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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (1 Viewer)
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timschochet
Footballguy
19. John Adams
I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy,
The quote strikes me as kind of sad, and also a failure to realize that the American Revolution was not the end of the struggle towards liberty but only its beginning. He should have recognized that upon becoming Vice President and President, and I'm sure he did. Which is why it's kind of a sad quote.
Before anyone challenges me for not putting Mr. Adams at an even higher spot (I'm sure, if it were up to Yankee, top 5), let me point out that at this point in the rankings they're almost interchangeable. All of these guys deserve to be here. Adams of course was one of our greatest statesmen, crucial to both the creation of the country and the foundation of its first political party (the Federalists) along with Alexander Hamilton. He helped to write the Declaration of Independence. I'm not too hopped up about the Aliens and Seditions Act, though- Donald Trump would have approved of that one.
I understand that the HBO miniseries, and the book by David McCullough on which it is based, are both excellent, but I haven't seen or read either one.
Up next: Historians are not sure whether he was born in North Carolina or South Carolina...it was somewhere on the border...
I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy,
The quote strikes me as kind of sad, and also a failure to realize that the American Revolution was not the end of the struggle towards liberty but only its beginning. He should have recognized that upon becoming Vice President and President, and I'm sure he did. Which is why it's kind of a sad quote.
Before anyone challenges me for not putting Mr. Adams at an even higher spot (I'm sure, if it were up to Yankee, top 5), let me point out that at this point in the rankings they're almost interchangeable. All of these guys deserve to be here. Adams of course was one of our greatest statesmen, crucial to both the creation of the country and the foundation of its first political party (the Federalists) along with Alexander Hamilton. He helped to write the Declaration of Independence. I'm not too hopped up about the Aliens and Seditions Act, though- Donald Trump would have approved of that one.
I understand that the HBO miniseries, and the book by David McCullough on which it is based, are both excellent, but I haven't seen or read either one.
Up next: Historians are not sure whether he was born in North Carolina or South Carolina...it was somewhere on the border...
timschochet
Footballguy
jwb
Footballguy
Both are great. In a bit of a surprise, the miniseries really delves deeply into the post-declaration stuff. In fact, the declaration is signed, sealed, and delivered by the end of the second hour, with five episodes that follow.
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timschochet
Footballguy
18. Andrew Jackson
One man with courage makes a majority.
In my ranking of American Presidents, I was heavily criticized for having Jackson too low. That was more of a good vs. bad evaluation; I considered the "Trail of Tears", which I regard as probably the single worst crime in American history, and found him wanting, and not deserving of being regarded as a great President.
This ranking has other considerations however. Jackson is clearly a great American. He lived a very exciting life, fought the Revolutionary War at the age of 13 (during which he was captured), killed a man in a duel over his wife's honor, and won the Battle of New Orleans, one of the key events in American history. He was the first populist President (ugh! But it's extremely important in terms of it's effects on our history and culture.) And he stood down Calhoun and nullification, which foreshadowed what the final result of the Civil War would be.
His ranking on this list is secured.
Next up: A National Merit Scholar from Lakewood High School in Seattle, Washington...
One man with courage makes a majority.
In my ranking of American Presidents, I was heavily criticized for having Jackson too low. That was more of a good vs. bad evaluation; I considered the "Trail of Tears", which I regard as probably the single worst crime in American history, and found him wanting, and not deserving of being regarded as a great President.
This ranking has other considerations however. Jackson is clearly a great American. He lived a very exciting life, fought the Revolutionary War at the age of 13 (during which he was captured), killed a man in a duel over his wife's honor, and won the Battle of New Orleans, one of the key events in American history. He was the first populist President (ugh! But it's extremely important in terms of it's effects on our history and culture.) And he stood down Calhoun and nullification, which foreshadowed what the final result of the Civil War would be.
His ranking on this list is secured.
Next up: A National Merit Scholar from Lakewood High School in Seattle, Washington...
timschochet
Footballguy
17. Bill Gates
Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning.
Bill Gates, the co-founder of Microsoft and the chief architect of it's software, comes in at 17. His is a remarkable story- at 32 he became the youngest ever self-made billionaire. Per Wiki, in the last 5 years alone his personal wealth has doubled from 42 billion to 80 billion. Damn!
And of course, his impact on our society is about as huge as anyone on this list. His company is the world's largest personal computer company. Gates is, together with another guy who will be ranked shortly, one of the absolute titans of our modern computer age.
