Tiebreaker question.... (2 Viewers)

[levinakl]

Basically, if Ryan Matthews puts up 12 points tonight, we'll have a team with a second tie, which would make them 6-5-2. Would they be subject to a tiebreaker with teams that are 7-6 or would you guys consider them ahead or behind?

I look forward to the responses here, I think the league could be in for some heated debate if that scenario plays out, because the tiebreakers do not address the topic of 1 win versus 2 ties (something that will definitely be addressed for next season)

TIA to all for voting.

 

[JMon348]

They are not the same %. 6-5-2 is .545%. 7-6-0 is 538%

 

[levinakl]

They are not the same %. 6-5-2 is .545%. 7-6-0 is 538%

Unless I'm missing something (and I'm exhausted after being up with my wife and our vomiting child last night) this is NOT correct, both win percentages would be .538, in essence two ties equal one win, no? (And I apologize for being overly simplistic with that explanation)

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

They are not the same %. 6-5-2 is .545%. 7-6-0 is 538%

Unless I'm missing something (and I'm exhausted after being up with my wife and our vomiting child last night) this is NOT correct, both win percentages would be .538, in essence two ties equal one win, no? (And I apologize for being overly simplistic with that explanation)

If the 2 ties equal one win... and the team with two ties also has one less loss... then they would clearly have a higher winning percentage, right?

 

[JMon348]

They are not the same %. 6-5-2 is .545%. 7-6-0 is 538%

Unless I'm missing something (and I'm exhausted after being up with my wife and our vomiting child last night) this is NOT correct, both win percentages would be .538, in essence two ties equal one win, no? (And I apologize for being overly simplistic with that explanation)

How I understand it would be to throw out the two ties and divide 6 into 11. Then 7 into 13. I apologize if this is not correct.

 

[levinakl]

I'm glad I brought this up here....because there are always different opinions and there's nothing at stake, it won't turn into an argument like it might in the league itself.

I don't think you can throw out the 2 ties, but that's just my opinion, because after all, the owner has still played in 13. Does anyone else agree/disagree?

 

[BigDave]

{Wins + 1/2(Number of Ties)} / Total Games Played

This is how most sites calculate scores based on wins, not losses.

Both teams tie in winning %

Then you move to the next tie breaker in your league to determine finish.

 

[Warrior]

{Wins + 1/2(Number of Ties)} / Total Games PlayedThis is how most sites calculate scores based on wins, not losses.Both teams tie in winning % Then you move to the next tie breaker in your league to determine finish.

((6+1)/13)((7+0)/13)your story checks out

 

[Topes]

{Wins + 1/2(Number of Ties)} / Total Games Played

This is how most sites calculate scores based on wins, not losses.

Both teams tie in winning %

Then you move to the next tie breaker in your league to determine finish.

6-5-2 and 7-6 are the same winning %, so it's a virtual tie

 

[Shane Falco]

it's a tie

decimal scoring next season

ETA- its not a "virtual" tie, its an actual tie

 

[firstseason1988]

I made a thread early in the season to help out with situations like this. It lasted about 5 minutes before being deleted. Not sure why. The suggestion was decimal scoring for this situation. I tried to tell you months ago.

But yeah 6-5-2 = 7-6. Got to next tiebreaker.

 

[g5jamz]

Do yourself a favor and move to decimal scoring to reduce ties.

 

[beaux]

Sad, just sad...

7-6 should be a better record because of more wins (2 votes [11.11%] - View)

6-5-2 is a better record because of less losses (2 votes [11.11%] - View)

Other (although I'm not sure what that might be) (1 votes [5.56%] - View)

 

[Joe Summer]

According to the NFL, a tie is equal to 1/2 win and 1/2 loss. So, 6-5-2 is exactly the same as 7-6.

Other leagues (such as the NHL) handle ties differently. But in the absence of rules addressing this situation, I think you have to go with what the NFL does.

