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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
TheAristocrat
Footballguy
John Candy
timschochet
Footballguy
Good guesses (well, maybe not all of them.) But nope.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Alex Trebek.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Alexander Graham Bell?
Shankopotamus
Footballguy
Interesting. I was wondering if pro athletes would make an appearance on the list (BJK already in) and would have guessed Jackie Robinson, Ali, and Michael Jordan all could qualify (Babe Ruth as well, but the comment refers to african-americans). So one of those three isn't going to make it. Likely Jordan, but I would say his impact on the game and in American culture with product marketing would rank him over Madonna as a cultural phenomenon and over BJK as a recognizable athlete.
timschochet
Footballguy
That's a good guess. But he is on my list (how could he not be?) . He did spend a lot of time in Canada, and even more in Scotland. But the patent was American.
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
OK, no more suspense. The answer is the Native American warrior Tecumseh. He was born in Ohio territory, but mostly fought against the USA in Canada. For the first half of the 19th century, he was the most important native American, an iconic figure both among whites and his own people who opposed the northwestern expansion of the United States.
Later on, though, he was eclipsed by some other figures, one of whom did make it on my list.
Later on, though, he was eclipsed by some other figures, one of whom did make it on my list.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
William McKinley (1897-1901)
Public Acumen/Persuasion
We are entering the 20th Century. A century that started with war, assassination and general turmoil. But when McKinley came to office he had the top political skills of the day. National known by republicans and democrats alike for his work in Ohio, he had been running for President since Cleveland was his second term. McKinley and his support system were so powerful and good at politics that William Jennings Bryan couldn’t make a dent in the election. McKinley housed him and began another long line of Presidental power for the Republicans that only Woodrow Wilson would break between McKinley and the 1930’s.
Supported strongly throughout the nation threw his first term, he easily beat Bryan again in the rematch for a second term. McKinley built a political machine on his back that basically ran the country for 25 years. He certainly had his issues, which will be address, but in terms of political power, McKinley exercised it fairly well and massively effectively.
War & Crisis
Reaching the end of the 19th century, America had no more land to conquer near its borders and American expansion, if it was going to happen, was going to be imperial and colonial in the hemisphere. The tension over these issues was growing exponentially as matters in Cuba came to a head. Previous presidents had little to no success in Cuba but by the time of his administration, the Spanish rule over the island was barbaric. Spain put down a rebellion by throwing hundreds of thousands of Cubans into concentration camps and American popular opinion called for war with Spain over the issue. By the end of 1897 McKinley was pressuring Spain to resolve the issues there peacefully and diplomatically and signs were pointing to a possible resolve. When pro-Spanish protestors rioted in the capital McKinley sent the battleship Maine to anchor in Havanna harbor to show support for American interests and support of Spain in general if it meant a peaceful solution. Anchoring the ship caused massive diplomatic problems in Spain though. Cuban nationals intercepted writings from the Spanish ambassador which showed Spain’s true position. They called McKinley weak, America in no position to do anything and admitted in pretty great detail for a diplomatic communication that the negotiations with America weren’t being done in good faith.
Those letters were published in the United States to get America backing of the Cuban revolution. The nation responded calling for war with Spain. Weeks later the Maine exploded in harbor killing almost all of the sailors on board. The Navy reported that the ultimate cause of the explosion was a Spanish mine in the port. The public wanted war and McKinley’s attempt at a peaceful solution weren’t working. McKinley requested approval from Congress to intervene in Cuba, they granted the power, and McKinley blockaded the island. Spain cut off all diplomatic relationships and the country was at war. Spain formally declared war first and McKinley and congress responded in kind.
