The War in Gaza (1 Viewer)

[Stinger Ray]

Just got into a big argument with my dad about this subject. My father is a Holocaust survivor. To him, Israel can do nothing wrong, the Palestinians are led by a bunch of murderers, and anyone critical of Israel is deluded (me) or anti-Semitic (most other non-Jewish critics.)

I shouldn't have argued with my dad. He sees this issue emotionally and is unable to look at it any other way.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Just got into a big argument with my dad about this subject. My father is a Holocaust survivor. To him, Israel can do nothing wrong, the Palestinians are led by a bunch of murderers, and anyone critical of Israel is deluded (me) or anti-Semitic (most other non-Jewish critics.)

I shouldn't have argued with my dad. He sees this issue emotionally and is unable to look at it any other way.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Maybe - but on this issue, tim has been willing to explore alternative ideas, and while he firmly believes Israel wants to do the right thing, he does recognize that this course of action may not get the desired results.

Tim is lots of things, opinionated is certainly one of them, but to his credit (at least in my eyes) he is willing to reconsider a position if given reason to do so - not exactly the way he is describing his dad, who I suspect is like most elderly jews - they have a very different view on the world than I have, so while I may not agree with their perspective at all times, I can respect it, and try to understand it.

I also think Tim sees a distinction between anti-Israel stances, and anti-Semitic stances - the two are not the same.

 

[timschochet]

Just got into a big argument with my dad about this subject. My father is a Holocaust survivor. To him, Israel can do nothing wrong, the Palestinians are led by a bunch of murderers, and anyone critical of Israel is deluded (me) or anti-Semitic (most other non-Jewish critics.)

I shouldn't have argued with my dad. He sees this issue emotionally and is unable to look at it any other way.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Maybe - but on this issue, tim has been willing to explore alternative ideas, and while he firmly believes Israel wants to do the right thing, he does recognize that this course of action may not get the desired results.

Tim is lots of things, opinionated is certainly one of them, but to his credit (at least in my eyes) he is willing to reconsider a position if given reason to do so - not exactly the way he is describing his dad, who I suspect is like most elderly jews - they have a very different view on the world than I have, so while I may not agree with their perspective at all times, I can respect it, and try to understand it.

I also think Tim sees a distinction between anti-Israel stances, and anti-Semitic stances - the two are not the same.

Thanks, but please don't bother trying to defend me to Stinger Ray- he is another of these one-note guys here and pretty much incapable of a nuanced discussion (on this or any other issue.)

 

[[icon]]

Tim is lots of things, opinionated is certainly one of them, but to his credit (at least in my eyes) he is willing to reconsider a position if given reason to do so

Yep. Props to Tim on that.

 

[RCon]

Tim is lots of things, opinionated is certainly one of them, but to his credit (at least in my eyes) he is willing to reconsider a position if given reason to do so

Yep. Props to Tim on that.

Some of his positions, yes. Others he has such a visceral, emotional attachment that he not only refuses to consider any other position, he also sees facts and data supporting his position where they don't exist (e.g. more than once he's posted articles claiming they support his position, when they in fact do exactly the opposite). Illegal immigration and "institutionalized racism" come to mind.

 

[timschochet]

Tim is lots of things, opinionated is certainly one of them, but to his credit (at least in my eyes) he is willing to reconsider a position if given reason to do so

Yep. Props to Tim on that.

Some of his positions, yes. Others he has such a visceral, emotional attachment that he not only refuses to consider any other position, he also sees facts and data supporting his position where they don't exist (e.g. more than once he's posted articles claiming they support his position, when they in fact do exactly the opposite). Illegal immigration and "institutionalized racism" come to mind.

Not going to derail the thread over this , but I would suggest that when it comes to illegal immigration, my opponents are far more emotional than I am.

 

[jonessed]

Tim is lots of things, opinionated is certainly one of them, but to his credit (at least in my eyes) he is willing to reconsider a position if given reason to do so

Yep. Props to Tim on that.

Some of his positions, yes. Others he has such a visceral, emotional attachment that he not only refuses to consider any other position, he also sees facts and data supporting his position where they don't exist (e.g. more than once he's posted articles claiming they support his position, when they in fact do exactly the opposite). Illegal immigration and "institutionalized racism" come to mind.

Not going to derail the thread over this , but I would suggest that when it comes to illegal immigration, my opponents are far more emotional than I am.

I have no doubt that you believe that.

 

[quickhands]

Koya, I'm not Pollyanna at all. Show me an endgame in which Hamas is replaced with either moderate Palestinians or radical ones who are incapable of harming Israel and I'll be all for that, even if many civilians are killed as a result.

But this never-ending spiral in which Israel spends millions, kills lots of innocent people, loses its moral authority, and the only result is MORE Hamas, MORE radicalization of the Palestinian people, LESS chance of a peaceful

accord than ever- and I shake my head and wonder what is the ####### point of it all?

