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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)
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General Tso
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John Adams is the most consistently underrated and under appreciated founding father. And though I wouldn't call Sam Adams a founding father (he was more a revolutionary) I think the same can be said for him.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
Granted, I’m not his biggest fan, but to give Jefferson anything less than a 10 here isn’t fair. His presidency was marked by him and his supporters as the revolution of 1800 and signaled, to them and eventually the nation, a change in how the country operated, looking more towards a much weaker national government. The republican change wasn’t without opposition by the Federalists but the writing was on the wall and Jefferson led this country for 8 rather successful years.
He had an agenda that he stuck to for the most part and got just about everything passed and changed in the country that he wanted. He even changed his own position on certain things, things he attacked Washington and Adams for, while President and has reaped the rewards of history for it. Overall, just looking at his 8 years in office, we have to give the man credit for being someone who knew how to work with the opinion of the people, shape it, use it to his advantage and when necessary lead it to where he wanted it to go. It of course helped that Adams was right about France and Jefferson didn’t have to deal with the failure of his own position just 2 years earlier, but I’ll be good and not get into that here.
War & Crisis
The Federalists, prior to Adams leaving office, passed the Judiciary Act to allow for the appointment of a slew of federal judges that would be Federalist. Jefferson fought that almost immediately upon taking office. Eventually, the Congress passed a bill repealing the act that was eventually culminated in the Marbury v. Madison decision. The crisis of using and controlling the judiciary was resolved for several hundred years for the most part with that holding.
Soon thereafter, Judge John Pickering is impeached and removed from office by Jefferson’s party. Jefferson’s leadership of his party to rid the judiciary of Federalists was a crisis that he managed perfectly.
The America merchant ship Essex violated the Neutrality Treaty that America enjoyed with Britain as it was bringing supplies and trade to France. Britain basically ignores the treaty from that point and begins another maritime war with America. Jefferson had reduced funding for the navy and warships instead focusing on harbor defenses and the decrease of naval power basically resulted in America having no defense to British boats seizing American ones on the seas. It doesn’t help that just 3 months later then Battle of Trafalgar happens and with the victory there, the British control the Atlantic Ocean for a century. Jefferson’s continued support of France in the face of Britain put America in a dangerous position at this point. His failure to see what Washington and Adams saw in that eternal European conflict led directly to the War of 1812.
To try to stem the growing tide of British power in the Atlantic, Jefferson sent Secretary Monroe to England to negotiate a new treaty with the British. Incapable of trusting the Americans and especially Jefferson, the British only agree to a few points in the discussions and refuse under all circumstances to stop seizing American ships and capturing escaped sailors from those ships. Monroe returned with the Monroe-Pickney treaty under those terms and Jefferson refused to even bring it to Congress to be ratified. With that there was no peace with England and no hope of stopping the War of 1812.
Jefferson also had to deal with the alleged treason of his former Vice President, Aaron Burr. Accused of this treason for allegedly trying to form his own republic, Burr was captured while Jefferson was still President. Jefferson wanted him found guilty. But Jefferson and John Marshall weren’t exactly the best of friends and Marshall used the opportunity in that trial to make it impossible for the government to prove its case. Burr’s reputation was destroyed once and for all after that, but Jefferson didn’t get the satisfaction of doing it himself.
Shortly after the failure of the Monroe treaty, the USS Cheasepeake was attacked by a British ship off the coast of Virginia. The public now fully behind Jefferson and his anti-British policies, he orders all British ships out of American waters. But he has no ability to enforce that. To try to force Britain to calm down, Jefferson fought for the Embargo Act of 1807 which made illegal all foreign commerce. American ships were only allowed into American ports and could not go overseas legally. Jefferson hoped that the lost revenue in England would result in peace. IT was one more nail in the coffin that led to the War of 1812. And it also hurt the economy for obvious reasons.
When American ships refused to abide by the embargo (because obviously it would bankrupt all of them) Jefferson declared the main American waterways to be in a state of rebellion and tried to enforce the law with military and police powers. He got the Enforcement Act of 1809 passed to give him the power to do it. But facing immense pressure from his own party at that point, Jefferson agrees to the Non-Intercourse Act of 1809 just a few months later. This law allowed all foreign trade with every country on the planet except France and England. Trade with those nations would only be allowed if they accepted American neutrality. Again, given 1812, we know that didn’t work too well, but it stem the tide of growing problems in the nation and the economy.
Jefferson also dropped the ball with regards to Spain and Haiti. Wanting Florida for America Jefferson threatened Spain to no avail (we had no navy to do anything to them) and when that didn’t work he simply claimed much of the land of the state for America thinking that he could just do that. Spain ignored the act completely. It was later discovered that Jefferson tried to bride France to support his acquisition of Spain and the whole affair blew up in his face.
In Haiti, Jefferson refused to support its rising republic and revolution with France in the hopes that Napoleon would support him in Florida and other areas. It didn’t work and in the end the Haitian republic was not recognized by Jefferson as a legitimate country.
Finally, Jefferson had to deal with the Barbary Pirates. Washington and Adams were paying them off. Jefferson was too, but with his weakness showing in the Caribbean they started attacking more ships. Jefferson sent a naval force to Tripoli to end the “war” and it succeeded, however he continued to pay them their blackmail money throughout the rest of his term.
Economy
Jefferson’s first course of action for the economy was to repeal all the taxes that the federalists wanted, such as the whiskey tax that led to Washington commanding troops into Pennsylvania. The repeal had the desired effect of getting more popular support and with it the economy boomed. The economy itself remained rather strong for Jefferson with the only hiccup being the embargo act he passed to fight with Britain. IT was quickly repealed because just about every merchant ship tried to avoid it and upon repeal the economy steadied itself for the most part.
The purchase of the Louisiana territory also helped to bolster the country’s economic outlook given the amount of land and waterways it included. All told, the economy was at worst the same when he left office as when he left. But there was a poison pill there and that was the continued attacks by British forces in the seas. Madison had to deal with that 4 years later.
But his overall goal of eliminating all federal debt was pretty much achieved.
Foreign Policy
Much of it was hit on because a lot of it was war related and directly connected to France and Britain. He did get Napoleon to sell Louisiana – well, his commissioners did. He was initially opposed to it. He failed to show any true strength with Spain. British ships used American ships as training exercises. France used him when they wanted, and when they didn’t they ignored him as in the fight over Florida. All in all, Jefferson’s foreign policy was about as close to naïve as we can define the term for someone that wasn’t naïve. It was by no means a success and his continued failures to handle the issues the way his predecessors did led to all out war.
Executive Skills/Congress
Jefferson gets top marks here. The republican revolution of 1800 led to the eventual total control of the government by Jefferson and his party. He pretty much got everything through Congress he wanted and his surrogates there did what he asked for. As a result he never had to veto a piece of legislation. He reduced the size of the federal government and lowered taxes, and with that there were fewer government officials to deal with. All in all, as far as managers go, he was successful in getting everything he asked for as President.
Justice/Rights
Jefferson championed the ability for more “common people” to vote. His election was the first that was really campaigned for, albeit in a much cruder sense then we think now. He began pressuring all states to allow more people to vote, and by doing that allow more “regular people” into positions of government. This resulted, by the end of his term in office, with just about every state having universal voting rights for white men.
Jefferson was the first President to have an Indian removal policy. Where Washington was dealing with a war, Jefferson simply began trying to remove them from where he needed land, most notably in Georgia. We all know the story of Jefferson and his slaves. No need to go there. And he refused to assist the republican revolution in Haiti of former slaves and in doing so seemed to stand against everything he claimed to stand for when he supported France and its revolution.
Context
In the context of the times, Thomas Jefferson was a great man. History does well to remember him. I’ve opined for years that he gets too much credit for certain things, but many of that is not from the time he was President. As President, he worked on several crisis’ but wasn’t great, led a pretty stable economy, increased voting rights for white men, expanded the size of the country while at the same time reduced the size of government. He was exceptional in leading his party and with it Congress, and the people of the country basically loved him throughout the entire time. He wasn’t perfect and there were problems, but his presidency wasn’t bad either.
The one crisis not mentioned was his first election. Electors didn’t grant him the win outright. Instead it was a long drawn out fight that was the first direct attack on the Constitutional system for electing a President. Jefferson played up the non-interest the public expected, but behind closed doors, during the election of 1800 and the subsequent dealings with the House of Representatives, Jefferson with the help of his closest aide, James Madison, played a masterful game of politics that allowed the system to work through that crisis and not lead to problems that could have destroyed the character of the office.
Conclusion
On persuasion Thomas gets a 9, on crisis he gets a 4, on the economy he gets a 9, foreign policy a 4, congress he gets a 10, civil rights he gets a 7 and context he gets a 7. Thomas Jefferson was our first “great politician.” The skills that we grant to Reagan, Clinton and Obama were found initially in Thomas Jefferson. With an initial raw score of 50 he is slightly above Adams in the initial score, but well below Washington. Thomas Jefferson’s legacy is not going to ever be limited by me and people that don’t believe he was our gift from God because the rest of the people outnumber us 50-1. But Jefferson had flaws. A lot of them. When you look at his presidency, his foreign policy and how he dealt with France, Britain and to a lesser extent Spain shows weakness that he couldn’t overcome and plans and laws passed that ultimately led to the War of 1812. Some would say that that war was coming anyway given how Britain reacted to the Treaty of Paris and the creation of the country. But Washington and Adams didn’t let it get there. Jefferson in wanting to change the nature of the government into what he believed was right, shed the careful neutrality just enough to weaken our nation. Britain didn’t come along, France used him and Spain laughed at him. At a time when foreign policy was immensely important to the still being born nation, he needed to do a better job.
Public Acumen/Persuasion
Granted, I’m not his biggest fan, but to give Jefferson anything less than a 10 here isn’t fair. His presidency was marked by him and his supporters as the revolution of 1800 and signaled, to them and eventually the nation, a change in how the country operated, looking more towards a much weaker national government. The republican change wasn’t without opposition by the Federalists but the writing was on the wall and Jefferson led this country for 8 rather successful years.
He had an agenda that he stuck to for the most part and got just about everything passed and changed in the country that he wanted. He even changed his own position on certain things, things he attacked Washington and Adams for, while President and has reaped the rewards of history for it. Overall, just looking at his 8 years in office, we have to give the man credit for being someone who knew how to work with the opinion of the people, shape it, use it to his advantage and when necessary lead it to where he wanted it to go. It of course helped that Adams was right about France and Jefferson didn’t have to deal with the failure of his own position just 2 years earlier, but I’ll be good and not get into that here.
War & Crisis
The Federalists, prior to Adams leaving office, passed the Judiciary Act to allow for the appointment of a slew of federal judges that would be Federalist. Jefferson fought that almost immediately upon taking office. Eventually, the Congress passed a bill repealing the act that was eventually culminated in the Marbury v. Madison decision. The crisis of using and controlling the judiciary was resolved for several hundred years for the most part with that holding.
Soon thereafter, Judge John Pickering is impeached and removed from office by Jefferson’s party. Jefferson’s leadership of his party to rid the judiciary of Federalists was a crisis that he managed perfectly.
