continually bring up those facts and how they were wronged.  All we can do as a nation is be better going forward.

He's not saying life has to be fair.  He's saying the playing field should be as fair as possible.  Those are two very different things.  Life is hard enough just by itself.  

 

[The Commish]

In August of 1619, a ship appeared on this horizon, near Point Comfort, a coastal port in the English colony of Virginia. It carried more than 20 enslaved Africans, who were sold to the colonists. 

This is the front page of the 1619 Project.  Are you saying this is factually incorrect?

This is from the City of Hampton - which covers the then Point Comfort (and where I lived for several years):

In late August, 1619, 20-30 enslaved Africans landed at Point Comfort, today's Fort Monroe in Hampton, Va., aboard the English privateer ship White Lion. In Virginia, these Africans were traded in exchange for supplies. Several days later, a second ship (Treasurer) arrived in Virginia with additional enslaved Africans. Both groups had been captured by English privateers from the Spanish slave ship San Juan Bautista. They are the first recorded Africans to arrive in England's mainland American colonies.

The landing of the first Africans in Virginia is one of the most significant events we interpret. Although English colonists in Virginia did not invent slavery, and the transition from a handful of bound African laborers to a legalized system of full-blown chattel slavery took many decades, 1619 marks the beginning of race-based bondage that defined the African American experience.

Were the first Africans indentured servants or enslaved?

The historical record does not say for sure, but most historians agree the vast majority of Virginia’s earliest Africans were enslaved.  Certainly, they were enslaved on board the Spanish ship San Juan Bautista.  When they arrived in Virginia, they were traded as commodities.  There are no historical records to indicate they were given regular indenture contracts used by English servants.  Once in Virginia, a few Africans may have been treated in a manner similar to white indentured servants or had an opportunity to earn freedom, but existing records do not indicate this was the experience for most Africans, who were enslaved from the outset.

And this is why we need to have the discussion.  I don't know if they were enslaved or indentured.  No clue at all.  I know that two groups claim two different things here.  So, let's see the documentation and evidence of each and have the discussion.  If I had to bet today, some were slaves and some were servants.  The truth is in the middle almost 100% of the time.

 

[Sinn Fein]

And this is why we need to have the discussion.  I don't know if they were enslaved or indentured.  No clue at all.  I know that two groups claim two different things here.  So, let's see the documentation and evidence of each and have the discussion.  If I had to bet today, some were slaves and some were servants.  The truth is in the middle almost 100% of the time.

The written documents are pretty inconclusive.

I read the log from the Virginia company that described trading goods for "negroes"

Later in a 1625 census, at least one of the people was described as a servant.

Its seems clear that they had been captured in Angola, and were being transported as slaves*, and they were in fact part of a trade of goods.

*Slave trade, particularly to the Caribbean had been going on, long before this, and it is believed that the Spanish brought slaves to America with Ponce de Leon into present day Florida, in the search for the fountain of youth.  And, I think there is evidence that some English colonists had taken native Americans as slaves prior to this particular arrival.

 

[ekbeats]

This is pretty gross, but I'm struggling to understand why #1, we are taking Daily Mail at face value but even if everything they say is 100% accurate, #2  what you think this has to do with CRT and belongs in this thread?  

The link police, they live inside of my head 
The link police, they come to me in my bed 
The link police, they're coming to arrest me, oh no.

 

[KarmaPolice]

can't. answer. question.

must. resort. to. link police. shtick. 

 

[ekbeats]

can't. answer. question.

must. resort. to. link police. shtick. 

What question?

 

[KarmaPolice]

This is pretty gross, but I'm struggling to understand why #1, we are taking Daily Mail at face value but even if everything they say is 100% accurate, #2  what you think this has to do with CRT and belongs in this thread?  

What question?

 

[ekbeats]

Stay in your lane bro  

 

[stlrams]

In August of 1619, a ship appeared on this horizon, near Point Comfort, a coastal port in the English colony of Virginia. It carried more than 20 enslaved Africans, who were sold to the colonists. 

This is the front page of the 1619 Project.  Are you saying this is factually incorrect?

This is from the City of Hampton - which covers the then Point Comfort (and where I lived for several years):

In late August, 1619, 20-30 enslaved Africans landed at Point Comfort, today's Fort Monroe in Hampton, Va., aboard the English privateer ship White Lion. In Virginia, these Africans were traded in exchange for supplies. Several days later, a second ship (Treasurer) arrived in Virginia with additional enslaved Africans. Both groups had been captured by English privateers from the Spanish slave ship San Juan Bautista. They are the first recorded Africans to arrive in England's mainland American colonies.

The landing of the first Africans in Virginia is one of the most significant events we interpret. Although English colonists in Virginia did not invent slavery, and the transition from a handful of bound African laborers to a legalized system of full-blown chattel slavery took many decades, 1619 marks the beginning of race-based bondage that defined the African American experience.

Were the first Africans indentured servants or enslaved?

The historical record does not say for sure, but most historians agree the vast majority of Virginia’s earliest Africans were enslaved.  Certainly, they were enslaved on board the Spanish ship San Juan Bautista.  When they arrived in Virginia, they were traded as commodities.  There are no historical records to indicate they were given regular indenture contracts used by English servants.  Once in Virginia, a few Africans may have been treated in a manner similar to white indentured servants or had an opportunity to earn freedom, but existing records do not indicate this was the experience for most Africans, who were enslaved from the outset.