Part of the reason for his big success is his ability to reconfigure his product to meet consumer demands. That being said, critics accuse him of monopolizing the industry and crushing all opposition while forcing consumers to purchase his ever changing product. This same charge has been made against just about all of the most popular items created since the Industrial Revolution began.
Bill has also followed in the spirit of Andrew Carnegie and been a very generous philanthropist, though that in itself would not move him higher or lower on this list.
Next up: His middle initial didn't stand for anything.
Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning.
Bill Gates, the co-founder of Microsoft and the chief architect of it's software, comes in at 17. His is a remarkable story- at 32 he became the youngest ever self-made billionaire. Per Wiki, in the last 5 years alone his personal wealth has doubled from 42 billion to 80 billion. Damn!
And of course, his impact on our society is about as huge as anyone on this list. His company is the world's largest personal computer company. Gates is, together with another guy who will be ranked shortly, one of the absolute titans of our modern computer age.
Part of the reason for his big success is his ability to reconfigure his product to meet consumer demands. That being said, critics accuse him of monopolizing the industry and crushing all opposition while forcing consumers to purchase his ever changing product. This same charge has been made against just about all of the most popular items created since the Industrial Revolution began.
Bill has also followed in the spirit of Andrew Carnegie and been a very generous philanthropist, though that in itself would not move him higher or lower on this list.
Next up: His middle initial didn't stand for anything.
FUBAR
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm already working on my 100 favorite novel list. I plan to have good write-ups, but it's a lot easier to do, because I only need evaluate them on one criteria: how much I loved the novel.
Most of the ones on the list are books I have read several times in my life. Almost none of them would be considered "literary" novels. They are almost all popular, filled with page-turning plots, suspense, and good characters. A lot are historical epics as that is one of my favorite reads. But there is really is a rather wide variety, I think. Looking forward to this.
Most of the ones on the list are books I have read several times in my life. Almost none of them would be considered "literary" novels. They are almost all popular, filled with page-turning plots, suspense, and good characters. A lot are historical epics as that is one of my favorite reads. But there is really is a rather wide variety, I think. Looking forward to this.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I'm mostly ambivalent when it comes to Microsoft software - it serves its purpose, especially Office but I have to give Gates props for his foundation - it appears he's tried to do some good with the billions he's amassed.
Green and Gold
Footballguy
This is a good read, thanks Tim.
I'm not looking forward to the Steve Jobs entry, because in 100 years I think he'll barely be a blip on the historical radar. His company's devices revolutionized how we consume entertainment, and that's about it. I guess you could argue that the app store created a new industry for developers.
The PC changed how everyone does business, entertains themselves, and obtains information. Bill Gates on this list makes perfect sense. A guy that made it mobile, and look pretty? Valuable, yes, but top 20 great American? I don't agree. Unless, of course, you had a different 'tech titan' in mind.
I'm not looking forward to the Steve Jobs entry, because in 100 years I think he'll barely be a blip on the historical radar. His company's devices revolutionized how we consume entertainment, and that's about it. I guess you could argue that the app store created a new industry for developers.
The PC changed how everyone does business, entertains themselves, and obtains information. Bill Gates on this list makes perfect sense. A guy that made it mobile, and look pretty? Valuable, yes, but top 20 great American? I don't agree. Unless, of course, you had a different 'tech titan' in mind.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I don't think Jack Tramiel qualifies so must be Nolan.Then again maybe you mean that Steve guy, Steve Case. (ETA: I guess this leaves him out.)
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Not all art is accessible to all audiences. Some like Woody Allen and Lenny Bruce, others Cheech and Chong or Dude, Where's my Car. Some like The Mahavishnu Orchestra others Kanye. Myself, I find Jackson Pollock unaccessible.
Perhaps if you would do some more LSD you would enjoy each of them a bit more.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well there's a thought.
Have you been to the Museum of Modern Art in NYC, DW? I'm the same as you; I always thought Pollack was total crap. Then I saw a wall sized splash painting at MOMA and... I don't know. I still wouldn't call it art. But there was something there I hadn't seen in a book or magazine. It was like staring into the abyss...I don't know.
Have you been to the Museum of Modern Art in NYC, DW? I'm the same as you; I always thought Pollack was total crap. Then I saw a wall sized splash painting at MOMA and... I don't know. I still wouldn't call it art. But there was something there I hadn't seen in a book or magazine. It was like staring into the abyss...I don't know.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I have been, though not recently. New York itself is one of those things that I find I do not enjoy the way others do. I am a country boy at heart I guess. Some day I will get back and will give it another shot. Age may have changed my perspective.