The point is "never again". The Israelis will go on kicking "your" ### as long and as many times as they have to.Hamas could have peace, they don't want it. Until the people who live in Gaza care more about wiping jews out of the middle east than peace. Then their buildings are gonna keep getting smashed. As long as they are willing to sacrifice their children then it's not going to end.

Israel playing is playing the incremental game. It's gonna go on for years and years.

First off, as evil as Hamas are, they are not the Nazis, and the Israelis are not the defenseless Jews of Europe, and this "Never Again" analogy doesn't apply here.Second, you and others that take this line of reasoning continue to ignore the reality of the situation. The Palestinians in Gaza feel themselves hopeless. There is very little economy. There is no trade. There is no chance of a better future. Israel controls the borders and controls everything and everyone that comes in and out of Gaza. And now Israel is currently destroying what little there is left in Gaza. The other main Palestinian area, the West Bank, is criss-crossed with barbed wire, Israeli troops, Israeli settlements.

Your response to this may be that none of this is Israel's fault- the Palestinians brought it all upon themselves. And that's at least partially true. But some of it IS Israel's fault. Israel has made numerous errors in judgment over the years, and they have also done some deliberate very bad things. But the point is that whoever the blame goes to, we have a situation where the Palestinian people feel NO HOPE. And until that feeling is resolved, I expect them to continue to attempt to terrorize Israel, no matter what force Israel uses in response.

I have no problem with what you are saying about the Palestinian's. You are right, the have little hope. And the Israelis have screwed up in the past.

What is the way forward for the Palestinian's? Whenever the Israelis extent a hand it's slapped away or bloodied. Neither Hamas or the PA aren't trustworthy.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Just got into a big argument with my dad about this subject. My father is a Holocaust survivor. To him, Israel can do nothing wrong, the Palestinians are led by a bunch of murderers, and anyone critical of Israel is deluded (me) or anti-Semitic (most other non-Jewish critics.)

I shouldn't have argued with my dad. He sees this issue emotionally and is unable to look at it any other way.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Maybe - but on this issue, tim has been willing to explore alternative ideas, and while he firmly believes Israel wants to do the right thing, he does recognize that this course of action may not get the desired results.

Tim is lots of things, opinionated is certainly one of them, but to his credit (at least in my eyes) he is willing to reconsider a position if given reason to do so - not exactly the way he is describing his dad, who I suspect is like most elderly jews - they have a very different view on the world than I have, so while I may not agree with their perspective at all times, I can respect it, and try to understand it.

I also think Tim sees a distinction between anti-Israel stances, and anti-Semitic stances - the two are not the same.

Thanks, but please don't bother trying to defend me to Stinger Ray- he is another of these one-note guys here and pretty much incapable of a nuanced discussion (on this or any other issue.)

Whatever...my comment about you being like your dad isn't about this issue. It's about how you let your emotions get the best of you time and again on certain topics just like you said your dad does on this.

 

[quickhands]

Just got into a big argument with my dad about this subject. My father is a Holocaust survivor. To him, Israel can do nothing wrong, the Palestinians are led by a bunch of murderers, and anyone critical of Israel is deluded (me) or anti-Semitic (most other non-Jewish critics.)

I shouldn't have argued with my dad. He sees this issue emotionally and is unable to look at it any other way.

Your dad shouldn't know your opinion in this matter. You should just agree with him.

Dont you get enough here? Just pretend you are me when with your dad says something you disagree with just nod.

 

[Gravity]

I want Israel to withdraw its forces guarding the ports of Gaza and withdraw all troops from Gaza. I want Israel to withdraw its settlements from the West Bank and it's troops from the West Bank. I want Israel to conclude a trade agreent with the Palestinian Authority. And I want Israel to turn over control of any Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem to the United Nations.Those are my initial proposals. They are subject to change based on events.

Tim, I truly appreciate open viewpoints on this issue that is clearly so polarizing for many.

That said, allow me to offer an alternative proposal that I think may resolve the conflict.

------

I propose that Israel unilaterally withdraw from Gaza. I propose they leave the hundred million dollar agricultural infrastructure intact so the Gazans can build up their economy. I propose Israel continue to provide water, gas, and electricity to Gaza. Additionally, the border will be partially open for goods and trade and all items not related to weapons or terrorism. Additionally, other items such as sea and air ports will be discussed in the near future as well.

I propose Israel request only one thing in return: do not turn Gaza into a terrorist launching pad.

-----

Can we all agree this is a fair way to start a comprehensive peace proposal?

 

[timschochet]

I want Israel to withdraw its forces guarding the ports of Gaza and withdraw all troops from Gaza. I want Israel to withdraw its settlements from the West Bank and it's troops from the West Bank. I want Israel to conclude a trade agreent with the Palestinian Authority. And I want Israel to turn over control of any Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem to the United Nations.

Those are my initial proposals. They are subject to change based on events.

Tim, I truly appreciate open viewpoints on this issue that is clearly so polarizing for many.

That said, allow me to offer an alternative proposal that I think may resolve the conflict.

