"they chose to do this" narrative as an excuse (when it is really not a choice) (1 Viewer)

[parasaurolophus]

Exactly. Thanks for your help... Again. 

No problem. I appreciate you just being honest instead of dancing around the issue. 

 

[msudaisy26]

No problem. I appreciate you just being honest instead of dancing around the issue. 

Likewise

 

[shadrap]

As long as you don't go down the "/antiwork" road...

I'm sure we can all agree we each had different challenges and difficulties in our lives we could have used as excuses to not get where we are. Some people have to fight harder and longer, but that isn't what I see being the difference.

The "Choice" I would focus on is the one to quit.  To not play the game you have to play to succeed.  And then to blame the world for you not having the life you want.

We have all seen those who had it "easier" aren't always able to hack it, and quit.  We have all seen those who had it "harder" persevere, refusing to quit.  And everything in between.

The choice is personal responsibility for your outcomes.

yep.  in my experience hard work comes to the forefront & gets recognized.  maybe its getting to work 15 minutes before everyone else.  maybe it's a lot of things.  so tired of excuses for most everything.

good post by the way!

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Obviously, this isn't an either/or thing. We are influenced by our external environment and we are also responsible for our own actions, and a huge chunk of public policy involves figuring out how to strike a balance between those two realities.

But what I agree with the OP about is that I think we as a society tend to underrate the importance of external factors. A ton of social science research (best summarized in books like Nudge and Mindless Eating) demonstrate that we have far less control over our decisions than we realize. To cite a few examples from the latter book: If I give you a bigger plate you will eat more. If I put lots of adjectives on the menu, eg, "Grandma's Homestyle Meatloaf", you will eat more. If I give you free glass of wine with dinner and tell you it's from France, you will eat more even if it's actually Two-Buck Chuck.

It has also always bothered me how frequently people and organizations preach personal responsibility in others precisely as a way of dodging their own culpability. As we were just discussing in another thread, manufacturers push an impossible-to-decipher recycling regiment on consumers and hope no one will notice that their overproduction of plastic is the main reason for the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, not the fact that Little Suzy tossed her Coke can in the trash. Similarly, junk-food makers claim that consumers are choosing to eat their foods even as they spend billions of dollars every year for the express purpose of manipulating those choices.

So yeah, I believe in personal responsibility. But I'm not so sure I believe in some of the people pushing it.

 

[Desert_Power]

Add another lack of choice to the board.

 

[kface]

Obviously, this isn't an either/or thing. We are influenced by our external environment and we are also responsible for our own actions, and a huge chunk of public policy involves figuring out how to strike a balance between those two realities.

But what I agree with the OP about is that I think we as a society tend to underrate the importance of external factors. A ton of social science research (best summarized in books like Nudge and Mindless Eating) demonstrate that we have far less control over our decisions than we realize. To cite a few examples from the latter book: If I give you a bigger plate you will eat more. If I put lots of adjectives on the menu, eg, "Grandma's Homestyle Meatloaf", you will eat more. If I give you free glass of wine with dinner and tell you it's from France, you will eat more even if it's actually Two-Buck Chuck.

It has also always bothered me how frequently people and organizations preach personal responsibility in others precisely as a way of dodging their own culpability. As we were just discussing in another thread, manufacturers push an impossible-to-decipher recycling regiment on consumers and hope no one will notice that their overproduction of plastic is the main reason for the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, not the fact that Little Suzy tossed her Coke can in the trash. Similarly, junk-food makers claim that consumers are choosing to eat their foods even as they spend billions of dollars every year for the express purpose of manipulating those choices.

So yeah, I believe in personal responsibility. But I'm not so sure I believe in some of the people pushing it.

This post is the winner.  We are honestly more closer to robots making pre-determined decisions than we are to free-willed people.  It takes a lot of work to undermine the channels in your brain that you are born with and reinforced over your early years.  I would say 90% of people don't and just keep reacting to the same things over and over again based on what happened to them as children.  