My wife and daughter both enjoy New York. I send them once a year. They enjoy a show or two and going to the museums, shopping, and visiting friends. Perhaps next spring I will go with them and give it another try. I do agree that pictures in books are no substitute for standing in front of art of substantial size and scope. I remember vividly being mesmerized by Day in the Park when I finally stood in front of it, the same for the Mona Lisa and the Sistine Chapel when I stood under it.
dparker713
Footballguy
He stole DOS, copied Windows and leveraged the OS monopoly into other areas despite mostly inferior products (Excel became pretty damn great pretty quickly). He deserves all the credit for being a ruthless business man, but on the coding side he was never all that impressive.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't pretend to be an expert in the personal computer industry. I am aware that in the instance of both guys that I have chosen there's a lot of controversy about their specific creative input. Nonetheless they both were able enough or lucky enough or ruthless enough (or a combination of the three) to be the face and name that people associate with their product. Therefore IMO they justify their rankings.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
16. Harry Truman
It's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit.
In my Presidential rankings, I actually have Harry ranked ahead of FDR. Given this category, I can't quite do the same here, but Truman deserves to be recognized as one of our greatest Americans all the same, especially given the retrospect of winning the Cold War. It took us and the Soviets 40 years to recognize that Truman's policy of containment actually won the Cold War. That policy was designed by one George Kennan in the State Department, but Truman had to carry it out against the will of several of his advisors and Congress. The three outstanding actions that Truman took in this regard were:
1. The Truman Doctrine (military support of Greece's government against a Soviet sponsored Communist insurgency.)
2. The Marshall Plan (financial support of the democracies of western Europe.
3. The Berlin Airlift.
These three momentous actions, all engineered by Truman, stopped Stalin in his tracks. Truman also of course prevented South Korea from being conquered, and then fired Doug MacArthur when the general proposed using nuclear weapons against China, an act which would have changed the world, negatively, in a fateful way. It is therefore extremely ironic that Republicans successfully argued that Harry Truman was "weak" on Communism. They did this in two ways: first, led by Luce, they argued that Truman had "lost China". But the truth is that America's faith in Chiang Kai Shek, (which began with Franklin Roosevelt) was heavily misplaced. Nothing Truman could have done would have prevented the fall of mainland China to Mao Tse Tung.
Second, the Republicans in Congress, led mostly by Richard Nixon (and later by Joe McCarthy), claimed that the Truman administration and the State Department were filled with Communist spies. Because they were actually able to uncover one real spy, Alger Hiss, they convinced the American public that this claim might be true. For the rest of his life Truman was never able to escape the twin claims that he was weak on China and his administration was filled with traitors. For these reasons plus his unpopular firing of MacArthur, he had the lowest approval rating of any President in history upon leaving office.
Truman is of course also remembered for a number of other controversial and momentous decisions, such as dropping the first atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, desegregating the US military, and seizing US steel in order to force an accommodation between the unions and management. His train campaign of 1948 and "Give 'Em Hell" will long be thought of as one of politics' most stunning upsets. But his chief contribution, and the reason he is on this list, is that he won the Cold War for us.
Up next: One of the few Buddhists on this list...
It's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit.
In my Presidential rankings, I actually have Harry ranked ahead of FDR. Given this category, I can't quite do the same here, but Truman deserves to be recognized as one of our greatest Americans all the same, especially given the retrospect of winning the Cold War. It took us and the Soviets 40 years to recognize that Truman's policy of containment actually won the Cold War. That policy was designed by one George Kennan in the State Department, but Truman had to carry it out against the will of several of his advisors and Congress. The three outstanding actions that Truman took in this regard were:
1. The Truman Doctrine (military support of Greece's government against a Soviet sponsored Communist insurgency.)
2. The Marshall Plan (financial support of the democracies of western Europe.
3. The Berlin Airlift.
These three momentous actions, all engineered by Truman, stopped Stalin in his tracks. Truman also of course prevented South Korea from being conquered, and then fired Doug MacArthur when the general proposed using nuclear weapons against China, an act which would have changed the world, negatively, in a fateful way. It is therefore extremely ironic that Republicans successfully argued that Harry Truman was "weak" on Communism. They did this in two ways: first, led by Luce, they argued that Truman had "lost China". But the truth is that America's faith in Chiang Kai Shek, (which began with Franklin Roosevelt) was heavily misplaced. Nothing Truman could have done would have prevented the fall of mainland China to Mao Tse Tung.