------

I propose that Israel unilaterally withdraw from Gaza. I propose they leave the hundred million dollar agricultural infrastructure intact so the Gazans can build up their economy. I propose Israel continue to provide water, gas, and electricity to Gaza. Additionally, the border will be partially open for goods and trade and all items not related to weapons or terrorism. Additionally, other items such as sea and air ports will be discussed in the near future as well.

I propose Israel request only one thing in return: do not turn Gaza into a terrorist launching pad.

-----

Can we all agree this is a fair way to start a comprehensive peace proposal?

Of course it was what Israel thought when they did all that 9 years ago. And Hamas is evil; rational people would have accepted this and built from it. But the radicalization and hopelessness will continue until they have a state of their own, not simply territory surrounded by a military that controls what goes in and out and who goes in and out. And so it can't be Gaza alone; it has to be Gaza AND the West Bank AND part of Jerusalem, or there will never peace, and eventually, Israel will either be overwhelmed and destroyed, or forced to give up its moral authority (the latter is already happening). Those two alternatives are intolerable to me.

 

[Gravity]

Understood.

I was just pointing out why your proposal will never happen under current circumstances. Given the Gaza withdrawal failure there is 0 chance Israel will further make major concessions until Gaza is demilitarized/rid of Hamas.

 

[timschochet]

Understood.

I was just pointing out why your proposal will never happen under current circumstances. Given the Gaza withdrawal failure there is 0 chance Israel will further make major concessions until Gaza is demilitarized/rid of Hamas.

I don't believe that Gaza will ever be rid of Hamas.

 

[cstu]

What is the way forward for the Palestinian's? Whenever the Israelis extent a hand it's slapped away or bloodied. Neither Hamas or the PA aren't trustworthy.

Two ways:

- Hamas gives up power ( ) and a Ghandi-like leader shows up

- Palestinians all convert to Judaism

 

[whitem0nkey]

interesting 20 minute piece on the real estate market in Gaza

this guys follows some families and a realest dealer.

ETA: from 2013

 

[msommer]

Man, these ceasefires are killing this thread

 

[Koya]

Just got into a big argument with my dad about this subject. My father is a Holocaust survivor. To him, Israel can do nothing wrong, the Palestinians are led by a bunch of murderers, and anyone critical of Israel is deluded (me) or anti-Semitic (most other non-Jewish critics.)

I shouldn't have argued with my dad. He sees this issue emotionally and is unable to look at it any other way.

I honestly have no idea how you legitimately win this argument with your Dad. He speaks from experience, you speak from idealism.

I think maybe it's the world that forgets its experiences. Never forget.

While I understand where you come from Saints, my mother is a survivor and I know others who are, who are hardly blind to the wrongs that Israel has committed. Now, perhaps there is a better recognition of what it means to live in a world that has no Israel - it's 5,000 fairly tumultuous years of being hate, ostracized, singled out , murdered. That context provides many of us with a "it's better to overprotect than under protect" because should Israel win 999 wars, it only takes one outcome in the other direction and we would be slaughtered and wiped into the sea (by the very words of those who claim to be our enemy).

That said, to be overly hardened by ones own experience, to the extent where some I know have become what they claim to hate, does no one any good. Certainly not Israel nor my fellow Jews.

My uncle is an irrational Zionist. Honestly, he is small minded and racist. It's pretty simple. And you can't hide behind the fact that he fought in WW2 to change that harsh reality. It's just he's a racist that's my race. But he can not be reasoned with, as the extremists on all sides can not - they are of the same vain and cloth.

The context of the Holocaust is important to understand and remember. As is the fact that the Jordanian people now called Palestinians were essentially offered most of the land (and the better land) they is now Israel and they refused. Instead, all Arab nations rallied behind their brothers to wipe the Pig Jews into the sea.

And when, by grace of god, Israel somehow won, what did all those nations do for their brothers? Abandoned them, left them to die, and then blamed the Israelis, the Jews and the West for the plight of a peoples who were Jordanian until they were forced to be refugees and become the saddest plight, the Palestinian.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Just got into a big argument with my dad about this subject. My father is a Holocaust survivor. To him, Israel can do nothing wrong, the Palestinians are led by a bunch of murderers, and anyone critical of Israel is deluded (me) or anti-Semitic (most other non-Jewish critics.)

I shouldn't have argued with my dad. He sees this issue emotionally and is unable to look at it any other way.

I honestly have no idea how you legitimately win this argument with your Dad. He speaks from experience, you speak from idealism.

I think maybe it's the world that forgets its experiences. Never forget.

While I understand where you come from Saints, my mother is a survivor and I know others who are, who are hardly blind to the wrongs that Israel has committed. Now, perhaps there is a better recognition of what it means to live in a world that has no Israel - it's 5,000 fairly tumultuous years of being hate, ostracized, singled out , murdered. That context provides many of us with a "it's better to overprotect than under protect" because should Israel win 999 wars, it only takes one outcome in the other direction and we would be slaughtered and wiped into the sea (by the very words of those who claim to be our enemy).

