Sand
Footballguy
There is also a huge religious component here. Any land conquered in the name of Islam is to be Muslim forever.
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War in Israel (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter dickey moe
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Greetings Col Jessupthis has been discussed quite a bit in the thread so sharing the link, apologies if someone else posted and I missed it, this thing moves fast
Palestinians Lack Faith in Biden, Two-State Solution
Ahead of Hamas' recent attack on Israel, most Palestinians distrusted Biden's ability to mediate peace, and support for a two-state solution dropped to 24%.news.gallup.com
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
- 84% of Palestinians have little to no trust in President Joe Biden to help negotiate peace
- 24% of Palestinians support a two-state solution, down from 59% in 2012
- Young Palestinians significantly less likely to believe in two states living side by side
75% no longer believe in a 2-state solution. 80% doubt the possibility of permanent peace
-I'm worried about the youth/young, young adults 19-21, both here and over there, my last post was pretty much "let's give them all a hug" and I mean it.
-I'm worried we as a society did this to them starting around the pandemic and have just compounded things over the last 2-3+ years.
I want to talk and listen to what they have to say, that does not mean I want these same people shaping internal policy here in the States.
And it's not just the youth, there are plenty of adults that also need help in the Mental Health vertical.
I realize this is focused on Palestinians over in Israel but I can't really help those folks right now. I can however get on a Brightline here in South Florida and go to my alma mater, Univ of Miami and be ready to meet some people that might be waving signs and flags that I find offensive but need to get past that so I can get ready to receive these students/youngsters, whatever is troubling these folks that is making them spend their free time on this nonsense, "I want to know what you're thinking , tell me what's on your mind" and that's exactly what I want right now.
I want a ring side seat right now with a camera/phone and a mic so i can ask simple questions and let them do all the talking.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
No source other than @sharonsaysso on IG (a BRILLIANT follow, over 1MM followers, for news/history/government type content if you are so inclined) but she's talking about the aid trucks waiting at the Rafah crossing and made a point I hadn't thought about.
We're talking about 20 trucks waiting to cross into Gaza currently. She states that 60-80% of Gazans relied on humanitarian aid prior to these current events and that they received 100-400+ trucks PER DAY prior to this.
Man, this paints a really bleak picture, as if things weren't bad enough already.
ETA: trying to find more source for this claim
We're talking about 20 trucks waiting to cross into Gaza currently. She states that 60-80% of Gazans relied on humanitarian aid prior to these current events and that they received 100-400+ trucks PER DAY prior to this.
Man, this paints a really bleak picture, as if things weren't bad enough already.
ETA: trying to find more source for this claim
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
still searching, but this PDF document within this page doesn't paint a very pretty picture, and this was May 2023
United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Critical Needs and Funding Requirements as of May 2023
Humanitarian organizations in the occupied Palestinian territory face an impossible situation. In June, unless immediate funding is received, the World Food Program will suspend food aid to more than 200,000 Palestinians in Gaza; by August, it may have to stop food and cash assistance entirely...
Big League Chew
Footballguy
So the phrase Free Palestine means what in this situation
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Lack of water worsens misery in besieged Gaza as Israeli airstrikes continue
In the besieged Gaza Strip, 2.3 million people don’t have access to clean, running water because of Israel’s decision to cut off water and electricity to the enclave while pounding it with airstrikes.
apnews.com
The chokehold has seen taps run dry across the territory. When water does trickle from pipes, the meager flow lasts no more than 30 minutes each day and is so contaminated with sewage and seawater that it’s undrinkable, residents said.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...ombs-region-where-civilians-were-told-to-flee (posted 10/17)The U.N. agency for Palestinians said more than 400,000 displaced people are crowded into schools and other facilities in the south. The agency said it has only 1 liter of water a day for each of its staff members trapped in the territory.
Israel opened a water line into the south for three hours that benefitted only 14 percent of Gaza’s population, the U.N. said.
At the Rafah crossing, Gaza’s only connection to Egypt, truckloads of aid were waiting to enter. The World Food Program said that it had more than 300 tons of food waiting to cross into Gaza.