The America merchant ship Essex violated the Neutrality Treaty that America enjoyed with Britain as it was bringing supplies and trade to France. Britain basically ignores the treaty from that point and begins another maritime war with America. Jefferson had reduced funding for the navy and warships instead focusing on harbor defenses and the decrease of naval power basically resulted in America having no defense to British boats seizing American ones on the seas. It doesn’t help that just 3 months later then Battle of Trafalgar happens and with the victory there, the British control the Atlantic Ocean for a century. Jefferson’s continued support of France in the face of Britain put America in a dangerous position at this point. His failure to see what Washington and Adams saw in that eternal European conflict led directly to the War of 1812.
To try to stem the growing tide of British power in the Atlantic, Jefferson sent Secretary Monroe to England to negotiate a new treaty with the British. Incapable of trusting the Americans and especially Jefferson, the British only agree to a few points in the discussions and refuse under all circumstances to stop seizing American ships and capturing escaped sailors from those ships. Monroe returned with the Monroe-Pickney treaty under those terms and Jefferson refused to even bring it to Congress to be ratified. With that there was no peace with England and no hope of stopping the War of 1812.
Jefferson also had to deal with the alleged treason of his former Vice President, Aaron Burr. Accused of this treason for allegedly trying to form his own republic, Burr was captured while Jefferson was still President. Jefferson wanted him found guilty. But Jefferson and John Marshall weren’t exactly the best of friends and Marshall used the opportunity in that trial to make it impossible for the government to prove its case. Burr’s reputation was destroyed once and for all after that, but Jefferson didn’t get the satisfaction of doing it himself.
Shortly after the failure of the Monroe treaty, the USS Cheasepeake was attacked by a British ship off the coast of Virginia. The public now fully behind Jefferson and his anti-British policies, he orders all British ships out of American waters. But he has no ability to enforce that. To try to force Britain to calm down, Jefferson fought for the Embargo Act of 1807 which made illegal all foreign commerce. American ships were only allowed into American ports and could not go overseas legally. Jefferson hoped that the lost revenue in England would result in peace. IT was one more nail in the coffin that led to the War of 1812. And it also hurt the economy for obvious reasons.
When American ships refused to abide by the embargo (because obviously it would bankrupt all of them) Jefferson declared the main American waterways to be in a state of rebellion and tried to enforce the law with military and police powers. He got the Enforcement Act of 1809 passed to give him the power to do it. But facing immense pressure from his own party at that point, Jefferson agrees to the Non-Intercourse Act of 1809 just a few months later. This law allowed all foreign trade with every country on the planet except France and England. Trade with those nations would only be allowed if they accepted American neutrality. Again, given 1812, we know that didn’t work too well, but it stem the tide of growing problems in the nation and the economy.
Jefferson also dropped the ball with regards to Spain and Haiti. Wanting Florida for America Jefferson threatened Spain to no avail (we had no navy to do anything to them) and when that didn’t work he simply claimed much of the land of the state for America thinking that he could just do that. Spain ignored the act completely. It was later discovered that Jefferson tried to bride France to support his acquisition of Spain and the whole affair blew up in his face.
In Haiti, Jefferson refused to support its rising republic and revolution with France in the hopes that Napoleon would support him in Florida and other areas. It didn’t work and in the end the Haitian republic was not recognized by Jefferson as a legitimate country.
Finally, Jefferson had to deal with the Barbary Pirates. Washington and Adams were paying them off. Jefferson was too, but with his weakness showing in the Caribbean they started attacking more ships. Jefferson sent a naval force to Tripoli to end the “war” and it succeeded, however he continued to pay them their blackmail money throughout the rest of his term.
Economy
Jefferson’s first course of action for the economy was to repeal all the taxes that the federalists wanted, such as the whiskey tax that led to Washington commanding troops into Pennsylvania. The repeal had the desired effect of getting more popular support and with it the economy boomed. The economy itself remained rather strong for Jefferson with the only hiccup being the embargo act he passed to fight with Britain. IT was quickly repealed because just about every merchant ship tried to avoid it and upon repeal the economy steadied itself for the most part.
The purchase of the Louisiana territory also helped to bolster the country’s economic outlook given the amount of land and waterways it included. All told, the economy was at worst the same when he left office as when he left. But there was a poison pill there and that was the continued attacks by British forces in the seas. Madison had to deal with that 4 years later.
But his overall goal of eliminating all federal debt was pretty much achieved.
Foreign Policy
Much of it was hit on because a lot of it was war related and directly connected to France and Britain. He did get Napoleon to sell Louisiana – well, his commissioners did. He was initially opposed to it. He failed to show any true strength with Spain. British ships used American ships as training exercises. France used him when they wanted, and when they didn’t they ignored him as in the fight over Florida. All in all, Jefferson’s foreign policy was about as close to naïve as we can define the term for someone that wasn’t naïve. It was by no means a success and his continued failures to handle the issues the way his predecessors did led to all out war.
Executive Skills/Congress
Jefferson gets top marks here. The republican revolution of 1800 led to the eventual total control of the government by Jefferson and his party. He pretty much got everything through Congress he wanted and his surrogates there did what he asked for. As a result he never had to veto a piece of legislation. He reduced the size of the federal government and lowered taxes, and with that there were fewer government officials to deal with. All in all, as far as managers go, he was successful in getting everything he asked for as President.
Justice/Rights
Jefferson championed the ability for more “common people” to vote. His election was the first that was really campaigned for, albeit in a much cruder sense then we think now. He began pressuring all states to allow more people to vote, and by doing that allow more “regular people” into positions of government. This resulted, by the end of his term in office, with just about every state having universal voting rights for white men.
Jefferson was the first President to have an Indian removal policy. Where Washington was dealing with a war, Jefferson simply began trying to remove them from where he needed land, most notably in Georgia. We all know the story of Jefferson and his slaves. No need to go there. And he refused to assist the republican revolution in Haiti of former slaves and in doing so seemed to stand against everything he claimed to stand for when he supported France and its revolution.
Context
In the context of the times, Thomas Jefferson was a great man. History does well to remember him. I’ve opined for years that he gets too much credit for certain things, but many of that is not from the time he was President. As President, he worked on several crisis’ but wasn’t great, led a pretty stable economy, increased voting rights for white men, expanded the size of the country while at the same time reduced the size of government. He was exceptional in leading his party and with it Congress, and the people of the country basically loved him throughout the entire time. He wasn’t perfect and there were problems, but his presidency wasn’t bad either.
The one crisis not mentioned was his first election. Electors didn’t grant him the win outright. Instead it was a long drawn out fight that was the first direct attack on the Constitutional system for electing a President. Jefferson played up the non-interest the public expected, but behind closed doors, during the election of 1800 and the subsequent dealings with the House of Representatives, Jefferson with the help of his closest aide, James Madison, played a masterful game of politics that allowed the system to work through that crisis and not lead to problems that could have destroyed the character of the office.
Conclusion
On persuasion Thomas gets a 9, on crisis he gets a 4, on the economy he gets a 9, foreign policy a 4, congress he gets a 10, civil rights he gets a 7 and context he gets a 7. Thomas Jefferson was our first “great politician.” The skills that we grant to Reagan, Clinton and Obama were found initially in Thomas Jefferson. With an initial raw score of 50 he is slightly above Adams in the initial score, but well below Washington. Thomas Jefferson’s legacy is not going to ever be limited by me and people that don’t believe he was our gift from God because the rest of the people outnumber us 50-1. But Jefferson had flaws. A lot of them. When you look at his presidency, his foreign policy and how he dealt with France, Britain and to a lesser extent Spain shows weakness that he couldn’t overcome and plans and laws passed that ultimately led to the War of 1812. Some would say that that war was coming anyway given how Britain reacted to the Treaty of Paris and the creation of the country. But Washington and Adams didn’t let it get there. Jefferson in wanting to change the nature of the government into what he believed was right, shed the careful neutrality just enough to weaken our nation. Britain didn’t come along, France used him and Spain laughed at him. At a time when foreign policy was immensely important to the still being born nation, he needed to do a better job.
GibbyGarcia
Footballguy
I just read through this incredible thread over the past two days. Started to post several times before realizing that the debate being had was literally weeks/months ago. Excellent work Tim. Agree or disagree, I thought you did a fine job of rationalizing your rankings and I'm guessing more than a few fbg's learned some things.
Editing to add something I forgot, that this initially began as a discussion on how much posting Tim had been doing. Finished up just a quick 159 PAGES later....
Editing to add something I forgot, that this initially began as a discussion on how much posting Tim had been doing. Finished up just a quick 159 PAGES later....
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
Finished? I'm not finished!
I'm just enjoying Yankee's posts while trying to decide what the next topic is going to be. Should I continue with Russian history, or make a list of the greatest Americans of all time?
whoknew
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
It's going to take me awhile to get through all 43.
I vote for greatest Americans though.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK. 100 greatest Americans. I'll get to work on that. Should be fun.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I want YOU to make a list of the top 20 most corrupt Louisianans. That would be a great list, and you can do it.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
James Madison (1809-1817)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
You know, when you step back and think for a minute our first four President’s, Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison could very well also be our 4 greatest Americans. It’s remarkable. Then when you add Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Hamilton, we were really blessed and lucky as a nation to have these men all together at the same time. But, back on topic, Madison’s great additions to our nation prior to 1809 aren’t part of the scoring.
What is part of the scoring is Madison’s persuasive power while President. Almost immediately upon entering office he had to deal with the problem of England that Jefferson left him. He tried to work out a peace but got nowhere. The public opinion was moving more towards war. Madison resisted that for awhile. In fact Madison’s power prior to being President was laid in the fact that he wasn’t a great presence in a room, wasn’t a great speaker, and wasn’t anyone that would invoke feelings of power that you want to follow. We will see below that he had a lot of problems, actually, as President because he didn’t have the stature that his predecessors had.
But, by the end of the War of 1812, he was able to lead a rather small rebirth in the nation. There is really not much that you can lay at his feet and say that he pulled the nation with him. He continued Jefferson’s policies for the most part and towards the end of his term he began focusing more on his legacy for history then anything else. In short (pun intended) his ranking here would really be rather average at best.
War & Crisis
Madison was the first President to fight a war on American soil. The history of the War of 1812 has been taught to everyone in this country so it’s necessary to repeat. Jefferson saddled Madison with an impending war but Madison did nothing to help himself. Henry Clay in Congress led the public surge for war and for much of the war, the prosecution of it was handled just as much by Clay as it was by Madison.
His first term was basically focused on trying to stop war with England, prepare for a war with England and hoping that whatever happened the country would survive. The small depression that Jefferson caused with the Embargo Act was bettered and the build up for war helped the economy. By the time Madison was reelected, Napoleon plunged Europe into all out war and America was caught up in it.
While the British basically started the war in the Atlantic they also began arming Indian tribes in the west in lands that America had control of through prior administrations. The result, in the end, was that Madison had no choice but to ask Congress to make ready for war. His cabinet was split, state governors were split over using militias, the navy was almost nonexistent because of Jefferson. He was going and did enter a war without the ability to fight the war. If not for the efforts of Andrew Jackson and William Henry Harrison in the west, it’s entirely possible that the crushing assaults in the west would have hamstrung Madison from fighting the British in the east and the country would have fallen.
Meanwhile, the British did invade Washington and burn the city to the ground, the White House included. This is not a good thing for a President. Madison remains the only President to lose control of Washington DC during a time of war – something we only see is dystopian movies these days. In the end, like the Western front in World War the war was fought to a stand still. England needed to deal with France, not America, and just like during the revolution they couldn’t possibly control the continent an ocean away. The Treaty of Ghent ended the war in that stalemate. British attacks on American naval vessels effectively ended and many in America chalked it up as a massive victory and second war for independence. The reality is neither party had the heart or will to keep the war going.