That said, to be overly hardened by ones own experience, to the extent where some I know have become what they claim to hate, does no one any good. Certainly not Israel nor my fellow Jews.

My uncle is an irrational Zionist. Honestly, he is small minded and racist. It's pretty simple. And you can't hide behind the fact that he fought in WW2 to change that harsh reality. It's just he's a racist that's my race. But he can not be reasoned with, as the extremists on all sides can not - they are of the same vain and cloth.

The context of the Holocaust is important to understand and remember. As is the fact that the Jordanian people now called Palestinians were essentially offered most of the land (and the better land) they is now Israel and they refused. Instead, all Arab nations rallied behind their brothers to wipe the Pig Jews into the sea.

And when, by grace of god, Israel somehow won, what did all those nations do for their brothers? Abandoned them, left them to die, and then blamed the Israelis, the Jews and the West for the plight of a peoples who were Jordanian until they were forced to be refugees and become the saddest plight, the Palestinian.

I deleted my original comment because I thought it wasn't my place. And your post is beautifully stated.

My father was a WW2 vet, I had multiple uncles who saw hard action in Europe and the Pacific. I often saw things differently. And I guess I was trying to say when you're in that conversation (whatever it may be) you can never, ever prevail. There was unbelievable death and horror such that most people cannot imagine today. What can you say in return? - They knew, they saw, they just ask that we remember what was done and why, and that their efforts not be in vain, and the facts of how truly horrible and inhumane man can be, and the bravery in the face of that, and to pass that on. When I have been in that conversation I just give those older folks my respect and love and I listen to them, I do not battle. It does not mean you have to conform your thoughts and conclusions and abandon hope for the new world or that we can change as a human race, just remember, that's a legacy. It's our own destiny to determine what to do with it.

 

[Gravity]

Good posts guys. To me, one of the major issues is that most people know more about the Kardashians then the recent history of the middle east. They don't realize how complicated it is and so we get Penelope Cruz busting Israel's balls about genocide.

 

[msommer]

And as the ceasefire was extended: rockets and airstrikes.

Guess someone didn't get the memo...

 

[Chaz McNulty]

How about we divide Gaza up into 5 arbitrary areas. Every year that Israel does not receive an attack they withdraw from an area. If they are attacked, then they re-occupy an area.

We will be able to see if the Palestine government can control its people.

 

[msommer]

How about we divide Gaza up into 5 arbitrary areas. Every year that Israel does not receive an attack they withdraw from an area. If they are attacked, then they re-occupy an area.

We will be able to see if the Palestine government can control its people.

Which one?

 

[Fennis]

Asharq Al-Awsat published this opinion piece. Not sure I agree, but an interesting read none the less. And very telling to come from a Saudi funded and run (albeit based in London) paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asharq_Al-Awsat

http://www.aawsat.net/2014/08/article55335312

Opinion: No Longer an Arab–Israeli Conflict

The war in Gaza is the second stage of a process of change regarding the nature of what used to be called “the Arab–Israeli conflict.” The first stage was the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah in 2006, in which Iran, a non-Arab state, fought Israel in a proxy war via Hezbollah. The weapons, financing and training of Hezbollah is Iranian. In the recent conflict Iran has also backed both Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, as well as the leaders of both organizations, Khaled Mishal and Ramadan Shalah, who have consulted closely with Tehran. While Iran was the main player in the war of 2006, what is new this time around is that Turkey has been brought in, through an alliance with Qatar, as political backup for Hamas and as the regional sponsor of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The nature of the conflict has also changed from conventional warfare, where the armies of opposing states face each other on the battlefied, to asymmetrical warfare, where armies fight guerrilla battles against political movements in cities. The conflict that was between Arab states against Israel, and led to wars in 1948, 1967, and 1973, with the outcome of the latter leading to peace between Egypt and Israel, is no longer a reality. Israel’s wars now are with movements such as Hezbollah and Hamas, not with Arab states, and the patrons of these movements—Iran and Turkey—are obviously non-Arab.

The relative disengagement of Arab states and the anti-Hamas rhetoric in the Arab, and especially the Egyptian, media suggest a sea-change in public perception of the conflict throughout the Arab world. The anti-Turkey, anti-Iran, anti-Hamas, anti-Qatar, and anti-Brotherhood rhetoric makes the current conflict look like an Israel/Hamas–Turkey–Iran–Qatar one, with the rest of the Arab world’s support existing only on Twitter and other social media forums.

Qatar, the only Arab country actively supporting Hamas, has been isolated from the rest of the Gulf states for the last three months, after Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Bahrain withdrew their ambassadors from Doha. Thus what used to be called an Arab–Israeli conflict is no more. What does this mean and what are its implications for wider regional stability?