Al Jazeera claims there are 100+ trucks (a few days ago) waiting:
Why Rafah crossing is vital for supplying aid amid Israeli bombing of Gaza
Egypt has said Palestinians need to remain on their own land – but it is trying to facilitate humanitarian aid.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
still looking for data to back up her claim, but I did find this from 2010
IDF sends 14,000 tons of aid to Gaza
Fuel, gas, food, hygiene products and medical supplies transferred.
www.jpost.com
Over 14,000 tons of humanitarian aid were transferred from Israel into the Gaza Strip last week, the IDF announced on Tuesday in its weekly summary of COGAT operations."A total of 637 truckloads, consisting of 14,069 tons of humanitarian aid, were transferred into the Gaza Strip from Israel via the various crossings," read a statement by the IDF Spokesperson.
so that's 637 trucks in a week, and we are talking about 20 trucks here after almost 2 weeks worth of heavy conflict? :(
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
lots of links within this one, haven't checked them all out yet, but wanted to share before I lose it:
theconversation.com
Gaza depends on UN and other global aid groups for food, medicine and basic services – Israel-Hamas war means nothing is getting in
Many people in Gaza are reliant on the United Nations and other international aid groups to meet their basic needs, like food and medical care. A scholar of peace and conflict economics explains why.
theconversation.com
BassNBrew
Footballguy
If this is true, then they need to just go at it until one side wins.this has been discussed quite a bit in the thread so sharing the link, apologies if someone else posted and I missed it, this thing moves fast
Palestinians Lack Faith in Biden, Two-State Solution
Ahead of Hamas' recent attack on Israel, most Palestinians distrusted Biden's ability to mediate peace, and support for a two-state solution dropped to 24%.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
- 84% of Palestinians have little to no trust in President Joe Biden to help negotiate peace
- 24% of Palestinians support a two-state solution, down from 59% in 2012
- Young Palestinians significantly less likely to believe in two states living side by side
75% no longer believe in a 2-state solution. 80% doubt the possibility of permanent peace
Clown Car
Footballguy
I have a friend living in Tel Aviv. She came Thursday morning to visit her sons in Florida. She is supposed to go back on Oct 30 unless we can figure out a way to keep her. Anyway, her husband works in a hotel and it is packed with people who left the area. I don’t know who they are exactly. But there are a lot more people there than usual they say.One would assume that the Israeli military has war-gamed a ground invasion of Gaza aimed at rooting out Hamas many, many times. I'm a little unhappy that they haven't been more explicit about what the endgame is here, but probably there is a menu of options sitting there in front of Netanyahu that he's either already selected from or will select from depending on how things go over the next couple of months. It's not like this is a situation that Israel never had any reason to contemplate before today.I am pretty sure that is the plan…..and I am quite sure they will help rebuild Gaza as well.My thoughts as well, destroy as much of the terrorist infrastructure as you can while you have the ability to do so. Hamas leadership is scattered to the four winds, or should be if they were smart. I know the Israeli's have posted a few high value targets they've taken off the board but the political leader of Hamas wasn't in country on October 7th and hasn't been since 2019, I'm guessing he didn't secret his way back for the final battle. Destroy as much of the tunnel infrastructure as you can, destroy weapons caches, destroy everything you can that allows Hamas to wage terroristic war on Israel and leave.
Curious what the people who evacuated per Israeli orders are supposed to do? It's not like there are AirBnBs in South Gaza they can hang out at while they wait for Israel to do it's thing.
Todem
Footballguy
To eliminate Israel….what else can it mean when they consistently turn down two state solutions.
This is why it is unnerving seeing US college students parading around ivy league schools singing terrorist songs and saying things they have no idea about and thinking murdering 1400 people is an act of resistance. And these so called university presidents sit silently.
Don’t even get me started.
I admit I almost always fall on the side of grace towards the young folks. I was that way. I'm sure many others. I marched on campus in college demanding the University divest itself of companies who did business in South Africa. Mostly because U2 said that was a good thing to do. I knew very little about the realities. In hindsight, I think I was on the right side of that but the reality was I didn't really know.
I'm inclined to give similar grace to young people today.