The war was won almost immediately by America. Commodore Dewey destroyed the Spanish fleet without losing a single man. Colonel Theodore Roosevelt’s Roughriders captured Santiago. McKinley formally annexed Hawaii for good. The American navy built by Chester Arthur obliterated the Spanish Navy in the Atlantic. In early August we captured Puerto Rico. By the middle of August Spain sued for peace and a cease fire was granted. The Paris Peace Treaty that ended the war was a massive success for America in every way. Spain renounced all claims to Cuba which was an American protectorate for decades, and the US also formally took control of Guam, Puerto Rico, and all of the Phillipean Islands. McKinley took total and complete control of the republican party, Congress and the nation when the war was won.
However, almost immediately after the Treaty, a revolt in the Phillipean Islands that McKinley put down hard. America was given the same title that Cubans gave to Spain for their pressing of colonial power in that island. Thousands died in the contest. That dark mark aside, McKinley’s Spanish American War was a great success.
Economy
McKinley was a gold man and got the American dollar backed by gold once again. He passed tariff legislation that significantly change the structure. He had the backing of organized labor and supported anti-trust legislation though he didn’t pass any of his bills regarding it. The economy was in solid shape when he was assassinated.
Foreign Policy
He fought and won the Spanish American war and expanded American global power. He also issued the Open Door policy with China which was massively important and considered to this day one of the most important foreign policies in American history. He sent troops to China to support the country in the midst of the Boxer rebellion but did it without seeking support in Congress. That single act is the basis of all presidents since using the military without congressional approval first. Finally, McKinley with an able assist from John Hay finally got in place in England an agreement to build a canal in central America. It was the basis, eventually, for the Panama Canal.
Executive Skills/Congress
He had some early problems with his cabinet but by the start of the war, McKinley ran his party, his cabinet, the congress and the country. He was remarkably successful in most everything he did in this arena.
Justice/Rights
Except here. McKinley tried for racial equality. He toured the south and tried to ease tensions there. Blacks believed that McKinley was going to be their greatest friend in office since Lincoln, but his actions didn’t back it up. He basically kept the status quo unable to change anything in the south. Some historians believe that he didn’t truly understand the problem and therefore couldn’t fix it. It might be true. His actions were cosmetic in the end, designed not to anger the white south or hurt his party and did little to stem the growing all out terrorism of blacks.
Context
McKinley helped to usher in a time when America was growing as a world power, almost to the day that George Washington envisioned. His magnificent leadership during the war was only matched by his power over his own party. His failures with civil rights were in keeping with the times and future presidents were worse than him. He managed the economy in the day, trying for silver and gold to work and working with foreign nations to get the world economy on the same page, but when that faltered he supported gold and made that happen. It helped that the gold rush in Alaska happened at the same time.
McKinley entered his second term a hero and powerful politician. He may have been able to grow in stature during the next four years. But we won’t know. His second inaugural called for increased trade treaties with the world that would change the tariff system and open up ports for America. But an assassin took his life with two gunshots to the gut. He initially looked like he might recover but like our past presidents who were shot, medicine at the time wasn’t able to truly figure out what was going on and infections in his body slowly poisoned him to death.
Conclusion
McKinley was a good to great President. He was an unabashed imperialist and republican. He strengthened his party and led the nation through a war. His economy was solid and growing and his popular support was more than any president had since Grant. In an effort to ensure that his second term would continue the success of the first, he endorsed as his new Vice President, Theodore Roosevelt. That selection proved to be just as important as anything else he did in office. On persuasion he gets a 9, on crisis he gets a 8, on economy he gets a 8, on foreign policy a 8, on congress a 9, on civil rights 3, on context 7. 51 total points. McKinley is usually ranked in the middle of the pack of our Presidents. He gets hits for being an imperial president stretching American power into the black mark of the Phillippeans. But he altered the Presidency in how he ran for office and led his party. Presidents following McKinley grew that power.
The basis for a more executive controlled government came back under McKinley as well. As much as Andrew Johnson destroyed it and previous presidents tried to get it back, McKinley finally did it. From McKinley on, the office of President of the United States was the most important and powerful in the nation, and ultimately the world. If you don’t like our colonial advances McKinley is going to score low in your ranking. If you agree that America should always grow its power, he is near the top of the list. If you break down what he actually did in office and how he changed the nature of the office and how political parties use and are used by the President, he is in our highest ranks though. The hit to his ultimate history is that the guy that followed him ended up being a legend. But we shouldn’t forget McKinley and give him his due. As a President, he was ultimately successful and regained the stature of the office.