In the past, Israel’s strategy has been to narrow the scope of the conflict and downscale it from an Arab–Israeli conflict to a Palestinian–Israeli conflict. In fact, the strategy looked like it was working until the recent Gaza war. Israel managed not only to make it a Palestinian–Israeli conflict, but also a war against only one faction of the Palestinian movement, Hamas, on the narrowest piece of Palestinian territory, Gaza. But the involvement of both Turkey and Iran has had the opposite effect. The conflict has been widened and regionalized rather than reduced as Israel intended.

The conflict in now regionalized at the geopolitical level, with Iran and Turkey directly involved through their backing Hezbollah and Hamas respectively. The conflict has also become religious in nature rather than ethnic, especially after the Israeli government insisted on the Jewish identity of their state. The conflict has also become more sectarian on the Arab side due to the new rift within Islam between Shi’ite and Sunni Muslims.

The involvement of moderate Sunni Arab states is one of nothing more than providing a forum for negotiation between Israel and the Palestinians in Cairo, or in the case of the Gulf states, providing aid for reconstructing Gaza or southern Lebanon.

Out of this, there is some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that the widening of the conflict has contributed to greater instability across the region. The recent Gaza war made Hamas, not the PLO, the darling of the radical Arab street, in much the same way that the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah made Hassan Nasrallah an Arab hero. This empowers political movements rather than states, and fuels greater violence throughout the region. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria is just the most recent manifestation.

The good news, however, is that if Israel wants to strike a grand deal with the Arabs, now is the time to do it. Arab states are in their weakest political positions for a long time, and given their internal political upheavals they are ready to sign a comprehensive deal. The biggest obstacle here, however, is the Israeli side. Can Israel produce a Sadat-like figure willing to make a daring move in the same way the late Egyptian president did, by going to Cairo or Riyadh and signing a comprehensive deal? Perhaps an even more daring move would be to go to Tehran. The ball is firmly in Israel’s court now

 

[higgins]

Israeli security service says it arrested Hamas operatives, thwarted West Bank coup attempt

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's Shin Bet security service says it has thwarted a Hamas coup attempt in the West Bank, though it provided few details.

The service says that it arrested more than 90 Hamas operatives in an alleged plot to carry out attacks against Jews and wrest control from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

It says it also confiscated weapons and more than $170,000. It says the plot was orchestrated by a senior Hamas official based in Turkey and that local officials were aware.

Hamas officials had no immediate comment to the claim.

Hamas overtook the Gaza Strip in 2007 from forces loyal to Abbas. It is currently negotiating to Cairo over a cease-fire to formally end the Gaza war.

I guess desperate times for Hamas calls for desperate measures/hail mary passes. Nice job in preventing this...

 

[Sinn Fein]

RISHON LEZION Israel - Israeli police on Sunday blocked more than 200 far-right Israeli protesters from rushing guests at a wedding of a Jewish woman and Muslim man as they shouted "death to the Arabs" in a sign of tensions stoked by the Gaza war. Several dozen police formed human chains to keep the protesters from the wedding hall's gates and chased after many who defied them. Four protesters were arrested.

 

[Gravity]

RISHON LEZION Israel - Israeli police on Sunday blocked more than 200 far-right Israeli protesters from rushing guests at a wedding of a Jewish woman and Muslim man as they shouted "death to the Arabs" in a sign of tensions stoked by the Gaza war. Several dozen police formed human chains to keep the protesters from the wedding hall's gates and chased after many who defied them. Four protesters were arrested.

Sinn - you see, this is how you lose legitimacy in this debate.

What is the point of this post? Yeah, there are extremists in Israel. And Missouri. And everywhere else in the world. Why are you pointing out specific events of a handful of Israelis? Its almost as if, hmmmm, you are trying to portray Israel as poorly as possible... Sadly, this is just negative bias. Nothing else.

Additionally, while you focus on a handful of extremists, I think it is HUGELY telling how the police actually protected the couple and allowed this to happen.

This couple in Gaza would likely be dead by now. A public event like this would turn into a lynching.

Israel is the only country in the middle east where this wedding could actually take place in public. And the government even sanctions it with protective forces.

Your own attempt to portray Israel in a negative light reveals just the opposite about it.

 

[msommer]

Rockets fall on Beersheva and the Israeli PM authorizes more strikes against Gaza. Breaking on BBC

 

[msommer]

Rockets fall on Beersheva and the Israeli PM authorizes more strikes against Gaza. Breaking on BBC

And the negotiations for a truce are over as Israel withdraws

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Israeli security service says it arrested Hamas operatives, thwarted West Bank coup attempt

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's Shin Bet security service says it has thwarted a Hamas coup attempt in the West Bank, though it provided few details.

The service says that it arrested more than 90 Hamas operatives in an alleged plot to carry out attacks against Jews and wrest control from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

It says it also confiscated weapons and more than $170,000. It says the plot was orchestrated by a senior Hamas official based in Turkey and that local officials were aware.

Hamas officials had no immediate comment to the claim.

Hamas overtook the Gaza Strip in 2007 from forces loyal to Abbas. It is currently negotiating to Cairo over a cease-fire to formally end the Gaza war.

