You're saying "final straw" in a good way? That you didn't think he could do it but after watching Gruden's video, you're more inclined to think he can do it?J
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Time Capsule - Last One For Tebow 4/22/10 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
I voted average starting QB. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to see him fall anywhere in the range from backup to elite, so I just sort of split the difference.
I think what's hard with Tim Tebow is that over half of QBs "bust", whether they're hotly debated or not. Even sure-thing QBs liks Leaf, Couch, Carr, Harrington, Akili Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Alex Smith- top 5 draft picks, every one- wind up flaming out spectacularly. Despite that, if Tebow flames out, everyone's going to be quick to pat themselves on the back and say that they "called it". Well, yeah, congratulations... but you might as well be congratulating yourself for picking heads.
I think all the NFL has shown us over the years is that scouts, GMs, coaches, and (most especially) casual fans simply have not yet figured out what variables result in an elite QB. That's partly why I'm voting in Tebow's favor, here- if they haven't figured out what variables result in an elite QB, and if Tebow has so many variables that none of his peers possess, then I'm going to place my money on him because there's a good chance that he possesses some key variable that sets him above his peers. Again, though... if Tebow does wind up succeeding and I try to congratulate myself for it, feel free to remind me that I'm really just patting myself on the back for correctly calling "tails".
I've always believed that, in order to be the best, you either need to do exactly what everyone else is doing, only better than everyone else... or you need to do something different entirely. Tim Tebow can't do what everyone else is doing better than everyone else, but he can absolutely do something different, something that no one else is doing, and I think that over the long run that will provide as much value- if not more- as is provided by the guys doing the same thing as everyone else at an average level.
I think what's hard with Tim Tebow is that over half of QBs "bust", whether they're hotly debated or not. Even sure-thing QBs liks Leaf, Couch, Carr, Harrington, Akili Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Alex Smith- top 5 draft picks, every one- wind up flaming out spectacularly. Despite that, if Tebow flames out, everyone's going to be quick to pat themselves on the back and say that they "called it". Well, yeah, congratulations... but you might as well be congratulating yourself for picking heads.
I think all the NFL has shown us over the years is that scouts, GMs, coaches, and (most especially) casual fans simply have not yet figured out what variables result in an elite QB. That's partly why I'm voting in Tebow's favor, here- if they haven't figured out what variables result in an elite QB, and if Tebow has so many variables that none of his peers possess, then I'm going to place my money on him because there's a good chance that he possesses some key variable that sets him above his peers. Again, though... if Tebow does wind up succeeding and I try to congratulate myself for it, feel free to remind me that I'm really just patting myself on the back for correctly calling "tails".
I've always believed that, in order to be the best, you either need to do exactly what everyone else is doing, only better than everyone else... or you need to do something different entirely. Tim Tebow can't do what everyone else is doing better than everyone else, but he can absolutely do something different, something that no one else is doing, and I think that over the long run that will provide as much value- if not more- as is provided by the guys doing the same thing as everyone else at an average level.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Went with Above Avg QB.
jurb26
Footballguy
I'm not trying to be a smart ###, but what is this something you are talking about?
Vick had the luxury of being the fastest guy on the field--in college and the NFL. Tebow's advantage in college was his size & speed combo. He was as big or bigger and as fast or faster than most of the LBs who were trying to tackle him. That advantage disappears in the NFL.
Went for above average, it sounded like he made great strides in improving his footwork in just a couple of months & given his work ethic I wouldn't be surprised if that continues over his first couple of years. Possibly the biggest risk for him is gooing to a team that needs to get him on the field too early, doing things he's not ready for yet.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
From one of the many places with updated feeds . . .
The player rep for Tim Tebow claims he already knows where the Florida quarterback will be drafted.
"I don't know if it's gonna shock the world because I always thought he was going to do well," the agent said. "But we pretty much know. We have a pretty good idea what's going to happen." Tebow's father has already predicted that the QB will be a top-15 pick, and the agent's comments also suggest an earlier than expected selection. April 22 - 2:59 p.m. ET
The player rep for Tim Tebow claims he already knows where the Florida quarterback will be drafted.
