timschochet
Footballguy
I’ve read summaries in the news, that’s all. They seem to agree with my own thinking on the war since 2015. Please refer to my OP.
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The war in Afghanistan is over: we lost. (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
identikit
Footballguy
I thought aliases were verboten around here?
I guess not....
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't think Biden's trying to be clever. I think he honestly doesn't know what day it is. Not joking -- he seems to have slowed down a lot in just the past few years. I recall him being normal in 2008 for example.
timschochet
Footballguy
If your position is that unreasonable possibilities must be given equal weight to reasonable ones, then I’m very glad you’re not part of any military planning.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Jayrok
Footballguy
Bolded: Of course it is. Anything is possible. You don't remember the Iraqi army surrendering to CNN film crews in the desert in southern Iraq in 1991? Perhaps the Afghan soldiers didn't want to fight. They had international support to hold off the Taliban. Yes, USA wasn't the only nation with troops/support there for the last 20 years.
You are comparing a game where people have lunch afterwards to warfare where people die. You don't think a contingency plan to include various possibilities is prudent in war? You think the Commanders on the ground can just call Timeout! or have a half-time where they can regroup and restart the second half?
I can only speak for myself but I am far from a right wing conservative. Nor am I a liberal or progressive democrat. I do not want another term for Trump. I do not want a term for Harris. I don't normally post in the political threads but after a career in the military, issues like this hit home for me. I apologize if anything I say offends you in any way.
timschochet
Footballguy
Since this is the 4th or 5th time you’ve questioned my honesty, I’ve reported you. I asked that you not be suspended, but that you be instructed to refrain from attacking my integrity. Of course I have no power over what the Mods will or will not do.
Max Power
Footballguy
They absolutely demolish any notion that the Afghan forces are legitimate and can be trusted. That was the reporting from behind the curtain. So what did Milley see over the last two years that changed that in any way?
In the end, it doesn't matter. The house Intelligence committee is calling the Intelligence agencies in to discuss their assessments. So we're going to hear the truth soon enough.
timschochet
Footballguy
You haven’t offended me. I just strongly disagree with you. I accept that there are honest people like you, and @IvanKaramazov, and @Max Power and others in this thread who truly believe that Biden and Milley performed terribly. I accept that this is the strong majority opinion, and at least in this forum I’m pretty much on an island (probably outside this forum too.)
But I also think there are plenty of people here who are ripping on Biden because they’re on the other team.
jamny
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I despised Trump. I pretty much liked Biden -- he's always been a member of "the other party" from my point of view, but I've always felt like he was a good faith country-before-party guy, I was please when Obama selected him as his running mate, and I was happy to vote for him last year. I'm not trying to "equate" Trump and Biden or anything like that. In their prime, these two men were very different people.
That said, I think it's a bad idea to elect very old people to the presidency. Cognitive decline is a real thing, and it's been stunningly on display for 5 years now. We (collectively) simply have to do a better job selecting candidates.
That said, I think it's a bad idea to elect very old people to the presidency. Cognitive decline is a real thing, and it's been stunningly on display for 5 years now. We (collectively) simply have to do a better job selecting candidates.
timschochet
Footballguy
Of course. And if the information revealed contradicts my thought process on this I’ll be the first to admit it.
ETA but the report, based on my understanding, has no bearing on my argument: they thought the Afghans would collapse, they planned that outcome, they didn’t think the collapse would happen in a few days. They thought they had plenty of time. My argument is that this was a reasonable assumption and that it’s unreasonable to hold them responsible for what actually transpired.
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Iraqi Information Minister
Footballguy
Alias? I have been here since April 14, 2003. Since before you learned to paint on cave walls...truly!
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Sadly, we will never hear the truth. Both sides excel at protecting their teammates. The US has major flaws in its government and media. The truth doesn’t get out so that money can be made and power isn’t lost.
Jayrok
Footballguy
Agree. Trump was reckless, infuriating, and his narcissism made him unbearable. Biden used to be a moderate and I didn't have a problem with his political views. I agree that cognitive decline is a real thing. I watched my MIL descend into dementia with Alzheimer's. One of the saddest periods of my life. I'd like to see an age cap on the position of POTUS.
