They gotta do something about the reffing ?! (1 Viewer)

[Stinkin Ref]

What about the 99% of the other plays?  They screw them up all the time and I believe the reason is their relying on replay and that replay has lessoned the quality of officiating over time.

I don't think they are really  "relying" on replay for the other 99% at all to be honest....each team gets two challenges (an extra one if both challenges are "successful")....so in theory only 6 "other" plays in a game could be challenged and "fixed" by replay....so IMO, they really are trying to do the best they can at that very moment on the other 99% ....heck even on scoring plays or turnovers, there probably isn't a much better feeling for a ref than to have replay show they got it right.....so they are dialed in on those too...

but they do know on potential turnover plays it is best to "let the turnover play....play itself out" instead of killing the play.....and on scoring plays to go ahead and call it a score....in a way, they are trying to help the coach not have to use the red flag on those plays.... if that makes sense....

 

[JohnnyU]

I don't think they are really  "relying" on replay for the other 99% at all to be honest....each team gets two challenges (an extra one if both challenges are "successful")....so in theory only 6 "other" plays in a game could be challenged and "fixed" by replay....so IMO, they really are trying to do the best they can at that very moment on the other 99% ....heck even on scoring plays or turnovers, there probably isn't a much better feeling for a ref than to have replay show they got it right.....so they are dialed in on those too...

but they do know on potential turnover plays it is best to "let the turnover play....play itself out" instead of killing the play.....and on scoring plays to go ahead and call it a score....in a way, they are trying to help the coach not have to use the red flag on those plays.... if that makes sense....

I disagree.  I believe bad officiating exists on plenty of non-scoring / non-turnover plays and the reason is they have become less efficient in their officiating over time and the reason is instant replay has given them a crutch, just my opinion and I can respect those who disagree.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I disagree.  I believe bad officiating exists on plenty of non-scoring / non-turnover plays and the reason is they have become less efficient in their officiating over time and the reason is instant replay has given them a crutch, just my opinion and I can respect those who disagree.

but thats the thing.....outside of scoring plays or turnover plays..... you are only talking about a possibility of SIX plays during an entire game that can be overturned....

and in fact....last year was the first time that over 50% of the reviews were reversed....so they have even been getting most of them right to begin with.....since 1999 only 39% of the reviews have been overturned....increased technology has allowed more plays to be reversed than it has in the early years of replay...

 

[JohnnyU]

and in fact....last year was the first time that over 50% of the reviews were reversed....so they have even been getting most of them right to begin with.....since 1999 only 39% of the reviews have been overturned....increased technology has allowed more plays to be reversed than it has in the early years of replay...

I wouldn’t call 50% reversal rate a compliment to referees.  That’s horrible.  They should be getting over 95% of the calls right.

 

[zed2283]

I watch football games for the refs and have Jeff Triplette on my fantasy team.

Phil Luckett and I will see you in the championship. 

 

[facook]

59 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:
I don't think they are really  "relying" on replay for the other 99% at all to be honest....each team gets two challenges (an extra one if both challenges are "successful")....so in theory only 6 "other" plays in a game could be challenged and "fixed" by replay....so IMO, they really are trying to do the best they can at that very moment on the other 99% ....heck even on scoring plays or turnovers, there probably isn't a much better feeling for a ref than to have replay show they got it right.....so they are dialed in on those too...

but they do know on potential turnover plays it is best to "let the turnover play....play itself out" instead of killing the play.....and on scoring plays to go ahead and call it a score....in a way, they are trying to help the coach not have to use the red flag on those plays.... if that makes sense....
Expand  

I disagree.  I believe bad officiating exists on plenty of non-scoring / non-turnover plays and the reason is they have become less efficient in their officiating over time and the reason is instant replay has given them a crutch, just my opinion and I can respect those who disagree.

