Right. No acknowledgment that he's been playing like ####.
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Tiger Woods (1 Viewer)
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
Let's see how the next few weeks play out, shall we? He's still working his way back from a pretty serious surgery and by all accounts is relatively pain-free for the first time in a long time. He has a pretty good track record with this kind of thing.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Wow. I'm an avid fantasy golf guy and understand him not being a top pick anymore, but leaving him off the top 12 of US players seems pretty crazy to me.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm finally ready to throw in the towel here. He's toast.
mr roboto
Footballguy
I'm getting close to this. He simply can't hit a driver. You can't win majors like that (except for 06 British and that was a bizarre tournament). I also don't think his new swing is built to allow a good driver swing.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
You can steal our women or our major golf championship records. You can't have both.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Which new? He was stopping short of parallel all week. He's working towards keeping the driver in play. It'll be interesting to watch.
Zow
Footballguy
That's not necessarily what I'm asking. I'm asking if, in whatever extreme hypo circumstance you want to use to heighten the meaning of the match, whether, if you had to choose 12 US players to form a team, Tiger would be one of them.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Otis
Footballguy
John Bender
Footballguy
It's still real to me, dammit!
matuski
Footballguy
I'm not following the hate here. Where and why would he take this that direction?Right. No acknowledgment that he's been playing like ####.
flapgreen
Footballguy
:facepalm:
the moops
Footballguy
Yea, stupid him being the best golfer to ever live for like 10 years. what a moron
Well, Phil admitted he wasn't playing well enough to be on the team right now, and he played much better than Tiger.I'm not following the hate here. Where and why would he take this that direction?Right. No acknowledgment that he's been playing like ####.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Anyone using Wood's game right NOW to trash him is pretty much nothing more than a petty D-bag who has some sort of fetish for disliking him.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Yeah, chances are at that point he WILL be a top 12 US player pretty easy. Not saying he should be on the team though. He wouldnt have earned it for this year by then probably.
But he WILL be a top 12 player at that time.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
WAs he toast a year ago winning more than anyone else??
He had back surgery RECENTLY, lol.
I am done, the Tiger hate is too much for me
Everyone just LOVES to see the best falter for some reason. Sad.
flapgreen
Footballguy
How many years of not competing in Majors is it going to take for you to let go?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
You're making an excuse to include Tiger on the Ryder Cup team. The top nine are in and there are three wild card spots. You realize that right now, Tiger is not included on this team. Watson warned him to pick up his game. Tiger didn't. Watson has had a tense relation with Tiger so anyone thinking it will be a forgone conclusion that Watson will pick Tiger, think again
flapgreen
Footballguy
The injuries are the issue. You have that part right at least. He can't stay healthy for an extended period of time, at least not long enough to return to form and win Majors. It's like there's no limit to the number of years he wins no Majors that some of you will relent. He isn't coming back anywhere close to dominating the field again. It's over. He might win another Major or two at some point, but his best days are long gone and he's just another one of the guys now.WAs he toast a year ago winning more than anyone else??
He had back surgery RECENTLY, lol.
I am done, the Tiger hate is too much for me
Everyone just LOVES to see the best falter for some reason. Sad.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Mostly agree, but his game right this second is not where it will be in a few months.The injuries are the issue. You have that part right at least. He can't stay healthy for an extended period of time, at least not long enough to return to form and win Majors. It's like there's no limit to the number of years he wins no Majors that some of you will relent. He isn't coming back anywhere close to dominating the field again. It's over. He might win another Major or two at some point, but his best days are long gone and he's just another one of the guys now.WAs he toast a year ago winning more than anyone else??
He had back surgery RECENTLY, lol.
I am done, the Tiger hate is too much for me
Everyone just LOVES to see the best falter for some reason. Sad.
Everyone is well aware the "old tiger" is never coming back. It would be insane to think it is likely. It's POSSIBLE, but like a 1 in a million kind of possible.
Do I think he is just another one of the guys?? No. I think he is just another one of the top 20 guys, just not right this second.
I think over the course of the next 5 years starting today, he will have more success than all but a handful of guys. To me, that is not "just one of the guys".
I dont care if he doesnt win a major for the next 5 years though, if he is playing well, he can win a major. A 10 years major drought doesnt mean he can't win a major.
Yes, I think he will win another major or two. Maybe more. I know it is easier said than done, but if he can figure out his driver he will win several more pretty easily IMO. At this moment I am amazed at how bad he is at hitting his driver.
