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Time to stop the bad practice of designating sex on a birth certificate. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter parasaurolophus
- Start date
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't have an opinion on the birth certificate thing, but I'm ready to hitch my wagon to any argument that succeeds in getting rid of gender reveals even if it's a really stupid argument.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Did you start the thread to critique this position or to agree with it?parasaurolophus said:
the moops
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Yeah, for me this is a Chesterton Fence. I don't honestly know why sex appears on birth certificates now so I'm reluctant to change it, but I'm easily persuadable.
When did birth certificates become a thing? Probably before women could vote? So recording a person's sex would have been useful for determining voting eligibility at one point.
More recently, the sex designation on birth certificates could have been used to determine which couples were eligible to marry each other.
If those were the only good reasons for the fence, I think we can take it down now.
More recently, the sex designation on birth certificates could have been used to determine which couples were eligible to marry each other.
If those were the only good reasons for the fence, I think we can take it down now.
Sex is still relevant to which restrooms a person uses, but I doubt that birth certificates play a practical role there (and really shouldn't).
Sex is also relevant to which sports contests people are eligible to enter. Are birth certificates used for that?
Sex is also relevant to which sports contests people are eligible to enter. Are birth certificates used for that?
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dgreen
Footballguy
I've never had to produce a birth certificate for youth or high school sports. I guess that could be helpful if someone challenged whether an individual should be participating or not.
sho nuff
Footballguy
We had to each year my son was in travel soccer. But even that was more of age determination stuff. And the club kept a copy of everyone's to get their state player card that were then used each league game and tournament.
Tom Hagen
Footballguy
I need to submit a birth certificate for my daughter's travel soccer team. I assumed it was to verify the birth year to determine eligibility.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
But is it helpful if someone on testosterone with a beard shows a birth certificate that says he’s female?
It might be helpful if someone with breasts and without facial hair shows a birth certificate that says she's male.
I don't know what the rule is for whether people who've made the male-->female transition can participate in women's sports, but if they can't, that would be the situation where a birth certificate would come into play.
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The General
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Even if everything you said is correct, it still seems like that particular benefit is greatly outweighed by the detriment of having it on there for trans folks at large.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Sounds good to meparasaurolophus said:
the rover
Footballguy
What exactly is the detriment? If I legally change my name, I get an amended birth certificate reflecting that. If I legally change my gender, why would it be any different?
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I’m actually going through this process with my son right now. He was born in Massachusetts but we live in Maryland. So first we had to legally change his name in Maryland. That part took forever but was finally done a couple months ago. So then we could turn to the birth certificate. Massachusetts law requires that to change the gender on a birth certificate we not only need to send a copy of the name change order from the court, plus some money, we also need a notarized letter from a doctor. The letter is supposed to state that the patient “has completed medical intervention ... for the purpose of permanent sex reassignment.” But my kid’s doctor is like “that doesn’t make sense, he hasn’t completed anything, he just started taking testosterone 6 months ago. I don’t think I can sign that.” So I reached out to multiple trans advocacy groups in Massachusetts that were very helpful and they explained to me that the way they interpret the law “completed medical intervention” doesn’t actually mean completed all medical treatment, and anyway, if my doctor won’t sign the letter I can find another doctor that isn’t actually my son’s doctor that would be willing to write the letter. So a few days ago I had to write a lengthy email to my son’s doctor, explaining what I had learned about Massachusetts law, and politely asking him about the letter again. He hasn’t written back yet, hopefully he’ll just do it because it seems like a pain in the ### to find a doctor just to write a letter.
Anyway, I don’t think my situation is typical, but jumping through any sorts of bureaucratic hoops can be a significant imposition. And that imposition is being made on every transgender person in the country. Even though there doesn’t seem to be any particular need to have gender on there in the first place.
the rover
Footballguy
I agree that there shouldn’t be unnecessary bureaucratic hoops. I assumed that it would be a simple amendment, like a name change. I can’t really think of a benefit of having it on there, so I guess any detriment at all would be enough to convince me to get rid of it.
dgreen
Footballguy
I don’t think I did for club volleyball. I certainly don’t do it every year and I don’t remember doing it the first year, even as proof of age. But maybe I did. Idk.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I believe that many that work in the field were already asking for this well before December 2018. This isn’t an example of satire becoming reality. This is just someone that was ill informed or is bad at satire.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Birth certificates list sex (which can't be changed), not gender identity (which can).
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
What do you mean by “sex can’t be changed”?
ETA: This isn’t some gotcha question, I thought “gender” and “sex” were being used interchangeably in this context.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
In normal English, people use "sex" and "gender" interchangeably. In this specific context, it's a good idea to differentiate between biological sex -- which is real and immutable -- with gender identity -- which is social constructed and can be whatever we decide it should be. For example, you would want your doctor to know whether you were male or female because that has a lot to do with your risk for cervical cancer. I assume that doesn't really matter for birth certificate purposes though.
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whoknew
Footballguy
So the other issue with having sex on the birth certificate - I believe that the scientific consensus is that biological sex is not binary. So saying M or F on the birth certificate is limiting and not always accurate.
I preface this with saying I'm a neophyte at this. So if I'm wrong and the science has changed on this - please correct me.
I preface this with saying I'm a neophyte at this. So if I'm wrong and the science has changed on this - please correct me.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I'm not sure I agree that there is something called biological sex that is real and immutable. But that seems besides the point here.