Public Acumen/Persuasion
We are entering the 20th Century. A century that started with war, assassination and general turmoil. But when McKinley came to office he had the top political skills of the day. National known by republicans and democrats alike for his work in Ohio, he had been running for President since Cleveland was his second term. McKinley and his support system were so powerful and good at politics that William Jennings Bryan couldn’t make a dent in the election. McKinley housed him and began another long line of Presidental power for the Republicans that only Woodrow Wilson would break between McKinley and the 1930’s.
Supported strongly throughout the nation threw his first term, he easily beat Bryan again in the rematch for a second term. McKinley built a political machine on his back that basically ran the country for 25 years. He certainly had his issues, which will be address, but in terms of political power, McKinley exercised it fairly well and massively effectively.
War & Crisis
Reaching the end of the 19th century, America had no more land to conquer near its borders and American expansion, if it was going to happen, was going to be imperial and colonial in the hemisphere. The tension over these issues was growing exponentially as matters in Cuba came to a head. Previous presidents had little to no success in Cuba but by the time of his administration, the Spanish rule over the island was barbaric. Spain put down a rebellion by throwing hundreds of thousands of Cubans into concentration camps and American popular opinion called for war with Spain over the issue. By the end of 1897 McKinley was pressuring Spain to resolve the issues there peacefully and diplomatically and signs were pointing to a possible resolve. When pro-Spanish protestors rioted in the capital McKinley sent the battleship Maine to anchor in Havanna harbor to show support for American interests and support of Spain in general if it meant a peaceful solution. Anchoring the ship caused massive diplomatic problems in Spain though. Cuban nationals intercepted writings from the Spanish ambassador which showed Spain’s true position. They called McKinley weak, America in no position to do anything and admitted in pretty great detail for a diplomatic communication that the negotiations with America weren’t being done in good faith.
Those letters were published in the United States to get America backing of the Cuban revolution. The nation responded calling for war with Spain. Weeks later the Maine exploded in harbor killing almost all of the sailors on board. The Navy reported that the ultimate cause of the explosion was a Spanish mine in the port. The public wanted war and McKinley’s attempt at a peaceful solution weren’t working. McKinley requested approval from Congress to intervene in Cuba, they granted the power, and McKinley blockaded the island. Spain cut off all diplomatic relationships and the country was at war. Spain formally declared war first and McKinley and congress responded in kind.
The war was won almost immediately by America. Commodore Dewey destroyed the Spanish fleet without losing a single man. Colonel Theodore Roosevelt’s Roughriders captured Santiago. McKinley formally annexed Hawaii for good. The American navy built by Chester Arthur obliterated the Spanish Navy in the Atlantic. In early August we captured Puerto Rico. By the middle of August Spain sued for peace and a cease fire was granted. The Paris Peace Treaty that ended the war was a massive success for America in every way. Spain renounced all claims to Cuba which was an American protectorate for decades, and the US also formally took control of Guam, Puerto Rico, and all of the Phillipean Islands. McKinley took total and complete control of the republican party, Congress and the nation when the war was won.
However, almost immediately after the Treaty, a revolt in the Phillipean Islands that McKinley put down hard. America was given the same title that Cubans gave to Spain for their pressing of colonial power in that island. Thousands died in the contest. That dark mark aside, McKinley’s Spanish American War was a great success.
Economy
McKinley was a gold man and got the American dollar backed by gold once again. He passed tariff legislation that significantly change the structure. He had the backing of organized labor and supported anti-trust legislation though he didn’t pass any of his bills regarding it. The economy was in solid shape when he was assassinated.