Although to be fair, I hold professors and older people to a higher standard. Interesting retractions here https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-un...ming-israel-for-hamas-massacre-after-censure/
To your bigger point though, I do think it's good to talk to people like you're saying. Trying to understand folks with a different view is always good.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
It's being reported that the border is open for the trucks now but I fear that this is going to get MUCH MUCH worse, from a humanitarian standpoint, if they don't ramp up the resupplies very soon.
www.theguardian.com
Aid entering Gaza not enough to avert ‘humanitarian catastrophe’, says UN chief
After visit to Rafah crossing, António Guterres says regular supply of food, water, medicine and fuel needed as first 20 trucks enter from Egypt
The ActionAid communications and advocacy coordinator, Riham Jafari, said: “We welcome this morning’s aid convoy into Gaza, but it’s clear that what’s being delivered today is barely a drop in the ocean. Before this crisis began, around 500 aid trucks would normally cross the border every day providing a vital lifeline to millions of Gazans who were already facing a humanitarian crisis.
,,,
“Aid trucks also did not bring with them the fuel needed to power hospitals, keep ambulances moving, or to pump water from the ground. We’re hearing stories every day of communities coming together to donate whatever fuel they have remaining to keep incubators going for newborns who are in a critical condition. With 2.2 million Gazans facing a humanitarian crisis, we’re urgently calling for a ceasefire and for the opening of humanitarian corridors.”
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
The world should start calling for Hamas to release all hostages and surrender. Palestinians should call for this too.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Yikes. That’s far worse than the almost 60% numbers that I referenced pages ago. You can’t get 80% of a population to agree on anything. What a mess.this has been discussed quite a bit in the thread so sharing the link, apologies if someone else posted and I missed it, this thing moves fast
Palestinians Lack Faith in Biden, Two-State Solution
Ahead of Hamas' recent attack on Israel, most Palestinians distrusted Biden's ability to mediate peace, and support for a two-state solution dropped to 24%.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
- 84% of Palestinians have little to no trust in President Joe Biden to help negotiate peace
- 24% of Palestinians support a two-state solution, down from 59% in 2012
- Young Palestinians significantly less likely to believe in two states living side by side
75% no longer believe in a 2-state solution. 80% doubt the possibility of permanent peace
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
more info on the 20 trucks...
www.unicefusa.org
First Trucks Cross Into Gaza With Supplies for Children Caught in Conflict
Amid calls for an immediate end to all hostilities, UNICEF is working with partners to deliver urgently needed aid to children trapped in Gaza.
www.unicefusa.org
A 20-truck humanitarian convoy carrying urgently needed emergency supplies entered Gaza through the Rafah border crossing on Saturday, Oct. 21, including over 44,000 bottles of drinking water — enough for 22,000 people for one day — supplied by UNICEF.
also...UN says no further humanitarian convoys planned until Monday with many details still unclear
Talking to UN officials, the limitations on the humanitarian deliveries we are seeing today are even more stark. As far as they know, there is no relief convoy planned for tomorrow. The next convoy they are aware of is a UN consignment on Monday.
Although the deal was supposed to have been hammered out by Joe Biden on Wednesday, there are a lot of details that are unclear. The UN is still in talks over what verification procedures, to ensure there are no weapons or other contraband in the shipments, will be acceptable to the Israelis.
Also the UN is still trying to get fuel included in the humanitarian relief deliveries, as it is essential for running hospital generators and Gaza’s water desalination and pumping systems.
massraider
Footballguy
Why would a Palestinian have faith in Biden?Yikes. That’s far worse than the almost 60% numbers that I referenced pages ago. You can’t get 80% of a population to agree on anything. What a mess.this has been discussed quite a bit in the thread so sharing the link, apologies if someone else posted and I missed it, this thing moves fast
Palestinians Lack Faith in Biden, Two-State Solution
Ahead of Hamas' recent attack on Israel, most Palestinians distrusted Biden's ability to mediate peace, and support for a two-state solution dropped to 24%.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
- 84% of Palestinians have little to no trust in President Joe Biden to help negotiate peace
- 24% of Palestinians support a two-state solution, down from 59% in 2012
- Young Palestinians significantly less likely to believe in two states living side by side
75% no longer believe in a 2-state solution. 80% doubt the possibility of permanent peace
Or any US government?
massraider
Footballguy
On the two-state solution
news.sky.com
What is the two-state solution for Israel and Palestinians?