The General
Footballguy
The Q/A going on right now with the Pentagon is answering a ton of questions. Lots of info being presented here.
timschochet
Footballguy
Admittedly it’s very difficult to defend when things go wrong. Winston Churchill was not responsible for the Dardanelles fiasco in 1915, (it was the fault of a couple of cowardly admirals who disobeyed orders) but because Churchill was perceived by the public as its leading proponent, he was blamed and his career was ruined for 25 years. Douglass MacArthur was only partly responsible for when Chinese troops poured over the Yalu River in 1950, but the Democrats needed a scapegoat and they were fearful of his political prospects in 1952, so our greatest general ever was put to pasture.
These things happen. Somebody gets blamed, often unfairly. I think it’s unfair to blame Biden and Milley, but on the other hand I don’t feel sorry for them. They wanted to be in these positions of power. This is sometimes the price (along with unwarranted credit when things go well.) But I think when we discuss these issues we should try to be thoughtful and nuanced, with history as our guide, and so far in my judgment that’s not happening.
These things happen. Somebody gets blamed, often unfairly. I think it’s unfair to blame Biden and Milley, but on the other hand I don’t feel sorry for them. They wanted to be in these positions of power. This is sometimes the price (along with unwarranted credit when things go well.) But I think when we discuss these issues we should try to be thoughtful and nuanced, with history as our guide, and so far in my judgment that’s not happening.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
It’s going very quick and a lot of info is being covered. Very specific questions being asked about the numbers of people they can evacuate and how that process works along with the challenges.
A couple interesting points I picked up so far: we can still make attacks on terrorists in the region, the Pentagon official says travel to the airport is not being restricted by the Taliban.they don’t know how many Americans are still there that want to come out - he deferred to the State Dept but did give some reasoning why this wouldn’t be so easily definable.
If you are near a TV turn it on or get online. They are answering questions nom stop here.
timschochet
Footballguy
Earlier I wrote that Milley and the rest of the team seemed to be doing a great job reacting to a crisis which was not of their making. This news conference is confirming that impression.
identikit
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
And they just wrapped up the Q/A.
Partisans can pick their cable news channel to get the spin response to all answers given
I as just waking up and having coffee but that was a ton of info, will try and YouTube later to watch the beginning which I missed.
And…now there’s a potential bomb in DC. Maybe I will avoid the news today.
Partisans can pick their cable news channel to get the spin response to all answers given
I as just waking up and having coffee but that was a ton of info, will try and YouTube later to watch the beginning which I missed.
And…now there’s a potential bomb in DC. Maybe I will avoid the news today.
beer 30
Footballguy
Think we tried but https://www.businessinsider.com/us-officials-destroyed-afghan-passports-whiel-shutting-kabul-embassy-2021-8
Interested in hearing you unpack this if you feel so inclined. Curious about the motivation for it in your opinion.
But you have to acknowledge that, at a minimum, it should have been thought about. I mean if we are aware enough to think if we stick around it would lead to the collapse of the Afghan Army that births the thought, what else what give rise to the collapse of the Afghan Army and how would we deal with that? That's what they get paid to do.
timschochet
Footballguy
HellToupee
Footballguy
Well they were asking for it. They’ve been told to get out for monthsI think it's very likely that some Americans are going to be left behind.
identikit
Footballguy
Well they were asking for it. They’ve been told to get out for months
I'd have been gonezo....
timschochet
Footballguy
This seems to be a response to something I posted earlier. I never wrote “well they were asking for it” nor would I imply anything so awful. I pointed out that Americans have been urged to leave for months to partly explain why it’s so difficult to get them all out now. Nonetheless I think they WILL all get out:Well they were asking for it. They’ve been told to get out for months
Im so sick of being misquoted around here so that some folks can have their fun.
The General
Footballguy
I was traveling yesterday and didn’t follow much news. But I thought this was pretty informative not necessarily sad.
I guess I am looking at this from Afghanistan was going to return to Taliban (this new version that has a PR team apparently now) the moment we left. From my perspective we should have left years ago so getting out is long over due.
How we didn’t realize it was going to collapse this quickly will be something that we should try to learn from - how was our IC and military so off on this. I suspect politics, blame game will cloud much of what we the public see but hopefully lessons can be learned by people who do this job.
Maybe it’s just as easy as that region is unsolvable.
But this is the crux of this tragedy. That there was zero will to fight. We were essentially just paying these people off and that the collapse is was inevitable.
There does seem to be a process in place to get people out though, they are moving people out. I believe there was an 8/31 deadline at which the Taliban said they won’t work with us anymore on safe passage. If that holds…we’ll that sounds bad.
timschochet
Footballguy
So would I if I had written anything so awful. Please stop this. You and @HellToupeehave all of my ACTUAL posts, they’re not hard to find. If you take issue with something I wrote, quote me.