 

[theplayer11]

you play to win the game 7 wins> 6 wins

 

[Topes]

ETA- its not a "virtual" tie, its an actual tie

 

[beaux]

you play to win the game 7 wins> 6 wins

6 losses > 5 losses

 

[David Yudkin]

In reality and the NFL they are the same . . . but each league can have it's own rules. I have played in leagues that called this a tie and I have been in a league where the rules SPECIFIED that the team with more actual wins got the nod even if the winning percentages were the same.

If there is nothing in the rules stating what to do, I would call it a draw and move on to the next tiebreaker.

 

[JMon348]

III

Which record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1?

Tie as well?

 

[beaux]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

12-1 (.923) > 12-1-1 (.893)

 

[doeseatplace]

since there is so much math in this thread, can someone figure the probability of Matthews scoring exactly 12 points tonight?

 

[Joe Summer]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

 

[David Yudkin]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

 

[Reepicheep]

They are not the same %. 6-5-2 is .545%. 7-6-0 is 538%

Unless I'm missing something (and I'm exhausted after being up with my wife and our vomiting child last night) this is NOT correct, both win percentages would be .538, in essence two ties equal one win, no? (And I apologize for being overly simplistic with that explanation)

If the 2 ties equal one win... and the team with two ties also has one less loss... then they would clearly have a higher winning percentage, right?

As has been stated, two ties equals one win AND one loss. Two ties is the same as going 1-1. Look at it this way:7-5-1 = 7.5-5.5 6-5-2 = 7-6 nfl.com states this specifically on their playoff tiebreaker rules page.http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Gonna need MOP to weigh in here.

 

[Godsbrother]

We specifically state in our rules that a tie is a 1/2 win and 1/2 loss so there is never a stupid argument about whether having more wins is better than having less losses.

 

[Irish Catholic]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

A game is snowed out late in the season and it has no bearing on the playoffs so doesn't get made up; but it does have a bearing in draft picks following year. One team is 2-13 and the other is 2-13-1. Who gets the higher pick?

 

[beaux]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

A game is snowed out late in the season and it has no bearing on the playoffs so doesn't get made up; but it does have a bearing in draft picks following year. One team is 2-13 and the other is 2-13-1. Who gets the higher pick?

This would NEVER happen. The game WOULD be played. Baseball is the only sport that would not make up cancellations late in the season that have no bearing on the postseason.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

A game is snowed out late in the season and it has no bearing on the playoffs so doesn't get made up; but it does have a bearing in draft picks following year. One team is 2-13 and the other is 2-13-1. Who gets the higher pick?

Assuming draft order for non-playoff teams in the NFL is determined by reverse order of winning percentage, the 2-13 team would get the higher pick. That's a worse record than 2-13-1.

 

[doeseatplace]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

A game is snowed out late in the season and it has no bearing on the playoffs so doesn't get made up; but it does have a bearing in draft picks following year. One team is 2-13 and the other is 2-13-1. Who gets the higher pick?

when has the NFL ever cancelled a game due to weather?In this scenario, is the owner of the home team going to send refunds to season ticcket holders and forego game day revenues?

 

[GregR]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

A game is snowed out late in the season and it has no bearing on the playoffs so doesn't get made up; but it does have a bearing in draft picks following year. One team is 2-13 and the other is 2-13-1. Who gets the higher pick?

One team has 2 wins in 15 games or a .133 winning percentage. The other team has 2.5 wins in 16 games or a .156 winning percentage. So the first team has the worst record and gets the higher pick.

 

[bryhamm]

They are not the same %. 6-5-2 is .545%. 7-6-0 is 538%

wrong

 

[GregR]

There are a couple of simple, common sense things that point to "just ignore the ties" is a bad system and not one that should be endorsed.

First one, let's say we have a team that goes 16-0, a team that goes 0-16, and a team who ties every game and goes 0-0-16.

Common sense says any standings system worth having, 16 ties should end up rated higher than 16 losses. It also says 16 ties should be worse than 16 wins.

And for the math conscious, we can add that using the "ignore ties" system, the team who tied has 0 wins in 0 games, which means their winning percentage requires dividing by zero which is undefined. When your standings system may call for division by zero, it's a huge clue it's a bad system.