Madison took and deserves to take a lot of hits for empowering military commanders for solely political reasons even in the face of their incompetence. Madison also tried to kill the First Bank of the United States in true Jeffersonian fashion. Congress commissioned the second Bank and he vetoed the act. He finally realized that he needed a national bank and system in place to fund the war with England so he signed the Second Bank Charter begrudgingly.
Economy
England created problems with the economy that led to war. He fought the first Bank of the United States and the second only allowing it to exist when he had no choice. But following the war, the economy boomed. Low interest loans were handed out like candy, the Second Bank helped people buy land and everything looked good. He established a more reasonable system of tarrifs and taxes from the lack of them that existed under Jefferson. And he funded a lot of internal improvements to the nation. The economy was better when he left then when he started. War tends to do that. His initial mistakes there were corrected though.
Foreign Policy
He had to fight the War of 1812. That pretty much consumed his presidency with regards to foreign affairs. The European wars changed the nature of South America and the Atlantic ocean. But he fought the war poorly and only Britain’s inability to continue it was his savior.
Executive Skills/Congress
Immediately upon taking office he was rebuked for his selection of Secretary of State. Trying to keep the Congress is good working order his relented. He fought with Congress over the Bank. He even ended up vetoing some of his own internal improvement bills. He was prone to lecture Congress on their powers, having, you know, been the man that actually is credited with creating them. His party split over the War of 1812 and with it his power in Congress did as well. He was mediocre here at worst with Congress, and the manner in which he ran the government, watching Washington burn to the ground as he barely escaped the city, isn’t exactly confidence inspiring either.
Justice/Rights
Madison ordered the military to protect Indian lands from white settlers. In public. In private he had the same views as Jefferson and he did little to stop his generals from ignoring him. General Jackson basically ignored him and let white settlers take Indian land. By the end of his administration, any Indian claims to any land in the Ohio valley was basically gone. Much of the rest of the issues that could review here didn’t get any play during his time in office as it was mostly concerned with the war.
Context
Madison was a weak President but a great man. He wasn’t able to muster enough to win the War of 1812. He fought with his own Congress. He was very much an extension of Jefferson while in office, but without the stature of Jefferson. When you read the history of the War of 1812 it can be a little amazing that we didn’t lose a lot more, but that isn’t a credit to Madison. It’s an understanding of the limitations of England. He was a slave owner though his slaves that kept notes and wrote stories about him say that he was a gentle owner that never beat them and treated them with some respect. Finally, he didn’t either understand the need for a national economy, or he allowed his own political power base to control what should have happened. He allowed politics too much influence in important policy. All the President from this time on fail there so he isn’t hit hard for it.
Conclusion
Madison gets a 5 for persuasion, a 4 for crisis, a 6 for economy, a 4 for foreign policy, a 7 for Congress, a 6 for civil rights and a 7 for context. When you truly break down his time as President, void of attachment to the greatness he gave us prior to that time working with Jefferson, the first Congress, the Federalist Papers, the Continental Congress and the Constitution itself, you must come to the conclusion that this was a great man but a weak fairly average President. His raw score sits at 39. Lower than Adams which seems odd since he served two terms. It’s obviously lower than Jefferson and Washington. It’s only a raw score so there is movement still to be done. Maybe. A truly great man and one of our finest ever. His best years though were prior to assuming the highest office in the land.
Public Acumen/Persuasion
You know, when you step back and think for a minute our first four President’s, Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison could very well also be our 4 greatest Americans. It’s remarkable. Then when you add Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Hamilton, we were really blessed and lucky as a nation to have these men all together at the same time. But, back on topic, Madison’s great additions to our nation prior to 1809 aren’t part of the scoring.
What is part of the scoring is Madison’s persuasive power while President. Almost immediately upon entering office he had to deal with the problem of England that Jefferson left him. He tried to work out a peace but got nowhere. The public opinion was moving more towards war. Madison resisted that for awhile. In fact Madison’s power prior to being President was laid in the fact that he wasn’t a great presence in a room, wasn’t a great speaker, and wasn’t anyone that would invoke feelings of power that you want to follow. We will see below that he had a lot of problems, actually, as President because he didn’t have the stature that his predecessors had.
But, by the end of the War of 1812, he was able to lead a rather small rebirth in the nation. There is really not much that you can lay at his feet and say that he pulled the nation with him. He continued Jefferson’s policies for the most part and towards the end of his term he began focusing more on his legacy for history then anything else. In short (pun intended) his ranking here would really be rather average at best.
War & Crisis
Madison was the first President to fight a war on American soil. The history of the War of 1812 has been taught to everyone in this country so it’s necessary to repeat. Jefferson saddled Madison with an impending war but Madison did nothing to help himself. Henry Clay in Congress led the public surge for war and for much of the war, the prosecution of it was handled just as much by Clay as it was by Madison.
His first term was basically focused on trying to stop war with England, prepare for a war with England and hoping that whatever happened the country would survive. The small depression that Jefferson caused with the Embargo Act was bettered and the build up for war helped the economy. By the time Madison was reelected, Napoleon plunged Europe into all out war and America was caught up in it.
While the British basically started the war in the Atlantic they also began arming Indian tribes in the west in lands that America had control of through prior administrations. The result, in the end, was that Madison had no choice but to ask Congress to make ready for war. His cabinet was split, state governors were split over using militias, the navy was almost nonexistent because of Jefferson. He was going and did enter a war without the ability to fight the war. If not for the efforts of Andrew Jackson and William Henry Harrison in the west, it’s entirely possible that the crushing assaults in the west would have hamstrung Madison from fighting the British in the east and the country would have fallen.
Meanwhile, the British did invade Washington and burn the city to the ground, the White House included. This is not a good thing for a President. Madison remains the only President to lose control of Washington DC during a time of war – something we only see is dystopian movies these days. In the end, like the Western front in World War the war was fought to a stand still. England needed to deal with France, not America, and just like during the revolution they couldn’t possibly control the continent an ocean away. The Treaty of Ghent ended the war in that stalemate. British attacks on American naval vessels effectively ended and many in America chalked it up as a massive victory and second war for independence. The reality is neither party had the heart or will to keep the war going.
Madison took and deserves to take a lot of hits for empowering military commanders for solely political reasons even in the face of their incompetence. Madison also tried to kill the First Bank of the United States in true Jeffersonian fashion. Congress commissioned the second Bank and he vetoed the act. He finally realized that he needed a national bank and system in place to fund the war with England so he signed the Second Bank Charter begrudgingly.
Economy
England created problems with the economy that led to war. He fought the first Bank of the United States and the second only allowing it to exist when he had no choice. But following the war, the economy boomed. Low interest loans were handed out like candy, the Second Bank helped people buy land and everything looked good. He established a more reasonable system of tarrifs and taxes from the lack of them that existed under Jefferson. And he funded a lot of internal improvements to the nation. The economy was better when he left then when he started. War tends to do that. His initial mistakes there were corrected though.
Foreign Policy
He had to fight the War of 1812. That pretty much consumed his presidency with regards to foreign affairs. The European wars changed the nature of South America and the Atlantic ocean. But he fought the war poorly and only Britain’s inability to continue it was his savior.
Executive Skills/Congress
Immediately upon taking office he was rebuked for his selection of Secretary of State. Trying to keep the Congress is good working order his relented. He fought with Congress over the Bank. He even ended up vetoing some of his own internal improvement bills. He was prone to lecture Congress on their powers, having, you know, been the man that actually is credited with creating them. His party split over the War of 1812 and with it his power in Congress did as well. He was mediocre here at worst with Congress, and the manner in which he ran the government, watching Washington burn to the ground as he barely escaped the city, isn’t exactly confidence inspiring either.
Justice/Rights
Madison ordered the military to protect Indian lands from white settlers. In public. In private he had the same views as Jefferson and he did little to stop his generals from ignoring him. General Jackson basically ignored him and let white settlers take Indian land. By the end of his administration, any Indian claims to any land in the Ohio valley was basically gone. Much of the rest of the issues that could review here didn’t get any play during his time in office as it was mostly concerned with the war.
Context
Madison was a weak President but a great man. He wasn’t able to muster enough to win the War of 1812. He fought with his own Congress. He was very much an extension of Jefferson while in office, but without the stature of Jefferson. When you read the history of the War of 1812 it can be a little amazing that we didn’t lose a lot more, but that isn’t a credit to Madison. It’s an understanding of the limitations of England. He was a slave owner though his slaves that kept notes and wrote stories about him say that he was a gentle owner that never beat them and treated them with some respect. Finally, he didn’t either understand the need for a national economy, or he allowed his own political power base to control what should have happened. He allowed politics too much influence in important policy. All the President from this time on fail there so he isn’t hit hard for it.
Conclusion
Madison gets a 5 for persuasion, a 4 for crisis, a 6 for economy, a 4 for foreign policy, a 7 for Congress, a 6 for civil rights and a 7 for context. When you truly break down his time as President, void of attachment to the greatness he gave us prior to that time working with Jefferson, the first Congress, the Federalist Papers, the Continental Congress and the Constitution itself, you must come to the conclusion that this was a great man but a weak fairly average President. His raw score sits at 39. Lower than Adams which seems odd since he served two terms. It’s obviously lower than Jefferson and Washington. It’s only a raw score so there is movement still to be done. Maybe. A truly great man and one of our finest ever. His best years though were prior to assuming the highest office in the land.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK I have compiled my list of the 100 greatest Americans, and I will begin THE COUNTDOWN tomorrow.
Clue for #100- An athlete, winner of Sportsman of the Year, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom, whose brother was a MLB baseball pitcher...
Clue for #100- An athlete, winner of Sportsman of the Year, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom, whose brother was a MLB baseball pitcher...
timschochet
Footballguy
Oh I'm gonna let him keep doing it. And I will comment, too. Plenty of room for both.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Arg, y'er killin' me, tempting, that's tough, convicted and out of office and dead also? I might not get out the 1930s.timschochet said:
Tecumseh
Footballguy
Saints- Out of curiosity, do you know anything about Jimmy Fitzmorris? A company I used to work for hired him as a consultant. I met with him several times, and he was always very gracious and helpful.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Funny first time I read this I thought you meant Jim Fitzmorris and I deleted my response just now. - I know some about Jimmy (or his lore I guess), I even met him once or twice IIRC and I saw him speak at a program I attended ages ago. Fascinating guy, he has the whole history of NO politics in his head. I want to say he's Irish Channel Old Regular with the Comiskey crew, but I wouldn't want to be wrong on that. Anyway, yeah, I think he's one of the good guys, great classic, ward politician and if I see him again I will buy him a drink for sure.
Shankopotamus
Footballguy
Yankee Totals (max 70)
Washington 64
Jefferson 50
Adams 46
Madison 39
Washington 64
Jefferson 50
Adams 46
Madison 39
Funny that you use these two arguments to support your top two presidents when….
You are the biggest Hillary supporter on this board.