Foreign Policy
He fought and won the Spanish American war and expanded American global power. He also issued the Open Door policy with China which was massively important and considered to this day one of the most important foreign policies in American history. He sent troops to China to support the country in the midst of the Boxer rebellion but did it without seeking support in Congress. That single act is the basis of all presidents since using the military without congressional approval first. Finally, McKinley with an able assist from John Hay finally got in place in England an agreement to build a canal in central America. It was the basis, eventually, for the Panama Canal.
Executive Skills/Congress
He had some early problems with his cabinet but by the start of the war, McKinley ran his party, his cabinet, the congress and the country. He was remarkably successful in most everything he did in this arena.
Justice/Rights
Except here. McKinley tried for racial equality. He toured the south and tried to ease tensions there. Blacks believed that McKinley was going to be their greatest friend in office since Lincoln, but his actions didn’t back it up. He basically kept the status quo unable to change anything in the south. Some historians believe that he didn’t truly understand the problem and therefore couldn’t fix it. It might be true. His actions were cosmetic in the end, designed not to anger the white south or hurt his party and did little to stem the growing all out terrorism of blacks.
Context
McKinley helped to usher in a time when America was growing as a world power, almost to the day that George Washington envisioned. His magnificent leadership during the war was only matched by his power over his own party. His failures with civil rights were in keeping with the times and future presidents were worse than him. He managed the economy in the day, trying for silver and gold to work and working with foreign nations to get the world economy on the same page, but when that faltered he supported gold and made that happen. It helped that the gold rush in Alaska happened at the same time.
McKinley entered his second term a hero and powerful politician. He may have been able to grow in stature during the next four years. But we won’t know. His second inaugural called for increased trade treaties with the world that would change the tariff system and open up ports for America. But an assassin took his life with two gunshots to the gut. He initially looked like he might recover but like our past presidents who were shot, medicine at the time wasn’t able to truly figure out what was going on and infections in his body slowly poisoned him to death.
Conclusion
McKinley was a good to great President. He was an unabashed imperialist and republican. He strengthened his party and led the nation through a war. His economy was solid and growing and his popular support was more than any president had since Grant. In an effort to ensure that his second term would continue the success of the first, he endorsed as his new Vice President, Theodore Roosevelt. That selection proved to be just as important as anything else he did in office. On persuasion he gets a 9, on crisis he gets a 8, on economy he gets a 8, on foreign policy a 8, on congress a 9, on civil rights 3, on context 7. 51 total points. McKinley is usually ranked in the middle of the pack of our Presidents. He gets hits for being an imperial president stretching American power into the black mark of the Phillippeans. But he altered the Presidency in how he ran for office and led his party. Presidents following McKinley grew that power.
The basis for a more executive controlled government came back under McKinley as well. As much as Andrew Johnson destroyed it and previous presidents tried to get it back, McKinley finally did it. From McKinley on, the office of President of the United States was the most important and powerful in the nation, and ultimately the world. If you don’t like our colonial advances McKinley is going to score low in your ranking. If you agree that America should always grow its power, he is near the top of the list. If you break down what he actually did in office and how he changed the nature of the office and how political parties use and are used by the President, he is in our highest ranks though. The hit to his ultimate history is that the guy that followed him ended up being a legend. But we shouldn’t forget McKinley and give him his due. As a President, he was ultimately successful and regained the stature of the office.
Sweet J
Footballguy
Sorry. I tried to be careful how I worded it (hence my passive "attributed to a president."). You are right -- it's doubtful he actually said it. But it sounds enough like something that SOB Jackson would say that I like to pretend it's true.
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timschochet
Footballguy
83. Jim Thorpe
Man, I've had enough of this ####.
The greatest American athlete of all time? Hell yes. Consider these feats:
College- Carlyle
Champion high jumper (jumped 5.9 feet in street clothes on first ever attempt)
Champion all around track and field
Champion football player (under Pop Warner, played running back, defensive back, place kicker, punter, the team won National Championship, and Thorpe scored 25 touchdowns and 198 points.)