In the late 1990s, the Oslo Accords created hope an agreement could be reached to give the Israelis and Palestinians their own territories. But now, various factors have left many believing the prospect of a two-state solution is further away than ever.
news.sky.com
Sand
Footballguy
more info on the 20 trucks...
First Trucks Cross Into Gaza With Supplies for Children Caught in Conflict
Amid calls for an immediate end to all hostilities, UNICEF is working with partners to deliver urgently needed aid to children trapped in Gaza.
A 20-truck humanitarian convoy carrying urgently needed emergency supplies entered Gaza through the Rafah border crossing on Saturday, Oct. 21, including over 44,000 bottles of drinking water — enough for 22,000 people for one day — supplied by UNICEF.
It amazes me the public discourse centers around these trucks, which are no more than Hamas resupply trucks.
Yet, the humanitarian crisis of the 200 hostages is far in the background.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Why would anyone have faith in Biden? I wasn't referencing that point, just the one that states 75% don't believe in a two state solution and 80% doubt the possibility of peace.Why would a Palestinian have faith in Biden?Yikes. That’s far worse than the almost 60% numbers that I referenced pages ago. You can’t get 80% of a population to agree on anything. What a mess.this has been discussed quite a bit in the thread so sharing the link, apologies if someone else posted and I missed it, this thing moves fast
Palestinians Lack Faith in Biden, Two-State Solution
Ahead of Hamas' recent attack on Israel, most Palestinians distrusted Biden's ability to mediate peace, and support for a two-state solution dropped to 24%.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
- 84% of Palestinians have little to no trust in President Joe Biden to help negotiate peace
- 24% of Palestinians support a two-state solution, down from 59% in 2012
- Young Palestinians significantly less likely to believe in two states living side by side
75% no longer believe in a 2-state solution. 80% doubt the possibility of permanent peace
Or any US government?
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
I don't think it's in the background necessarily. When the 2 hostages were released recently it was reported everywhere. But there are 2.2MM people in Gaza. That is an epic scale humanitarian crisis playing out in real time, so it's going to get a lot of headlines.more info on the 20 trucks...
First Trucks Cross Into Gaza With Supplies for Children Caught in Conflict
Amid calls for an immediate end to all hostilities, UNICEF is working with partners to deliver urgently needed aid to children trapped in Gaza.
A 20-truck humanitarian convoy carrying urgently needed emergency supplies entered Gaza through the Rafah border crossing on Saturday, Oct. 21, including over 44,000 bottles of drinking water — enough for 22,000 people for one day — supplied by UNICEF.
It amazes me the public discourse centers around these trucks, which are no more than Hamas resupply trucks.
Yet, the humanitarian crisis of the 200 hostages is far in the background.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This article came out a few days ago, but I don't recall seeing it in here.
Just horrific stuff. If you search for some things in this article, you can find much more graphic details. Just awful. Hamas needs to be destroyed by any means necessary.
Just horrific stuff. If you search for some things in this article, you can find much more graphic details. Just awful. Hamas needs to be destroyed by any means necessary.
massraider
Footballguy
I think Israel may have more faith in Biden, what do you think?
The concept of a two state solution in 1967, and now are two very different things, and those percentages seem like people who live there being realistic.
Sand
Footballguy
American hostages, American press. It is good to see that we got a couple back. And, as a first in recent memory, we didn't have to pay a billion each for them.I don't think it's in the background necessarily. When the 2 hostages were released recently it was reported everywhere. But there are 2.2MM people in Gaza. That is an epic scale humanitarian crisis playing out in real time, so it's going to get a lot of headlines.more info on the 20 trucks...
First Trucks Cross Into Gaza With Supplies for Children Caught in Conflict
Amid calls for an immediate end to all hostilities, UNICEF is working with partners to deliver urgently needed aid to children trapped in Gaza.
A 20-truck humanitarian convoy carrying urgently needed emergency supplies entered Gaza through the Rafah border crossing on Saturday, Oct. 21, including over 44,000 bottles of drinking water — enough for 22,000 people for one day — supplied by UNICEF.
It amazes me the public discourse centers around these trucks, which are no more than Hamas resupply trucks.
Yet, the humanitarian crisis of the 200 hostages is far in the background.