"I don't know if it's gonna shock the world because I always thought he was going to do well," the agent said. "But we pretty much know. We have a pretty good idea what's going to happen." Tebow's father has already predicted that the QB will be a top-15 pick, and the agent's comments also suggest an earlier than expected selection. April 22 - 2:59 p.m. ET
You said yourself that you think Tim Tebow will be playing another position. Do you think Jimmy Clausen or Sam Bradford could play another position successfully in the NFL? How about Peyton Manning- if his QB career hadn't worked out, do you think he'd be playing TE instead? Drew Brees? Jason Campbell? Jamarcus Russell?The fact that you think Tebow could play another position while no other NFL QBs (or, at the least, very very few other NFL QBs) could indicates that you *ALSO* think he's capable of doing something different, something that no other NFL QB (or, at the least, very very few other NFL QBs) are capable of doing.
Tim Tebow bench presses more than 90% of the offensive linemen at THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, which nearly rivals USC at the moment in terms of the glut of NFL talent it has. Tebow is stronger than Pouncey, the consensus best interior lineman in the upcoming draft. Tim Tebow schooled Eric Berry, a consensus top-10 NFL draft pick, as well as every other one of the SEC's talented defenders. Trust me, Tebow's athletic advantages aren't going to "disappear" in the pros, any more than Vick's did. Whether they'll translate is another thing entirely- whether a team will want to risk their investment by using him as a battering ram- but Tebow's physical tools are elite even by NFL standards.
Matt Waldman
Footballguy
I absolutely love Tebow's attitude and football demeanor. Yes, I know college football is different than the NFL game in terms of the rah-rah factor, but for all the goody-goody backlash people have about Tebow, he still needed to be a tough S.O.B. to win over the guys on that Florida roster. I would absolutely take the chance on him after round four just to see if it panned out. However, there is literally nothing he does physically or mentally as a QB that is going to revolutionize the game of football, and there are several things he doesn't do mentally and physically that he needs to revamp, refine, or develop from scratch to just be effective.
Forget the wind up and lack of experience dropping back. Worry about him being able to throw to his right when forced to move in that direction and be accurate more than 10 yards down field. Worry about the fact that despite the love of him beating on SEC defenses that he did it with an offense filled with great athletes playing in a unique scheme that opponents didn't see every week (much like Georgia Tech in the SEC with their triple option strain of running the football), Tebow as a 1-2 option read player to the left side of the field and the more acute the angle that a throw required, the less accurate he was. Worry about the fact that his first tendency when pressured up the middle is to turn his back to the defense and run rather than climb the pocket. Arm strength? Most quarterbacks in college football can throw the ball 40 yards with reasonable accuracy on seam routes and streaks. Worry that Tebow tips off his throws with repeated hitches and pats of the football before he begins his delivery.
A lot of these things can be fixed and what I do like about Tebow is that he seems intent on working hard enough to have a fighting chance. But I think someone is going to take him in the first two rounds and its a huge risk. History says he's never going to be a starter. I hope I'm wrong and he proves to be an excellent QB over time, but I think he's a back up.
Forget the wind up and lack of experience dropping back. Worry about him being able to throw to his right when forced to move in that direction and be accurate more than 10 yards down field. Worry about the fact that despite the love of him beating on SEC defenses that he did it with an offense filled with great athletes playing in a unique scheme that opponents didn't see every week (much like Georgia Tech in the SEC with their triple option strain of running the football), Tebow as a 1-2 option read player to the left side of the field and the more acute the angle that a throw required, the less accurate he was. Worry about the fact that his first tendency when pressured up the middle is to turn his back to the defense and run rather than climb the pocket. Arm strength? Most quarterbacks in college football can throw the ball 40 yards with reasonable accuracy on seam routes and streaks. Worry that Tebow tips off his throws with repeated hitches and pats of the football before he begins his delivery.
A lot of these things can be fixed and what I do like about Tebow is that he seems intent on working hard enough to have a fighting chance. But I think someone is going to take him in the first two rounds and its a huge risk. History says he's never going to be a starter. I hope I'm wrong and he proves to be an excellent QB over time, but I think he's a back up.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
I may have my facts mixed up, but I believe Tebow also has cured cancer and can recite every prime number...backwards...in less time than it takes him to run a 40.He is a god. But, I still maintain that he is going to tank as an NFL quarterback.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Backup. He just has too much to overcome.
Which is why I didn't mention his bench press in response to someone who said that Tebow wasn't going to succeed- I mentioned it in response to someone who specifically said that he would no longer have a physical advantage over his peers in the NFL.