MVP of baseball team
MVP of lacrosse team
National champion, ballroom dancing (that's right!)
Olympics
Decathlon Gold Medalist
Pentathlon Gold Medalist
Won 8 out of 15 individual events
(These were taken away when it was learned Thorpe chose to participate in professional sports.)
Amateur Athletic Union All Around Championship- winner
Baseball
Played with the 1912 Champion New York Giants, Later the Cincinnati Reds and the Boston Braves. Lifetime batting average .252
Football
Star of the Canton Bulldogs, which won championships in 1916, 1917, and 1919 (supposedly in 1919 Thorpe had a 95 ft punt.) First president of the APFA, which became the NFL.
Basketball
Played professionally for the Larue "World Famous" Indians.
All of this ended sadly. Thorpe was an alcoholic, and lost all his money. He died destitute in Lomita, CA. He is buried in Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. There is controversy over this- the Native American tribe that he was born to (Sauk) wants his remains brought back to native lands in Oklahoma. This matter remains in litigation.
Next up: another football player, this one from the University of Southern California, but more famous for other exploits...
Man, I've had enough of this ####.
The greatest American athlete of all time? Hell yes. Consider these feats:
College- Carlyle
Champion high jumper (jumped 5.9 feet in street clothes on first ever attempt)
Champion all around track and field
Champion football player (under Pop Warner, played running back, defensive back, place kicker, punter, the team won National Championship, and Thorpe scored 25 touchdowns and 198 points.)
MVP of baseball team
MVP of lacrosse team
National champion, ballroom dancing (that's right!)
Olympics
Decathlon Gold Medalist
Pentathlon Gold Medalist
Won 8 out of 15 individual events
(These were taken away when it was learned Thorpe chose to participate in professional sports.)
Amateur Athletic Union All Around Championship- winner
Baseball
Played with the 1912 Champion New York Giants, Later the Cincinnati Reds and the Boston Braves. Lifetime batting average .252
Football
Star of the Canton Bulldogs, which won championships in 1916, 1917, and 1919 (supposedly in 1919 Thorpe had a 95 ft punt.) First president of the APFA, which became the NFL.
Basketball
Played professionally for the Larue "World Famous" Indians.
All of this ended sadly. Thorpe was an alcoholic, and lost all his money. He died destitute in Lomita, CA. He is buried in Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. There is controversy over this- the Native American tribe that he was born to (Sauk) wants his remains brought back to native lands in Oklahoma. This matter remains in litigation.
Next up: another football player, this one from the University of Southern California, but more famous for other exploits...
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
timschochet
Footballguy
Wrong Trojan, Jon. Try again.
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually, without looking, I think there are USC grads on my list, but only one played football.
dparker713
Footballguy
With the Long and McCarthy you claimed greatest meant most influential/important some how. Sure, Thorpe is famous and was a great athlete, but that does not make him either influential or important.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm impressed. Did you look it up or did you already know?
Care to guess who the other famous Trojan is?
timschochet
Footballguy
As I stated, I was combining meanings. That's why I didn't want to argue it. Long and McCarthy are on this list because they are influential. Thorpe is on this list because he is great. (Clarence Darrow as well.) As we get to the top the list, it will be dominated by people who were both great AND influential.
timschochet
Footballguy
Good guess! But no.
I can see listing McKinley as one of our better Presidents. Right now you have him ahead of Jefferson and Adams, which seems a bit high. I'm guessing he gets tweaked a little lower in the final rankings.
timschochet
Footballguy
I just spent a few minutes listening to Al Sharpton on MSNBC before I had to turn it off.
Putting aside what a vile human being this is, the man can't speak. I mean he is really atrocious. How did he get to host his own show? Just embarrassing.
Putting aside what a vile human being this is, the man can't speak. I mean he is really atrocious. How did he get to host his own show? Just embarrassing.
timschochet
Footballguy
Guarantee you won't have a problem with the person I chose. But you'll have to wait a while.