I’m well aware of the above.  Slavery laws did not exist until later.  In addition, slavery existed in what is now America for hundreds of years prior to 1619.  Native Americans enslave people from other tribes.  The Spanish also had slaves here in the 1500’s.  

 

[FairWarning]

We can have race-blind laws but that still doesn't give everyone equal opportunities.  If you are born into a poor family and sent to a crappy school your opportunities are very different from someone born into a rich family that gets a good education. 

Opportunities are nowhere near equal in the United States today. 

Oh really?  I'm pretty sure if you are a minority, you are getting carte blanche to most any university.  Do you think China is offering that?  Want to go to Stanford but you're in a poor family?  No need to worry - its free.  They define free if your family makes under $125K.  I'm sure they are not the only school doing it either.

 

[FairWarning]

He's not saying life has to be fair.  He's saying the playing field should be as fair as possible.  Those are two very different things.  Life is hard enough just by itself.  

He may not say it but far too many believe the outcome should be fair.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

I’m well aware of the above.  Slavery laws did not exist until later.  In addition, slavery existed in what is now America for hundreds of years prior to 1619.  Native Americans enslave people from other tribes.  The Spanish also had slaves here in the 1500’s.  

So you agree the statement on the 1619 project is factually correct.  

 

[stlrams]

So you agree the statement on the 1619 project is factually correct.  

Absolutely not.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

Absolutely not.  

Well let’s try again.   This is the statement:  In August of 1619, a ship appeared on this horizon, near Point Comfort, a coastal port in the English colony of Virginia. It carried more than 20 enslaved Africans, who were sold to the colonists. 
 

I posted the actual original document supporting this statement. What part do you think is false?

 

[stlrams]

Well let’s try again.   This is the statement:  In August of 1619, a ship appeared on this horizon, near Point Comfort, a coastal port in the English colony of Virginia. It carried more than 20 enslaved Africans, who were sold to the colonists. 
 

I posted the actual original document supporting this statement. What part do you think is false?

I’m not buying into the 1619 project which is revisionist history imo.  It’s factually inaccurate, it portrays viewpoints and perspectives as historical facts and it’s produced by a news outlet that predominantly employs hard left people. Zero credibility....

 

[KarmaPolice]

Pretty hard to answer questions around here, I guess.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

I’m not buying into the 1619 project which is revisionist history imo.  It’s factually inaccurate, it portrays viewpoints and perspectives as historical facts and it’s produced by a news outlet that predominantly employs hard left people. Zero credibility....

So again we are at that point where you agree that the statement on the website is accurate - factually.  I have to conclude this - as you have now twice been unable to find anything false about the statement.

But, you are convinced the whole thing is rubbish, and has "zero credibility" despite most historians saying that the essays in the 1619 Project are largely factually accurate, and the discrepancies - such as how much slavery played a part in the revolutionary war, have to do with interpretation, rather than factual inaccuracy.

I would suggest you have closed your mind to the entire group of essays without reading any of them, and rely simply on your notion of what you were taught - and this was not it.

 

[stlrams]

So again we are at that point where you agree that the statement on the website is accurate - factually.  I have to conclude this - as you have now twice been unable to find anything false about the statement.

But, you are convinced the whole thing is rubbish, and has "zero credibility" despite most historians saying that the essays in the 1619 Project are largely factually accurate, and the discrepancies - such as how much slavery played a part in the revolutionary war, have to do with interpretation, rather than factual inaccuracy.

I would suggest you have closed your mind to the entire group of essays without reading any of them, and rely simply on your notion of what you were taught - and this was not it.

Yup you’re 100% right supporting a project that’s been debunk by historians. You do you with rose color glasses as it easier when you are sitting at the top. 

 

[FairWarning]

Well let’s try again.   This is the statement:  In August of 1619, a ship appeared on this horizon, near Point Comfort, a coastal port in the English colony of Virginia. It carried more than 20 enslaved Africans, who were sold to the colonists. 
 

I posted the actual original document supporting this statement. What part do you think is false?

IDK if it happened in this case, but blacks bought and sold slaves also.  Does the 1619 Project mention that?  If not, why not?  Those are facts also.  So again, it comes down to the narrative.  If someone today feels they cannot get ahead because the 1619 project, they are not trying.

 

[BladeRunner]

IDK if it happened in this case, but blacks bought and sold slaves also.  Does the 1619 Project mention that?  If not, why not?  Those are facts also.  So again, it comes down to the narrative.  If someone today feels they cannot get ahead because the 1619 project, they are not trying.

EXACTLY.  African tribes routinely captured and sold members of their enemy tribes to the slave traders.  In fact, they also had slaves themselves.  

Before anyone rushes in here and accuses us of racism, we're not saying that Africans were responsible or created the slave trade.  Nor are we excusing slavery.  We're simply saying that you need to teach the truth and all of it - not just the parts that fit your "white man bad" narrative.

Then again, CRT shouldn't be taught at all.  Again, Marxist/Communist ideologies have no business seeing the light of day in a Democracy.

 

[FairWarning]

Slave labor was used in building stadiums for the World Cup in 2022.  I would bet it’s being used in the next China Olympics.  No outrage from the NYT though.  
 

GO TEAM

 

[stlrams]

Slave labor was used in building stadiums for the World Cup in 2022.  I would bet it’s being used in the next China Olympics.  No outrage from the NYT though.  
 

GO TEAM

Slave and child labor being used to build your solar panels, mine cobalt and manufacture iPhones.  Even the administration acknowledges it but pushes green energy so let’s enslave more people and children. 

Go team....