And you are a huge proponent of status quo.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Presidents, Statesmen, Founding Fathers, Generals, Civil Rights Leaders, Scientists/Inventors/Researchers, Physicians/Innovators, Authors, Artists, Soldiers, this will be no small task.timschochet said:
msommer
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
James Monroe (1817-1825)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
James Monroe gets a solid 10 here without too much debate. Entering office after Madison and the War of 1812, he had no true opposition from the Federalist who were dying as a party. Monroe’s ability to lead and speak directly to the people finally killed that party once and for all. In fact Monroe and his party were so good at this point that with no serious opposition of any kind, his own party stopped meeting as a collective.
Monroe’s time in office is dubbed The Era of Good Feelings. This was due to many factors, but his ability here was one of them. He embarked on three countrywide tours where the common people met him spoke with him and almost universally came away liking and respecting him even more then they had before. He played the public face of the office about as well as you good and was cheered for it. His top score isn’t for his great presence in a room and oratory skills but because he simply knew how to talk to people and without any opposition did not become a dictator but was basically the very embodiment of a republican.
War & Crisis
Coming off the War of 1812 and the end to the Napoleonic wars, the world was a little bit of a mess. So was America. The building economy that Madison managed after the War led to a panic in 1819 as the housing market and banking system burst a bubble. Monroe’s leadership during this time though is generally regarding as rather exceptional and given his tours and his leadership abilities his personal rating never really took a massive hit for it and the country got out of the panic in a way that gives him good marks for crisis management.
Monroe still General Andrew Jackson in the south but he also had John Quincy Adams in the State Department and combined the three of them managed to finally get Florida from Spain in a rather great example of diplomacy by Adams and leadership by Monroe. It helped that Jackson never really answered to anyone but himself. The changes to colonialism in South America led Monroe to issue his great Monroe Doctrine. That policy was America’s bedrock foreign policy since. It came to light years later that the speech Monroe gave outlining the policy and much of the policy itself was the brainchild of Adams, and he specifically worked with ministers from England on the policy. Still, Monroe does deserve the credit for empowering Adams to do it, he supported it, and he backed it as President. Jefferson would have failed to do something like this, as probably John Adams Sr. would have as well.
Monroe’s quest for Florida did result in a Seminole War. He allowed Andrew Jackson to fire shots that did ultimately result in America gaining Florida from Spain. Congress investigated Jackson for alleged war crimes but it never went anywhere and in the end they backed Monroe and his general.
Finally, the treaty of 1818, not so much a crisis but certainly an act that war implications, granted America lands to the pacific ocean. The map we have now is very much a result of Monroe, and his great diplomat John Quincy Adams’ work to get that treaty. It was also during Monroe’s presidency that Missouri sought to gain statehood as a slave state. The crisis that developed from there led to the Missouri Compromise. A good bill at the time, it was one of the precursors to civil war just 40 years later.
Economy
Monroe did have to suffer a depression coming off of Madison’s ungreat leadership of the economy and the results of the War of 1812 but his popularity never took a hit for it. By the end of his term the economy was moving again, and with the acquisition of Florida and all of the middle and western lands that make up our country now Monroe put America on an economic path that gave us the natural resources to be a world power. Monroe took some criticism for not doing more to quickly end the Panic of 1819 but the manner in which the Second Bank of the United States operated did not give him the ability to come up with any great quick fixes. He did support and eventually got through Congress a bill that allowed for deferments of interest payments to the federal government from land purchasers in the west. Not too a big deal in theory but it did allow the expansionist moves of the country at the time, showed him to understand the problem and by the end of his term the economy was on track again.
Foreign Policy
The Monroe Doctrine deserves the highest praise we can give any foreign policy. If you want to be cynical, it did form the bedrock of our own colonial intervention into South America and other lands and is the language we use even today when we talk about our own national interests. But at the time, it was very much a brilliant piece of diplomacy. Monroe worked well with Spain, unlike the two guys before him, and got Florida, and eventually set the stage for us getting Texas as well. And his work with Adams and England gave us the rest of our continental nation.
One of the lesser known pieces of his foreign policy as it relates to John Quincy Adams and the Monroe Doctrine was that we actually worked with England to negotiate with France. Coming off their endless war(s), there were diplomatic talks between the nations and England and France agreed that France would not help Spain with any claims in South America. This bolstered the Monroe Doctrine’s rhetorical power even if we didn’t really have a navy to back it up. But it did allow England the cover to allow us more free reign in the Atlantic, France stayed out of the continent, and Spain, having lost its Navy a few years ago to England had no choice but to work with us. Monroe and his cabinet did a great job during his administration in foreign policy.
Executive Skills/Congress
He had no true formal opposition. His own party fought him sometimes but not always. The country ran smoothly during his time. Important treaties were passed, lands were acquired and the nation stayed out of war. Foreign powers began to respect our nation and Congress worked with him well. Also, his cabinet is one of if not the best in our history. John Quincy Adams alone makes that true. They were natural opponents for years, but they understood the power and potential they had if they worked together and they did. And their combined work set the stage for America to be a nation to be recognized in foreign lands.
Monroe did fight with Congress over internal improvements though. His belief was that they were more state issues than national. It didn’t win him any friends in Washington, but it bolstered his popularity in the states.
Justice/Rights
Monroe continued the policies of Jefferson and Madison as it related to Indians, forceably removing them from lands if necessary and using the army to fight them as well. By the time Monroe and General Jackson began their work in Florida Congress basically stood for the premise that Indian policy was, for the most part, a war power and let him do it. Other forms of civil rights weren’t really discussed in great detail. The fight over Missouri and the eventual compromise there was beginning the seeds for civil war and slaves escaping southern states were becoming more and more of a problem. Later presidents had to deal with the horrors of that more than Monroe did.
Context
Monroe was the last founding father to be President. He followed 4 great men, a war on American soil, an upside down Europe and new republicanism taking over the western hemisphere. Within that context he worked masterfully with his cabinet and foreign powers. Indian removal policy was a train gaining steam and with the acquisition of more lands for the country it was only going to get worse. Like the men before him Monroe wanted to assimilate the Indians into American society, but he would fight them if he had to. For the snapshot of the 8 years he was in office he was pretty close to a perfect President. He spoke directly to the people, his use of politics was brilliant, he get the smartest minds into his cabinet, he worked with both sides of his party to get to the Missouri Compromise. The Era of Good Feelings was just that. And Monroe’s presidency is one of our best.
Conclusion
Monroe gets a 10 for persuasion, a 9 for crisis, 7 for the economy, 10 for foreign policy, 9 for congress, 5 for civil rights and 9 for context. 59 total. History should want just a little more out of Monroe especially as it relates to the Missouri Compromise. It was a decent agreement at the time but history doesn’t seem to teach us that many in power saw its poison enough to understand what it would mean. Or maybe they just didn’t really care. But by the end of Monroe’s administration, there were movements underway that would almost destroy this nation. The men that followed him didn’t do a great job either though.
Monroe’s administration was the last of our birth. The founders were done. They had started in the late 1750’s fomenting a revolution that would change this people, the land and eventually the world. They stood against the most powerful empire in the world and within 30 years had created a nation. When Monroe left office, our romantic beginnings were done. We had a country, an economy, land to settle, foreign recognition, seasoned diplomats that were respected in the courts of the world and a vision of hemispheric power that lasted over a century. The foundation was laid and Monroe put down the final brick, leaving the next generation to make the country work. Our first 5 president’s were great men, and Monroe did a masterful job of turning the lights out and leaving the work for the next group.
Public Acumen/Persuasion
James Monroe gets a solid 10 here without too much debate. Entering office after Madison and the War of 1812, he had no true opposition from the Federalist who were dying as a party. Monroe’s ability to lead and speak directly to the people finally killed that party once and for all. In fact Monroe and his party were so good at this point that with no serious opposition of any kind, his own party stopped meeting as a collective.
Monroe’s time in office is dubbed The Era of Good Feelings. This was due to many factors, but his ability here was one of them. He embarked on three countrywide tours where the common people met him spoke with him and almost universally came away liking and respecting him even more then they had before. He played the public face of the office about as well as you good and was cheered for it. His top score isn’t for his great presence in a room and oratory skills but because he simply knew how to talk to people and without any opposition did not become a dictator but was basically the very embodiment of a republican.
War & Crisis
Coming off the War of 1812 and the end to the Napoleonic wars, the world was a little bit of a mess. So was America. The building economy that Madison managed after the War led to a panic in 1819 as the housing market and banking system burst a bubble. Monroe’s leadership during this time though is generally regarding as rather exceptional and given his tours and his leadership abilities his personal rating never really took a massive hit for it and the country got out of the panic in a way that gives him good marks for crisis management.
Monroe still General Andrew Jackson in the south but he also had John Quincy Adams in the State Department and combined the three of them managed to finally get Florida from Spain in a rather great example of diplomacy by Adams and leadership by Monroe. It helped that Jackson never really answered to anyone but himself. The changes to colonialism in South America led Monroe to issue his great Monroe Doctrine. That policy was America’s bedrock foreign policy since. It came to light years later that the speech Monroe gave outlining the policy and much of the policy itself was the brainchild of Adams, and he specifically worked with ministers from England on the policy. Still, Monroe does deserve the credit for empowering Adams to do it, he supported it, and he backed it as President. Jefferson would have failed to do something like this, as probably John Adams Sr. would have as well.
Monroe’s quest for Florida did result in a Seminole War. He allowed Andrew Jackson to fire shots that did ultimately result in America gaining Florida from Spain. Congress investigated Jackson for alleged war crimes but it never went anywhere and in the end they backed Monroe and his general.
Finally, the treaty of 1818, not so much a crisis but certainly an act that war implications, granted America lands to the pacific ocean. The map we have now is very much a result of Monroe, and his great diplomat John Quincy Adams’ work to get that treaty. It was also during Monroe’s presidency that Missouri sought to gain statehood as a slave state. The crisis that developed from there led to the Missouri Compromise. A good bill at the time, it was one of the precursors to civil war just 40 years later.
Economy
Monroe did have to suffer a depression coming off of Madison’s ungreat leadership of the economy and the results of the War of 1812 but his popularity never took a hit for it. By the end of his term the economy was moving again, and with the acquisition of Florida and all of the middle and western lands that make up our country now Monroe put America on an economic path that gave us the natural resources to be a world power. Monroe took some criticism for not doing more to quickly end the Panic of 1819 but the manner in which the Second Bank of the United States operated did not give him the ability to come up with any great quick fixes. He did support and eventually got through Congress a bill that allowed for deferments of interest payments to the federal government from land purchasers in the west. Not too a big deal in theory but it did allow the expansionist moves of the country at the time, showed him to understand the problem and by the end of his term the economy was on track again.
Foreign Policy
The Monroe Doctrine deserves the highest praise we can give any foreign policy. If you want to be cynical, it did form the bedrock of our own colonial intervention into South America and other lands and is the language we use even today when we talk about our own national interests. But at the time, it was very much a brilliant piece of diplomacy. Monroe worked well with Spain, unlike the two guys before him, and got Florida, and eventually set the stage for us getting Texas as well. And his work with Adams and England gave us the rest of our continental nation.
One of the lesser known pieces of his foreign policy as it relates to John Quincy Adams and the Monroe Doctrine was that we actually worked with England to negotiate with France. Coming off their endless war(s), there were diplomatic talks between the nations and England and France agreed that France would not help Spain with any claims in South America. This bolstered the Monroe Doctrine’s rhetorical power even if we didn’t really have a navy to back it up. But it did allow England the cover to allow us more free reign in the Atlantic, France stayed out of the continent, and Spain, having lost its Navy a few years ago to England had no choice but to work with us. Monroe and his cabinet did a great job during his administration in foreign policy.