Looking at the news out there, though, I get the undeniable impression there is much more concern over the plight of Gazans, who overwhelmingly support Hamas, to the plight of 200 hostages subjected to rape and torture.
Scoresman
Footballguy
I haven't posted much here mainly because I am not very up to date on the history of this conflict, although I've been learning a lot over the last few weeks. Our client at work is a big name tech company with a factory about 10 miles from Gaza. We were due to travel there for work sometime after the beginning of the new year. That has been cancelled thankfully.
One thing I notice is that this issue doesn't seem to be as black and white on the political spectrum like so many other issues are. Looking at my social media feeds, I have liberal friends on both sides of the issue and the same with conservative friends. I have to say it's a weird feeling to not immediately know what side of an issue someone will be on based on their political leanings. I hope this is ok to talk about here.
One thing I notice is that this issue doesn't seem to be as black and white on the political spectrum like so many other issues are. Looking at my social media feeds, I have liberal friends on both sides of the issue and the same with conservative friends. I have to say it's a weird feeling to not immediately know what side of an issue someone will be on based on their political leanings. I hope this is ok to talk about here.
I think there's just more news right now about aid finally going into Gaza. There's not much news to report on the 200 hostages. I occasionally listen and watch to CNN while I'm walking and Anderson continues to conduct many interviews with family members of those massacred and those who were likely kidnapped. It's great documentation of the massacre. I have concern for both the hostages and innocent Gazans, such as children.
Todem
Footballguy
The issue of a government that slaughtered 1400 innocent people? That issue?
Because that is why we are here and have this thread.
Todem
Footballguy
I always feel sick for innocent woman and children…..no matter what. I think we all do.
The horrors of war.
Scoresman
Footballguy
What? Holy crap I now know why I don’t participate in these threads.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
ETA: they changed the headline before I could get it posted... it did read "Aid groups in Gaza claim Israel urges evacuation of hospital, 5 schools; no confirmation from IDF"
IDF denies Gaza aid groups’ claim that it urged evacuation of hospital, 5 schools
* * *www.timesofisrael.com
This has now been withdrawn:
News agency withdraws story that claimed Israel warned a hospital, 5 schools to evacuate
* * *
www.timesofisrael.com
Chemical X
Footballguy
the only reason this isn’t black and white is because israel/jews are involved and being an anti-semite is pretty ok in this country. as a nation, we are pretty equal opportunity haters, it’s just now you don’t have to hate in a closet. you can social media around to find others that also hate.
a nation was attacked on its own soil by a terrorist organization, by land, sea and air. over 1000 were killed, men, women and children. many in their own homes.
seems pretty black and white to me, but the eff do i know?
Todem
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Let's try to keep this thread open guys.
Bozeman Bruiser
Footballguy
It is weird seeing the Neo Nazis, Radical Muslims, and "Antisemitism is rampant except when Hamas slaughters 1400 Jews" liberals all on the same team.
I suspect most who play the "tHiS iS a CoMpLiCaTeD iSsUe" card have not seen the videos of Hamas slaughtering Jews, including beheadings, burning infants alive, rape and murder of young women, execution of the elderly, and cheering all of this savagery like they just won the World Cup.
Anyone who supports these people (or pretends that Hamas does not equal Gaza) is sick in the head or intentionally ignorant, it is a very simple issue.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This might have nothing whatsoever to do with the events in Israel, but given the antisemitism in the air right now, it might be worth filing this away:
www.freep.com
Detroit synagogue president Samantha Woll found dead outside her home
Samantha Woll, 40, had led the Isaac Agree Downtown Detroit Synagogue since 2022. Attorney General Dana Nessel said Woll was murdered in a statement.
www.freep.com
I guess antisemitism trumps ones political leanings.
Todem
Footballguy
I agree, gonna cool off….but man…..
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I understand, as I've been saying for the last few days, we really need to open our arms and see people that are in pain and lashing out right now.
I don't think Todem meant anything personal and you have nothing to apologize for Scores
You're right, the spectrum isn't B&W, I agree with you.
There is a lot of uncomfortableness for me on both the Left and Right, that's mostly why i feel Independent although it would be unfair to say i don't lean towards the Right
But I voted for Clinton and Obama once during their time in the Oval Office so I do embody being Independent.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I want to say it's on the scale of 9/11 but it seems so amateur with the 1-man ultralights, it seems so beneath the victims that suffered in Israel that day.