Second, the Republicans in Congress, led mostly by Richard Nixon (and later by Joe McCarthy), claimed that the Truman administration and the State Department were filled with Communist spies. Because they were actually able to uncover one real spy, Alger Hiss, they convinced the American public that this claim might be true. For the rest of his life Truman was never able to escape the twin claims that he was weak on China and his administration was filled with traitors. For these reasons plus his unpopular firing of MacArthur, he had the lowest approval rating of any President in history upon leaving office.
Truman is of course also remembered for a number of other controversial and momentous decisions, such as dropping the first atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, desegregating the US military, and seizing US steel in order to force an accommodation between the unions and management. His train campaign of 1948 and "Give 'Em Hell" will long be thought of as one of politics' most stunning upsets. But his chief contribution, and the reason he is on this list, is that he won the Cold War for us.
Up next: One of the few Buddhists on this list...
timschochet
Footballguy
15. Steve Jobs
Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower.
There was some indication, after I ranked Bill Gates and made it pretty obvious that I was also going to have Jobs high on this list, that I would be criticized for it. So fire away. I'm not an expert on Mr. Jobs life history; I haven't read the book or seen the movie. There's some question as to whether or not he is the creative force behind all (or any?) of the products that are related to him, of which so many have altered our lives. However, there is no question that he was the promoting force behind Apple and these products, and that is perhaps even more important. Consider the long list of items that Wikipedia lists:
Apple II
Apple Lisa
The Macintosh computer
The NeXT computer
iMac
iTunes
iPod
iPhone
iPad
It's just an amazing list. I can't see how anyone cannot justify his high placement here. But if you really think he doesn't belong, go ahead and make your case.
Up next: Has the same name (and photograph) of a guy who posts regularly in this forum...
Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower.
There was some indication, after I ranked Bill Gates and made it pretty obvious that I was also going to have Jobs high on this list, that I would be criticized for it. So fire away. I'm not an expert on Mr. Jobs life history; I haven't read the book or seen the movie. There's some question as to whether or not he is the creative force behind all (or any?) of the products that are related to him, of which so many have altered our lives. However, there is no question that he was the promoting force behind Apple and these products, and that is perhaps even more important. Consider the long list of items that Wikipedia lists:
Apple II
Apple Lisa
The Macintosh computer
The NeXT computer
iMac
iTunes
iPod
iPhone
iPad
It's just an amazing list. I can't see how anyone cannot justify his high placement here. But if you really think he doesn't belong, go ahead and make your case.
Up next: Has the same name (and photograph) of a guy who posts regularly in this forum...
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Gates and Jobs. They'll be afterthoughts 20 to 30 years after their deaths, if not sooner. They're basically Ray Krocks of the computer industry. Far from the greatest U.S. citizens of all time.
Andrew Jackson did some pretty lousy things to the Native Americans - I can't in good conscience consider him "great" as a result. If you read your Zinn, you might come to think Jackson's "populist" title was bogus as well. He did as much to help out the establishment as anyone.
Andrew Jackson did some pretty lousy things to the Native Americans - I can't in good conscience consider him "great" as a result. If you read your Zinn, you might come to think Jackson's "populist" title was bogus as well. He did as much to help out the establishment as anyone.
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timschochet
Footballguy
1. It may be. I'm not too sure about that. I'll make a better argument about that after I rank my next guy.
2. My biggest dilemma by far in doing this was how to deal with guys like Jackson. I had him ranked much lower than most people on my President's list, mainly because of what you're referring to. But he is simply too big a figure to American history not to receive high placement. Jackson dominated many of the years of our history between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. He was a giant.
timschochet
Footballguy
Anyone else think Gates and Jobs will be afterthoughts in 30 years?
Gr00vus
Footballguy
It's your list, and your definition of great. He certainly had a big impact on the U.S., but to me impact doesn't equate directly to greatness - a person and their actions, their impact, would have to be mostly positive for me to consider them an all time great. Jackson comes with too much negative impact to qualify for me.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Nick Vermiel for #14?
Not sure I agree. First, Ray Kroc is still an iconic name 30 years after his death, and he led an industry that was hardly transformative. Second, I don't know that there are two more publicly known icons of the information age. There are certainly other pioneers, who may have done more in the industry - but the face of IT for the last 15-20 years has been Jobs and Gates.
Gates name will live longer - due to his philanthropic foundation, but Jobs really transformed the personal computing space with the Apple product line.