 

[Stealthycat]

There are several issues at play here when one compares poor white rural Christian America with Black America

1) Poor white rural Christian America started voting in unprecedented numbers in 2016 and 2020. 

so? what does that have to do with racist actions of creating/investing black only or white only?  and not that I'm not in favor of all white or all black anything but creating/investing specifically is racist that we're supposed to all be opposed to

2) Black America has a heavy presence in mass entertainment and sports, which assigns them a "novelty factor" to over educated "Limousine Liberals"  Does anyone think LL contingent actually cares about the true plight of Black America? It's mostly a public virtue signal to assign self purity at the Altar of Wokeness. Useful "Woke Shock Troopers" is just a few steps away from "Disposable Political Cannon Fodder"  Beyonce is invited to sing at their wealthy elite parties, but never asked to sit down in the back room tables when the country and it's wealth are being carved up.

you mean disproportionate presence ?  yes they do - because they're better athletically it appears and best athletes. regardless, they make more in 1 NBA game than I'll make in a decade - and Beyonce? She doesn't have to sing in front of anyone, she's choosing to and if its offensive to her, STOP DOING IT, right ? 

Poor white rural Christian America needs to save itself too. The major voting block isn't enough, as I stated before, you need to have financial leverage at the local political level ( via masses of local businesses that community pillars), that influences municipal decisions, school boards, local policy, etc, etc. You amass enough of those and you can take State Legislatures which allows you to shape state public policy and laws. This makes you powerful in that if you take enough large areas of a state, you become a critical factor in either taking or holding that state's natural electoral votes. Now you have nation wide leverage.

sounds like you greatly favor natural segregation - strong black communities, strong white ones ... no mixed ones

Black America should be spending their money with businesses that are owned and operated by other local black Americans. Keep that money in house and in their communities. Poor white rural Christian America should do the same.

YOU CANNOT SHORTCUT THE DYNAMICS OF ACTUAL POLITICAL LEVERAGE.

Screaming at the public about racism and putting logos on the field at major sporting events will not cut it. This is where much of the political advocacy of Black America fails.

split and divide this nation even farther then ? maybe we should allow white people only living in certain areas, blacks in other areas, latino's in their own area's etc ?

sorry, I see the out of the box thoughts there, but I think we're all stronger together not apart

 

[Joe Bryant]

Exactly. Thanks for your help. 

Thanks. Can you elaborate more on "society should adjust and make accommodations for people with gambling problems and gluttony issues? ".

I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. 

Specifically how you're defining, "adjust and make accommodations". 

 

[msudaisy26]

Thanks. Can you elaborate more on "society should adjust and make accommodations for people with gambling problems and gluttony issues? ".

I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. 

Specifically how you're defining, "adjust and make accommodations". 

My comment was tongue and cheek directed at the person that was posting absurd comments and trying to play I got you with his examples. 

But... I do think we should make more concessions to help the less fortunate or people with problems. This isn't a blanket statement. Every case is unique and different. 

The easiest example for me is education. We should be spending so much more on education as a country, from pre-school to post grad. This is a tough pill to swallow as a country too, because directly it is a money pit. Indirectly though is solves so many other problems that are difficult to measure and overall I believe it would be a net positive physically, psychologically, and the financial gain in other areas would easily off-set the financial losses in education. 

The tldr version is I wish we treated our problems and struggling people the way we treat our richest people. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

My comment was tongue and cheek directed at the person that was posting absurd comments and trying to play I got you with his examples. 

But... I do think we should make more concessions to help the less fortunate or people with problems. This isn't a blanket statement. Every case is unique and different. 

The easiest example for me is education. We should be spending so much more on education as a country, from pre-school to post grad. This is a tough pill to swallow as a country too, because directly it is a money pit. Indirectly though is solves so many other problems that are difficult to measure and overall I believe it would be a net positive physically, psychologically, and the financial gain in other areas would easily off-set the financial losses in education. 

The tldr version is I wish we treated our problems and struggling people the way we treat our richest people. 

Thanks. I think everyone agrees we want more empathy.

I just didn't understand specifically what you meant when you said "society should adjust and make accommodations for people with gambling problems and gluttony issues". 

What would that look like? Education on the dangers of gambling and gluttony? Education feels different than "making accommodations" but wanted to make sure I understood specifically what you mean on "make accommodations".

 

[msudaisy26]

Thanks. I think everyone agrees we want more empathy.

