Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
The war in Afghanistan is over: we lost. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
identikit
Footballguy
It's your emphatic statements that are the issue.
The news says the exact opposite.
News across the spectrum.
If you can't see it, I'm not helping you.
timschochet
Footballguy
Go ahead and try me. I wrote that no prognosticator predicted that the Afghan army would collapse within a few days of our withdrawal. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
timschochet
Footballguy
The news has not said the exact opposite. I’ve been reading it pretty closely. There were plenty of warnings that the Afghan Army would collapse “quickly” but the timing is vague. I made the exact same warning 6 years ago on the first post of this thread- go back and look. But quickly doesn’t mean a few days, and that’s the root of the matter. Again if I’m wrong about this one of you guys show me, and I will acknowledge it as “emphatically” as I’ve written this.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
identikit
Footballguy
You're no expert.
I won't let you emphatically decide what the word 'quickly' means.
timschochet
Footballguy
Lol I can’t decide what it means because it’s a vague term. When I used it in the OP I meant a few months or years- I was thinking of the South Vietnam model.
If anyone predicted a few days I think they would have stated so.
identikit
Footballguy
This Army vet was on a lot of networks in the past few days....
Matt Zeller:
"For months, there has been an army of advocates that have been pleading with the Biden administration that this exact scenario was going to transpire," Zeller said. "We had been warning them that the Taliban were on the verge of taking over; that Afghanistan was going to collapse faster than Washington could respond to it."
https://www.wxxinews.org/post/army-veteran-says-us-needs-do-more-help-afghan-interpreters
I'm calling him an expert.
Matt Zeller:
"For months, there has been an army of advocates that have been pleading with the Biden administration that this exact scenario was going to transpire," Zeller said. "We had been warning them that the Taliban were on the verge of taking over; that Afghanistan was going to collapse faster than Washington could respond to it."
https://www.wxxinews.org/post/army-veteran-says-us-needs-do-more-help-afghan-interpreters
I'm calling him an expert.
This seems like a bad reason to count her out for 2024. Hillary Clinton was a bad and disingenuous candidate in 2008, ran a poor campaign in 2008, yet still won the nomination in 2016 (then proceeded to be a bad candidate and run an even worse campaign in the 2016 general election).identikit said:
identikit
Footballguy
You said: ' But quickly doesn’t mean a few days'
You just decided minutes ago.
You cant keep your stories straight.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Honestly, this is semantics. 60 minutes or 60 hours or 60 days. It doesn't matter. There were plenty of people at the upper eschelons of our government advising Biden that the Taliban would take over the country. Prudence dictates removal of civilians and allies first, removal of hardware so it doesn't fall into the hands of the enemy, effective coordination of transfer of control of Bagram Air Base (letting the Afghan gov't know that you are killing the power for whatever reason), then after all this happens, removal of armed forces. He did none of this. He knew there was a non-zero chance that the installed government would collapse and he did nothing to mitigate the risks to Americans and Afghas that helped us. He went on TV and basically laughed off the idea that the Taliban would sweep theough the country even though behind closed doors (and for years prior) the feeling was that the Afghan forces were a joke. You're wrong on this. Whatever your definition of "quickly" means, the order of this pullout was done completely backwards, Americans will die becuase of it and it didn't have to happen that way. Whether its hubris, idiocy, not trusting your supposed advisors, it really doesn't matter. Biden ####ed this up and he did so with galling efficiency.
identikit
Footballguy
FairWarning
Footballguy
Willow trees do not have deep roots.Kal El said:
timschochet
Footballguy
I heard him the other day. He’s the most compelling critic of Biden that I’ve heard on this issue. I mentioned that a few days ago in this thread.
But even Zeller did not predict a few days. Granted he came the closest to it. And if some of his other statements (particularly the accusation that we deliberately betrayed our allies there) turn out to be true I will have to retract my defense of Biden. I’m waiting to learn more.
identikit
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I asked my brother, DW, about his views on this, sort of by way of testing his mental acuity. His statements, paraphrased:
The lesson from the Titanic is that the unsinkable can and does sink, and much faster than experts predict. Be prepared for things to happen quickly. Second lesson from Titanic, women and children first, then servants and men, then the crew. Third lesson, have the lifeboat drill organized so as to not waste the rescue resources available.
The lesson from hurricane evacuations is that there are always some who will ignore the warnings and will then expect rescue from thier own idiocy. The warning is one's rescue. Not heeding the warnings is refusing rescue and after so doing one is not entitled to rescue, even if they are Americans.