Lot of people view him as some sort of failure because he wont "dominate the field" again. So what?????? Why does he need to dominate the field again?? He is easily the bet golfer to ever live. He just didn't do it for as long as some of the other guys. But he A-game for a decade was easily better than anyone elses A-game in history.
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
Five wins in a season qualifies as dominating the field. HTH.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Last 4 years he has 1, tied for 3rd at the 2012 British Open...
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/woods-career-major-finishes/#slide-65
Tiger isn't being judged on what he does at the BMW Championship or some random round in Sheboygan... Until he can be relevant in a major again, which I'm starting to feel is never going to happen, the guy is finished.
At most he can string together one more good major and get a lucky win, but no chance he wins more than one and even one is unlikely IMO.
ETA: The days of Tiger just flat out dominating are sadly long gone and will never return...
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lod01
Footballguy
Yeah, on the courses he knows like the back of his hand. Stat padder.
Farmers (7th time)
Cadillac (7th time)
Arnie Invitational (8th time)
Bridgestone (8th time)
Maybe if the guy would realize that people like Butch Harmon helped him get to where he was, and show some humility, beg Butch to fix him, he could be great again. He also needs to understand that playing just select tourneys that he knows doesn't cut it anymore. He's not that guy anymore. He needs to be out there at least every other week grinding it out. Of course, that gets back to being a stat padder. If he plays course he doesn't know, he is simply part of the field. No doubt he doesn't want his win percentage to plummet, which it would.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
I think Tiger can win 1-2 more Majors but it wouldn't shock me if he doesn't win another. It would shock me if he breaks Jack's record. His short game and mental game carried him when he dominated. The pressure of winning more majors has definitely affected him, not sure how else you would explain his scoring on Thur/Friday compared to Sat/Sun at the majors over the last few years except to say the pressure has gotten to him.
I think he will contend at the PGA.
I think he will contend at the PGA.
mr roboto
Footballguy
I thought more about this. His swing is built to compress (iron swing). He still has elite iron game. But for some reason (probably back and knew related) he can't clear onto that left leg and hit up against it (which is how you hit the driver - not downward strike but on the upswing). He can't compete with 2-iron stingers against Rory, DJ, Sergio, Bubba etc. I'd love to hear from some of you who actually know the golf swing if you agree or not.
Tiger is running out of time. He will be 40 next year.
"Golf offers the illusion of timelessness. That’s why so many of us love the game. It’s a game you or I can play all our lives. And, on the highest level, Tom Watson can almost win the British Open at 59. Jack Nicklaus can wake the echoes at Amen Corner at 46. Phil Mickelson can win just one major championship before he turns 35 and then win four after that, including last year’s British Open at 43. It’s fantastic to watch great golfers stir memories.
“Phil Mickelson is six years older (than Tiger) and just won the British Open,” a reader named Eric Dunn tweeted today. “Age is irrelevant in golf.”
No, that’s not it. It’s more that Mickelson is a rare golfer. Saying that age isn’t irrelevant in golf because Mickelson won at 43 is like saying, “Brett Favre played quarterback when he was 41 so age is irrelevant in football” or “Jamie Moyer won 16 games when he was 45 so age is irrelevant in baseball.” Golfers don’t age at precisely the same pace as baseball pitchers, but it was a lot closer than I expected.
I looked at all the major champions going back to 1960, the year Arnold Palmer helped usher in the notion of golf’s Grand Slam as we now think of it. I realize only going back to 1960 does exclude Ben Hogan and Sam Snead and others who played very well into later ages, but those guys almost never played the British Open. Heck, they couldn’t even play all four in the same year because of scheduling. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison.
So, going back to 1960 here are some facts.
1. The average and median age for major champions is 32. It skews a little younger at the British Open (median of 31) and a little older at the PGA Championship (median of 33), but it’s basically 32. That number has stayed pretty constant for 50-plus years. That’s your peak: age 32.
2. Players 35 and younger have won more than three-quarters of all the majors since 1960. It may be hard to believe, but it’s a young man’s game.
3. Less than 10 percent – just 20 of 216 – of all majors were won by players 40 and over. It does happen, especially at the British Open (the last three British Open champions were all 40-somethings). But since 2000, only one golfer – 41-year-old Vijay Singh – has won a Masters, U.S. Open or PGA Championship.
4. Only two players in the last 54 years – Nicklaus in ’86 and Julius Boros in ’68 – were 46 or older when they won a Grand Slam title.