Stormin Norman in that case. A bit surprise by the pick, but can't argue with him as a great American.
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ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
cstu
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
No that's not it. I think my question to you was unfair, because the person I'm thinking of attended USC graduate school. He attended Purdue as an undergraduate.
And that's the last clue I'm giving. If you know who it is, please don't reveal it here.
timschochet
Footballguy
Leviathan
Footballguy
Understood. I asked this question earlier in your thread but didn't receive a response. Have you seen "Russian Ark"? A quasi-documentary, all shot in one take, covering 300 years of Russian history.
Sorry for the hijack!
timschochet
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
I read your post BFS. The answer is YES! 
Leviathan
Footballguy
Be sure to check it out. I found it to be spectacular and the cinematography was exquisite. I believe that it is still on Netflix.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I decided it was too much of a clue and deleted it.I read your post BFS. The answer is YES!
timschochet
Footballguy
82. John Wayne
If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.
Yes, Marion Morrison did play football at USC. But he got into an injury while surfing and had to give up his scholarship. For years he worked as a B actor in Hollywood, until 1939 when he got his big breakthrough in Stagecoach, directed by John Ford. From that point on he starred in 142 movies for the next 35 years. His biographer wrote:
John Wayne personified for millions the nation's frontier heritage. Eighty-three of his movies were Westerns, and in them he played cowboys, cavalrymen, and unconquerable loners extracted from the Republic's central creation myth.
This is very succinct and largely true. And it's why Wayne, over and above all other movie stars, belongs on this list. He himself knew that what he was presenting was a myth; he admitted as much in a 1969 Playboy Interview. But he justified it by claiming that it was a positive thing for the American public to believe what they were seeing. Wayne argued that the truth should take a back seat to the ideal: he decried movies like High Noon and The Wild Bunch which presented the west in a negative light, and proclaimed the superiority of some of his own movies like Alamo and The Green Berets, with heroes so much larger than life that it was obvious they weren't real.
It's ironic, then, that critics regard Wayne's best movie (and one of the greatest movies of all time) as The Searchers, with it's cold, cutting realism. Wayne himself admitted it was the best film he was ever in. But interestingly enough, when I have talked to my family members of a certain age who loved John Wayne (and that is almost all of them- very few moviegoers disliked Wayne) they don't talk about serious movies like The Searchers or Red River. Instead, they dwell on the more light-hearted affairs like McClintock or the original True Grit. Others speak warmly of The Quiet Man or The Sands of Iwo Jima, perhaps the quintessential John Wayne role.
In that same Playboy Interview, Wayne made some very controversial comments, justifying the extermination of native Americans, and believing that blacks should accept a subservient role in society until such time as they were educated to become equal partners. He also revealed that he, along with his buddy Ronald Reagan and a few others, had ousted movie stars and writers whom they suspected of being Communist during the Red Scare. He was proud of this. But he also quickly agreed that he didn't know everything, and that he hoped his friends and family would think of him, after he died, as a good man.
I can personally attest to the truth of this last. I have a very good friend whose brother had leukemia in the early 1970s. The family had no insurance and little money when his brother was diagnosed. They were at the Newport hospital which is now known as Hoag. Out of the blue Wayne visited (he lived nearby) and informed the hospital he would be paying for all of the bills. He didn't know the family and never met them. None of this was publicized, but the hospital informed my friend's family that Wayne had done this often before.
Next up: A graduate of West Point, but more closely associated with VMI...
If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.
Yes, Marion Morrison did play football at USC. But he got into an injury while surfing and had to give up his scholarship. For years he worked as a B actor in Hollywood, until 1939 when he got his big breakthrough in Stagecoach, directed by John Ford. From that point on he starred in 142 movies for the next 35 years. His biographer wrote:
John Wayne personified for millions the nation's frontier heritage. Eighty-three of his movies were Westerns, and in them he played cowboys, cavalrymen, and unconquerable loners extracted from the Republic's central creation myth.