Lessons from military retreats in history. Evacuate civilians, and noncombatant friends. Next secure and remove all useful resources for one's enemies. Lastly withdraw military personnel in a fighting retreat.
The gist of all of this, according to him. Evacuate all noncombatant firends and all civillians while the military is in place. Women and children first. Evacuate all useful equipment which is noncombat capable. Wire for destruction all equipment which will not be capable of evacution much like wiring a bridge for demo to cover a retreat. in this case do so with thermite, followed by explosives which can be remotely denotated. Lastly withdarw combat personnel with air coverage, live and drone, covering the final retreat. Leave nothing militarily useful behind. Wave goodbye.
DW does not undersand how this sequence of events was not followed in this instance.
The lesson from the Titanic is that the unsinkable can and does sink, and much faster than experts predict. Be prepared for things to happen quickly. Second lesson from Titanic, women and children first, then servants and men, then the crew. Third lesson, have the lifeboat drill organized so as to not waste the rescue resources available.
The lesson from hurricane evacuations is that there are always some who will ignore the warnings and will then expect rescue from thier own idiocy. The warning is one's rescue. Not heeding the warnings is refusing rescue and after so doing one is not entitled to rescue, even if they are Americans.
Lessons from military retreats in history. Evacuate civilians, and noncombatant friends. Next secure and remove all useful resources for one's enemies. Lastly withdraw military personnel in a fighting retreat.
The gist of all of this, according to him. Evacuate all noncombatant firends and all civillians while the military is in place. Women and children first. Evacuate all useful equipment which is noncombat capable. Wire for destruction all equipment which will not be capable of evacution much like wiring a bridge for demo to cover a retreat. in this case do so with thermite, followed by explosives which can be remotely denotated. Lastly withdarw combat personnel with air coverage, live and drone, covering the final retreat. Leave nothing militarily useful behind. Wave goodbye.
DW does not undersand how this sequence of events was not followed in this instance.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s certainly not semantics. If you think your allies are going to last a while you don’t evacuate all civilians first because that would be demoralizing. You also don’t keep control of airbases because that too would be demoralizing, the pullout was performed logically based on the idea that our allies were going to be in charge of the country for a while.
timschochet
Footballguy
Please tell your brother that I love him and wish him well but this is Monday morning quarterbacking. If you believe that the Afghan army is not going to surrender immediately, and if your goal is to delay the surrender, then you do not act in the sequence he’s describing. You act the way Biden did.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Trump is actually looking pretty good now. Didn't think anyone could do that, but Joe and Kamala rose to the challenge!
Unbelievable.
She didn't really "win" the nomination. The Democratic national committee colluded with her to sabotage her opponents to gift her the nomination.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Demoralizing? FFS we're talking about American lives. You get them out first, period. The idea that you leave some (maybe as many as 10,000?) in harms way to make sure you don't demoralize an army you've been training for 15 years is....insane.
OK, I don't know that I agree with that, but assume for sake of argument that did happen. Does that invalidate my premise that just because Harris isn't a good candidate and ran a poor primary campaign in 2020 that she couldn't be the D nominee in 2024? It literally happened 5 years ago. Why couldn't it happen again?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
He says its Wednesday morning, he played defense and not quarterback, but he will take and appreciates the good wishes. Even in decline he remains a pill.
Last edited by a moderator:
Could it happen? Sure. Is it likely? No. The Dems know she's a horrible candidate. She couldn't even get out of the first round of the playoffs on her own. The only reasons she's VP now have nothing to do with competency or likability.
Last edited by a moderator:
beer 30
Footballguy
Not trying to pick nits and I've never served so take my BS with a grain of salt but I think it's general practice to leave most of the stuff behind because it's cost prohibitive to ship it all back. Yes we try to bring back the high tech stuff but the equipment and people movers usually stay, do they not?
One thing that I've always thought odd though, with the ability to add simple, effective tracking devices why wouldn't we put a slap & track on every vehicle over there for just such an opportunity, knowing that your "allies" are probably turning tail at first shot.
Last thing that I would love to take credit for but saw on Tim Kennedy's Instagram account:
"All of the Taliban leadership is in or heading to Kabul...opportunity knocks"
My original post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, just noting that HRC was a trainwreck in 2008, yet then in 2016... However, as much as I hope it doesn't happen, I could absolutely see the Democrats, who are kind of known for pulling defeat from the jaws of victory, trotting Harris out there in 2024.
