Thanks @ChiefD
I want to make sure I understand. Can you elaborate on the juxtaposition and what you think is interesting?
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This place is going to die of fear. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter matuski
- Start date
I want to make sure I understand. Can you elaborate on the juxtaposition and what you think is interesting?
El Floppo
Footballguy
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Take that to the bank, Bromingo.
bigbottom said:
I know everyone loves this. Nothing I can say will come off as anything but whining so I know I just need to take it and move on. Same now as I did back then. Naturally this is more personal for me as it's not a screen name or anonymous for me.
But wanted to say this on the "Jews getting kicked off for non Christian views" thing. One of the primary things I tried to do with the forums from the very start was to avoid giving that kind of impression at all cost. It literally was one of the top things I wanted to make sure I did with the forums.
I think I've been pretty open about my faith as a Christian. And not forcing any kind of weird exclusionary thing on the forum when it comes to faith. Clearly I failed massively there. I apologize for ever giving anyone reason to write something like that.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
That song was written over a decade ago I think and there were at least a half a dozen co-authors. I know there was a story behind that line (there was a story behind every line) but simply don’t recall it (that wasn’t one of my contributions). That song was a magnum opus that took countless hours by several people to put together. It is meant to be tongue in cheek, and if I were you, I would choose to view it as nothing more than a tribute to all of the awesome and hilarious stories to come out of the FFA. And if anything it is all the evidence you need to support your perspective that things are largely the same as they always were. People were complaining about the very same things ten years ago!
Thanks. I truly wish I could see it as something other than discouragement and failure.
Given the responses, I think it's pretty clear what I've created there with people giving standing ovations to the song with lines about how I suspend Jews for not having Christian views.
I shared your post with some real life friends that know me this morning and are fascinated by the forum. The response was:
"I'm sorry. That's awful. Is this hurtful, discouraging, just part of business? That and ten more things?
You have thick skin."
I told him those were pretty much the exact mix of feelings I have. He knows me well.
Except I think my friend thinks I have way thicker skin than I really do.
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And for sure. I know this is just me whining. I don't want to do more of that so I'll try to back out here publicly. If you want to ask me anything on it, please shoot me a PM.
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scorchy
Footballguy
Man, I hope Happy Schnapps is still out there somewhere motoring along in his red pickup truck. Loved that guy...bigbottom said:
Shocked that I remembered the login for WetDream after more than a decade, but must have missed which one of you jerks were at the controls when he got permabanned.
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simey
Footballguy
I couldn't tell exactly what was said in that line until you pointed it out, and I re-listened to it. It didn't say you specifically did it, and it talked about mods pruning right before the line. I don't recall anyone Jewish being kicked off for having Christian views, but as Biggy said it was meant to be tongue in cheek, and it was written by multiple people over a decade ago. It was probably an exaggerated play off an incident and it happened to rhyme. It could be regarding someone who is Jewish and whined cause they were a bad seed and got suspended, and claimed they were suspended from being Jewish. There are some loons here. Anyway, I'm sorry it hurt your feelings. I'm pretty sure that was not the intent of the song.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Sure. And this is just my personal observations on how I perceive you.Joe Bryant said:
From all accounts you are a good person. You are active in your local community and have also created an amazing community here which has provided A LOT of people a respite in their day to interact with like minded people. People who are so different but come together to weave the fabric of this community. And with that community comes:
1. Triumph
2. Failure
3. Personal Loss
4. Help with whatever someone may need
5. Pain
6. Words of advice
7. Prayer
8. Laughter
9. Disagreements
10. Family
And during all these years, there really hasn't been a topic that hasn't been covered. From my observation people here are a lot like me: we can take on all those emotions and things above, take or leave what we need, and come back the next day and do it all over again knowing that my brothers and sisters here are just another group of what I would call friends.
We all have those friends in our lives: the ones we know where we can say things that they might not agree with but at their core they look past that because they are your friend. They can handle all of the above emotions and discussions and come back for more because WE NEED IT as people. As humans. We need interaction however we can get it.
And your words in a lot of those threads shows that you do care. After all, you created this place. But you didn't do it alone.
So when it comes to actions, I see a political forum. A place created specifically to have a place where people can argue. And fight. And vehemently disagree to a point where names are called and people are complaining and people are getting banned. To the point where a dang laughing emoji can't be used by ALL of the community.
And it's a forum where you actively start topics that end up creating discourse and fighting and eventually the bad behavior that starts all of these issues. I want to be clear though: I'm not saying you are fighting and engaging in bad behavior. But the seed gets planted somewhere.