Here’s a quick chart of major championship winners by age if you are interested:
• Age 20-25: 24 (11%)
• Age 26-30: 64 (30%)
• Age 31-35: 76 (35%)
• Age 36-40: 34 (16%)
• Age 41-over: 19 (8%)
Then, as mentioned, I compared the aging pattern against major league pitchers. I used a statistic called Wins Above Replacement – which measures the value of a pitcher – but that’s not really important. There have been 216 major championships since 1960, and there have been 221 pitchers who had a season of 6.8 wins above replacement (that’s roughly a Cy Young quality season).
Here are those pitchers by age:
• Age 20-25: 62 (28%)
• Age 26-30: 86 (39%)
• Age 31-35: 60 (27%)
• Age 36-40: 12 (5.5%)
• Age 41-over: 1 (0.5%)
So, you can see that golfers tend to age at about the same rate as pitchers, only not quite at the same time. Golfers tend to start later. About two-thirds of the pitchers were 30 or younger while only four out of 10 of the major winners were that young. And golfers tend to end later.
The core age range for pitchers is roughly 23-36 – that is when they are at their best. Meanwhile for golfers, the core age range is just a little later, age 25-38. A few more pitchers are great in their young 20s. A few more golfers are great in their early 40s. But you will note that the range itself – about 16 years – is the same.
In fact, many of the best and most talented golfers of the last half-century stopped winning majors in their early 30s. Arnold Palmer won his last major at 34. Tom Watson won his last major at 33. Seve Ballesteros was just 31 when he win his last major. Johnny Miller, Curtis Strange, Fuzzy Zoeller, Jose Maria Olazabal, Fred Couples, Tom Weiskopf, Paul Azinger – none of these players won even one major championship after turning 35.
And, of course, Tiger Woods was 32 the last time he won a major, at the 2008 U.S. Open.
People sometimes mock the athletic grind of golf, but it’s real. In the last six years, Woods has had knee injuries, an elbow injury, a neck injury, an Achilles injury and a back injury. This year’s Masters will be the fifth major championships Woods has missed since winning that astonishing U.S. Open on one leg, and he missed the cut in two others. This is just the new reality. Woods, as he approaches 40, can still, on certain days and certain weekends, be a great golfer. But his body won’t let him be great on command, not anymore. Time is in charge.
But it’s more than just the body breaking down. Golfers, as a rule, are better when they’re younger. Putting is mostly a young man’s game. Power is mostly a young man’s game. Steadiness is a young man’s game. Experience and knowledge can make up for some of this, but not all of it. Yes, there are exceptions in golf, just like there are exceptions in every sport. But the general rule is still in place.
Woods will continue to fascinate for years. I think he has another major championship or two in him. Everyone will watch closely when he returns from this injury. His good days will inspire an overreaction just like his bad days will. Nicklaus has said it: Nobody ever played golf as well as Tiger did as a young man. But nobody in the last 50 years played golf as well as Jack Nicklaus did as an old man. And, as hard as it is to believe, that is a whole different skill."
Maybe this is a Honda. But it was new for me, is relevant, and not everyone goes back through 146 pages.
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/joe-posnanski/does-age-really-matter-golf-yes-it-does/
"Golf offers the illusion of timelessness. That’s why so many of us love the game. It’s a game you or I can play all our lives. And, on the highest level, Tom Watson can almost win the British Open at 59. Jack Nicklaus can wake the echoes at Amen Corner at 46. Phil Mickelson can win just one major championship before he turns 35 and then win four after that, including last year’s British Open at 43. It’s fantastic to watch great golfers stir memories.
“Phil Mickelson is six years older (than Tiger) and just won the British Open,” a reader named Eric Dunn tweeted today. “Age is irrelevant in golf.”
No, that’s not it. It’s more that Mickelson is a rare golfer. Saying that age isn’t irrelevant in golf because Mickelson won at 43 is like saying, “Brett Favre played quarterback when he was 41 so age is irrelevant in football” or “Jamie Moyer won 16 games when he was 45 so age is irrelevant in baseball.” Golfers don’t age at precisely the same pace as baseball pitchers, but it was a lot closer than I expected.
I looked at all the major champions going back to 1960, the year Arnold Palmer helped usher in the notion of golf’s Grand Slam as we now think of it. I realize only going back to 1960 does exclude Ben Hogan and Sam Snead and others who played very well into later ages, but those guys almost never played the British Open. Heck, they couldn’t even play all four in the same year because of scheduling. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison.
So, going back to 1960 here are some facts.
1. The average and median age for major champions is 32. It skews a little younger at the British Open (median of 31) and a little older at the PGA Championship (median of 33), but it’s basically 32. That number has stayed pretty constant for 50-plus years. That’s your peak: age 32.