I guess desperate times for Hamas calls for desperate measures/hail mary passes. Nice job in preventing this...

I'd say this is pretty big news.

 

[lod01]

Israeli Strike Kills Wife, Daughter of Hamas Military Leader.

That's going to cause a ramp up in fighting.

 

[msommer]

Israeli Strike Kills Wife, Daughter of Hamas Military Leader.

That's going to cause a ramp up in fighting.

Israel kills three Hamas commanders

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28876821

 

[higgins]

This could be interpreted as old news since many always had suspicions that Hamas was the instigator but this was possibly their first admission as such...

Senior Hamas official says group abducted Israeli teensRAMALLAH West Bank (Reuters) - A top Hamas official said members of his militant group kidnapped three Israeli teenagers whose deaths in June provoked a spiral of violence that led to the war in Gaza, the first acknowledgement of the movement's involvement.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, has up to now refused to confirm or deny Israeli accusations that it masterminded the abduction and killing of the three young men, one of them a joint U.S.-Israeli citizen, in Hebron.

"There was much speculation about this operation, some said it was a conspiracy," Saleh al-Arouri told delegates at the International Union of Islamic Scholars in Istanbul on Wednesday, according to a recording of the meeting posted online by organizers.

"The popular will was exercised throughout our occupied land, and culminated in the heroic operation by the Qassam Brigades in imprisoning the three settlers in Hebron," he said, referring to Hamas's armed wing.

"This was an operation from your brothers in Qassam undertaken to aid their brothers on hunger strike in (Israeli) prisons," he added.

Jewish seminary students Eyal Yifrach, 19, and Gilad Shaer and Naftali Fraenkel, both 16, were abducted while hitchhiking in the Israeli occupied West Bank on June 12 and killed.

Israel promptly accused Hamas, which is based in Gaza but has a presence in the West Bank, of masterminding the attack and began a crackdown on the group in which over a thousand Palestinians were arrested.

Tensions already ran deep in the West Bank after weeks of a mass hunger strike by Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, who is in exile in Qatar, denied knowledge of the abduction but praised its perpetrators.

Nearly three weeks after the kidnappings, 16-year-old Mohammed Abu Khudair, a Palestinian living in East Jerusalem, was abducted, beaten and burned to death by, prosecutors said, a group of Jewish extremists.

Protests broke out in Abu Khudair's neighborhood and Hamas responded by firing rockets at Israel from Gaza.

That escalated into a full-scale war with Israel in which more than 2,000 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed, as well as 64 Israeli soldiers and three civilians in Israel.

Two Palestinian suspects Israel has named as the kidnappers of the three seminary students remain at large.

Israel said a third suspect arrested by its security forces admitted under interrogation to organizing the kidnapping with funds from Hamas in Gaza.

____________

Qatar, home to Hamas boss and funder of Gaza Strip, criticized amid cease-fire talks' collapseDUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — The explosions rocking the Gaza Strip may seem far removed from the flashy cars and skyscrapers of ultra-rich Qatar, but efforts to end fighting between Hamas and Israel could hinge on how the tiny Gulf Arab state wields its influence over a Palestinian militant group with few friends left.

Qatar has been home to Hamas chief-in-exile Khaled Mashaal since 2012 and has carved out a role as a key financial patron for Gaza, buying influence while shoring up an economy overseen by Hamas.

That support is prompting accusations that Qatar helped scuttle a lasting truce in the monthlong Gaza war, piling on pressure as the U.S. ally finds itself increasingly isolated as larger Mideast powers marginalize Islamists following the Arab Spring.

An official from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement suggested Wednesday that Qatar torpedoed the peace talks. After signs of progress last week, Hamas negotiators returned to the table after consultations in Qatar with new conditions — prompting a similar response by Israel, he said.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to discuss the negotiations publicly, said the experience indicated the Qataris "have no interest" in seeing Egyptian-led talks succeed, and that Qatar and the Muslim Brotherhood are working together to undermine Egypt.

The London-based pan-Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat separately quoted a senior Fatah official saying Qatar threatened to expel Mashaal if Hamas accepted an Egyptian peace proposal. It said Hamas demanded that Egypt grant Qatar a role in resolving the Gaza crisis, but Cairo rejected the idea until Qatar formally apologizes for its policies in Egypt since the military overthrow of Brotherhood-backed President Mohammed Morsi last summer.

Qatari officials could not be reached to comment on the claims. A Qatar-based spokesman for Hamas dismissed the Al-Hayat report as baseless and said it was an attempt to sabotage the negotiations.

"This is nonsense ... The nature of relations between Qatar and Hamas are not like that," Hamas spokesman Husam Badran told The Associated Press.

Khaled al-Batsch, a representative of the Islamic Jihad militant group, also denied Qatari interference. "We never felt at any point that there was a Qatari presence in the talks," he said.

An Israeli government official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter with journalists, said he did not know if Qatar actively encouraged Hamas to take a hard line, but said Qatar was at least indirectly responsible for the talks' failure.