Max Power
Footballguy
I just don't think we had a colossal intelligence failure across the board. Diving into the numbers of the Afghan security forces we can see how they were oversold. It is clear as day.
Then we make poor decisions to pull American contractors who maintained the equipment we gave them out of country to further reduce their capabilities.
Now that same equipment is being sold and taken to neighboring countries and we're not doing anything about it.
We wont recognize the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan and we continue to tough talk them, but then we let them walk all over us and do whatever they want. Something stinks here...
The General
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I don't recall him putting "tim" in his post. Looks like we are back to every single thread being about you repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over.
beer 30
Footballguy
You're not bombing Kabul. That's your main focus right now. Get your people then get out.
Unleash the 82nd to do what they do and go get Americans OR unleash the 82nd to go take Bagram back and then go get Americans. At some point this will become a staring contest as Americans get more desperate or the Taliban make the mistake of kidnapping or shooting an American. The UK & the French went out and got their people, we should too.
The alternative is to negotiate a corridor to the airport for Americans to use but you're giving even more up to secure that. The people in charge of this are making one mistake after another and all the while they are piling up upon one another. There will be a trigger pulled soon, there doesn't need to be unless the Taliban really do want to fight which I don't think they do at this point. You have your victory against the Great Satan, revel in it and let them go peacefully.
timschochet
Footballguy
Since I’m the only person in this thread that made that specific argument (Americans were asked to leave months earlier) I am quite sure he was referring to me.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Don’t be so presumptuous , not everything is about you.I understand your pomposity & at times overbearing posting style but trust me when I said it’s not all about you.
timschochet
Footballguy
Thank you.
In your post you were obviously mocking somebody here, and falsely implying they wrote something they didn’t. NOBODY here wrote “well they were asking for it.” Whether that was directed towards me or somebody else, it’s still really awful, and unless you can produce a direct quote to the contrary, you should apologize.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
The government must have a general number of who and how many Americans are in Afghanistan. Passport records and people that registered with the State dept when travelling abroad, etc. Those are electronic records and not paper lists that get torn up by local officials. I guess I assume there is some tracking of "most" people going into Afghanistan since 9/11.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
No offense, but I think our military leaders should be able to be a little more precise than you. They should be "planning for all contingencies" (their words) from when we announce we will be withdrawing to the time we shut down the embassy and actually start leaving to after we leave. If they can't think of all the contingencies then let's get people in there that will. That is there job.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I wish that my brother would not post on my account. I don't wish to particpate in public discussions as I no longer have the capacity to do so cogently. Writing out my thoughts is a chore for me and once written they should be highly suspect given my memory and intellectual capacity. That said, having been drawn in, I would care to elaborate.
I expect my leaders to expect the unexpected. It is the height of hubris to do otherwise. Sometimes the unsinkable sinks. Sometimes the Viet Cong do attack on Tet. Sometimes the Batistas get overwhelmed suddenly by a hundred or so rebels lead by Castro and Gueverra. Sometimes the people do not rise to support your invasions or revolutions at your Bay of Pigs and sometimes, maybe they do. Sometimes leaders, whether they sit on the Peacock Throne or preside in Manilla or Santiago do not enjoy the support of their own people who cannot wait for them to be removed from power. The Art of War taught us long ago to expect and prepare for contingencies. Sometimes well-trained and motivated though out-numbered armies kick the crap out of Egyptians trying to roll tanks across the Sinai. Reliance on conclusions reached out of hubris to ignore established protocols for action, be it responding to natural disasters or to retreats in war zones, invites getting knocked to one's petard and being disoriented if and when one gets back to their feet. The Administation in this case acted out of hubris. They ignored established protocols. They got knocked on their collective petards. They were guilty of the cardinal sin of hubris.
They can overcome their sins, their shortcomings, but will do so more effectively if they acknowlege their errors and learn from them moving forward. Maybe in the present instance this was nothing more than a generational reminder of that old lesson. I, myself, forget lessons I thought were thoroughly learned.
Generals, in particular, educated at War Colleges, ought to know this lesson. Patton's push for a mechanized warfare unit was long ignored. MacArther's warnings on the vulnerabilities in the Pacific were ignored. Gen. Billy Mitchell warned of the vulnerability of Pearl Harbor to torpedo attack from the air decades before our hubris about how war would be announced came to haunt us. What were the lessons there but to be on guard against our own hubris. I bet George Armstrong Custer wishes he did not fall into the trap presented by hubris.