Max Power
Footballguy
Yes, we typically leave everything because it isn't cost effective to bring anything back with us. Hard drives are destroyed and anything classified gets burned.
I was literally on the second to last flight out of Iraq in 2011 and my last week in country was walking around the base with a hammer smashing flatscreen tvs, phones, electronics, and medical supplies.
Sand
Footballguy
Let's hope Harris wins the nomination - that paves the way for President Haley.
Maybe then we'll finally have adults in the room.
I tell you, reading comprehension goes downhill fast when I don’t pay attention. They’re widespread but shallow, and super hardy. Totally read that wrong, and I’ll put this L next to the others I’ve collected over the years.
Sand
Footballguy
I was referring to the branches, but I hear you. Lord knows most of my posts are edited because I read them after I post and dive back in to fix something.
The General
Footballguy
That’s a big negative.
Still going on about his stolen election. Who knows how he was getting out of Afghanistan but he negotiated with these dudes, released Taliban for prisons, was saying he would be out by May, etc.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yeah..this notion that any of this makes Trump look good seem odd to me (as does the numerous references here and elsewhere to "at least no mean tweets").
Desert_Power
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
From what I have seen flights are going out. Capability to get something like 1000 out a day. However, the guy who said this also alluded to Taliban being all over the area which may limit the ability for people to reach the airport. Lots of unknowns. Was a TV interview so no link and I am paraphrasing.
jamny
Footballguy
I heard a report yesterday of a flight that could hold around 150 people and it only had like 17 people on it.
Correction...7, not 17
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-military-afghanistan-conflict-kabul-airport-annegret-kramp-karrenbauer/
Last edited by a moderator:
Max Power
Footballguy
They were the first couple days. People getting though every crack in the perimeter. The US has the perimeter under control from the inside of HKIA.
The TB has all the roadways leading into the Airport surrounded and I'd guess it's about a 80% success rate on people still getting into the airport. Plenty of reporting that Taliban is holding people up and not allowing them to continue, but it's hard to really know for sure.
Max Power
Footballguy
You're pretty close for what we know. The goal is to get 3-5K out a day but we are falling behind that goal for a bunch of reasons.
FLASHBACK: In February 2020, Donald Trump discussed how he empowered the Taliban to take over Afghanistan after America's departure
https://twitter.com/MeidasTouch/status/1427394730887811074
"We want to bring our people back home... in Afghanaistan, its time for someone else to do that work, and that will be the Taliban."
The General
Footballguy
That’s crazy. Moving that many people in normal circumstances would present serious challenges. Can’t imagine this #### show.
Is there any place to find reliable information about how many Americans remain in Afghanistan and who they are?
The embassy told everyone to leave in April. Obviously we have essential personnel that didn't have that option. But why were so many unable or unwilling to leave prior to this?
From April 27
"U.S. citizens wishing to depart Afghanistan should leave as soon as possible on available commercial flights."
The embassy told everyone to leave in April. Obviously we have essential personnel that didn't have that option. But why were so many unable or unwilling to leave prior to this?
From April 27
"U.S. citizens wishing to depart Afghanistan should leave as soon as possible on available commercial flights."
Max Power
Footballguy
This is true. Some planes are departing empty.
https://www.politico.eu/article/netherlands-evacuation-afghanistan-airplane-kabul-airport/
Holdups "processing" people is all I'm hearing, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me on the surface.
Max Power
Footballguy
Rumor is the state department had up to 40k submissions for evacuation over the last week. As of right now, there is no way to tell which are viable/legitimate requests and which aren't. Unsure how many are actually Americans or qualify for a special visa.
While the embassy did tell people they should potentially leave country, the embassy also said they would remain open which they were unable to do. Joe Biden was also telling everyone the government has everything under control and they are safe. So it's not all on the people for not getting out. They were mislead.
The General
Footballguy
We’ll be hearing stories of “terrorists” who were able to get on these planes. I’m guessing they are already written.
Yep. To be clear, trying to get info. Not victim blame. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
beer 30
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
Did some digging and some of the "processing" holdup is on the destination country end. They have to be willing to take them temporarily and if the evacuated person doesn't qualify for an American Visa then that person becomes the country they are in's problem. This pre-processing is being done to maintain good will with neighboring countries.
Planes like the german and dutch have no responsibility to anyone other than their country's citizens.
Similar threads