If in fact birth certificates are being used for the purpose of describing your anatomy at birth that seems to be a significant reason to change course immediately. Under HIPAA, my doctor is prohibited by law from releasing information publicly that I, for example, had a mole removed. But at the same time we are asking everybody in the country to have a public document used for identification that reveals "I WAS BORN WITH A PENIS!" That seems insane to me.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I am comfortable ruling out the second possibility. Her twitter feed has a lot of good satire.
Whether biological sex is real and binary is really a semantic issue rather than a scientific one: it depends on how we define sex. There are definitions that are real and immutable and binary -- for mammals, for example, we can define "male" as having both X and Y chromosomes while a female has two X chromosomes.
It's not a very good definition for some purposes. Some people with X-Y chromosomes are born insensitive to androgen and basically their Y chromosome is largely ignored during development. So to all outward appearances (including external genitalia), they are female. Many such people go through their entire lives believing that they are female. (Why wouldn't they?) They don't have a uterus, don't menstruate, and can't get pregnant, but otherwise they present as female as far as anyone can tell without a DNA test.
So defining sex based on chromosomes -- or based on any other binary distinction, without any exception I can think of -- is going to appear kind of stupid for some purposes. The question is which imperfect distinction we should use. (I'd vote for letting people identify however they choose, including non-binary options, for most purposes.) But that's not a scientific question, so there really isn't a scientific answer one way or the other.
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knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Would it be wrong to just have them put “XY” or “XX” in the box?
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
For what purpose? And are you suggesting that we do a chromosomal test on every baby before issuing a birth certificate?
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
If we do this then we don't have any way to know if the POTUS was born in Kenya.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I've commented in the thread you have about Peter how awesome a Dad you are, so please don't think I'm being snark with my question here. But why does Peter care what his birth certificate says? A smart, well-adjusted kid like Peter should know that the birth certificate is meaningless when it comes to sexual identification (hopefully I'm using the term correctly).
By the way - I have no issue with taking it off completely too. I guess my point is I would hope that IF it doesn't get removed it's not something he dwells on. He's Peter - not something some piece of paper says.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Thanks. Switching the gender on his birth certificate is just part of the whole process of getting all of his identifications changed. Peter just got his drivers license a few months ago but it’s in his old name and it says he’s female. The easiest way for him to change his drivers license is to show them an updated birth certificate with his correct name and gender. Same with getting a passport. And a new social security card.
So yeah, if a birth certificate was just a dusty piece of paper that sat in a file somewhere it wouldn’t be as important to change it. But because it’s an important identifying document, the mismatch will continue to cause administrative challenges for him until it’s fixed.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This makes a lot of sense. A drivers license or passport doesn't work very well as a form of ID if it says that I'm female but I show up with a full beard and 225 lbs. of chiseled muscle. (Full disclosure: I'm not female and don't have any chiseled muscle. I do have the beard though, so there's that). This is an obvious area where biological sex is basically irrelevant but gender identity is fairly important.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Yep - agree on it making sense, thanks fatguy.
What does being gay have to do with any of this?*
*Where in SD do you live? Asking for a friend
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Shatner!
Footballguy
I used to think this way, but having a daughter who has come out as non-binary in the last couple of years has made me have to rethink a lot of things. I'd be lying if I said it's still not confusing to me. In some ways it would be alot easier if they had come out and said that they were a male. We're all still trying to adjust and support the best we can. It's a process.
My child recently shared this with me:
https://youtu.be/AqtxXKvgpEw
It's still all a bit confusing to my old school thinking but I kind of understand.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Sure, but your daughter still lives in a sexed body, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Shatner!
Footballguy
The problem is their brain doesn't identify with the sex of their body. That leads to dysphoria and alot of issues.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Oh yeah, I just came back to edit and say that there's also nothing with people adopting a non-standard gender identity. I didn't mean to deny the existence of gender dysphoria.
psychobillies
Footballguy
I'm gonna ask a question that will no doubt prove my ignorance on this subject, but what about prisons? If some guy gets 20 years, what prevents him from claiming to be a woman and going to a women's prison? Or what about a female who identifies as male? Does that person go to a male prison? Do people just get to choose? Once you have legally changed your gender do you have a choice?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
My serious answer is that I don't know about trans men, but life as a trans woman in a men's prison can't possibly be safe. I mean, theoretically we should improve our prisons so that everyone is safe wherever they're incarcerated, but knowing that that isn't the case, I have zero problem with trans women being incarcerated with women.
Sand
Footballguy
They're not.
An old one - we'd have to stop the Selective Service registration being one sided.
A new one - Title IX was setup to protect women's athletics. Removing this fence would destroy women's athletics permanently.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Sand
Footballguy
I can't think of anything in nature that's truly binary. But sex in mammals is close to binary.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I just went to the Social Service registration webpage and there was nothing about needing a birth certificate.
Sand
Footballguy
But some discrimination is necessary to keep women's sports exclusive to women. Right now that's done on a birth certificate.
Oh, you're being deliberately obtuse here.
Here is the page on penalties for failing to register. It's, obviously, directed at males and that classification is recorded in the US at birth, from the birth certificate.
No, not deliberately. I really don't see anything about a birth certificate. I can't rule out the idea that sex is determined by other means for purposes of required registration.
Even if a birth certificate is currently used, I'm not convinced that's the most sensible thing to go by.
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