Executive Skills/Congress
He had no true formal opposition. His own party fought him sometimes but not always. The country ran smoothly during his time. Important treaties were passed, lands were acquired and the nation stayed out of war. Foreign powers began to respect our nation and Congress worked with him well. Also, his cabinet is one of if not the best in our history. John Quincy Adams alone makes that true. They were natural opponents for years, but they understood the power and potential they had if they worked together and they did. And their combined work set the stage for America to be a nation to be recognized in foreign lands.
Monroe did fight with Congress over internal improvements though. His belief was that they were more state issues than national. It didn’t win him any friends in Washington, but it bolstered his popularity in the states.
Justice/Rights
Monroe continued the policies of Jefferson and Madison as it related to Indians, forceably removing them from lands if necessary and using the army to fight them as well. By the time Monroe and General Jackson began their work in Florida Congress basically stood for the premise that Indian policy was, for the most part, a war power and let him do it. Other forms of civil rights weren’t really discussed in great detail. The fight over Missouri and the eventual compromise there was beginning the seeds for civil war and slaves escaping southern states were becoming more and more of a problem. Later presidents had to deal with the horrors of that more than Monroe did.
Context
Monroe was the last founding father to be President. He followed 4 great men, a war on American soil, an upside down Europe and new republicanism taking over the western hemisphere. Within that context he worked masterfully with his cabinet and foreign powers. Indian removal policy was a train gaining steam and with the acquisition of more lands for the country it was only going to get worse. Like the men before him Monroe wanted to assimilate the Indians into American society, but he would fight them if he had to. For the snapshot of the 8 years he was in office he was pretty close to a perfect President. He spoke directly to the people, his use of politics was brilliant, he get the smartest minds into his cabinet, he worked with both sides of his party to get to the Missouri Compromise. The Era of Good Feelings was just that. And Monroe’s presidency is one of our best.
Conclusion
Monroe gets a 10 for persuasion, a 9 for crisis, 7 for the economy, 10 for foreign policy, 9 for congress, 5 for civil rights and 9 for context. 59 total. History should want just a little more out of Monroe especially as it relates to the Missouri Compromise. It was a decent agreement at the time but history doesn’t seem to teach us that many in power saw its poison enough to understand what it would mean. Or maybe they just didn’t really care. But by the end of Monroe’s administration, there were movements underway that would almost destroy this nation. The men that followed him didn’t do a great job either though.
Monroe’s administration was the last of our birth. The founders were done. They had started in the late 1750’s fomenting a revolution that would change this people, the land and eventually the world. They stood against the most powerful empire in the world and within 30 years had created a nation. When Monroe left office, our romantic beginnings were done. We had a country, an economy, land to settle, foreign recognition, seasoned diplomats that were respected in the courts of the world and a vision of hemispheric power that lasted over a century. The foundation was laid and Monroe put down the final brick, leaving the next generation to make the country work. Our first 5 president’s were great men, and Monroe did a masterful job of turning the lights out and leaving the work for the next group.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
The first five Presidents of the United States are remarkable men. Founders all of them, we had one of our greatest Generals, our greatest President, the writer of the Constitution, the leader of the Continental Congress, our greatest foreign diplomat, two unquestionable legends whose names will stand for all human history, and even massively important wives whose writings and memory tell a story of America that we forget sometimes. When you look through the annals of history, you are hard pressed to find a nation or world power that when formed had as its first 5 leaders men of such great stature, leadership, skill, diplomacy, war acumen and legendary status. If England had kings this good back to back they might still be an empire. France as well. Russia's leaders devolved into tyrants. Germany's did as well. From the moment the first Continental Congress sat until Monroe left office in 1825 you are hard pressed to find a collection of leaders in any time in human history. Those 50 years might just be the most remarkable in human history.
At the very least they are the most remarkable in American history. But with them, the founding era comes to a close. The next generation of leaders, from John Quincy Adams to James Buchanan did a very different job, under very different circumstances in a very different world. The second 50 years of American history are quite different than the first.
The raw scores for the first five guys (with a slight correction for John Adams as I didn't include a 3 point subscore in his total raw) sits at:
George Washington - 64
James Monroe - 59
Thomas Jefferson - 50
John Adams - 49
James Madison - 39
It is my expectation that with the exception of Andrew Jackson, the next group of Presidents before Lincoln have a hard time cracking James Madison. We are in for dark times, weak leaders, rising civil unrest, and eventually civil war. Great times require great leaders. We had them to start. We didn't get them again until a really tall lanky and by all accounts ugly Kentucky bred lawyer changed the course of our nations history, and with it the world's.
At the very least they are the most remarkable in American history. But with them, the founding era comes to a close. The next generation of leaders, from John Quincy Adams to James Buchanan did a very different job, under very different circumstances in a very different world. The second 50 years of American history are quite different than the first.
The raw scores for the first five guys (with a slight correction for John Adams as I didn't include a 3 point subscore in his total raw) sits at:
George Washington - 64
James Monroe - 59
Thomas Jefferson - 50
John Adams - 49
James Madison - 39
It is my expectation that with the exception of Andrew Jackson, the next group of Presidents before Lincoln have a hard time cracking James Madison. We are in for dark times, weak leaders, rising civil unrest, and eventually civil war. Great times require great leaders. We had them to start. We didn't get them again until a really tall lanky and by all accounts ugly Kentucky bred lawyer changed the course of our nations history, and with it the world's.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK, as Yankee continues his excellent analysis, my countdown begins:
100. Billie Jean King
A champion is afraid of losing. Everyone else is afraid of winning.
With all apologies to Babe Zaharias, Billie Jean King was the first American female sports superstar. And because she came along during a time when the women's liberation movement was exploding, her prominence places her in this list- barely. If she had merely been a champion tennis player she wouldn't be here. But her highly publicized "Battle of the Sexes" against Bobby Riggs had a huge impact on American culture and society.
A note about that game- I'm no tennis expert by any means, but from what I've read Riggs was considered an old-fashioned "baseline" player, not someone who slammed the ball hard like modern players, so he was tailor made for a great woman to take him on and beat him. My understanding is that a Jim McEnroe, even at his advanced age, would not lose to any woman because they simply can't handle his serve (though I wonder about Serena Williams- perhaps a tennis fan can enlighten us more about this.)
In any event, the match made King into something more than the best woman player- it made her an icon. (The early 70s were a time for sports icons: Joe Namath was among the names I considered for this list, not because of his skills, but because he changed the image forever of the American sports star. But there was no room for him.) Later on, King came out as a lesbian and was symbolic of a whole new challenge to American society, but that is not why she is on this list.
Next up: A man who believed that violence and murder was the best means to achieve justice...
100. Billie Jean King
A champion is afraid of losing. Everyone else is afraid of winning.
With all apologies to Babe Zaharias, Billie Jean King was the first American female sports superstar. And because she came along during a time when the women's liberation movement was exploding, her prominence places her in this list- barely. If she had merely been a champion tennis player she wouldn't be here. But her highly publicized "Battle of the Sexes" against Bobby Riggs had a huge impact on American culture and society.
A note about that game- I'm no tennis expert by any means, but from what I've read Riggs was considered an old-fashioned "baseline" player, not someone who slammed the ball hard like modern players, so he was tailor made for a great woman to take him on and beat him. My understanding is that a Jim McEnroe, even at his advanced age, would not lose to any woman because they simply can't handle his serve (though I wonder about Serena Williams- perhaps a tennis fan can enlighten us more about this.)
In any event, the match made King into something more than the best woman player- it made her an icon. (The early 70s were a time for sports icons: Joe Namath was among the names I considered for this list, not because of his skills, but because he changed the image forever of the American sports star. But there was no room for him.) Later on, King came out as a lesbian and was symbolic of a whole new challenge to American society, but that is not why she is on this list.
Next up: A man who believed that violence and murder was the best means to achieve justice...
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm not sure I get your connection.
As far as being a proponent of status quo- I am, so long as status quo is GOOD. When it's bad, things need to change.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
John Quincy Adams (1825-1829)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
It pains me to say this, and it should pain most Americans who study our Presidents at all, but John Quinc Adams was doomed to fail as President from the second he “won.” Like his father, he was one of our greatest diplomats and his leadership of the State Department and work with President Monroe set our country up for decades of foreign policy success. But as President, he was doomed to follow in his father’s footsteps.
With the electors a mess following the election, John Quincy and Andrew Jackson were both the President in waiting. Henry Clay of course had his fingers in it as he always did for decades. And when Clay backed Adams, Jackson, his party, and his supporters claimed a corrupt bargain was made to ignore the will of the people. Adams’ reputation was hit hard, his ability to lead the nation was clipped at the knees before it began, and he didn’t have the ability to fix it. Jackson spent the next 4 years running for President for the eventual rematch and ultimate beat Adams.
Adams’ refused to play politics while President, clinging to the dignity his father had, and tried to stand above what he saw as petty arguments that weren’t befit a President. It cost him any ability to lead the nation with any force, and it cost him the Presidency. As a diplomat he would get a 10 here and there could be literally no argument from any corner. As a President he barely gets a 3.
War & Crisis
The main crisis Adams faced as President was his own presidency. Jackson’s democrats, being led on the ground by eventual President Martin Van Buren spent years hammering Adams at every turn. By trying to stand above it and not hit it head on, Adams thought he was demonstrating strength. Maybe he was. But ignoring the attacks only proved to be his own downfall.
There was almost no war crisis at all during his time in office. His mastery of the State Department during Monroe’s administration basically solved all those problems. There was a growing republican movement in Greece that some Americans, including Clay wanted to assist with, by Adams stuck to his belief in the Monroe Doctrine and refused to get entangled in the wars in Europe.
His domestic policy resulted in continuous awful attacks against his Tariff of Abominations and with the daily attacks by Jackson and his supporters, Adams was seen as a monarch like his father trying to attack the common people. That he thought himself better than that common people only cemented that notion.
Economy
Adams’ primary economic policy was a grand plan of massive internal improvements throughout the nation to enable it to harness its own resources. In order to do it he required massive tax increases, referenced above. His party was mixed with support and Jackson fought him every single day. The tariffs had more force in the south where it hurt imports and exports that were the basis of the southern economy. With it, Adams lost whatever small amount of support in the south he could claim.
Much of his internal plans weren’t approved by Congress but some were. Canals and waterways were improved for better commerce and overall his economy was solid if unspectacular. To Jacksonians it was awful. To his supporters it was good and necessary. But he was loosing supporters by the droves. He did reduce the national debt to very small levels that Jackson eventually paid off in full.
Foreign Policy
It’s hard to give him a score here. There really weren’t any foreign policy issues. The small ones that rose up he handled masterfully getting treaties with several nations for trade. But since he fixed all the war related problems in the previous administration, he only had to focus internally, and as we have seen he didn’t do a great job there.
Executive Skills/Congress
Adams hated his job. He hated politics. He was much better suited to be a diplomat then an executive officer. Congress fought him and the bargain that got him the office didn’t allow him grand support in Congress. And then he lost Congress to the JAcksonians midway through his term. If you want to give him credits for staying the course and doing what he thought was right you can. But as a leader, he wasn’t very good. And Henry Clay did most of the grunt work anyway because Adams was “above it.” His ceiling here is a 5.