I 100% with JohnnyU here.  My theory is that the refs using that IR "crutch" has made them worse at their jobs overall.  Think about it: if you walked with a crutch for say....10% of the time...would you be a stronger walker overall, or a weaker walker overall?  They are no longer expected to get the call right on every play.  Therefore they are wrong far too much.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I wouldn’t call 50% reversal rate a compliment to referees.  That’s horrible.  They should be getting over 95% of the calls right.

in a whole game, they do get a lot right.....not sure what the percentage is....but it might be close to 95%.....problem is the 5% is the only part people focus on....lol

and that 50% is just on reviewed calls....not all calls throughout the game....advances in technology have given replay better and better looks over the years and there are more cameras, like in the pylons and first down markers.....so more "missed calls" are getting corrected instead of hearing "not enough conclusive evidence to overturn" or what not....which is actually a good thing....I get it....from the sofa we all get at least 95% of them right....its pretty easy.....but on the field at full speed is a totally different animal, and to be honest I think they do a pretty good job overall....and the NFL hasn't made it any easier on them thats for sure with all of the things they want called like the over the top emphasis on roughing the passer, etc....

 

[JohnnyU]

in a whole game, they do get a lot right.....not sure what the percentage is....but it might be close to 95%.....problem is the 5% is the only part people focus on....lol

and that 50% is just on reviewed calls....not all calls throughout the game....advances in technology have given replay better and better looks over the years and there are more cameras, like in the pylons and first down markers.....so more "missed calls" are getting corrected instead of hearing "not enough conclusive evidence to overturn" or what not....which is actually a good thing....I get it....from the sofa we all get at least 95% of them right....its pretty easy.....but on the field at full speed is a totally different animal, and to be honest I think they do a pretty good job overall....and the NFL hasn't made it any easier on them thats for sure with all of the things they want called like the over the top emphasis on roughing the passer, etc....

I suppose I’ll end the ping pong game here, because I simply disagree with you on a couple points.  I do agree they need to do something about roughing the passer calls.  Some of them are ridiculous.  It’s not like players can instantly stop.   Yes, some of them are obvious, but a lot shouldn’t be called.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I 100% with JohnnyU here.  My theory is that the refs using that IR "crutch" has made them worse at their jobs overall.  Think about it: if you walked with a crutch for say....10% of the time...would you be a stronger walker overall, or a weaker walker overall?  They are no longer expected to get the call right on every play.  Therefore they are wrong far too much.

they are still expected to get every call right....that always has been and always will be the expectation....as mentioned they get evaluated on every play in every game...positioning/judgment/mechanics/etc.....downgraded if they miss too many.....downgraded even if they get it right but were in bad position....etc....

the refs know that replay is only "for sure" there for possible turnovers and scoring plays.....it may not be available on every play if both teams are out of challenges/timeouts....so there is no "crutch" on the "other" plays....and if there is a crutch, that crutch costs a coach/team a challenge and potentially a timeout......which are like gold....refs don't want them to have to use them...

people don't seem to understand that refs would prefer NOT to have ANY calls reviewed....that would be a victory for the refs if they got through a game with no reviews.....that means people thought they got em right....which they actually do most of the time and nobody says a word about that....but all hell breaks loose if you don't.....I know everybody is perfect at all of their jobs too right?...sofa refs never miss a call...

 

[facook]

they are still expected to get every call right....that always has been and always will be the expectation....as mentioned they get evaluated on every play in every game...positioning/judgment/mechanics/etc.....downgraded if they miss too many.....downgraded even if they get it right but were in bad position....etc....

the refs know that replay is only "for sure" there for possible turnovers and scoring plays.....it may not be available on every play if both teams are out of challenges/timeouts....so there is no "crutch" on the "other" plays....and if there is a crutch, that crutch costs a coach/team a challenge and potentially a timeout......which are like gold....refs don't want them to have to use them...

people don't seem to understand that refs would prefer NOT to have ANY calls reviewed....that would be a victory for the refs if they got through a game with no reviews.....that means people thought they got em right....which they actually do most of the time and nobody says a word about that....but all hell breaks loose if you don't.....I know everybody is perfect at all of their jobs too right?...sofa refs never miss a call...

Correct, the crutch is not available on every play.  But getting used to having the crutch at all makes them worse at their jobs overall.  They just aren't as sharp.  Just my opinion.

ETA: And no they are NOT expected to get every call right.  That's why they have the default of calling it a turnover or td and letting IR sort it out.