2. Players 35 and younger have won more than three-quarters of all the majors since 1960. It may be hard to believe, but it’s a young man’s game.
3. Less than 10 percent – just 20 of 216 – of all majors were won by players 40 and over. It does happen, especially at the British Open (the last three British Open champions were all 40-somethings). But since 2000, only one golfer – 41-year-old Vijay Singh – has won a Masters, U.S. Open or PGA Championship.
4. Only two players in the last 54 years – Nicklaus in ’86 and Julius Boros in ’68 – were 46 or older when they won a Grand Slam title.
Here’s a quick chart of major championship winners by age if you are interested:
• Age 20-25: 24 (11%)
• Age 26-30: 64 (30%)
• Age 31-35: 76 (35%)
• Age 36-40: 34 (16%)
• Age 41-over: 19 (8%)
Then, as mentioned, I compared the aging pattern against major league pitchers. I used a statistic called Wins Above Replacement – which measures the value of a pitcher – but that’s not really important. There have been 216 major championships since 1960, and there have been 221 pitchers who had a season of 6.8 wins above replacement (that’s roughly a Cy Young quality season).
Here are those pitchers by age:
• Age 20-25: 62 (28%)
• Age 26-30: 86 (39%)
• Age 31-35: 60 (27%)
• Age 36-40: 12 (5.5%)
• Age 41-over: 1 (0.5%)
So, you can see that golfers tend to age at about the same rate as pitchers, only not quite at the same time. Golfers tend to start later. About two-thirds of the pitchers were 30 or younger while only four out of 10 of the major winners were that young. And golfers tend to end later.
The core age range for pitchers is roughly 23-36 – that is when they are at their best. Meanwhile for golfers, the core age range is just a little later, age 25-38. A few more pitchers are great in their young 20s. A few more golfers are great in their early 40s. But you will note that the range itself – about 16 years – is the same.
In fact, many of the best and most talented golfers of the last half-century stopped winning majors in their early 30s. Arnold Palmer won his last major at 34. Tom Watson won his last major at 33. Seve Ballesteros was just 31 when he win his last major. Johnny Miller, Curtis Strange, Fuzzy Zoeller, Jose Maria Olazabal, Fred Couples, Tom Weiskopf, Paul Azinger – none of these players won even one major championship after turning 35.
And, of course, Tiger Woods was 32 the last time he won a major, at the 2008 U.S. Open.
People sometimes mock the athletic grind of golf, but it’s real. In the last six years, Woods has had knee injuries, an elbow injury, a neck injury, an Achilles injury and a back injury. This year’s Masters will be the fifth major championships Woods has missed since winning that astonishing U.S. Open on one leg, and he missed the cut in two others. This is just the new reality. Woods, as he approaches 40, can still, on certain days and certain weekends, be a great golfer. But his body won’t let him be great on command, not anymore. Time is in charge.
But it’s more than just the body breaking down. Golfers, as a rule, are better when they’re younger. Putting is mostly a young man’s game. Power is mostly a young man’s game. Steadiness is a young man’s game. Experience and knowledge can make up for some of this, but not all of it. Yes, there are exceptions in golf, just like there are exceptions in every sport. But the general rule is still in place.
Woods will continue to fascinate for years. I think he has another major championship or two in him. Everyone will watch closely when he returns from this injury. His good days will inspire an overreaction just like his bad days will. Nicklaus has said it: Nobody ever played golf as well as Tiger did as a young man. But nobody in the last 50 years played golf as well as Jack Nicklaus did as an old man. And, as hard as it is to believe, that is a whole different skill."
Maybe this is a Honda. But it was new for me, is relevant, and not everyone goes back through 146 pages.
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/joe-posnanski/does-age-really-matter-golf-yes-it-does/
Zow
Footballguy
I'm not making excuses for anything. I recognize that right now Tiger isn't in the 9 automatic qualifiers (I don't live under a rock) and numbers-wise combined with recent struggles there's a good argument that Watson shouldn't pick him as a captain's choice.
My point was that, when push comes to shove, I have a hard time convincing myself that Tiger isn't one of the top 12 golfers in the US (which I illustrated by using an extreme hypo).