And then this laughing emoji thing happened because of that discourse. You punished all of us because of a few. When you ran your boat company and a worker on the assembly line made a mistake, did you punish the entire workforce or just have a conversation with that one worker?
I know this is a difficult place to moderate. This world is in a precarious place right now. But I also know this forum for the most part is a safe haven for a lot of us and a place we all need. Some of us have met and developed life long, real life friendships from this place.
But removing laughter from here removes a lot of it's soul. And that's just sad to me. Because I know deep down you have a kind-hearted soul. I can see it in your words. But sometimes your actions speak otherwise.
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bushdocda
Footballguy
Yep. And the non psf ones started also turn into a mess. Seems like trying to drive posts to me which is odd when it then leads to the clamps being put on.
I see this song as a tribute to the greatness of the forums but I don't take a lot of this as serious. I wasn't around that time but it was extremely well done and very creative. I would guess many of the lines were based on forum stories and then massaged to rhyme and fit into the themes so not necessarily completely accurate and done more for entertainment purposes.
I think much of the issues nowadays stems for people not being able to laugh at themselves and take it as a joke. It kind of comes down to the intent situation @Joe Bryantposted about around Christmas time. I believe the intent of the song was for laughs and trying to incorporate a bunch of forum stories and posters. Essentially good natured fun......but again I wasn't around at the time it was down and give the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't meant to hurtful but to entertain.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Holy crap that's your Magnum Opus.bigbottom said:
dkp993
Footballguy
Joe, when someone puts as much passion and effort into something as you have done here it’s extraordinary difficult to not take some criticism personally. If you didn’t you wouldn’t be human. Unfortunately it’s a part of leadership done right, it’s the weight a leader has to bear (and for you, or others in your position, it’s amplified when you’re leading Anonymous Internet personalities). The fact it hurts shows how much you care about this place. I appreciate the hell out of that. Thank you for your willingness to carry the burden that comes with this place, it’s truly appreciated.
This entire post was really well said. However I wanted to highlight this paragraph. I thibk this is where things are getting bad. It appears we as people can no longer disagree with a viewpoint and then just move on. Things now get personal and attacks happen rather than just moving on, shaking hands, and staying friends. This is one of the biggest things that elevates tempers and pushes things over the edge. It's like two people can't have a different opinion on anything anymore.
I think this might be why @Joe Bryantfeels attacked and frustrated. He wants this to be a nice place with everyone getting along being able to have discussions and then move on in a friendly way......but people can't seem to do that anymore. Then things get personal and people stop being good to each other and JB needs to step in. I get the frustration and can see why it gets him done.
I appreciate and respect JB and his moderation efforts. I have no problem with what he does. It's his house and I will respect his rules whether I agree with them or not. JB just know that not everyone is against you.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Some people actually have talent and ability. I have nothing.bigbottom said:
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Do some of your wives check your search history or something? You can just look at women in yoga pants on your own. 
PhillipPhoto
Footballguy
People use message boards for discussion.Do some of your wives check your search history or something? You can just look at women in yoga pants on your own.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Joe...I gave it a standing ovation because it's a masterpiece deserving a ton of respect for the humor, craft and hard work born from this crazy, loving community. A clearly tongue in cheek masterpiece- I'm sorry it hits so close to home for you that you're not seeing that. I don't have to agree with every line to respect and commend it...that's how I try to live my life.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
re: the "suspend Jews for not having Christian views" line...
My guess is the word "Jews" was added because it rhymed with "views". The were a lot of Christian themed threads back in the day and when the song was written I think it would have been natural to include a religious theme in the lyrics. I'd guess writing a parody song is a little tough and people don't have days to work on it so when lyrics need to fit and rhyme, when something seems to work you just go with it. I'm sure there were Jewish posters who were banned for posting "non-Christian", over-the-line stuff but them being banned had nothing to do with their religion. You've read something into that line that's not there or at least wasn't intended to be there by the author. And as evidenced by long bans for kind of innocuous posts you've done that around here a fair amount. You have to say it's a little ironic that this parody song was kind of about that and here we are 10 years later and you're viewing the song in the harshest light possible. Life imitating art.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
I suspect it had more to do with something innocuous like bagels or delis. I asked Mr R, but he doesn't remember.