Justice/Rights
Issues with slavery were getting worse. The south began to hate him for his taxes and tariffs. He didn’t do himself any favors here. However, with Indian policy he acted opposite of the previous presidents and was very good to the Indian populations and went head to head with the Governor of Georgia when he tired to move more Cherokees by force. But American expansion and settlers wanted more and more land, the Indians were in the way, and while Adams tried to protect the native population he had little support in any corner to do it.
Context
In many ways Adams was his own worst enemy. He was too much like his father, and even more arrogant. He was a great man and great diplomat but a failure as a president. His hands were tied by his own election and Jackson’s new version of politics was more than he could handle. He was unable to see the changes in the nation that were happening, the new way to handle politics and ultimately failed as a result of it. He would have been better suited never allowing his name into the fray and staying a diplomat. That was his true calling and he was exceptional at it.
Conclusion
Such a bad score for such a great man. The office can eat you alive and spit you out. On persuasion he gets a 2, on crisis he gets a 3, economy a 5, foreign policy a 7, Congress a 2, civil rights a 4 and context a 4. 27 total points. John Quincy Adams was a great man. He died fighting in Congress for what he believed to be right. And he always thought he was right. That Adams bloodline was remarkable but in the end, tragic in a Shakespearean kind of way. Greatness was there and it was seen over and over and over. But that greatness was never capped off with a final win. Instead, like his father, it was capped with history making their times in office more footnote then they should be.
Public Acumen/Persuasion
It pains me to say this, and it should pain most Americans who study our Presidents at all, but John Quinc Adams was doomed to fail as President from the second he “won.” Like his father, he was one of our greatest diplomats and his leadership of the State Department and work with President Monroe set our country up for decades of foreign policy success. But as President, he was doomed to follow in his father’s footsteps.
With the electors a mess following the election, John Quincy and Andrew Jackson were both the President in waiting. Henry Clay of course had his fingers in it as he always did for decades. And when Clay backed Adams, Jackson, his party, and his supporters claimed a corrupt bargain was made to ignore the will of the people. Adams’ reputation was hit hard, his ability to lead the nation was clipped at the knees before it began, and he didn’t have the ability to fix it. Jackson spent the next 4 years running for President for the eventual rematch and ultimate beat Adams.
Adams’ refused to play politics while President, clinging to the dignity his father had, and tried to stand above what he saw as petty arguments that weren’t befit a President. It cost him any ability to lead the nation with any force, and it cost him the Presidency. As a diplomat he would get a 10 here and there could be literally no argument from any corner. As a President he barely gets a 3.
War & Crisis
The main crisis Adams faced as President was his own presidency. Jackson’s democrats, being led on the ground by eventual President Martin Van Buren spent years hammering Adams at every turn. By trying to stand above it and not hit it head on, Adams thought he was demonstrating strength. Maybe he was. But ignoring the attacks only proved to be his own downfall.
There was almost no war crisis at all during his time in office. His mastery of the State Department during Monroe’s administration basically solved all those problems. There was a growing republican movement in Greece that some Americans, including Clay wanted to assist with, by Adams stuck to his belief in the Monroe Doctrine and refused to get entangled in the wars in Europe.
His domestic policy resulted in continuous awful attacks against his Tariff of Abominations and with the daily attacks by Jackson and his supporters, Adams was seen as a monarch like his father trying to attack the common people. That he thought himself better than that common people only cemented that notion.
Economy
Adams’ primary economic policy was a grand plan of massive internal improvements throughout the nation to enable it to harness its own resources. In order to do it he required massive tax increases, referenced above. His party was mixed with support and Jackson fought him every single day. The tariffs had more force in the south where it hurt imports and exports that were the basis of the southern economy. With it, Adams lost whatever small amount of support in the south he could claim.
Much of his internal plans weren’t approved by Congress but some were. Canals and waterways were improved for better commerce and overall his economy was solid if unspectacular. To Jacksonians it was awful. To his supporters it was good and necessary. But he was loosing supporters by the droves. He did reduce the national debt to very small levels that Jackson eventually paid off in full.
Foreign Policy
It’s hard to give him a score here. There really weren’t any foreign policy issues. The small ones that rose up he handled masterfully getting treaties with several nations for trade. But since he fixed all the war related problems in the previous administration, he only had to focus internally, and as we have seen he didn’t do a great job there.
Executive Skills/Congress
Adams hated his job. He hated politics. He was much better suited to be a diplomat then an executive officer. Congress fought him and the bargain that got him the office didn’t allow him grand support in Congress. And then he lost Congress to the JAcksonians midway through his term. If you want to give him credits for staying the course and doing what he thought was right you can. But as a leader, he wasn’t very good. And Henry Clay did most of the grunt work anyway because Adams was “above it.” His ceiling here is a 5.
Justice/Rights
Issues with slavery were getting worse. The south began to hate him for his taxes and tariffs. He didn’t do himself any favors here. However, with Indian policy he acted opposite of the previous presidents and was very good to the Indian populations and went head to head with the Governor of Georgia when he tired to move more Cherokees by force. But American expansion and settlers wanted more and more land, the Indians were in the way, and while Adams tried to protect the native population he had little support in any corner to do it.
Context
In many ways Adams was his own worst enemy. He was too much like his father, and even more arrogant. He was a great man and great diplomat but a failure as a president. His hands were tied by his own election and Jackson’s new version of politics was more than he could handle. He was unable to see the changes in the nation that were happening, the new way to handle politics and ultimately failed as a result of it. He would have been better suited never allowing his name into the fray and staying a diplomat. That was his true calling and he was exceptional at it.
Conclusion
Such a bad score for such a great man. The office can eat you alive and spit you out. On persuasion he gets a 2, on crisis he gets a 3, economy a 5, foreign policy a 7, Congress a 2, civil rights a 4 and context a 4. 27 total points. John Quincy Adams was a great man. He died fighting in Congress for what he believed to be right. And he always thought he was right. That Adams bloodline was remarkable but in the end, tragic in a Shakespearean kind of way. Greatness was there and it was seen over and over and over. But that greatness was never capped off with a final win. Instead, like his father, it was capped with history making their times in office more footnote then they should be.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Andrew Jackson (1829-1837)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
Jackson gets a 10. His brand of politics after his defeat to Adams changed American politics. He allowed the common people into the White House. His leadership of the party he basically created controlled politics for decades. There is a ton to get to with Jackson so there is no need to bolster this part anymore. He gets a 10. Anything less isn’t in keeping with how he changed the office.
War & Crisis
When Jackson entered office there was little foreign policy emergencies because of John Quincy Adams’ superior diplomatic skills in the previous decade. Almost the entirety of his focus was domestic save for two issues, and on the domestic front he dealt with crisis and after crisis.
In 1829 Mexico abolished slavery which heightened issues on the Texas America Mexico border. Jackson wanted Texas and his actions there discussed below, led to war. In 1830, his cabinet destroyed itself over a crisis with the wives of the cabinet members and the allegation that one of them was a “loose woman.” IT resulted in half of his cabinet resigning, including Martin Van Buren. His second cabinet was better in the end, but he began seeking advice from his “kitchen cabinet” who were close advisors with no formal title. Jackson was unable to get his appointees to work together and control their wives and the infighting damaged his reputation.
Jackson came into office claiming that he was going to reform the national government and get rid of party powerbrokers from national offices. HE claimed that appointees would be chosen by merit. But that merit included political agreements that he made. HE appointment many of his own people directly against what he said he would do and at least one stole a ton of money from the government. Jackson failed to live up to his ideal and became the very thing he attacked Adams for in the previous 3 years. He ended up putting place only political cronies in office.
Jacksons’ policies on Indians created problems too. Georgia basically declared that its laws were the law over everyone in the state, Indians included thereby nullifying previous treaties. Jackson was at odds with the governor, but on the heals of that he also had to deal with South Carolina and a nullification crisis in that state. His own Vice President supported South Carolina over the power of the national government. Jackson threatened to send troops to South Carolina to enforce the law. He asked Congress for the power to do it. But before they had to vote on it Henry Clay managed a deal to reduce the tariffs that was acceptable to South Carolina and the crisis was adverted. But Jackson didn’t lead that charge. It was his political opponents that did.
Jackson fought the Second Bank of the United States and vetoed its renewal sending shockwaves throughout the economy. Jackson pulled all federal deposits out of the bank and got a bill through Congress that required gold or silver only to pay the debts and not bank notes. This resulted in the immediate collapse of the economy and the Depression/Panic of 1837. Jackson managed at the time to skate from the damage it caused because he was leaving office and his Vice President in 1837, Martin Van Buren, was elected President and then took much of the blame for the problem, but Jackson caused it.
Slavery issues were getting worse and worse during his time. He had southern sympathies and hated abolitionists but tried to keep the country together. When abolitionists got a bill before the House to abolish slavery in Washington DC the anger that it caused never went away. And the growing problems with Indian policy led to some of the most awful civil rights violations we’ve seen as a nation.
Jackson doesn’t get a great mark for crisis management mainly because in many ways he caused the crisis’. His cabinet was awful, his economic policy was bad, and his high and mighty talk about a new government failed quickly and the political patronage he attacked became the standard of his administration. His perfect persuasion score masked a lot of these problems for most people because his party power was so good. But looking back on his track record and how it all played out, he wasn’t perfect here by any stretch.
And then we have Mexico and France. Jackson wanted Texas and screwed the issue up badly. When Sam Houston started the rebellion in Texas and declared Texas independence from Mexico, Jacksons’ poor showing previously forced him to refuse to recognize the new republic. At the same time, he almost started a war with France. France was due to make payments to US for reparations from the previous Napoleonic wars but the French congress didn’t appropriate the funds. Jackson threatened them and demanded that Congress raise an army. Ministers were recalled and war seemed actually possible out of nowhere. Jackson’s lake of diplomatic training was a weakness and his background as a general took over his ability here and if not for England actually intervening and persuading France to work with him, he could have started a war with France.
But back to Texas. His backroom actions leading up to Sam Houston created such a seed of distrust in Mexico that his failing there was what forced the Mexican American war. Another crisis that he created.
Economy
He caused a depression and played games with the national economy. Failing to deal with the Second Bank of United States appropriately was a massive mistake. Martin Van Buren failed in his presidency because of it. The rather strong economy that James Monroe built and John Adams kept should have been easy for Jackson to maintain. He paid off the national debt and it looked good. But then he attacked the Bank and when he did that the economy crashed. He left office in the midst of a depression that lasted far too long.
Foreign Policy
His actions with France were terrible and his actions with Mexico started a war a decade later. There wasn’t much else to deal with in foreign affairs. He did get more and more trade agreements with foreign nations growing what John Quincy Adams had built, but Mexico Texas and France were his biggest issues, and they were mainly blunders.
Executive Skills/Congress
He gets a high score here. He created a new era in party politics and Congress went with him. His first cabinet was awful but his second was solid. His love by the common people supported him through most things and he was always seen as a champion of the people, so with that he got a lot done. The results of what he got done go all over the map, but he did get his “plan” pretty much the way he wanted except for political appointments. Though later in his second term he basically admitted that any President should be able to appoint whoever he wants as to the victor goes the spoils.
