Run It Up
Footballguy
If the Pats go 15-1 I would be shocked, I had already considered the game lost to the Broncos even after the thrashing the Pats gave them last year.
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Tom Brady MVP? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter PatsFanCT
- Start date
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Lol indeed. Do you think the first QB in NFL history to get to 100 more wins than losses starts losing accuracy when throwing to rookies, or maybe they aren't catching passes, they aren't running the right routes, if they are running the right routes they aren't running crisp routes, they are not getting the separation a veteran would have in those situations? Do you put Edelman's receiving skills above Demaryius Thomas, Wes Welker, Eric Decker, and Julius Thomas or do you think maybe, just maybe Brady has something to do with his 79% catch percentage especially given that Edelman will be keyed on by defenses as being the only viable receiving option on his team?
Edelman leads the league for Rec% for WR/TE with at least 35 targets, I guess that makes him the best WR in the league (according to your logic).
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moleculo
Footballguy
eta: let me bold you the relevant part above, as your reading comprehension seems to need some attention.
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moleculo
Footballguy
Brady nuthuggers> is there any possible circumstance, any statistical metric, any feat to be performed on a football field, where you would concede that Manning might be having a better season than Brady?
At this point, I can't even comprehend any QB playing better than Manning. I've never seen anyone doing better in my lifetime, never. Perfection. There is literally no possible way he could be more valuable.
At this point, I can't even comprehend any QB playing better than Manning. I've never seen anyone doing better in my lifetime, never. Perfection. There is literally no possible way he could be more valuable.
- undisputed catalyst of an undefeated team? check
- setting team scoring records? check. Most points thru first 4 games since NFL merger, Broncos franchise record for points in a game.
- lots of TD passes? check, he has > 2X as many TD passes as a league average starting QB.
- lots of passing yards? check, he leads the league despite not playing in 4th quarter last week and shutting down the passing game early in the previous two games.
- limiting interceptions? check. How about zero?
- making every possible pass? check. 50 yard bomb to Decker last week, excellent touch on the fade routes,etc.
- elevating the play of his teammates? check - anyone heard of Julius Thomas before this season.
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moleculo
Footballguy
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I made some posts on this thread earlier--and there are some guys that are ballin this year. If I were to rank my top 4 mvp players based on the "eye test" alone--I would personally put them in this order:
1. Peyton
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Brady
4. Richard Sherman
I actually had Brady at 2 before the Monday night game--but then Jimmy Graham happened--again. Long term--I probably see the MVP really materializing to a 2 horse race between Manning and Brady--but you never know what happens as the season progresses. If the colts continue their winning ways--I could see Andrew Luck crawling into the race as well.
1. Peyton
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Brady
4. Richard Sherman
I actually had Brady at 2 before the Monday night game--but then Jimmy Graham happened--again. Long term--I probably see the MVP really materializing to a 2 horse race between Manning and Brady--but you never know what happens as the season progresses. If the colts continue their winning ways--I could see Andrew Luck crawling into the race as well.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Thanks for stating the obvious, we can look at the NFL fantasy leader board, you aren't bringing anything new to the discussion. You tried to state Manning's receivers were handicapping him just as much as Brady's receivers. I refute that, and then you bold a different part of your post, the part that has been repeated ad naseum in this thread and it is not the point of the thread whether you enjoy drooling over Manning's fantasy production or not.
I made the main point of my post big and loud since you seem to be hard of reading.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
He could win a title his defense didn't have to carry him to while he tried his hardest to choke it away.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Yeah let's post about rushing stats and ignore the fact that Geno Smith has twice as many interceptions than he does TD's and blame this on the fact that the Jets defense isn't as good as the Patriots defense. There's a reason this post was ignored.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Ah, so NOW stats matter? Can we get a ruling on when we can look at stats, and when we can only look at W/L or opponents?
Actually, I think I've got it. We can only look at stats when it benefits Brady. We can only base most of our argument on W/L or opponent comparison when it benefits Brady.