"Qatar unfortunately has been part of the problem. They are the major supporter of Hamas," the Israeli official said.

Qatar at one point allowed an Israeli trade office to operate there — a rarity in the Arab world — before ordering it closed following a 2008 Israeli conflict with Hamas.

The outpost's former head, Eli Avidar, told the AP that he believes Qatar has "enormous influence" over Hamas and has been pushing Mashaal to take a much more extreme position in negotiations.

"Right now Qatar is the main problem and definitely not part of the solution," he wrote in an email. "The ruling family in Qatar should understand that this is a dangerous game their emir is playing."

But in a development reflecting both Qatar's significance and influence over Hamas, the Gulf country's news agency reported that Abbas arrived Wednesday in Doha, where he was due to hold talks with Mashaal and the emir.

It is hardly the first time Qatar has been accused of taking an unpopular stance in the region.

Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain recalled their ambassadors from Qatar in March, saying it failed to uphold its end of a security agreement to stop meddling in other nations' politics and backing groups threatening regional stability. Analysts widely saw that as a rebuke of Qatar's support for Islamist groups and its activist foreign policy, including its backing of the Al-Jazeera satellite network, which has nettled governments across the region.

Qatar's leaders reject suggestions that they are behind Hamas, and insist that the Gaza funding is intended for those who live there.

"Qatar does not support Hamas. Qatar supports the Palestinians," Qatari Foreign Minister Khalid al-Attiyah told CNN in late July.

The former Qatari emir, Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, has at least publicly attempted to promote reconciliation between Hamas and the Western-backed Palestinian Authority that governs the West Bank. He brokered an interim unity government between Abbas and Hamas in early 2012, but that was never implemented.

Before the year was out, the emir traveled to Gaza, becoming the first head of state to visit the seaside territory since Hamas militants seized control in 2007. He launched more than $400 million worth of projects, including plans for housing, a hospital and roads, and called for Palestinian unity.

Khalil Shaheen, a political analyst in Ramallah, suggested the idea that Qatar is solely in Hamas' camp is overblown. He said it has also provided funding for Abbas' government and has not tried to tie its Gaza aid to Hamas' military activities.

"There never was a real crisis between Qatar and the Palestinian Authority even during the worst times between Fatah and Hamas," Shaheen said.

He said Qatar wanted a role in the ceasefire talks based on its good relations with Hamas and to show that Egypt is "not the only dominant player in the region."

For the U.S., Qatar plays a role that it often can't by acting as a go-between with groups deemed unsavory by Washington. It earlier this year brokered the release of U.S. Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl in exchange for five Taliban operatives in Afghanistan.

U.S. State Dept. spokeswoman Marie Harf described the Qataris as "a key partner" in the effort to forge a peace deal in Gaza earlier this week, before talks collapsed. Responding to questions about whether they support terrorism and Hamas, she said they play a key role in getting Hamas to agree to a cease-fire.

"We need countries that have leverage over the leaders of Hamas who can help get a cease-fire in place, and Qatar certainly plays that role," she said.

 

[Gawain]

The 2022 World Cup is going to go over like a fart in church.

 

[higgins]

Lying Down With Dogs Turkey's support for Hamas agents who tried to topple Mahmoud Abbas's Palestinian Authority is putting Erdogan in a pickle.

• BY Jonathan Schanzer , Michael Argosh
• AUGUST 20, 2014

Israel's Shin Bet security service claimed on Aug. 18 that it thwarted a Hamas-led coup in the West Bank designed to topple Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas. The internal security agency said it arrested more than 90 Hamas operatives, confiscated weapons, and seized $170,000 in cash. The Israelis also fingered the man they believe to be at the center of the plot: Turkey-based Hamas leader Saleh al-Arouri.

The Israelis have not disclosed all the details about the Hamas plot they say they disrupted in the West Bank. However, the operation, allegedly coordinated by Arouri, appears to be aimed at first toppling the PA government in Ramallah and then deploying terrorists to inflict mass causalities on Israeli targets. Abbas ordered an inquiry into the plot, calling it a "real danger to the unity of the Palestinian people and its future."

Arouri's name came up recently as a person of interest for Israeli security officials, who raised the possibility that he masterminded the kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli teens in the West Bank earlier this summer. But even before that, he had quietly become a central player among Hamas's leaders outside of the Palestinian territories. In the early 1990s, Arouri was one of the founders of Hamas's armed wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, in the West Bank. He languished in an Israeli jail until May 2010, when the Israelis released him due to the expiration of his detention order.

Following his release, Arouri moved to Damascus -- but when ties soured with President Bashar al-Assad's regime over the Syrian civil war, he is believed to have relocated to Turkey in early 2012.

In Turkey, Arouri has attended high-level Hamas meetings with the outgoing prime minister and newly elected president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. One senior Israeli intelligence official described him to me last year as "one of the most important leaders of Hamas," involved in everything from organizing the group's finances to logistics.