CaptainHook
Footballguy
slow guy with a bad arm...not in league anymore (as a qb anyway)
Tau837
Footballguy
The post you responded to said:
I read this as saying that his advantage was being bigger or faster than opposing LBs. Nothing about strength. He specifically said size and speed. And I think Christo's point holds... I agree with him that Tebow will not be bigger or faster than most opposing LBs in the NFL... and I doubt he'll be stronger than most of them either.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Slow guy? He was the 4th fastest QB running a 4.72. How is he "slow"?
CaptainHook
Footballguy
hes sort of fast compared to guys who can actually play QB...woooohooo. hes not fast compared to a linebacker.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Which QBs are? Why is that a knock on him?
In college, his game was never about being faster than opposing defenders, it was about being more powerful than them. Seriously, he only had a handful of runs over 20 yards in his entire career- speed was never a big part of his game. And I'd be willing to bet that Tim Tebow will still be stronger than at least 80% of the linebackers in the NFL. I was looking up some player stats before the 2006 national championship between Florida and Ohio State (a game that featured a bevy of NFL talent), and there was only one player on either team who benched more than Tim Tebow- Florida lineman Jim Tartt. The guy's 240 pounds and benches like an offensive lineman. He's definitely going to retain a power advantage over almost any back-7 defender he runs into in the pros.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
It was more the marked improvement that Gruden said he saw from pre to post workout, and within the workout itself. All the while being willing to admit faults be humble, while never looking like he was dejected. Call it a gut feeling. But this guys been a winner, and he apparently impressed McDaniel enough to go get him. We'll now see what happens.
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dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Average, which means he'll exceed most expectations.
CaptainHook
Footballguy
it really would be fascinating to see a team with a qb that actually personally pounded the defense throughout the game. i hope mcdaniels has some tricks up his sleeve and gets to stick around long enough to bring them to fruition.
cstu
Footballguy
The Stranger: [voiceover] Way out west there was this fella... fella I wanna tell ya about. Fella by the name of Tim Tebow. At least that was the handle his loving parents gave him, but he never had much use for it himself. Mr. Tebow, he called himself "Baby Jesus". Now, "Jesus" - that's a name no one would self-apply where I come from. But then there was a lot about Baby Jesus that didn't make a whole lot of sense. And a lot about where he lived, likewise. But then again, maybe that's why I found the place so darned interestin'. They call Denver the "Mile High City" I didn't find it to be that, exactly. But I'll allow there are some nice folks there. 'Course I can't say I've seen London, and I ain't never been to France. And I ain't never seen no queen in her damned undies, so the feller says. But I'll tell you what - after seeing Denver, and this here story I'm about to unfold, well, I guess I seen somethin' every bit as stupefyin' as you'd see in any of them other places. And in English, too. So I can die with a smile on my face, without feelin' like the good Lord gypped me. Now this here story I'm about to unfold took place back in the early '10s - just after the time of our conflict with Sad'm and the I-raqis. I only mention it because sometimes there's a man... I won't say a hero, 'cause, what's a hero? But sometimes, there's a man. And I'm talkin' about Baby Jesus here. Sometimes, there's a man, well, he's the man for his time and place. He fits right in there. And that's Baby Jesus, in Denver. And even if he's a righteous man - and Baby Jesus was most certainly that. Quite possibly the most righteous in Denver County, which would place him high in the runnin' for most righteous worldwide. But sometimes there's a man, sometimes, there's a man. Aw. I lost my train of thought here. But... aw, hell. I've done introduced him enough.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
Yes I am saying final straw in a good way, since I usually kind of pull against the gators. But after watching that finally cemented my take on it. Gruden is a helluva football mind. I get the feeling Gruden felt he could win with teebow at QB.
A big part of his game is his running ability. So speed matters a lot more to him than Bradford & Clausen.
HellToupee
Footballguy
he'll be a starter and will be a better player than his stats will indicate fantasy wise
I demand a re-vote!Gotta think he's going to be the starter in Denver in 2011. Below average at best.
jurb26
Footballguy
I guess I was under the impression that you were meaning this in a way that was going to benefit his career as a QB. There is no doubt that he is a superb athlete worthy of playing in the NFL somewhere, IMO TE or H-back. I mean Suh offers something different than any QB in the draft as well but it doesn't translate to the position so nobody cares. I may have misunderstood you but I thought you meant he did something that no other QB could do and that was going to translate to an advantage for him at QB.
FUBAR
Footballguy
He'll have a role and may even help a team win the Super Bowl but he'll never be in the upper echelon of starters in the NFL stat-wise although he could be record-wise. He could be what Big Ben and Sanchez where their rookie years but unlike them that's his upside.