I just want to make sure I have the bounds of our debate firmly in place.
moleculo
Footballguy
1. so no, there is nothing possible that manning could do that would make him superior to Brady in your eyes. No sense continuing, but I've been fished this far, might has well keep going.
2. I will acknowledge that Mannings receivers catch a higher percentage of targets...happy? You caught me in a little hyperbole, wouldn't be the first time, wont be the last time.
That being said, it is also true that Mannings receivers and Brady's receivers are dropping passes at an equal rate (source). If a drop is defined as a pass that hits the receiver in the hands, one must conclude that Brady has had more passes not make it the intended target, right?
case in point:
Brady: 158 attempts- 93 completions - 12 drops- 12 passes defended = 41 pass attempts that did not make it to the receiver.
Manning: 166 attempts -117 completions - 12 drops -11 passes defended = 16 pass attempts that did not make it to receiver.
Now, you can say that that the receivers ran the wrong routes or Brady is trying to stick it into impossible windows, but honestly that isn't really painting Brady in a good picture either. I'm not one of these guys that just looks at box scores - Mannings success has everything to do with pre-snap reads. He is finding wide-open receivers because he is audibling around blitzes, finding holes in zones, and exploiting mismatches. He's making it look easy.
When you see Manning hitting wide open WR's, I think you are assuming it's because they are great route runners, or maybe just too big to beat with bump-and-run or whatever...fact of the matter is they are open because pre-snap, Manning is putting his 10 teammates in the best possible position to win.
watch this TD (0:12). A great play by Welker, getting the TD because he ran a sick route? No, this is all Manning. He recognized a blitzing CB, and set the play up to create a pick off of the guy covering Welker and clearing out everyone else, leaving Welker wide open on the goal line. Explanation here.
watch the TD @ 0:44: Recognized single coverage on DT, made a world class throw, dropping it exactly where it needed to be. File this under exploiting a mismatch.
how about the TD @ 1:23? a great play be design, putting Welker in the backfield in the red-zone. This is just a good example of the Manning offense being easy and WR's being wide open.
1:09: another case of a blitzing CB, where Manning hit the vacated receiver for an easy TD. This happened vs Baltimore as well.
The takeaway here should be that Manning is having a great statistical season because his WR's are frequently open, thereby reducing risk of throwing into a nearly impossible window. They are frequently open because Manning puts them in position to succeed, based on pre-snap reads.
Having good WR's helps, sure, but don't fool yourself - it's all Manning.
Run It Up
Footballguy
There is no debate... as its been established in this thread already. This thread was always at least two arguments.
If anyone thinks another player is playing better than Peyton they are wrong. By virtue of skill, experience and situation, Peyton is on another planet right now - why anyone ever thought we were discussing something as simple as reading a box score is beyond me.
If anyone thinks that the Broncos would be worse off without Peyton than the Pats without Brady right now, I disagree.
If anyone thinks another player is playing better than Peyton they are wrong. By virtue of skill, experience and situation, Peyton is on another planet right now - why anyone ever thought we were discussing something as simple as reading a box score is beyond me.
If anyone thinks that the Broncos would be worse off without Peyton than the Pats without Brady right now, I disagree.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I read through this and it seems like you're making the opposite case. Your case is that Manning knows where to throw the ball, so it's all Manning. But the receivers have to know where to go.
That's exactly the problem that New England's having right now - Brady knows where the ball COULD go if he had receivers who knew how to adjust, and he knows where the ball is SUPPOSED to go based on their dumbed down gameplan, but the receivers aren't even doing that. That's exactly why he was so frustrated on that Dobson play a couple weeks ago. He made the right presnap read, but the receiver didn't.