This is very succinct and largely true. And it's why Wayne, over and above all other movie stars, belongs on this list. He himself knew that what he was presenting was a myth; he admitted as much in a 1969 Playboy Interview. But he justified it by claiming that it was a positive thing for the American public to believe what they were seeing. Wayne argued that the truth should take a back seat to the ideal: he decried movies like High Noon and The Wild Bunch which presented the west in a negative light, and proclaimed the superiority of some of his own movies like Alamo and The Green Berets, with heroes so much larger than life that it was obvious they weren't real.
It's ironic, then, that critics regard Wayne's best movie (and one of the greatest movies of all time) as The Searchers, with it's cold, cutting realism. Wayne himself admitted it was the best film he was ever in. But interestingly enough, when I have talked to my family members of a certain age who loved John Wayne (and that is almost all of them- very few moviegoers disliked Wayne) they don't talk about serious movies like The Searchers or Red River. Instead, they dwell on the more light-hearted affairs like McClintock or the original True Grit. Others speak warmly of The Quiet Man or The Sands of Iwo Jima, perhaps the quintessential John Wayne role.
In that same Playboy Interview, Wayne made some very controversial comments, justifying the extermination of native Americans, and believing that blacks should accept a subservient role in society until such time as they were educated to become equal partners. He also revealed that he, along with his buddy Ronald Reagan and a few others, had ousted movie stars and writers whom they suspected of being Communist during the Red Scare. He was proud of this. But he also quickly agreed that he didn't know everything, and that he hoped his friends and family would think of him, after he died, as a good man.
I can personally attest to the truth of this last. I have a very good friend whose brother had leukemia in the early 1970s. The family had no insurance and little money when his brother was diagnosed. They were at the Newport hospital which is now known as Hoag. Out of the blue Wayne visited (he lived nearby) and informed the hospital he would be paying for all of the bills. He didn't know the family and never met them. None of this was publicized, but the hospital informed my friend's family that Wayne had done this often before.
Next up: A graduate of West Point, but more closely associated with VMI...
timschochet
Footballguy
81. Stonewall Jackson
Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy if possible.
Thomas J. Jackson was only famous during the last year of his life: from March of 1862, when the Valley Campaign began, to May of 1863, when he was shot by friendly fire at the Battle of Chancellorsville. During those 14 months, Stonewall Jackson was the most popular man in the Confederacy, bigger than Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee. He was also regarded by the north as invincible. And he created a legacy as one of the greatest military minds in world history- and one of the strangest.
Jackson received the nickname "Stonewall" during First Manassas (Bull Run) when another General, Barnard Bee of South Carolina, cried, "look at Jackson, standing there like a stone wall!" Though this was regarded as a compliment, some historians believe it was actually a complaint because Jackson wasn't moving fast enough for Bee. The truth of this will never be known because Bee died almost immediately after making the statement. Jackson was a minor hero after that battle, and his troops became known as the Stonewall Brigade. But it was in the Shenandoah Valley that Jackson became world famous. During the Valley campaign he was outnumbered by federal troops 3 to 1, yet he fought 5 engagements, and each one Jackson had the majority at the point of attack. He accomplished this feat through speed and by taking advantage of the technology of trains for the first time in warfare. Jackson's strategy is still studied by military historians today.
In the Seven Days Campaign which followed, Jackson faltered- most historians blame this on exhaustion. But following that lapse, he continued to perform brilliantly until his death. Jackson was very secretive about his orders; he explained very little to his subordinates. Military experts believe that Stonewall had an implicit understanding with Lee and that Lee didn't have to give him direct orders; Jackson knew what to do. This theory is used to explain part of the reason why Lee lost at Gettysburg: **** Ewell, who took over Jackson's troops, didn't understand Lee's implicit commands and so failed to take the heights early on. (Other historians believe this justification was part of the "Lost Cause" movement which attempted to glorify Lee at the expense of all other officers.)