But you bet if it happened here, just imagine they were Canadiens that flew into Minneapolis...you can be sure it wouldn't take the US Military to go over that border to retrieve hostages,
The families of the victims would want to go after the culprits immediately.
I think it's difficult for people to understand unless they relive 9/11, and I might point out as much as it felt like everyone was go get 'em, that was not the case.
Many on here were against invading Iraq and perhaps were right in hind sight, depends on your POV and we don't need to discuss it, just making a point that there is going to be many POV
Not all are going to line up with everyone's personal opinion and viewpoint.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
Agree, while there are a lot of differing opinions/emotions by everyone, I am pretty sure no one has changed their opinions based on any posts. The tendency is to fire back your own beliefs.
(HULK)
(Smash)
It isn't black and white because Israel's hands are not pristine.
I do think, looking back through the history of everything, Israel's hands could've been much much dirtier though. And that the people of Palestine are as much to blame, if not more to blame, than the people of Israel.
I think some people like to take sides and keep it simple. Well, if that's you, be on the side of Israel IMO. If you stack up all the stuff done to Israel vs the stuff Israel has done, Israel has a net result of goodness. The same cannot be said for Hamas. They're abhorrent in my mind, and nothing ever justifies the crimes against humanity they've wantonly committed.
All that being said, in Gaza, there are over a million kids. Kids on both sides are entirely innocent and as Israel moves into a ground invasion, my hope is that every protective action possible is taken to protect those children.
I do think, looking back through the history of everything, Israel's hands could've been much much dirtier though. And that the people of Palestine are as much to blame, if not more to blame, than the people of Israel.
I think some people like to take sides and keep it simple. Well, if that's you, be on the side of Israel IMO. If you stack up all the stuff done to Israel vs the stuff Israel has done, Israel has a net result of goodness. The same cannot be said for Hamas. They're abhorrent in my mind, and nothing ever justifies the crimes against humanity they've wantonly committed.
All that being said, in Gaza, there are over a million kids. Kids on both sides are entirely innocent and as Israel moves into a ground invasion, my hope is that every protective action possible is taken to protect those children.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I can tell you how Hamas would handle that if we reverse the scenario to Israel
They would take every last living Jew off the planet if given the capability, and America not long after if you let them
Now, who funds Hamas and why are they allowed to try and build nuclear plants?
Let's discuss reality and what's important vs made up death tolls that aren't likely to come anywhere close to that.
Egypt is discussing a way to flood the tunnels and kill everyone that might be hiding down there, could only be Hamas and hostages possibly but they're likely dead anyways.
Do you support any methods at all to eradicate Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran?
BassNBrew
Footballguy
IMO...it was a fair question. I didn't read it as a veiled shot at you (I could be wrong)
At what level does Gaza = Hamas then justify any means necessary? IF 80% of the Gaza population does want Israel eliminated instead of a two state plan, a call for cleanup on aisle two isn't going to accomplish that. Shock and awe might be the only option. The US had a committee to discuss how to end the war in Japan and how to demonstrate the power of the new bombs. Even after Pearl Harbor and everything the Japanese had done there were frequently discussions about the civilians and what price they should pay. Would Japan have turned out like it did if we had accepted a partial surrender and left the emperor system in place? Of course there are counter examples where trying to install democracy hasn't worked.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
For me, this really is pretty simple. Hamas cannot be allowed to maintain power in Gaza after 10/7. That is not acceptable anymore, and Israel is completely justified in doing what they need to do to remove them from power. I expect that they'll take appropriate steps to minimize civilian casualties, but Hamas is going to depend on human shields as part of their military strategy (which is, of course, one reason for removing them), so there will be civilian deaths for sure.
Once this is over and we're talking about what comes next for the Palestinian people, that would be a good time to talk about Israel's history in region and what it potentially owes the Palestinians. But Hamas <> Palestine and Hamas must be removed.
General Malaise
Footballguy
I wouldn't even know where to find such videos - have you watched them?
Deleted several posts. This kind of flip confrontation stuff is not what we want here. We'll take a break for a few days. Maybe for good. If you wanted it shut down, good job.
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