The benefit Manning has right now is that everyone is well versed in the playbook, everyone is talented enough to go where they're supposed to go, and they've got a good blocking back, a good tight end, a quick and highly intelligent slot guy, a big outside guy with speed in Thomas, and a big guy like Decker on the opposite side. Everyone knows where they're supposed to go, and everyone is good enough to get there. Yes, the QB has to make the presnap read, but the thing you seem to be ignoring is that the receivers have to make the SAME presnap read or the play doesn't work.
That doesn't mean Manning isn't doing great things, and it doesn't mean that the MVP award will actually go to Brady. A lot of this is just fun hyperbole to watch you guys go nutty defending Manning. But posts like yours - I could almost think you actually believe that Manning just happened to get much better when he added Welker and Thomas to his offense, and Brady just happened to get worse when losing Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, and also losing their replacements in Amendola and Vereen. That's a silly position to take, but I'm pretty sure you know that.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Of the 5 undefeated teams out there, I would rank Brady 5th best QB option from those teams in terms of MVP balloting. As stated earlier, it's way too early to be discussing this, but Manning so far should be THE ONLY person in the conversation (if the season ended today).
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
If you read nothing more than the title of this thread and glanced at the QB ratings of the undefeated teams without taking into account the strength (or lack thereof) of the receivers being thrown to this post might have some merit. Manning being MVP for the first quarter of the 2013 season is not being debated nor is the order of the QB rating statistics for the aforementioned QBs.
This is a good example of the typical fantasy footballers interpretation of who is a good QB,
"what kind of stats has he put up in the past 4 games"
since that is all that matters to you because you are trying to look at this in a vacuum and ignoring the fact that 80% of Brady's eligible receivers are in their first year in the NFL.
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Run It Up
Footballguy
What kind of metric are you using? Of the 4-0 teams even with the garbage that Brady is playing with hes still outperforming Alex Smith and Russell Wilson.
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moleculo
Footballguy
so this disconnect here is that it's not a pre-snap read, sight adjustment. Thats' the McDaniels offense. I saw plenty of it running here in Denver with Orton having some success; I have at least a passing familiarity of how it is supposed to work and I understand your point about a QB and WR need to be on the same page; when they are not, good things don't happen,
That's not the Manning offense. The Manning offense is get to the line, use the hard count to get the defense to commit, and then re-route the WR to take advantage of whatever it is the D is trying to do. It's not a function of Manning and Welker seeing the same thing and Welker knowing where he is supposed to go based on how the D plays him, it's a function of Manning re-directing Welker to where he needs to go.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
My vote is for Steve Gostkowski. Nails in FGs this season and the league leader in points. Take away 41 points from the Patriots and they are sunk.
Minus Gostkowski:
BUF 21 NEP 12 LOSS
NYJ 10 NEP 6 LOSS
NEP 12 TPA 3 WIN
ATL 23 NEP 18 LOSS
Suck it, Brady.
Minus Gostkowski:
BUF 21 NEP 12 LOSS
NYJ 10 NEP 6 LOSS
NEP 12 TPA 3 WIN
ATL 23 NEP 18 LOSS
Suck it, Brady.
Run It Up
Footballguy
moleculo
Footballguy
It is a silly point which, of course, is why I didn't make it.Jojo the circus boy said:bostonfred said:
speaking of being obtuse - are you willing to answer the direct question I posed above:
is there any possible circumstance, any statistical metric, any feat to be performed on a football field, where you would concede that Manning might be having a better season than Brady?
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Read my last post, this is not up for debate.It is a silly point which, of course, is why I didn't make it.speaking of being obtuse - are you willing to answer the direct question I posed above:Jojo the circus boy said:bostonfred said:
is there any possible circumstance, any statistical metric, any feat to be performed on a football field, where you would concede that Manning might be having a better season than Brady?