I miss Shining Path.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
I think of the PSF as a toy you bring home for the dogs. Sure you were well meaning, and sure there are times when it's played with nicely, but overall it leads to fights and gnashing of teeth. Take the toy away and we'll have a much more peaceful community.
zamboni
Footballguy
Joe, if it makes you feel better, as one of the (I’m guessing) relatively few Jewish posters here, I’ve never felt excluded here because of my religion. I can’t account for what may have happened regarding said bannings, but I’m guessing there was much more going on there behind the scenes.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
I completely disagree with this. If the PSF disappears, the politics will spill into the FFA and people like me will abandon it. In this day and age, people cannot contain themselves from being political/turning things into political issues. Places like this need to provide an outlet for it or else it will corrupt the rest of the community. Making a separate forum for politics was one of the best decisions Joe and company ever made. I avoided the FFA for years until the political discussion went elsewhere.
The only way to make getting rid of the PSF work would be to have heavy moderation in the other forums that quickly deletes political posts and bans repeat offenders. I don’t think Joe and the other mods want to do that, and I don’t blame them.
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UncleZen
Footballguy
I say let those that go in the PSF go at their own risk and just let it go. Moderate all of the other forums let the PSF become a free-for-all. If you can't take it, don't go in there. I stopped because the art of debate is almost non-existent over there. I have right and left leaning friends and we are all friends and debate the hot topics all the time. It never gets personal.
As far as the song posted, I'm not sure how anyone thinks Joe could not take it personal. This is his baby.
As far as the song posted, I'm not sure how anyone thinks Joe could not take it personal. This is his baby.
E Street Brat
Footballguy
Pretty typical of the times we now live in.
I remember Joe actually getting a kick out of the parody over a decade ago. Now he's offended by it.
I remember Joe actually getting a kick out of the parody over a decade ago. Now he's offended by it.
Corporation
Angry Bovine
There is no massive failure here. There is not failure at all from a faith perspective. You are an outspoken Christian, but I believe you've always been very upfront about allowing others to express their own views. All anyone has to do is look at almost any thread started on religion, and you will see a predominant response of non Christian views (and some alt accounts purporting to be Christian but stating outlandish views). I as a fellow Christian believe those threads should be allowed to stand as well, as long as people from all sides don't attack each other as some variant of an idiot or immoral person. If anything, I think moderation in those threads is less than normal because you are aware of the perception.
The frustration that some (perhaps many) have is the moderation line that you drew very early on in the process. You asked for it to be PG and for us to be excellent to each other, and it worked. It drew together an amazing community, one that might not have included some posters who appreciate the PG or PG13 perspective rather than the R or NC17 perspective seen most places on the internet. Over time, more and more said something along the lines of "I should be able to say what I want", but that wasn't what the place was built on. The moderation team essentially said "Have a nice season guy", or if you want to do that you can go somewhere else, no hard feelings. But there were hard feelings because people feel entitled to come into the place you built and change the rules to their liking. Yes, you (and the team) alone didn't build the community, it was something that came together organically. But it also wasn't only built by the people who prefer "mature" language and pictures. Rather than just acknowledge that their position and your position on language and personal attacks differ, it gets punched up with a clever "Baby Jesus" reference that implies that if you ban someone, then it is based on religion.
The posted song is really well produced, has a lot of funny lines in it, and the singer (Big Bottom I think if I remember correctly) is really amazing. The line you quoted in the song never registered with me (I'm pretty terrible with lyrics), but it is a really unfair attack. It is akin to someone casually calling someone else a racist or homophobe. I understand why that is hurtful, and I would not categorize it as "whining". If that line wasn't in there and it was just good natured ribbing (which I believe in general the song was done) then maybe we could call it whining
Moderating a free message board is obviously a thankless job and one that is most likely not worth enduring. Thank you for helping build a great community, and for setting guard rails. And thanks for being a good example of a Christian, one who is thankful for the saving grace of God and not of your own works, tolerant of others beliefs even when they do not align with your own.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
Not sure why I'm jumping in on this, but ....
Comedy is a form of flattery. And it's a means to make people laugh and feel good. SNL, for example, makes fun of many different things. I don't even watch it regularly, but we've all seen some skits that poke fun at everything. If SNL chooses to write a skit about something, that doesn't make it a failure of any kind of message or anything of the sort.
This board is filled with adults, most of whom have families and jobs and other things that take time from our lives. That that many people on this board would take the time they took to collaborate and put something like that together (10 years ago, at that) should be celebrated. People don't do that for nothing. So if you, or anyone else was poked fun at, laugh at it and appreciate that someone took the time to even bother with an endeavor like that. Don't have thin skin and think you failed in some sort of message you were trying to convey that you think was lost because of a lyric in a parody song. It's ascribing either bad intent or misunderstanding of what you have here and I'm 100% sure neither were behind that song.