I just didn't understand specifically what you meant when you said "society should adjust and make accommodations for people with gambling problems and gluttony issues". 

What would that look like? Education on the dangers of gambling and gluttony? Education feels different than "making accommodations" but wanted to make sure I understood specifically what you mean on "make accommodations".

I actually didn't say the bolded. The poster I responded to did. My comment too them was tongue and cheek because I had an assumption of were that poster was going with their comments and that is where it went. Maybe a little bit my bad too. 

Yes I do think we should make more accommodations for those especially for food. It is pretty well known that most of the quickest, cheapest and convenient options are the worst for people. That should change. 

 

[FairWarning]

Yes I do think we should make more accommodations for those especially for food. It is pretty well known that most of the quickest, cheapest and convenient options are the worst for people. That should change. 

Some of the bigger donors are Coke, Pepsi, and mondelez (nabisco).  

 

[Joe Bryant]

I actually didn't say the bolded. The poster I responded to did. My comment too them was tongue and cheek because I had an assumption of were that poster was going with their comments and that is where it went. Maybe a little bit my bad too. 

Yes I do think we should make more accommodations for those especially for food. It is pretty well known that most of the quickest, cheapest and convenient options are the worst for people. That should change. 

Thank you. I should have been more clear.

The poster said, "So are you saying that society should adjust and make accommodations for people with gambling problems and gluttony issues? 

And you replied to them, "Exactly. Thanks for your help."

I was trying to make sure I understood what you meant for specifically what "make accommodations" looked like there.

I'm not sure on the food. If prepackaged fruits and vegetables were as quick, cheap and convenient as junk food, I don't know how we make people choose the healthy options. 

For gambling, what do you think making accommodations might look like? 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm not sure if this is what @Gatorman was thinking on the OP, but I often think on this question about choice, and if the person really has a choice, with regard to things some people in society see as harmful.

Alcohol, recreational marijuana, gambling. That kind of thing.

The argument I see in favor of most of those type things are "Yes, they can be abused. And children aren't able to make proper choices here. But there is role where personal responsibility has to be in play for adults."

What do folks think of this?

 

[timschochet]

I'm not sure if this is what @Gatorman was thinking on the OP, but I often think on this question about choice, and if the person really has a choice, with regard to things some people in society see as harmful.

Alcohol, recreational marijuana, gambling. That kind of thing.

The argument I see in favor of most of those type things are "Yes, they can be abused. And children aren't able to make proper choices here. But there is role where personal responsibility has to be in play for adults."

What do folks think of this?

Joe, as I have revealed here before, my wife is an alcoholic, she’s been sober for 5 years now, and I have been pretty heavily involved in AA and Al-Anon as a result. 
 

My wife is not responsible for being an alcoholic. That is a disease. However she is responsible for the actions she took while she was drunk or trying to get drunk. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Everyone struggles with certain things and excel at other things. Just because eating healthy or not gambling is easy for you doesn't make it easy for everyone. We are all wired differently. 

You first brought up gambling. Not sure why you thought my question about making accommodations for gambling issues was anything other than a question about making accommodations for gambling issues as a presumed external factor. 

I actually thought you were legit answering yes, since you seemed obviously empathetic to the plight of the gambler. 

If you were being sarcastic and dont think we should accommodate why on earth even bring that scenario up? 

When you said yes, I legit thought you were being honest. Most people would totally dance around such a thing because nobody would want to admit that we should be cool with that. 

It seems now that I can put you in the dance around camp since joe asked about gambling and you are obviously moving away from any discussion on it.

 

[msudaisy26]

Thank you. I should have been more clear.

The poster said, "So are you saying that society should adjust and make accommodations for people with gambling problems and gluttony issues? 

And you replied to them, "Exactly. Thanks for your help."

I was trying to make sure I understood what you meant for specifically what "make accommodations" looked like there.

I'm not sure on the food. If prepackaged fruits and vegetables were as quick, cheap and convenient as junk food, I don't know how we make people choose the healthy options. 

For gambling, what do you think making accommodations might look like? 

I am not sure about gambling. I just used it in my example, but I am not a big gambler and don't really know what type of programs or fail safes that are in place to help gambling addicts or limiting their exposure to it.