 

[The Show]

…. and so it continues.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It's too late.  They tried.  They tried to get fulltime refs.  They tried to make it so they could discipline refs for poor performance during the season.  A few weeks with the replacement refs and all the fans started crying and begging for the regular refs back, forgetting that the regular refs were just as bad.

There is likely a pretty large overlap between the people saying "we need to fix the refs" now and the people that were saying "just do whatever it takes to get the refs back" then.

 

[Ghost Rider]

A lot of the problem is lack of consistency on judgment calls from crew to crew. 

Remember the Bears/Steelers game earlier this year where a Bear was flagged for taunting for briefly motioning towards the Steelers bench, and by an official no less who threw a hip check on the Bear before throwing the flag.  Can you imagine a referee in hockey going out of his way to make contact with a hockey player?? 

Meanwhile, Tom Brady runs up to a Saints coach last night and apparently yelled at him to go f himself and that is just fine according to NFL officials. 

It's a clown show with NFL officiating currently.  Yes, it is a hard job, and yes, they had to work their way up, but no one cares.  They have a job to do and they as a collective whole are not doing it well. 

 

[JIMGET]

A lot of the problem is lack of consistency on judgment calls from crew to crew. 

Remember the Bears/Steelers game earlier this year where a Bear was flagged for taunting for briefly motioning towards the Steelers bench, and by an official no less who threw a hip check on the Bear before throwing the flag.  Can you imagine a referee in hockey going out of his way to make contact with a hockey player?? 

Meanwhile, Tom Brady runs up to a Saints coach last night and apparently yelled at him to go f himself and that is just fine according to NFL officials. 

It's a clown show with NFL officiating currently.  Yes, it is a hard job, and yes, they had to work their way up, but no one cares.  They have a job to do and they as a collective whole are not doing it well. 

Yup...so bad...soooo bad....but they don't care cause people keep watching....the NFL shield is unstoppable...fairness does not matter

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Hey Everyone, I have a friend who works as an NFL referee out of the studio/HQ in New York and I thought I could do something once that was responsible and invite him into this thread since they oversee a lot of these crucial calls on Sundays. 

His name is Bill Pitman and he is going to join us via live feed from New York and if you click right here I'm sure you'll agree this guy is top notch and happy to answer all of your questions. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

If it's the last 5 minutes of a close game, that lineman you think might have held better be tearing the guys jersey off, bc I want the game decided on the field. Scott Novak is not the reason I watch.

Quit ####### injecting yourself into the narrative. Games should not be decided on ticky tack bull#### holding calls that kills a team' drive as they are going for the go ahead score. Sick of the referees and questionable calls suddenly changing the momentum of a game.

 

[The Show]

If it's the last 5 minutes of a close game, that lineman you think might have held better be tearing the guys jersey off, bc I want the game decided on the field. Scott Novak is not the reason I watch.

Quit ####### injecting yourself into the narrative. Games should not be decided on ticky tack bull#### holding calls that kills a team' drive as they are going for the go ahead score. Sick of the referees and questionable calls suddenly changing the momentum of a game.

This !!!

 

[apalmer]

If it's the last 5 minutes of a close game, that lineman you think might have held better be tearing the guys jersey off, bc I want the game decided on the field. Scott Novak is not the reason I watch.

Quit ####### injecting yourself into the narrative. Games should not be decided on ticky tack bull#### holding calls that kills a team' drive as they are going for the go ahead score. Sick of the referees and questionable calls suddenly changing the momentum of a game.

Switch to hockey.

If a ref doesn't call a hold that prevents a sack on a play that turns into a TD, I don't care whether it's 5 minutes into the game or with 30 seconds left. I want the game decided on the field by who plays the best, not by who gets the last chance to break the rules.

 

[DocHolliday]

Yup...so bad...soooo bad....but they don't care cause people keep watching....the NFL shield is unstoppable...fairness does not matter

I haven’t watched any football since thanksgiving.  It’s been nice.  The NFL is unwatchable to me.   I think I am done with FF after 20 years so I can watch a few games every year and not really care about the outcome.  

 

[The Duff Man]

If you want entertainment and the chance to see top athletes make amazing football plays the NFL is very enjoyable. 
If you want a fair sporting event that is consistently refereed where the outcome will mostly be decided by the teams this sport is not for you. 