Sleeping King
Footballguy
Mulit time All-Pro
Will win a Super Bowl (as starting QB)
Will be the poster child of the NFL in 5 years
And yes I'm serious.
Will win a Super Bowl (as starting QB)
Will be the poster child of the NFL in 5 years
And yes I'm serious.
ill roll with that. ill add to it even.he will do the same thing he did at florida. his rookie year he will be in some "special packages"... and will overtake as the starter in 2011...some underdogs you dont bet against.
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If Suh could still perform QB-specific tasks (like, you know, throwing the ball) at a competent level, then absolutely his other gifts would translate to an advantage for him at QB.If Jimmy Clausen lines up, takes a snap from the shotgun, and takes a step towards the line of scrimmage, no safety in the entire league is going to freeze for even a millisecond. Nobody in the world respects that threat- and for good reason. Clausen can't do what Tebow can do. When Tebow gets the snap and takes a step towards the line of scrimmage, though, safeties will freeze- especially if it's 2nd and 2 or 3rd and 1. Because Tebow can do things that no other QB in the league can do (i.e. execute power runs against a stacked box), that translates into an advantage for him. Because Tebow can go to an empty backfield without his team abandoning the threat of the run, he can have an extra receiver in pass patterns. That translates into an advantage for him. The things that Tebow can do that Clausen cannot translate into a variety of advantages for Tim Tebow. The pertinent question is whether those advantages are enough to overcome the advantages that a more traditional passer has over Tim Tebow. And the answer is... I don't know. Nobody does. But I'm really interested to find out.As I said, there are two ways to be the best. Either do the same thing that everyone else is doing better than everyone else is doing it, or else do something different. Think about the Pittsburgh Steelers bringing the 3-4 back into the league- how many late round "steals" did they get at LB just because they were looking for different attributes than the rest of the league? How many undrafted linemen did Denver turn into quality blockers because they prized speed while everyone else was drafting for strength? When New England looked at Wes Welker, did they see a WR who couldn't do what everyone else does as well as everyone else did it (like Miami and the rest of the league saw in him), or did they see someone capable of doing something different than anyone else in the league? Just because Tim Tebow can't do the same thing everyone else does better than they do it doesn't mean he can't be a quality NFL player.
I think this hits on a pretty strong part of why he's so polarizing. It's not just a question of Tim Tebow, in some ways, it's a question of challenging the status quo of what is expected from the position. From laughing at his jump passes to discounting the rushing TDs, a lot of this is whether a non traditional QB can work at the highest level. We've sort of done that before with the pocket passer vs scrambling QB thing but this feels even different than that. On another unrelated thought - the "character" thing is overblown I think. There are tons of great character guys in the draft. It almost feels like constantly talking about Tebow as if he's the only good guy in the draft discounts the many other good guys.And another related thought to that - I love the high character guys but I'm also a realist. I'm not sure how much that always matters. I'd venture to say teams like Army and Navy have a high number of players most of us would call "high character" guys. And Army and Navy suck relative to the big time college programs. So let's not get too carried away with the "character" stuff translating to NFL success. Don't get me wrong, I love that he's a good guy. I love that lots of other players are good guys. But I don't know how much that translates to success on the field. It does some. But probably not as much as we make it out to be.J
crush304
Footballguy
I think McDaniels is planning to install a spread option hybrid with Tebow starting as early as this year. The real experiment will be if the spread option is a legit nfl offence rather then if Tebow will ever develop into a classic drop back passer.
I think Tebow has the potential for unprecedented fantasy and nfl success
I think Tebow has the potential for unprecedented fantasy and nfl success
I do agree that his "good character" is really overplayed by the media... but I also think he's incredibly coachable, and I think that trait will probably serve him better than any other. The changes he made to his throwing motion in just one month were truly staggering. It's true that practice is different from a live game, but if he could get it that good in a month, imagine what he could do with a year of repetition and just driving it home.
Most of the creative offensive minds who were all speaking so highly of Tebow were saying pretty much the same thing. I believe that it was Bill Belichick who said that the spread option would never work in the NFL... unless you had Tim Tebow running it.
Tanner9919
Footballguy
as Gruden said, throwing mechanics are a bit overrated, Kosar/Rivers just a few examples..Tebow had a 70% comp percentage while playing in the SEC...the guy can play the game..