Anyhow, as I am not capable of sustaining discussion I apologize for my presence. Good wishes to you all, well most of you all, no, on reflection to you all.
I expect my leaders to expect the unexpected. It is the height of hubris to do otherwise. Sometimes the unsinkable sinks. Sometimes the Viet Cong do attack on Tet. Sometimes the Batistas get overwhelmed suddenly by a hundred or so rebels lead by Castro and Gueverra. Sometimes the people do not rise to support your invasions or revolutions at your Bay of Pigs and sometimes, maybe they do. Sometimes leaders, whether they sit on the Peacock Throne or preside in Manilla or Santiago do not enjoy the support of their own people who cannot wait for them to be removed from power. The Art of War taught us long ago to expect and prepare for contingencies. Sometimes well-trained and motivated though out-numbered armies kick the crap out of Egyptians trying to roll tanks across the Sinai. Reliance on conclusions reached out of hubris to ignore established protocols for action, be it responding to natural disasters or to retreats in war zones, invites getting knocked to one's petard and being disoriented if and when one gets back to their feet. The Administation in this case acted out of hubris. They ignored established protocols. They got knocked on their collective petards. They were guilty of the cardinal sin of hubris.
They can overcome their sins, their shortcomings, but will do so more effectively if they acknowlege their errors and learn from them moving forward. Maybe in the present instance this was nothing more than a generational reminder of that old lesson. I, myself, forget lessons I thought were thoroughly learned.
Generals, in particular, educated at War Colleges, ought to know this lesson. Patton's push for a mechanized warfare unit was long ignored. MacArther's warnings on the vulnerabilities in the Pacific were ignored. Gen. Billy Mitchell warned of the vulnerability of Pearl Harbor to torpedo attack from the air decades before our hubris about how war would be announced came to haunt us. What were the lessons there but to be on guard against our own hubris. I bet George Armstrong Custer wishes he did not fall into the trap presented by hubris.
Anyhow, as I am not capable of sustaining discussion I apologize for my presence. Good wishes to you all, well most of you all, no, on reflection to you all.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Of course they should be more precise than me but I still don’t think this logic makes much sense.
But I’ll tell you what: if you can find a competent high up general in our military who insisted beforehand that we be prepared for the possibility that Afghanistan would collapse in 11 days, I will gladly agree to replace General Milley with that person.
Wasn't this going to happen regardless, though? That is, if you agree with the overarching idea of withdrawal but oppose the execution (a position I find perfectly reasonable, and the one I think you have personally espoused), I have to imagine that you would not have expected us to take back the military equipment we provided to the Afghan military?
The General
Footballguy
This was asked in the morning press conference. The Pentagon said they could not answer and said the State Dept would better answer this. They did allude to some challenges that they were aware of in arriving at a number.
It is wild to me that people living there with the ability to leave also did not see this collapse coming. Would be very interested to hear from more people who lived there and are now out talking about what it was like there these last few months.
Max Power
Footballguy
potentially. Another alternative is another country uses that equipment against the US in a future conflict. It's like we're keeping our people out of harms way today, so that things will be more dangerous for future generations. But hey, that is what Biden wants.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
Yes, even after Trump's agreement and intent to withdraw, people there knew this was coming.
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HellToupee
Footballguy
Apologize to who? Are you sucking back on grandpa’s old cough medicine?It appears you are sporting for a fight with a few different posters this morning. I'm not indulging in any of your silliness after this.
Max Power
Footballguy
It potentially could have fallen into the wrong hands over time. We left it assuming one thing and we're clearly getting another.
It's all sitting there on parking aprons right now, so we can easily destroy most of it. Instead we're watching the Taliban sell it to our adversaries. It is kind of shocking actually.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
They were the ones that said they "considered all contingencies". Obviously they didn't and you are saying no one could have.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
At some point if you leave, you leave. It is remarkable the the smallest presence of US soldiers was seemingly keeping this whole thing together. I have read that the peace deal was a date that gave the Taliban something to wait out til and without that perhaps this may have escalated back to more US troops being needed.
As far as leaving equipment behind. Is this equipment we left with the Afghans and they just gave it up? Stuff we left at bases unattended? If it is the former what is the alternative there. We can’t take it from them. If we left stuff unattended that and just abandoned it that is incredibly stupid.
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