Justice/Rights
Slavery issues got worse and worse and worse. He fought abolitionsist and was a southern sympathizer. His forced Indian removal policy was necessary for the manisfestdestiny we’ve all learned about but it was bloody cold and ruthless. The fracture in American society between the north and the south was made worse by Jackson. It would be unfair to lay the Civil War at his feat, but he certainly didn’t help. But he was married to the Union and hated and attacked all thoughts of secession and Civil War.
Context
For his times Jackson was a great President, save his handling of the economy. Tim hit him for his Indian policy and deserves a hit, but for the times, he did what previous presidents did (with his help as a general) he was just much more forceful and bloody about it. HE renewed the political system, created a national political party that stood for decades and his party still exists today. His democrats create for him a legacy that deserves top honors.
Conclusion
You could write pages upon pages about Jackson. He was a general and handled most things like a general. He hated money men in the north, loved the southern way of life and loved the country he fought for. His enemies were enemies almost until death. He wasn’t big on forgiveness or nuanced policy and diplomacy. He was very much a bull in a china shop, something a rising military commander named Ulysses S Grant would later embody as well in his war. On persuasion he gets a 10, on crisis he gets a 5, on the economy he gets a 3, foreign affairs 4, Congress 9, civil rights 3 and context a 10. Jackson clocks in at a raw number of 44. I expected it to be higher when I started and the raw numbers aren’t set in stone. His creation of a political dynasty will bump him up a little most likely but the hits he gets here are supported by history. He wasn’t a bad President, nor was he average. He is considered by some one of the greats and he most likely is – if you only focus on one thing. If you look at the whole picture, he can’t be in Washington’s class (though few are).
Public Acumen/Persuasion
Jackson gets a 10. His brand of politics after his defeat to Adams changed American politics. He allowed the common people into the White House. His leadership of the party he basically created controlled politics for decades. There is a ton to get to with Jackson so there is no need to bolster this part anymore. He gets a 10. Anything less isn’t in keeping with how he changed the office.
War & Crisis
When Jackson entered office there was little foreign policy emergencies because of John Quincy Adams’ superior diplomatic skills in the previous decade. Almost the entirety of his focus was domestic save for two issues, and on the domestic front he dealt with crisis and after crisis.
In 1829 Mexico abolished slavery which heightened issues on the Texas America Mexico border. Jackson wanted Texas and his actions there discussed below, led to war. In 1830, his cabinet destroyed itself over a crisis with the wives of the cabinet members and the allegation that one of them was a “loose woman.” IT resulted in half of his cabinet resigning, including Martin Van Buren. His second cabinet was better in the end, but he began seeking advice from his “kitchen cabinet” who were close advisors with no formal title. Jackson was unable to get his appointees to work together and control their wives and the infighting damaged his reputation.
Jackson came into office claiming that he was going to reform the national government and get rid of party powerbrokers from national offices. HE claimed that appointees would be chosen by merit. But that merit included political agreements that he made. HE appointment many of his own people directly against what he said he would do and at least one stole a ton of money from the government. Jackson failed to live up to his ideal and became the very thing he attacked Adams for in the previous 3 years. He ended up putting place only political cronies in office.
Jacksons’ policies on Indians created problems too. Georgia basically declared that its laws were the law over everyone in the state, Indians included thereby nullifying previous treaties. Jackson was at odds with the governor, but on the heals of that he also had to deal with South Carolina and a nullification crisis in that state. His own Vice President supported South Carolina over the power of the national government. Jackson threatened to send troops to South Carolina to enforce the law. He asked Congress for the power to do it. But before they had to vote on it Henry Clay managed a deal to reduce the tariffs that was acceptable to South Carolina and the crisis was adverted. But Jackson didn’t lead that charge. It was his political opponents that did.
Jackson fought the Second Bank of the United States and vetoed its renewal sending shockwaves throughout the economy. Jackson pulled all federal deposits out of the bank and got a bill through Congress that required gold or silver only to pay the debts and not bank notes. This resulted in the immediate collapse of the economy and the Depression/Panic of 1837. Jackson managed at the time to skate from the damage it caused because he was leaving office and his Vice President in 1837, Martin Van Buren, was elected President and then took much of the blame for the problem, but Jackson caused it.
Slavery issues were getting worse and worse during his time. He had southern sympathies and hated abolitionists but tried to keep the country together. When abolitionists got a bill before the House to abolish slavery in Washington DC the anger that it caused never went away. And the growing problems with Indian policy led to some of the most awful civil rights violations we’ve seen as a nation.
Jackson doesn’t get a great mark for crisis management mainly because in many ways he caused the crisis’. His cabinet was awful, his economic policy was bad, and his high and mighty talk about a new government failed quickly and the political patronage he attacked became the standard of his administration. His perfect persuasion score masked a lot of these problems for most people because his party power was so good. But looking back on his track record and how it all played out, he wasn’t perfect here by any stretch.
And then we have Mexico and France. Jackson wanted Texas and screwed the issue up badly. When Sam Houston started the rebellion in Texas and declared Texas independence from Mexico, Jacksons’ poor showing previously forced him to refuse to recognize the new republic. At the same time, he almost started a war with France. France was due to make payments to US for reparations from the previous Napoleonic wars but the French congress didn’t appropriate the funds. Jackson threatened them and demanded that Congress raise an army. Ministers were recalled and war seemed actually possible out of nowhere. Jackson’s lake of diplomatic training was a weakness and his background as a general took over his ability here and if not for England actually intervening and persuading France to work with him, he could have started a war with France.
But back to Texas. His backroom actions leading up to Sam Houston created such a seed of distrust in Mexico that his failing there was what forced the Mexican American war. Another crisis that he created.
Economy
He caused a depression and played games with the national economy. Failing to deal with the Second Bank of United States appropriately was a massive mistake. Martin Van Buren failed in his presidency because of it. The rather strong economy that James Monroe built and John Adams kept should have been easy for Jackson to maintain. He paid off the national debt and it looked good. But then he attacked the Bank and when he did that the economy crashed. He left office in the midst of a depression that lasted far too long.
Foreign Policy
His actions with France were terrible and his actions with Mexico started a war a decade later. There wasn’t much else to deal with in foreign affairs. He did get more and more trade agreements with foreign nations growing what John Quincy Adams had built, but Mexico Texas and France were his biggest issues, and they were mainly blunders.
Executive Skills/Congress
He gets a high score here. He created a new era in party politics and Congress went with him. His first cabinet was awful but his second was solid. His love by the common people supported him through most things and he was always seen as a champion of the people, so with that he got a lot done. The results of what he got done go all over the map, but he did get his “plan” pretty much the way he wanted except for political appointments. Though later in his second term he basically admitted that any President should be able to appoint whoever he wants as to the victor goes the spoils.
Justice/Rights
Slavery issues got worse and worse and worse. He fought abolitionsist and was a southern sympathizer. His forced Indian removal policy was necessary for the manisfestdestiny we’ve all learned about but it was bloody cold and ruthless. The fracture in American society between the north and the south was made worse by Jackson. It would be unfair to lay the Civil War at his feat, but he certainly didn’t help. But he was married to the Union and hated and attacked all thoughts of secession and Civil War.
Context
For his times Jackson was a great President, save his handling of the economy. Tim hit him for his Indian policy and deserves a hit, but for the times, he did what previous presidents did (with his help as a general) he was just much more forceful and bloody about it. HE renewed the political system, created a national political party that stood for decades and his party still exists today. His democrats create for him a legacy that deserves top honors.
Conclusion
You could write pages upon pages about Jackson. He was a general and handled most things like a general. He hated money men in the north, loved the southern way of life and loved the country he fought for. His enemies were enemies almost until death. He wasn’t big on forgiveness or nuanced policy and diplomacy. He was very much a bull in a china shop, something a rising military commander named Ulysses S Grant would later embody as well in his war. On persuasion he gets a 10, on crisis he gets a 5, on the economy he gets a 3, foreign affairs 4, Congress 9, civil rights 3 and context a 10. Jackson clocks in at a raw number of 44. I expected it to be higher when I started and the raw numbers aren’t set in stone. His creation of a political dynasty will bump him up a little most likely but the hits he gets here are supported by history. He wasn’t a bad President, nor was he average. He is considered by some one of the greats and he most likely is – if you only focus on one thing. If you look at the whole picture, he can’t be in Washington’s class (though few are).
John Bender
Footballguy
Tim - can I count down the best 20 fruits in here?
TIA
TIA
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
John Bender
Footballguy
20. Lime -
One of the more versatile fruits on the list that one doesn't necessarily eat straight up (only weird people like those who think James Polk was a good President eat these straight up).
They can be used as garnish for a "cerveza" such as Corona or Land Shark. They are great to mix with guacamole as they help prevent the oxidation of the avocado (I'll get to avocado later on this list) so that it stores for longer in your refrigerator.
Just yesterday I had some fresh squeezed limeade at the local BBQ joint. It was good.
Limes are an excellent source of Vitamin C and the leaves of the Kaffir Lime are used in many Indian and Thai dishes (such as certain curries). Limes do have less Vitamin C than lemons but lemons are stupid anyway.
Lime was thought to help prevent scurvy which was some rubbish disease sailors used to catch through transmission of fluids from pirate wenches in the 19th century.
Key Lime pie also rules.
China grows the most limes in the world.
The most famous lime was grown in Florida and when fully ripe resembled, actor, Orson Welles. It is still on display today at the Citrus Museum of History in Winter Springs, Florida.
Coming in at number 20, up 2 spots from my list I did in 3rd grade of the Best Fruits, the incredible: Lime
My tribute to limes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIFo6heflSI
One of the more versatile fruits on the list that one doesn't necessarily eat straight up (only weird people like those who think James Polk was a good President eat these straight up).
They can be used as garnish for a "cerveza" such as Corona or Land Shark. They are great to mix with guacamole as they help prevent the oxidation of the avocado (I'll get to avocado later on this list) so that it stores for longer in your refrigerator.
Just yesterday I had some fresh squeezed limeade at the local BBQ joint. It was good.
Limes are an excellent source of Vitamin C and the leaves of the Kaffir Lime are used in many Indian and Thai dishes (such as certain curries). Limes do have less Vitamin C than lemons but lemons are stupid anyway.
Lime was thought to help prevent scurvy which was some rubbish disease sailors used to catch through transmission of fluids from pirate wenches in the 19th century.
Key Lime pie also rules.
China grows the most limes in the world.
The most famous lime was grown in Florida and when fully ripe resembled, actor, Orson Welles. It is still on display today at the Citrus Museum of History in Winter Springs, Florida.
Coming in at number 20, up 2 spots from my list I did in 3rd grade of the Best Fruits, the incredible: Lime
My tribute to limes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIFo6heflSI
Last edited by a moderator:
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Chadstroma
Footballguy
If timschochet is not in the top ten of Americans- I am going to protest.
G
General Tso
Guest
Holy #### Bender that was perfect.
timschochet
Footballguy
I welcome all countdowns.
rockaction
Footballguy
Jesus, Bender.
timschochet
Footballguy
Lime is fine at #20 so long as lemon makes top 5. Otherwise lime is as overrated as Andrew Jackson.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ha, yeah, here we go.
Damnit citrus is already too low, I'm pzzd.
Damnit citrus is already too low, I'm pzzd.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Not knowing where you are going with this, it is too soon to comment in any great detail. I find her to be overrated in every way possible and that Battle of Sexes match to be ridiculous. But I also find all talk about comapring female athletes to male ridiculous anyway, so I'm not the intended audience there to be sure. (and yes, Ronda Rousey could still kick my *** 8 days a week).