As I wrote, Jackson had strange habits, such as sucking on lemons all day during battle and standing straight without moving for hours because he believed that his blood circulated better. He was a deeply religious man, a Presbyterian, and he was said to have treated all blacks he met with equal respect. However, he also believed that God had ordained slavery. Like Lee he was a Virginian (my reference to the Virginia Military Institute is because Jackson taught there and is revered there), and he felt greater loyalty to the state than to the Union. Next to Lee, Stonewall Jackson remains the most famous military leader of the Confederacy.
Next up: The illustrator who became a doctor...
Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy if possible.
Thomas J. Jackson was only famous during the last year of his life: from March of 1862, when the Valley Campaign began, to May of 1863, when he was shot by friendly fire at the Battle of Chancellorsville. During those 14 months, Stonewall Jackson was the most popular man in the Confederacy, bigger than Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee. He was also regarded by the north as invincible. And he created a legacy as one of the greatest military minds in world history- and one of the strangest.
Jackson received the nickname "Stonewall" during First Manassas (Bull Run) when another General, Barnard Bee of South Carolina, cried, "look at Jackson, standing there like a stone wall!" Though this was regarded as a compliment, some historians believe it was actually a complaint because Jackson wasn't moving fast enough for Bee. The truth of this will never be known because Bee died almost immediately after making the statement. Jackson was a minor hero after that battle, and his troops became known as the Stonewall Brigade. But it was in the Shenandoah Valley that Jackson became world famous. During the Valley campaign he was outnumbered by federal troops 3 to 1, yet he fought 5 engagements, and each one Jackson had the majority at the point of attack. He accomplished this feat through speed and by taking advantage of the technology of trains for the first time in warfare. Jackson's strategy is still studied by military historians today.
In the Seven Days Campaign which followed, Jackson faltered- most historians blame this on exhaustion. But following that lapse, he continued to perform brilliantly until his death. Jackson was very secretive about his orders; he explained very little to his subordinates. Military experts believe that Stonewall had an implicit understanding with Lee and that Lee didn't have to give him direct orders; Jackson knew what to do. This theory is used to explain part of the reason why Lee lost at Gettysburg: **** Ewell, who took over Jackson's troops, didn't understand Lee's implicit commands and so failed to take the heights early on. (Other historians believe this justification was part of the "Lost Cause" movement which attempted to glorify Lee at the expense of all other officers.)
As I wrote, Jackson had strange habits, such as sucking on lemons all day during battle and standing straight without moving for hours because he believed that his blood circulated better. He was a deeply religious man, a Presbyterian, and he was said to have treated all blacks he met with equal respect. However, he also believed that God had ordained slavery. Like Lee he was a Virginian (my reference to the Virginia Military Institute is because Jackson taught there and is revered there), and he felt greater loyalty to the state than to the Union. Next to Lee, Stonewall Jackson remains the most famous military leader of the Confederacy.
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dparker713
Footballguy
I just have no words at this point...
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
On phone frequently - would you be kind enough to post the bottom quintile (81-100) of the Top 100 Americans? TIA
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Stonewall Jackson is ahead of John Marshall?
Stonewall Jackson.
John Marshall.
I have no choice but to quote the immortal words of the great American philosopher Johnny Tyler, "Christ Almighty. It's like I'm playing cards with my brother's kids, nerve racking son's of *******!"
Stonewall Jackson.
John Marshall.
I have no choice but to quote the immortal words of the great American philosopher Johnny Tyler, "Christ Almighty. It's like I'm playing cards with my brother's kids, nerve racking son's of *******!"
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timschochet
Footballguy
Obviously I have a lot of people ranked ahead of Marshall. I'm sure I'll be hearing more about this from you law school types.
Yankee, my original list included Ayn Rand, but I was forced to leave her off. Would that have made your head explode?
Yankee, my original list included Ayn Rand, but I was forced to leave her off. Would that have made your head explode?
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