Here are the current Ryder Cup standings as of 7/13/14:
Rank Player Events Points
1 Bubba Watson 18 6828.14
2 Jimmy Walker 22 5379.51
3 Dustin Johnson 19 4844.50
4 Matt Kuchar 21 4716.48
5 Jordan Spieth 23 4689.29
6 Jim Furyk 17 4302.83
7 Rickie Fowler 23 3831.43
8 Jason Dufner 18 3466.29
9 Zach Johnson 23 3396.18
10 Patrick Reed 20 3301.39
11 Brendon Todd 22 3177.98
12 Phil Mickelson 19 3095.09
13 Webb Simpson 21 3086.07
14 Chris Kirk 22 3038.95
15 Harris English 24 2966.57
16 Kevin Na 21 2831.24
17 Ryan Moore 22 2829.56
18 Keegan Bradley 24 2828.76
19 Erik Compton 22 2458.79
20 Matt Every 21 2429.78
21 Kevin Stadler 21 2257.58
22 Brian Harman 25 2209.25
23 Gary Woodland 19 2202.88
24 J.B. Holmes 18 2190.34
25 Kevin Streelman 22 2125.68
Other than Dufner, Reed, and maybe Jimmy Walker, most guys in the top 12 playing decently.
Rank Player Events Points
1 Bubba Watson 18 6828.14
2 Jimmy Walker 22 5379.51
3 Dustin Johnson 19 4844.50
4 Matt Kuchar 21 4716.48
5 Jordan Spieth 23 4689.29
6 Jim Furyk 17 4302.83
7 Rickie Fowler 23 3831.43
8 Jason Dufner 18 3466.29
9 Zach Johnson 23 3396.18
10 Patrick Reed 20 3301.39
11 Brendon Todd 22 3177.98
12 Phil Mickelson 19 3095.09
13 Webb Simpson 21 3086.07
14 Chris Kirk 22 3038.95
15 Harris English 24 2966.57
16 Kevin Na 21 2831.24
17 Ryan Moore 22 2829.56
18 Keegan Bradley 24 2828.76
19 Erik Compton 22 2458.79
20 Matt Every 21 2429.78
21 Kevin Stadler 21 2257.58
22 Brian Harman 25 2209.25
23 Gary Woodland 19 2202.88
24 J.B. Holmes 18 2190.34
25 Kevin Streelman 22 2125.68
Other than Dufner, Reed, and maybe Jimmy Walker, most guys in the top 12 playing decently.
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
Phil, Keegan and Tiger would be my Captain picks
Joe T
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
That article from DiStefano is actually an interesting point of discussion amongst 147 pages of crap.
The article makes some good points but also misleads a bit:
1. 8% is a lot more than 0.5%, so it's silly to say golfers and pitchers are similar when it comes to aging.
2. No other golfer that I remember had a season at Age 37 like Tiger did last year, so he's already shown evidence contradicting the normal curve.
3. The data since 1960 is kind of skewed by the dominance of young Tiger. Take him out of the equation and all of a sudden you've got a lot more majors won by guys over the age of 30 or even 35. Tom Kite would have won the Masters at age 48 were it not for Tiger in 1997. Chris Di Marco would have won a couple in his late 30s. And there's 3 or 4 others too- Rocco Mediate, Woody Austin, etc. It's weird to use data skewed by young Tiger's greatness to show that old Tiger can't compete.
The article makes some good points but also misleads a bit:
1. 8% is a lot more than 0.5%, so it's silly to say golfers and pitchers are similar when it comes to aging.
2. No other golfer that I remember had a season at Age 37 like Tiger did last year, so he's already shown evidence contradicting the normal curve.
3. The data since 1960 is kind of skewed by the dominance of young Tiger. Take him out of the equation and all of a sudden you've got a lot more majors won by guys over the age of 30 or even 35. Tom Kite would have won the Masters at age 48 were it not for Tiger in 1997. Chris Di Marco would have won a couple in his late 30s. And there's 3 or 4 others too- Rocco Mediate, Woody Austin, etc. It's weird to use data skewed by young Tiger's greatness to show that old Tiger can't compete.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Not sure if he still doesn't trust his left knee or what. It's always looked like a simple timing issue to me. He's late. Though I'm sure both the knee and back have figured into things, be it in a work around or bracing for it. Whatever the case, he appears to be shortening his driver swing. Have to assume that's an effort straighten it out.
But then again old Tiger will competeing against Rory and Fowler hitting their primes so the skew works both ways.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
That assumes the young guys are better relative to the field than in previous decades. That might be true of Rory, hard to tell.
Kind of speaks to the larger point, which is that golfers are so different that it's hard to really ID patterns. Vijay Singh was at his best after 40, although that might have been the deer urine. Mickelson's been pretty sharp in his 40s although he might finally be fading at 44. Other guys fall off the face of the earth in their early 30s. Tiger's tough to read- he was so good last year but he's also had huge injury problems.