Riggs was in his 50's and retired for over two decades. The whole thing was a joke. And it was such a joke that the matches that followed had to actually change the rules to make it more fair for the girls. I don't know why Billy Jean King needs to be given the title of one of the 100 Greatest Americans simply because he held out for more money to play in a game that didn't count for anything against a 55 year old man with a big mouth.
Other than that, though... good choice.
John Bender
Footballguy
Not putting much into these.
I'm more aiming for finding 20 Peabo Bryson songs to make montages with for the countdown.
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
John Bender
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
John Bender
Footballguy
19. Cantaloupe
More like - CAN-aloupe. Am I right?
The GOOD:
RULES
The star of any fruit salad
Goes great with cottage cheese and cottage cheese usually SUCKS. #### you Cottage Cheese!
Easy to cut
If warmed in the microwave for 11 seconds, serves as a great replacement for a ###### (female anatomy begins with a V) (make sure to de-seed first!)
FUN FACT: One of my grading matrices is how easy it is to have sex with the fruit. Cantaloupe ranked 1st in this category.
Also makes good fake boobs if you're going out as a cross dresser for Halloween (or just a random Tuesday Drag Night at your local gay-friendly drinking establishment)
The BAD:
Lacks versatility.
Willie Neslon's blender is unable to process the skin so it can be absorbed whole into a smoothie.
They get soft very quickly after being cut
Skin is more coarse than honeydews in case you want to draw faces (or penises) on the melons
Penis is ok but ###### is not on the message board here, huh?
My tribute to Cantaloupe (Biddy Biddy Bop):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0HK2whhzs4
More like - CAN-aloupe. Am I right?
The GOOD:
RULES
The star of any fruit salad
Goes great with cottage cheese and cottage cheese usually SUCKS. #### you Cottage Cheese!
Easy to cut
If warmed in the microwave for 11 seconds, serves as a great replacement for a ###### (female anatomy begins with a V) (make sure to de-seed first!)
FUN FACT: One of my grading matrices is how easy it is to have sex with the fruit. Cantaloupe ranked 1st in this category.
Also makes good fake boobs if you're going out as a cross dresser for Halloween (or just a random Tuesday Drag Night at your local gay-friendly drinking establishment)
The BAD:
Lacks versatility.
Willie Neslon's blender is unable to process the skin so it can be absorbed whole into a smoothie.
They get soft very quickly after being cut
Skin is more coarse than honeydews in case you want to draw faces (or penises) on the melons
Penis is ok but ###### is not on the message board here, huh?
My tribute to Cantaloupe (Biddy Biddy Bop):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0HK2whhzs4
Last edited by a moderator:
Peyton Marino
Footballguy
mother####ing SUBSCRIBE
Peyton Marino
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Martin Van Buren (1837-1841)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
Van Buren was a good soldier and key confidant of Andrew Jackson. He had personal power of his own though that would give him a top score here. He ran for the office as nothing more than a continuation of Jackson – not as his own man. When you start from that weakness it’s hard to come out of it. Still he tried. He most important policy speech concerned an independent treasury – something that was a great idea – but he couldn’t sell it. He wasn’t able to get the economy off the ground from the 1837 depression, and the sectional issues revolving around slavery were things he couldn’t calm too much either. He fractured his own party and in doing it the Whigs actually beat him in the next election. At best he was a middle of the road guy here, but in reality he is lower. The public support of him was a left over from Jackson and his failure policy wise to fix the economy eroded support for him to the point that he lost his own state in his re-election campaign
War & Crisis
The largest crisis he faced was the depression. Jackson caused it. But Van Buren did nothing to stave it off or fix it. He refused to acknowledge Jackson’s role in the economy at all and blamed the depression on northern money interests. To his everlasting credit though, his ultimate attempt to fix it was an independent treasury system. It was a brilliant idea and he deserves credit for it. But he couldn’t sell it while he was president. And so the economy languished during his entire administration.
Texas was a mess at the same time thanks in no small part to Jackson’s problems there. In a stunning reversal, Van Buren moved away from the war like actions that Jackson advocated to take Texas and tried to come up with a peaceful way to get the territory. He announced publically that he did not support taking Texas which calmed sectional fears and growing tensions of another slave state joining the union.
He doubled down on Jacksons Indian policies and was more ruthless and bloody about it to the point that his own party started fighting him on it. In 1838 he oversaw the ultimate death of over 25% of the Cherokee nation in these removals.
He does get a lot of credit for not going to war with England. Rising tensions on the Canadian border and movements in Canada to break free from England led to military issues on the American border. Instead of sending invasion and attacking forces, Van Buren met personally with England’s ambassador and they worked out a peaceful way to deal with border disputes along the Canadian border while at the same time Van Buren declared American neutrality in the dispute between England and Canada. It was a solid diplomatic move. However, the loss of land that Americans suffered along the border hurt his national support.
The mormons of Missouri sought his help when the Governor of Missouri enacted an extermination order for them to be removed from Missouri. Van Buren refused to help because he didn’t want to lose Missouri’s support in the coming election.
Economy
His treasury idea was good but he couldn’t sell it and the entire time he was in office the economy suffered. It was actually worse when he left office from when he started as the full breadth of the depression didn’t start until three months after he took office.
Foreign Policy
The Canadian border issue was the only real one he faced here and he handled it well. He didn’t annex Texas thereby keeping a strained but not lasting peace with Mexico. He supported Spain the Amistad event in order to keep the peace with that country.
Executive Skills/Congress
He was average at best. Congress fought him on the treasury plan, and eventually started fighting with him over the Indian removal plans. He didn’t do anything forceful for the economy and seemed to focus more on political ramifications than dealing with issues in front of him. He still controlled his party even with the growing rifts but he simply didn’t get anything done to deal with the problems he faced.
Justice/Rights
His Indian policy was worse than Jackson’s. As it relates to slavery he focused more on not upsetting the south then he did any true measure of rights. And on the Amistad issue he sided with Spain. His record here isn’t remarkable at all.
Context
Van Buren won because Jackson wanted him to for the most part. Once he sat in the chair, the events of the moment were too big for him. He was a soldier, not a political leader. Like many a President that followed him the events that were happening while he was in office were bigger than he could handle. Still, when it comes to the economy it wasn’t all his fault and the nature of the office at that time didn’t lend itself to intervention the way we are accustomed to now. His Indian policy was bloody but a continuation of past presidents. He handled foreign policy well given that internal problems in the country were the main focus of the time. He shouldn’t be considered evil or truly awful, but he wasn’t good at the job either.
Conclusion
On persuasion, he gets a 3, on crisis he gets a 3, on economy he gets a 4, foreign policy 7, Congress 5, civil rights 2 and context 5. 29 total points. Van Buren’s inability to lead the nation during his time in office allowed the rise of the first opposition to the Democratic Party in the Whigs. And by the end of his first term, the Whigs were actually able to capture the highest office in the land. In the end, he is usually fairly low on these lists and he should be, but his foreign policy doesn’t get enough credit. That is going to help him here.
Public Acumen/Persuasion
Van Buren was a good soldier and key confidant of Andrew Jackson. He had personal power of his own though that would give him a top score here. He ran for the office as nothing more than a continuation of Jackson – not as his own man. When you start from that weakness it’s hard to come out of it. Still he tried. He most important policy speech concerned an independent treasury – something that was a great idea – but he couldn’t sell it. He wasn’t able to get the economy off the ground from the 1837 depression, and the sectional issues revolving around slavery were things he couldn’t calm too much either. He fractured his own party and in doing it the Whigs actually beat him in the next election. At best he was a middle of the road guy here, but in reality he is lower. The public support of him was a left over from Jackson and his failure policy wise to fix the economy eroded support for him to the point that he lost his own state in his re-election campaign
War & Crisis
The largest crisis he faced was the depression. Jackson caused it. But Van Buren did nothing to stave it off or fix it. He refused to acknowledge Jackson’s role in the economy at all and blamed the depression on northern money interests. To his everlasting credit though, his ultimate attempt to fix it was an independent treasury system. It was a brilliant idea and he deserves credit for it. But he couldn’t sell it while he was president. And so the economy languished during his entire administration.
Texas was a mess at the same time thanks in no small part to Jackson’s problems there. In a stunning reversal, Van Buren moved away from the war like actions that Jackson advocated to take Texas and tried to come up with a peaceful way to get the territory. He announced publically that he did not support taking Texas which calmed sectional fears and growing tensions of another slave state joining the union.
He doubled down on Jacksons Indian policies and was more ruthless and bloody about it to the point that his own party started fighting him on it. In 1838 he oversaw the ultimate death of over 25% of the Cherokee nation in these removals.
He does get a lot of credit for not going to war with England. Rising tensions on the Canadian border and movements in Canada to break free from England led to military issues on the American border. Instead of sending invasion and attacking forces, Van Buren met personally with England’s ambassador and they worked out a peaceful way to deal with border disputes along the Canadian border while at the same time Van Buren declared American neutrality in the dispute between England and Canada. It was a solid diplomatic move. However, the loss of land that Americans suffered along the border hurt his national support.
The mormons of Missouri sought his help when the Governor of Missouri enacted an extermination order for them to be removed from Missouri. Van Buren refused to help because he didn’t want to lose Missouri’s support in the coming election.
Economy
His treasury idea was good but he couldn’t sell it and the entire time he was in office the economy suffered. It was actually worse when he left office from when he started as the full breadth of the depression didn’t start until three months after he took office.
Foreign Policy
The Canadian border issue was the only real one he faced here and he handled it well. He didn’t annex Texas thereby keeping a strained but not lasting peace with Mexico. He supported Spain the Amistad event in order to keep the peace with that country.
Executive Skills/Congress
He was average at best. Congress fought him on the treasury plan, and eventually started fighting with him over the Indian removal plans. He didn’t do anything forceful for the economy and seemed to focus more on political ramifications than dealing with issues in front of him. He still controlled his party even with the growing rifts but he simply didn’t get anything done to deal with the problems he faced.
Justice/Rights
His Indian policy was worse than Jackson’s. As it relates to slavery he focused more on not upsetting the south then he did any true measure of rights. And on the Amistad issue he sided with Spain. His record here isn’t remarkable at all.
Context
Van Buren won because Jackson wanted him to for the most part. Once he sat in the chair, the events of the moment were too big for him. He was a soldier, not a political leader. Like many a President that followed him the events that were happening while he was in office were bigger than he could handle. Still, when it comes to the economy it wasn’t all his fault and the nature of the office at that time didn’t lend itself to intervention the way we are accustomed to now. His Indian policy was bloody but a continuation of past presidents. He handled foreign policy well given that internal problems in the country were the main focus of the time. He shouldn’t be considered evil or truly awful, but he wasn’t good at the job either.
Conclusion
On persuasion, he gets a 3, on crisis he gets a 3, on economy he gets a 4, foreign policy 7, Congress 5, civil rights 2 and context 5. 29 total points. Van Buren’s inability to lead the nation during his time in office allowed the rise of the first opposition to the Democratic Party in the Whigs. And by the end of his first term, the Whigs were actually able to capture the highest office in the land. In the end, he is usually fairly low on these lists and he should be, but his foreign policy doesn’t get enough credit. That is going to help him here.
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