And if we're being honest, that's not the first time that's happened here. I've said this before here, but it's disheartening that you not uncommonly seem to think the worst of people and their intentions here. You post about being sad about things you read here or how you wish "we" weren't a certain way instead of looking at the good things a lot of folks bring to this board.
Being upset about that song is a prime example.
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strykerpks
Footballguy
TLDR I'm an idiot
I would like to clarify my "most people here suck" comment.
I stand by that statement but please let me expound on it. 20, 15, 10, 5 years ago I was a different person. Hell I'm different than last night. 99% of you were as well. ####, we piled on Woz for being a young dumb kid and now he's an upstanding lawyer that I would call in a heartbeat if I ever got in trouble in Arizona (I'd hope he'd take my call). FWIW I'm not piling on Woz, it's just an example. But we were fun back then
There are a number of posters who have left of their own volition because of kids, work, politics, moderation (not gonna lie that's a big issue), and a plethora of of other reasons. I simply don't have the time. I try to check in every day but it's not feasible for me to post even a "Hey whats up with you all?". This weekend I have time so I check in and try to join into the community that I love. And I wanted to update friends on my alcohol issue. Thanks @rockaction for the reminder....I think we should exchange numbers because we could help each other with our recovery but that's a different discussion
The PSF was a necessity. Because of the people who suck. Those that can't take an opposing viewpoint at face value and discuss the point rather than saying "You said X 6 months ago so you're wrong" Hashtag boffsides. You know who you are and you suck and are the reason this corner of the internet is "going downhill"
I have appreciated this community and have lifelong friends from cornholes, establishedboard, side chats etc. You people suck was not all-encompassing. It's simply meant towards people who can't let #### go.
This was a lot of word vomit. I think @ChiefD stated it better than I. However I got some feedback that my words were not cool and I just wanted to clear the air
I would like to clarify my "most people here suck" comment.
I stand by that statement but please let me expound on it. 20, 15, 10, 5 years ago I was a different person. Hell I'm different than last night. 99% of you were as well. ####, we piled on Woz for being a young dumb kid and now he's an upstanding lawyer that I would call in a heartbeat if I ever got in trouble in Arizona (I'd hope he'd take my call). FWIW I'm not piling on Woz, it's just an example. But we were fun back then
There are a number of posters who have left of their own volition because of kids, work, politics, moderation (not gonna lie that's a big issue), and a plethora of of other reasons. I simply don't have the time. I try to check in every day but it's not feasible for me to post even a "Hey whats up with you all?". This weekend I have time so I check in and try to join into the community that I love. And I wanted to update friends on my alcohol issue. Thanks @rockaction for the reminder....I think we should exchange numbers because we could help each other with our recovery but that's a different discussion
The PSF was a necessity. Because of the people who suck. Those that can't take an opposing viewpoint at face value and discuss the point rather than saying "You said X 6 months ago so you're wrong" Hashtag boffsides. You know who you are and you suck and are the reason this corner of the internet is "going downhill"
I have appreciated this community and have lifelong friends from cornholes, establishedboard, side chats etc. You people suck was not all-encompassing. It's simply meant towards people who can't let #### go.
This was a lot of word vomit. I think @ChiefD stated it better than I. However I got some feedback that my words were not cool and I just wanted to clear the air
belljr
Footballguy
I say this as no disrespect to Joe but I don't believe his sense of humor aligns with many on this board. Whether it's the deep sarcasm or the 12 year old locker room dumb ####. As you pointed out this isn't the first time something like this has happened.
Eta: To be more clear there is no right/wrong, I just know most that I "get along with" here has the same type of humor
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Willie Neslon
Footballguy
The actual lyric is "They kicked off all the Jews if they shared their non-Christan views". Joe's interpretation is "I suspend Jews for not having Christian views." Joe's interpretation of the lyric is inaccurate.
Also, I think religious references in the lyric are not meant to be taken literally. "Non-Christian views" refer the type of posts deemed unsavory by the moderators, not anything pertaining to a religion outside of Christianity.
Also, I think religious references in the lyric are not meant to be taken literally. "Non-Christian views" refer the type of posts deemed unsavory by the moderators, not anything pertaining to a religion outside of Christianity.
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BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Joe, I don't know what you set out to do as far as the message board goes. But I think you need some perspective.
Not everyone is going to like you. No one on earth is universally loved or even respected.
Heck, I don't think you and I agree on a lot. I've been suspended once, and I of course think it was completely unjustified. So be it. Here I still am.
But to me, what has been created here on these message boards is far more significant than some fantasy football rankings. That's great that you and others have been able to make a nice living with it. But in the grand scheme of things, who cares?