So just by common sense measures, ties should be counted as something, and treating them as a half win and half loss makes the most sense.

 

[Shane Falco]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

let's pretend its a virtual world and it DID happen....

 

[Joe Summer]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

let's pretend its a virtual world and it DID happen....

Up until the 1930s, the NFL would have ignored the tie and declared that both teams were equal.Since the 1930s, the NFL considers 12-1 to be better than 12-1-1.

 

[David Yudkin]

IIIWhich record is better 12-1 or 12-1-1? Tie as well?

No. In the NFL, the team that is 12-1 would have the higher winning %.

This would never happen in the NFL at the end of the year, as they would never have a team with a different number of games played than another.

let's pretend its a virtual world and it DID happen....

Why are people making this more difficult than it needs to be? Take the number of wins (counting ties as a half a win) and divide by the number of games played. Which ever team has a higher winning percentage would be higher in the standings.12 wins in 13 games = .923 winning percentage.12.5 wins in 14 games = .893 winning percentage

 

[David Yudkin]

Up until the 1930s, the NFL would have ignored the tie and declared that both teams were equal.Since the 1930s, the NFL considers 12-1 to be better than 12-1-1.

Yeah, the standings back then were all screwy cause of the ties and the uneven schedule. Here were the standings from 1928 (when ties were ignored altogether): Providence Steam Roller 8-1-2 .889 (11 games played) Frankford Yellow Jackets 11-3-2 .786 (16 games played)Detroit Wolverines 7-2-1 .778 189 (10 games played)Green Bay Packers 6-4-3 .600 (13 games played)Chicago Bears 7-5-1 .583 (13 games played)New York Giants 4-7-2 .364 (13 games played)New York Yankees 4-8-1 .333 (13 games played)Pottsville Maroons 2-8-0 .200 (10 games played)Chicago Cardinals 1-5-0 .167 (6 games played)Dayton Triangles 0-7-0 .000 (7 games played)

 

[levinakl]

wow, this thread took some interesting turns...definitely glad to everyone on the help, thankfully Matthews exceeded 12 points, so it wasn't an issue, but I agree with the consensus here, it's always nice and helpful to get some honest "neutral" feedback, so thank you to all who voted

 

[belljr]

NFL Tiebreaking Procedures

The six postseason participants from each conference are seeded as follows:

1.The division champion with the best record.

2.The division champion with the second-best record.

3.The division champion with the third-best record.

4.The division champion with the fourth-best record.

5.The Wild Card club with the best record.

6.The Wild Card club with the second-best record.

The following procedures will be used to break standings ties for postseason playoffs and to determine regular-season schedules.



NOTE: Tie games count as one-half win and one-half loss for both clubs.

Pardon me if this was already mentioned but that's the NFL's rules

 

[spodog]

Up until the 1930s, the NFL would have ignored the tie and declared that both teams were equal.Since the 1930s, the NFL considers 12-1 to be better than 12-1-1.

Yeah, the standings back then were all screwy cause of the ties and the uneven schedule. Here were the standings from 1928 (when ties were ignored altogether): Providence Steam Roller 8-1-2 .889 (11 games played) Frankford Yellow Jackets 11-3-2 .786 (16 games played)Detroit Wolverines 7-2-1 .778 189 (10 games played)Green Bay Packers 6-4-3 .600 (13 games played)Chicago Bears 7-5-1 .583 (13 games played)New York Giants 4-7-2 .364 (13 games played)New York Yankees 4-8-1 .333 (13 games played)Pottsville Maroons 2-8-0 .200 (10 games played)Chicago Cardinals 1-5-0 .167 (6 games played)Dayton Triangles 0-7-0 .000 (7 games played)

Are you positive on this? I thought for sure that the Pottsville Maroons had a tie in '28.

 

[Ned]

Gonna need MOP to weigh in here.

This might be the only SP thread where he hasn't weighed in.This is a tie, btw.