But Arouri is not alone in Turkey. In 2011, Israel released 10 Hamas operatives to Turkey as part of the prisoner exchange that saw Hamas release kidnapped Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldier Gilad Shalit. Since then, Hamas men have come and gone. But one thing is clear:

The Hamas members who remain in Turkey are active. They attend local universities, join Turkish organizations, and play a role in its politics, and also appear to travel freely into and out of the country.

Take Mahmoud Attoun. In the early morning of Dec. 13, 1992, Attoun and a group of other Hamas terrorists abducted IDF Sgt. Maj. Nissim Toledano, a 29-year-old father of two young children, on his walk home from work in the Israeli town of Lod. After his arrest on June 3, 1993, Attoun, then 23, was sentenced to a life term in Israeli prison. He was released in 2011.

Today, Attoun is a rising star within Hamas. He frequently advocates for Hamas around the region, traveling to Tunisia this April to speak with students at the University of Sfax about the Palestinian militant organization. He appeared on a special program in 2012 on al-Quds TV honoring the freed Hamas prisoners, where he openly acknowledged his presence in Turkey. Attoun is also actively involved with the Hikmet Bilim Dostluk ve Yardimlasma Dernegi (HIKMET), a Turkish NGO associated with the Muslim Brotherhood, and has spoken at one of their events.

There is also Taysir Suleiman. The Hamas operative was convicted of kidnapping and murdering an Israeli soldier in 1993, and sentenced to life in prison in Israel's high-security Nafha Prison in the Negev Desert. In 2011, he was also shipped abroad in the Shalit deal; today, he openly notes on his Facebook profile that he lives in Istanbul, and he appeared alongside Hamas political bureau leader Khaled Meshaal in a video dated March 2012 in the city. That same summer, he traveled to Southeast Asia and Tunisia, where he presented slide shows to students about the al-Qassam Brigades. In October 2013, Suleiman was featured in an hour-long special on the al-Quds TV station celebrating his release from Israeli prison.

Along with Arouri, Suleiman, and Attoun, there appear to be at least nine other Hamas figures living in Turkey, based on open-source information. None of them were identified by the Israelis in the alleged plot to overthrow Abbas in the West Bank.

However, given that the plot was allegedly hatched out of Turkey, the presence of Arouri and the other Hamas figures prompt some troubling questions about Erdogan's pro-Hamas policies.

Over the past decade, the relationship between Jerusalem and Ankara has grown increasingly frosty. As far back as 2004, when Israel assassinated Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin, Erdogan accused Israel of "state terrorism." There was also the ill-fated Turkish flotilla to Gaza in 2010, which resulted in a clash between activists on the Mavi Marmara and Israeli commandos on the high seas, leaving 10 dead, and caused a crisis in Turkish-Israeli ties. Erdogan's anti-Israel sentiment has reached a fever pitch during the current Gaza war, when on July 18 he compared Israel's operation to the "barbarism" of Hitler. Erdogan also appears intent on transforming that rhetoric into policy: He has maintained a strong working and personal relationship Khaled Meshaal, who has visited Turkey at least 10 times since 2006, and reportedly provides the organization will millions of dollars in annual aid.

Erdogan's support for Hamas is ideological; his Justice and Development Party (AKP) undoubtedly identifies with the Muslim Brotherhood. But his support is also politically strategic -- he has used the Palestinian cause as a tool to gain votes among conservative Turks, and also to gain regional clout among pro-Palestinian sympathizers across the Middle East.

While this strategy has led to short-term success -- reflected in Erdogan's victory in the popular vote for president -- the alleged plot to overthrow the PA government in Ramallah suggests the Turkish government has entered dangerous new territory. To say the least, if a plot was hatched out of Turkey to bring down the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank, it would appear decidedly anti-Palestinian. And while the Turks deny any knowledge of the plot, it could still put a dent in the AKP's pro-Palestinian bona fides.

But this could be the least of Turkey's problems. Turkey's unabashed embrace of Hamas is a decidedly awkward policy for a NATO member state and a long-standing U.S. ally to adopt. It's still unclear whether NATO or the State Department is prepared to broach the subject with Erdogan. But with about a dozen Hamas figures on the loose in Turkey, including a top operative who may have tried to bring down the West Bank's government, the issue is growing increasingly difficult for the West to ignore.

 

[jamny]

Palestinians attack Gaza UN compound after aid suspended

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Dozens of Palestinians attacked a United Nations compound in Gaza City following the world body's suspension of an aid program for victims of last year's war.

The Palestinians involved in the Wednesday incident were protesting the decision to halt aid because of a shortfall of funding from donor countries.

The protesters jumped over the compound's walls and smashed guard cabins and windows. They burned tires and threw stones at the compound's gate.

The U.N. said it was "outraged by the assault." It said the Islamic militant group Hamas, which rules Gaza, knew of the planned protest but did not take appropriate measures to protect the compound.

The U.N. Palestinian refugee agency said it needs $720 million to help 96,000 families whose homes were damaged or demolished in the 2014 war.

That makes sense, attack those that are trying to help.