But look at these boards. People have been helped through divorces, addiction, depression, even the unimaginable loss of their child.
And this community has been there through it all, for better and, more importantly, for worse.
I genuinely believe there are people on these boards that would've killed themselves if not for the companionship and support they've received here.
Just think about that for a second. You should be proud of what you've done.
It is truly amazing. Even if you don't think so, I think it's your legacy.
Try to focus more on all the positive things that have occurred and continue to take place within this community you created.
Nigel
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
It's a tough choice between that and a bigbottom parody song being deemed offensive. bigbottom The kindest and most generous person we have here. I'm in bizarro world when that becomes a bone of contention. Or laughing emojis do. I can't figure out where I am or how I got here.
bigbottom
Footballguy
TheAristocrat
Footballguy
Thank you! (Again)bigbottom said:
bigbottom
Footballguy
Joe: I think you’re an awesome person, and we’ve had some deeply personal interactions over the years, which have been very meaningful to me. So I’m going to do my best here to be a friend and give it to you straight, as I would to any of my closest friends. You’re being ridiculous. I told you, both here and in private messages, that the song was meant to be tongue in cheek. Of course you don’t suspend people for having non-Christian views. I wish I could remember the story behind that line, but it’s facially obvious hyperbole and not to be taken literally. As mentioned upthread, your unwillingness to accept that it was meant to be tongue in cheek, when the person who was involved in its creation is telling you expressly that it was meant to be tongue in cheek, is akin to an example of assuming the worst in others, something you speak out against. You have created something absolutely special here. Something that has allowed a community of people to come together and celebrate the highs in life with one another, while supporting each other during the hardest of times. Surely you know that I understand this as much as anyone. This song is a parody. It is satire. It is hyperbolic and non-literal by design. And it is a celebration of all of the amazing hilarity that has occurred over the years within this small but special community. A community that exists because of you. Your undue (in my opinion) focus on one line in the song, which is obviously not true, is, I think, causing you to miss what is special about the song. And I’ve come to conclude that perhaps you’re missing what is special about this amazing place that you’ve created. And that’s a real shame.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Really good post here. While I’m sure there’s some that think the FF stuff is really important and obviously it’s the business model that supports the boards. What keeps many of us coming back is the community and the people. And unfortunately what we see at times is people leaving and the community taking some hits (laugh emoji). Just think about the countless cornholes that have happened. Some of us have had beers with one another in different countries. We’ve bought from people, had them stay in our homes, meet our families, laughed with, fought with and mourned with.
But it feels like the trolls are winning - the people who don’t even care about this community. The ones who show up daily just to stir things up and laugh at others. I’m not sure there’s an answer so I share in Joe’s discouragement.
That's a shame if you think I'm missing what's special about this place.
From the beginning, I've had the pleasure of a front row seat seeing how special it is.
It's been one of the best and most meaningful things about the business of Footballguys which is mostly unrelated to the Free For All Forum.
It's why this forum is still here given the effort, time and money required every day.
From trying to manage the mess that is the Political Forum, that was created solely to save this forum, to spending the time to try and cultivate a place where friendships and discussion can not just happen but flourish, to paying to keep the platform up and stably running while forgoing ad revenue here because I know how that would go over, to the angry and ugly PMs I get or the hyper ugly posts on the forums about my family that get deleted, it's a lot.
And for a long time all those "costs" have been outweighed by the good that comes from here.
So I feel I'm acutely aware of what makes this place special.
If I can be honest in return with you, I'm sorry you'd question that.
And of course it's not just the one single line in the song or not seeing it's tongue in cheek. That's obvious. It's also obvious no parody gets the standing ovation if people don't think there's some truth to it.
For me, it's just life and how it goes. I don't get the luxury of an anonymous screen name. But that's on me. I should have known the downsides of taking such an active role in the forums from the start and allowing it to be personal. But that's also a part of what's special about the forum for everyone, that it can become personal for them.
Thanks to the folks who've sent messages. I apologize for adding drama.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
I’m conservative/libertarian, but generally don’t feel the need to put my opinions on blast. Ask me a question, I’ll give you my answer from my world view. If you like it, cool. If you don’t, that’s okay too. I’m sure we could find something to agree on.KarmaPolice said:
bigbottom
Footballguy
Im super glad to see the bolded. Thank you Joe. I was getting very concerned by your repeated expressions of discouragement. But with that perspective, you should see that the effort that went in to that song and how it celebrates (in satirical fashion) the FFA’s long and rich history of hilarity is part of what is great and special about what you’ve created, not part of what should be discouraging you.
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