 

[The Show]

2 plays stick out in my mind from last night. And one of them is going to drive Nagy absolutely nuts today when he sees it as it would me. 
 

3rd and long and a great defensive play in the middle to break up a what would’ve been completion to Ty Conklin but instead called a hit to the head on defenceless receiver. Awful awful call. 

The other was called on a run to the right by Cook. The defender dove which I thought was a great intuitive play on his part to trip up Dalvin before he got to the outside to make a big gain. But this was instead called a penalty for a low hit on one of the lineman who just happened to be in the way. If I and the broadcasting crew can see this why can’t multiple officials right up close on the field see this?! If these people hired by the NFL as apparent professionals at their craft don’t have the intelligence to see what the defender was trying to do here there’s a huge f&@cking problem. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

 If I and the broadcasting crew can see this why can’t multiple officials right up close on the field see this?! 

Because being at eye level is different than having a bird's eye view?

 

[The Show]

Because being at eye level is different than having a bird's eye view?

Great pt! Then maybe the games should be officiated from that standpoint. Not joking. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Great pt! Then maybe the games should be officiated from that standpoint. Not joking. 

I'd agree. But seeing how often they botch replay review, I'm not sure getting more booth review involved would make the game more enjoyable. 

 

[ipljeff]

Use technology for ball placements. Similar to tennis.

Have one booth ref for each on the field ref. Booth has the video feeds and xbox controller. Both must agree on the call for it to be official.

No more refs on camera or announcing calls. Just put the call on the ticker and keep the game moving.  We don't tune in to see a refs face on camera. 

 

[Gally]

I do know that I am going to have my QB quickly take a knee anytime a defender is starting to tackle me and jump right back up so the tackle still occurs to get the roughing call every time.  Take that to the bank brochachos.

 

[The Show]

I do know that I am going to have my QB quickly take a knee anytime a defender is starting to tackle me and jump right back up so the tackle still occurs to get the roughing call every time.  Take that to the bank brochachos.

Haha too funny 

 

[brettdj]

The other was called on a run to the right by Cook. The defender dove which I thought was a great intuitive play on his part to trip up Dalvin before he got to the outside to make a big gain. But this was instead called a penalty for a low hit on one of the lineman who just happened to be in the way. If I and the broadcasting crew can see this why can’t multiple officials right up close on the field see this?! If these people hired by the NFL as apparent professionals at their craft don’t have the intelligence to see what the defender was trying to do here there’s a huge f&@cking problem. 

This was a block below the waist by the defense.  It does not matter what we was trying to do.  He hit a player that was not the ball carrier below the waist.  

 

[brettdj]

One of the problems today, is the announcers, coaches, and players do not know the rules.  The announcers (other than the former officials) think they know the rules.

I get this at the High school and NCAA D2 level.  Coaches and players will complain about a call.  Then make a statement about it.  That statement will not be the rule at this level.  Such as for High School, the coach will yell the QB was outside the tackle box when he threw the ball away.  In high school that does not matter, the QB needs to throw the ball in the area of a receiver.

DPI must be in one of these categories or else it is not DPI.  Arm Bar, Grab and restrict, not playing the ball with contact, grab and turn, cut off and playing thru the receiver.

OPI: Creating separation, pick, blocking downfield, and playing thru the defender.

As an NCAA official, I spend 10-20 hours a week in addition to my full time job, outside of game day and travel.  I take at least one test each week (8 normal questions and 2 replay questions) Plus watch a film review from the CFO/NCAA. I have every play graded from the film, typically 140 plays per game.  If I get too many incorrect calls on the season, I will not be invited back next season.  If I get some items wrong (downs, 12 on the field) I will get pulled off one of my games.  

We usually get the test on Thursday and the answers on Monday.  Some crews will discuss the questions during pregame. Here is a sample question

2/10@B-30 Team A completes a pass for a 5-yard gain. After the down is over, Team A sends in three substitutes, and three players begin to leave the field. A88, who participated in the previous play, trail the three replace players toward the Team A sideline. The three replace players continue into the team area, but A88 stops and sets up on the line of scrimmage very close to the sideline. After the ball is snapped A88 runs down the sideline and catches a forward pass at the B-10 and runs into the end zone. 