If you are looking for a "sleeper" from the IT world who has his fingers into more meaningful projects that will impact American life - then the answer is Eric Schmidt. Not sure if ti will be net-positive, or net-negative - but Schmidt and Google will likely have as big an influence on Americans as any company ever to exist.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Krock was one of the founders of the modern fast food industry - I think that actually was pretty transformative. Gates and Jobs are known icons now, but they'll be pretty easily forgotten in the course of time, like whoever it was that first successfully mass marketed color televisions. Great businessmen maybe, but top 20 greatest U.S. citizens of all time? Not even close.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
Its not like he highly ranked Carnegie, or Rockfeller, or Mellon, or Morgan. Hell, more contemporary, where are Walton or Buffett?
Krock was one of the founders of the modern fast food industry - I think that actually was pretty transformative. Gates and Jobs are known icons now, but they'll be pretty easily forgotten in the course of time, like whoever it was that first successfully mass marketed color televisions. Great businessmen maybe, but top 20 greatest U.S. citizens of all time? Not even close.
Dave Mustaine
Footballguy
Awesome! I'd like to thank the academy, the Hollywood foreign press, and speedballs.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Hopefully you'll comment on my 100 favorite novels. But anyhow I appreciate you taking the time to read it.
Tom Hagen
Footballguy
jwb
Footballguy
No. And I think, in the context of history, their status may grow. In 200-300 years, they might be credited with "inventing" the computer.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
On the TV point, maybe I'm wrong, but Tim hasn't had Philo Farnsworth yet. Based on the list so far, I'd guess he's still to come.
Krock was one of the founders of the modern fast food industry - I think that actually was pretty transformative. Gates and Jobs are known icons now, but they'll be pretty easily forgotten in the course of time, like whoever it was that first successfully mass marketed color televisions. Great businessmen maybe, but top 20 greatest U.S. citizens of all time? Not even close.
ETA: I was reading too fast, and just noticed you were talking about marketing of color TVs, so I guess Farnsworth is far from your example.
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timschochet
Footballguy
14. Henry Ford
Don't find fault, find a remedy.
Here's another guy I'm not fond of. I like the one who posts here a lot better, actually. The real Henry Ford had a streak of anti-semitism that matched Julius Streicher- like Streicher, Ford even published a newsletter complaining about Jews called The Eternal Jew. The half-American head of the Hitler Youth, Baldur von Shirac, claimed that he got his hatred of Jews from Henry Ford. In the 30s Ford supported Father Coughlin's hateful tirades. At the outbreak of World War II Ford refused to aid in the war effort, arguing that we were on the wrong side. Great guy, huh?
But yeah, in terms of this list he was. His promotion of the automobile as a device not for the rich but for the middle classes and below completely changed every aspect of American society. His sponsorship of assembly line mass production changed American industry and paved the way for decades of prosperity, as did his voluntary decision to pay his workers a higher wage so that they could afford to buy his product. These factors, all hugely important, make Henry Ford the greatest businessman in our history.
I was also thinking of Ford during the debate over my last pick of Steve Jobs. Like Gates and Jobs, Henry Ford did not create the automobile, nor did he design the assembly line. But he was their greatest promotor, and for that he will be remembered for centuries to come. I feel like Gates and Jobs are the same when it comes to the computer age.
Up next: The other Purdue graduate on this list, along with John Wooden...
Don't find fault, find a remedy.
Here's another guy I'm not fond of. I like the one who posts here a lot better, actually. The real Henry Ford had a streak of anti-semitism that matched Julius Streicher- like Streicher, Ford even published a newsletter complaining about Jews called The Eternal Jew. The half-American head of the Hitler Youth, Baldur von Shirac, claimed that he got his hatred of Jews from Henry Ford. In the 30s Ford supported Father Coughlin's hateful tirades. At the outbreak of World War II Ford refused to aid in the war effort, arguing that we were on the wrong side. Great guy, huh?
But yeah, in terms of this list he was. His promotion of the automobile as a device not for the rich but for the middle classes and below completely changed every aspect of American society. His sponsorship of assembly line mass production changed American industry and paved the way for decades of prosperity, as did his voluntary decision to pay his workers a higher wage so that they could afford to buy his product. These factors, all hugely important, make Henry Ford the greatest businessman in our history.
I was also thinking of Ford during the debate over my last pick of Steve Jobs. Like Gates and Jobs, Henry Ford did not create the automobile, nor did he design the assembly line. But he was their greatest promotor, and for that he will be remembered for centuries to come. I feel like Gates and Jobs are the same when it comes to the computer age.
Up next: The other Purdue graduate on this list, along with John Wooden...
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