Run It Up
Footballguy
Who here is saying the contrary? Seriously, has anyone even suggested that?It is a silly point which, of course, is why I didn't make it.Jojo the circus boy said:bostonfred said:
speaking of being obtuse - are you willing to answer the direct question I posed above:
is there any possible circumstance, any statistical metric, any feat to be performed on a football field, where you would concede that Manning might be having a better season than Brady?
moleculo
Footballguy
well, given the title reading "Tom Brady MVP?" and the argument seemingly being posed that Brady deserves consideration because he has been moderately successful despite being handicapped by poor receiver play, it makes me believe that some think Brady is having a better season, even if the box scores don't demonstrate it.Who here is saying the contrary? Seriously, has anyone even suggested that?It is a silly point which, of course, is why I didn't make it.Jojo the circus boy said:bostonfred said:
speaking of being obtuse - are you willing to answer the direct question I posed above:
is there any possible circumstance, any statistical metric, any feat to be performed on a football field, where you would concede that Manning might be having a better season than Brady?
I don't believe that anyone is arguing that Manning is doing better statistically. I do believe that some think that Brady is doing better with what he has to work with than Manning is doing with what he has to work with.
Run It Up
Footballguy
You recognize that but keep droning on and on about something no one is contesting.well, given the title reading "Tom Brady MVP?" and the argument seemingly being posed that Brady deserves consideration because he has been moderately successful despite being handicapped by poor receiver play, it makes me believe that some think Brady is having a better season, even if the box scores don't demonstrate it.Who here is saying the contrary? Seriously, has anyone even suggested that?It is a silly point which, of course, is why I didn't make it.Jojo the circus boy said:bostonfred said:
speaking of being obtuse - are you willing to answer the direct question I posed above:
is there any possible circumstance, any statistical metric, any feat to be performed on a football field, where you would concede that Manning might be having a better season than Brady?
I don't believe that anyone is arguing that Manning is doing better statistically. I do believe that some think that Brady is doing better with what he has to work with than Manning is doing with what he has to work with.
Most of us are discussing the merits of the their performances in comparison to each others relative situations. Peyton's being the holy grail of QB situations, elite defense, above average oline, elite receiving corp, cake schedule. The Patriots themselves aren't in the worst situation in the league as its been mentioned multiple times, having an above average oline and a great defense, but as far as Brady's QB situation its one of the worst and thats not disputable.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I think I better understand your point after this post, if your point is in fact that you are right about Manning even though you don't actually understand what Manning is doing with his receivers.moleculo said:
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Huh? Why are people posting that Manning's receivers drop passes at the same rate as Brady's receivers inferring that it's not the receivers fault for the lack of record breaking TD and passing yards production by the QB, while totally ignoring their lack of crisp and accurate route running due to the fact that you know, 4 out of 5 of them are rookies?
Wrigley
Footballguy
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Glad to see you are paying attention to the issues in this thread and not regurgitating the thread title over and over and over again...
Run It Up
Footballguy
Run It Up
Footballguy
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Bro, we get it. You're insanely jealous of Brady's lifestyle. It's OK, pretty much everyone is. Who wouldn't want 3 SB rings and a supermodel wife? You don't have to be such a hater. It's a bad look.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Can this thread just end, he was never in the discussion. It didn't matter if he came out and threw for 400 and 5 today or 200 and 0.
He is still a great quarterback and he had a horrible game. They all have horrible games from time to time. End of story.
He is still a great quarterback and he had a horrible game. They all have horrible games from time to time. End of story.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Seems like a dumb conclusion when the contrary is what the discussion has been based on thus far.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
I'm ready to bump him down a spot or two.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
On the other hand, the Peyton Manning honorary tribute parade may be put on hold just in case Drew Brees continues to outperform him week-in/week-out.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I think based on their teams performances--Andrew luck may have just leapfrogged Brady in the top 5 for mvp list so far this year. As of now--I have peyton, graham, andrew luck over brady.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Rivers isn't getting enough love either. Both have been criminally underrated this year and in this thread.
Jamaal Charles as well.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Rivers probably isn't get much love because despite his 4 TDs in Week 1, his pick six was integral in them blowing that game to Houston.