Ruling: Requires 4 items for the next time the ball is to be put in play (Team in possession, down and distance, yard to get first down, and clock status-ready/snap/running/no clock/10-second runoff/play clock)

Answer:  A, 3/20, B-40, snap 25 seconds.  

Reasoning(Mondays answer sheet):  Unsportsmanlike conduct by A88 for unfair tactics: using the substitution process to deceive the opponents.  This is a live ball foul and is penalized 15 yards from the previous spot (Rule 9-2-2-b). The clock will start on the snap (Rule 3-3-2-c)

 

[The Show]

Holy F$CK!!!

Can we have any consistency?!?

 

[Ghost Rider]

This is where someone just has to defend the officials and tell us how hard they work and blah, blah, blah. To miss a call that obvious is just gross negligence.  And it happens many times every single week.  

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Holy F$CK!!!

Can we have any consistency?!?

no

 

[Harry Frogfish]

That non-PI was so blatant and at such a critical time, it's hard to believe it happens.  On National TV no less.  Game-changing, one play.  At the very least, we were robbed of a great finish.

Needs to be more accountability.  They should have to answer questions after the game like coaches and players do.

 

[Harry Frogfish]

This is where someone just has to defend the officials and tell us how hard they work and blah, blah, blah. To miss a call that obvious is just gross negligence.  And it happens many times every single week.  

Oh the bush league refs will be here soon enough, lecturing about the countless hours it takes for certification to blow calls or spot a ball like it's up there with removing a brain tumor.

 

[BassNBrew]

 I agree the hits on the QB thing has gone completely overboard....but in this league it is hard enough to find 32 competent QB's....let alone when you get into the 33-64 range...the NFL is going to do everything they can to prevent us from having to watch Mason Rudolph vs. Tim Boyle.....

This is really on the teams and the collective bargaining agreement limiting practice and roster sizes.  There's no reason why there can't be 100 competent QBs like there are RBs.  If you came up with some crazy rule that a second QB has to play the entire 2nd quarter, you would see this performance gap shrink.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

This is really on the teams and the collective bargaining agreement limiting practice and roster sizes.  There's no reason why there can't be 100 competent QBs like there are RBs.  If you came up with some crazy rule that a second QB has to play the entire 2nd quarter, you would see this performance gap shrink.

In addition, simply take the skirts off of them. I've been saying it for years, the biggest reason we have so many bad QBs is that the rules (over-protection, in addition to practice and roster sizes) make it so it is almost impossible to develop any non-starters, and they don't get game experience, either.

 

[zed2283]

In addition, simply take the skirts off of them. I've been saying it for years, the biggest reason we have so many bad QBs is that the rules (over-protection, in addition to practice and roster sizes) make it so it is almost impossible to develop any non-starters, and they don't get game experience, either.

They've always talked about how these great QBs demand every snap in practice like it's some wonderful attribute. I just think it means they're selfish as ####.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Nice of the officials to show what a clown show they are yesterday in the big Christmas afternoon game.  Some of those non-calls against Cleveland were terrible.  I had no rooting interest, but the Packers got away with blatant PI on two interceptions and were allowed to beat the crap out of Mayfield on two sacks (when things 1/10 as bad are flagged all of the time these days).  Pathetic. 

 

[JohnnyU]

Nice of the officials to show what a clown show they are yesterday in the big Christmas afternoon game.  Some of those non-calls against Cleveland were terrible.  I had no rooting interest, but the Packers got away with blatant PI on two interceptions and were allowed to beat the crap out of Mayfield on two sacks (when things 1/10 as bad are flagged all of the time these days).  Pathetic. 

Frankly I don't see how they don't call the DPI on Green Bay for that pass to Donovan Peoples-Jones.  It looked like blatant intentional favoritism to the Packers.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Frankly I don't see how they don't call the DPI on Green Bay for that pass to Donovan Peoples-Jones.  It looked like blatant intentional favoritism to the Packers.