Hearing, seeing and reading about the amount issues we have with gambling addiction, it is clear to me we can do more and need to do better. 

 

[msudaisy26]

You first brought up gambling. Not sure why you thought my question about making accommodations for gambling issues was anything other than a question about making accommodations for gambling issues as a presumed external factor. 

I actually thought you were legit answering yes, since you seemed obviously empathetic to the plight of the gambler. 

If you were being sarcastic and dont think we should accommodate why on earth even bring that scenario up? 

When you said yes, I legit thought you were being honest. Most people would totally dance around such a thing because nobody would want to admit that we should be cool with that. 

It seems now that I can put you in the dance around camp since joe asked about gambling and you are obviously moving away from any discussion on it.

You can put me in any camp you want. I just picked some random examples. It just happen to be gambling and bad food. Sorry... I guess?

I did legit answer your question the first time, then you came up with some absurd hypothetical about people that don't gamble giving their money to people that gamble too much when they need it so I assumed you weren't serious so neither was I. Hence why I answered exactly the same without any thought. 

Joe asked me about gambling an hour ago. I got busy and just answered it. Again sorry I wasn't quick enough for you. I will try to answer more quickly in the future to fullfil your online reading needs. 

 

[jm192]

I'm not sure if this is what @Gatorman was thinking on the OP, but I often think on this question about choice, and if the person really has a choice, with regard to things some people in society see as harmful.

Alcohol, recreational marijuana, gambling. That kind of thing.

The argument I see in favor of most of those type things are "Yes, they can be abused. And children aren't able to make proper choices here. But there is role where personal responsibility has to be in play for adults."

What do folks think of this?

I agree with @timschochet that addiction is a disease.  Many people who got hooked on opiates were unnecessarily prescribed them by their doctors.  And some people are prone to addiction, while others are not.  So I don't think the addiction itself is simply a "you made bad choices."  Now if you're addicted to methamphetamine or heroine--probably a bad decisioin to try it.  But again, a lot of people try drugs and don't get addicted.  TL;DR, people don't choose addiction.  

I do think people make decisions to put themselves in bad situation.  If you're a recovering alcoholic and hang out in bars, or hang out with people that drink--that's a bad decision.  If you're quitting smoking but always go outside with the smokers for the smoke break--probably a bad decision.  And that sort of stuff is where personal responsibility comes into play.  

And Tim is correct, people should be responsible for their actions under the influence or while trying to obtain whatever/do whatever they're addicted to.

 

[parasaurolophus]

You can put me in any camp you want. I just picked some random examples. It just happen to be gambling and bad food. Sorry... I guess?

I did legit answer your question the first time, then you came up with some absurd hypothetical about people that don't gamble giving their money to people that gamble too much when they need it so I assumed you weren't serious so neither was I. Hence why I answered exactly the same without any thought. 

Joe asked me about gambling an hour ago. I got busy and just answered it. Again sorry I wasn't quick enough for you. I will try to answer more quickly in the future to fullfil your online reading needs. 

Lol. Very defensive.

I will learn to just disregard your nonsense posts in the future. 

 

[msudaisy26]

Lol. Very defensive.

I will learn to just disregard your nonsense posts in the future. 

Likewise. 

 

[Gatorman]

I'm not sure if this is what @Gatorman was thinking on the OP, but I often think on this question about choice, and if the person really has a choice, with regard to things some people in society see as harmful.

Alcohol, recreational marijuana, gambling. That kind of thing.

The argument I see in favor of most of those type things are "Yes, they can be abused. And children aren't able to make proper choices here. But there is role where personal responsibility has to be in play for adults."

What do folks think of this?

Hey joe, not exactly, but it is also an interesting topic

my post is about the concept that is really more of a conceit that we have full freedom to choose our outcomes when a lot of the “rules of the game” are tilted in favor of those with means. Class in this country is kind of a nono but it really is hard in American society to move from one class to another, and that isn’t even touching upon the racial aspect of it. 
 

your interpretation is of Vice to a certain extent (with class mixed in). Some people have personalities that make them susceptible to Vice and the argument of when them succumbing to that Vice is a choice or not (vs a disease) is an interesting one but not exactly what I was expressing in my initial post. 
 

Both are interesting points fyi.