I do not think there is any conspiracy.   While I think certain teams and players are more prone to get the benefit of the doubt, there is no conspiracy.  The officials are not on the take; they are just not as competent as they should be. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Frankly I don't see how they don't call the DPI on Green Bay for that pass to Donovan Peoples-Jones.  It looked like blatant intentional favoritism to the Packers.

I do not think there is any conspiracy.   While I think certain teams and players are more prone to get the benefit of the doubt, there is no conspiracy.  The officials are not on the take; they are just not as competent as they should be. 

I don't think the refs were overtly or covertly calling a one-sided game.  I think they were allowing lots of rough stuff in pass coverage like the trip of Denzel on Davante and Greedy locking Lazard's arm under his elbow on that fantastic one-handed grab.  

What I object to is with a HOF QB playing in his prime and an uber-large and strong ALL-PRO WR playing in his prime giving them push-offs on every throw where its just not fair for DBs as opposed to a one-armed Covid stricken struggling QB throwing to 1st and 2nd year guys who don't know the routes and can't break out from physical DB play causing multiple turnovers.

The refs called the game fast-and-loose allowing DBs to get away with murder but by calling it that way they gave the advantage to the home team and that simply was not fair IMHO.

 

[BigJim®]

I do not think there is any conspiracy.   While I think certain teams and players are more prone to get the benefit of the doubt, there is no conspiracy.  The officials are not on the take; they are just not as competent as they should be. 

Agreed it is not a conspiracy. That would suggest a secretive plan. There's nothing secretive about the treatment opposing teams get in Green Bay. 

 

[zed2283]

Can someone explain to me the logistics of downfield holding where you get penalized but somehow still end up with a 1st and 3?

 

[DropKick]

Can someone explain to me the logistics of downfield holding where you get penalized but somehow still end up with a 1st and 3?

I could see 2nd and 3...  When did this happen?

 

[zed2283]

I could see 2nd and 3...  When did this happen?

I can't provide any specifics, but it happens all the time.

 

[DropKick]

I can't provide any specifics, but it happens all the time.

Downfield offensive holding is 10 yards from the spot of the foul.  Let's say a first down play picks up 25 yards.  However, they call holding 17 yards from the original line of scrimmage.   The ball is backed up 10 yards from that spot and you are now 3 yards short of the original first down marker.  Off the top of my had, I would have said the down counts, creating a 2nd and 3.  However, it appears they replay the down.  Hence a 1st and 3. 

 

[brettdj]

Downfield offensive holding is 10 yards from the spot of the foul.  Let's say a first down play picks up 25 yards.  However, they call holding 17 yards from the original line of scrimmage.   The ball is backed up 10 yards from that spot and you are now 3 yards short of the original first down marker.  Off the top of my had, I would have said the down counts, creating a 2nd and 3.  However, it appears they replay the down.  Hence a 1st and 3. 

Correct.  Only penalties that contain a Loss of Down(illegal kick or forward pass) do not repeat the down.  Defensive holding has an automatic first down if a forward pass crosses the neutral zone on the play and the hold held an eligible receiver.

 

[ChiefD]

Can someone explain the whole clock running/out of bounds thing?

I swear watching games the last few months that a player will run out of bounds but the refs still wind the clock. I thought running out of bounds was an automatic stoppage of play?

It seems like this happens early in the games and then in the 4th quarter when they run out of bounds the clock stops. What gives here? 

I know I'm not crazy because this has happened a ton in Chiefs games this year and everyone I ask can't explain it.

 

[zed2283]

Can someone explain the whole clock running/out of bounds thing?

I swear watching games the last few months that a player will run out of bounds but the refs still wind the clock. I thought running out of bounds was an automatic stoppage of play?

It seems like this happens early in the games and then in the 4th quarter when they run out of bounds the clock stops. What gives here? 

I know I'm not crazy because this has happened a ton in Chiefs games this year and everyone I ask can't explain it.

Many years ago now they changed the rules so the clock only stops when going out of bounds within the last 2 minutes of the first half and the last 5 minutes of the second half.

 

[ChiefD]

Many years ago now they changed the rules so the clock only stops when going out of bounds within the last 2 minutes of the first half and the last 5 minutes of the second half.

Great, thanks.

Guess I never paid much attention to it until this year.