Tom Brady Well Behind Schedule (1 Viewer)

[JuniorNB]

No, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Bonds' legacy took a hit, why wouldn't Brady's?

Probably because they're not remotely the same thing.

Both benefitted from cheating to gain an unfair advantage over their opponent. That certainly is 'remotely the same thing'.

Belichick? To an extent. Brady? No. It's just the way it is, and I'm sorry that you can't swallow that.

Belichick is much more responsible for the cheating, but both equally benefited from it.Before last season's gaudy stats, Brady was only a good qurterback if you went solely by the numbers. Brady was mentioned with the Montana, Elway, Unitas-types due in large part to the Super Bowl victories. Once they came into question, so did the legacy.Bonds' cheating makes most people look suspiciously at his home record, but it doesn't make them think that he wasn't already a great player when he chose to do it naturally. Same goes for Brady. The fact that his three 3-point Super Bowl victories may very-well been the result of some illegal scouting doesn't take away from teh fact that he still played very well in clutch situations and put up some nice stats.He's still a Hall of Fame QB, but he's no longer in any top five discussions. In fact, if Cassel improves at the same pace that he improved aqs the season went on, Brady's legacy may continue to decline. Think Priest Holmes after Larry Johnson showed that it was a system-thing.

 

[treat88]

Not to anyone who feels like being objective it isn't.

Listen to me very carefully in case my meandering post before this was too long for you to read: your opinion doesn't matter in any meaningful way with respect to Brady's legacy. You and I can F5 until we're blue in the face, but that doesn't change his "legacy" - turn on the NFL Network, open up the sports page, or go to ESPN.com. Brady is in the discussion as one of the all-time greats, and nothing that has happened, or internet messageboards, can change that.

Belichick? To an extent. Brady? No. It's just the way it is, and I'm sorry that you can't swallow that.

Wrong. Dead wrong.Every time Brady's name comes up in any discussion of greatest QB's of all time the cheating issue will ALWAYS be mentioned. Sorry you can't swallow that in return. It's true.

It doesn't matter if it's objective or even accurate. It will always be there as a matter of perception to a vast majority of the informed population.

The fact that it will always be a topic when discussing Brady, the Pats, or Belichick is the definition of a tainted legacy.

your opinion doesn't matter in any meaningful way with respect to Brady's legacy.

This sentiment cuts both ways. The topic will always be there, regardless of your personal opinion. It's just a fact.

 

[switz]

He's still a Hall of Fame QB, but he's no longer in any top five discussions. In fact, if Cassel improves at the same pace that he improved as the season went on, Brady's legacy may continue to decline.

Brady makes the HOF like Aikman did, on the basis of SB wins, not on the basis of being a great QB. Brady is a good-but-not-great QB in a great system. Last year he had a remarkable, record setting season, because his coaches decided they wanted to break records to take away the tarnish of spygate. He had one of the greatest WRs of all time, and threw the ball 578 times. That's 81 more times than the previous record holder for a mere 300 yard, 1 TD difference. If you told me it took a QB 81 pass attempts to put up 300 yards and a TD, I wouldn't think he was very good.

Think Priest Holmes after Larry Johnson showed that it was a system-thing.

Let's see... Larry Johnson was a first round pick, highly touted coming out of college, expected to do great things, who has had a total of 2 1,000 yard seasons to prove it was a system that allowed an Undrafted FA to put up 4 1,000 yard plus seasons across two DIFFERENT teams???? Holmes TDs may have been a product of the system, but not his running ability. His first season playing in BAL, he had 4 100+ yard games, one of which was over 200 yards. It wasn't a system thing.On the other hand, when a 7th round pick comes in and outperforms you in the game you got knocked out of, then goes on to put up better stats than you did in your first year starting, and stats near your averages across your career... then you give credit to the system. It's not like Cassell is this incredibly talented QB, highly touted out of college.

 

[Steelers4Life]

Matt Cassel's stats from the last 8 games of 2008 extrapolated over an entire season compare favorably to every season of Brady's career except his 2007 season. Brady had a record breaking season, but it's the only time in his career that he's done anything like it and the Patriots obviously did everything they could to give him that kind of year. He's a great QB because of what he's accomplished, but Cassel stepped in after not playing much since high school and it took him half a season to produce numbers in line with all but one year of a future Hall of Famer's career so far.

Could Cassel sustain it over a number of years? Who knows. Maybe he was just a flash in the pan for half of a season, but I would've thought if that were the case, he'd have started off hot and then faded. Instead, he got better as the year went on. Much better.

Not sure what that means, really, but I find it interesting.

 

[TitusIII]

The Pats offensive system isn't Texas Tech-esque, but QB's certainly appear to benefit greatly from it. Brady is, and always will be a HOF QB, but questions deserve to be raised...

 

[Bri]

Only Pats fans and Brady lovers refuse to see that he was merely a product of a very good system.

I actually heard an interview with Weis about this recently. The Pats system was changed from Bledsoe to Brady to better suit Brady. Weis was in the pressbox for Bledsoe and would be on the field for Brady so that he could talk him thru things. I think he said something like this last bowl game was the first time in the pressbox since. Weis has a bad knee or something wrong with his legs and needed canes to walk so for ND's bowl game he was up there. Well the Pats felt Brady was a different QB with better feet but also much less experience, yet great study habits and while he wanted to do everything, they had to pull the reins in some. In time, it was worked to Brady's strengths. Too many people think coaches don't change up. Is Kerry running the same running plays Vince Young did? Brodie Croyle-->Thigpen? of course not, I mean some plays sure but not every one.Then there's giant Moss being compared to 5-8 to 5-11 WRs before him. Think there's more lob passes or passes/quick routes to utilize his height? Then there's how BB(like any smart coach) takes what's given to him and has his QB do so. Maybe they planned long routes to Watson but they're not going to turn down a wide open 5 yarder to him.With Weis the Pats threw a ton(too many) of quick short almost screen passes to the WR almost at the LOS. Snap N throw it. Without Weis, not so much.I'm almost confident I disagree with you that Brady is a product of the system but, please define this system first and answer another Q-Can the system be changed for Cassel?BTW might be worth googling for that interview I'd figure someone will have the transcript of it. I enjoyed it, maybe you will too.

 

[David Yudkin]

The Pats offensive system isn't Texas Tech-esque, but QB's certainly appear to benefit greatly from it. Brady is, and always will be a HOF QB, but questions deserve to be raised...

Put Moss, Welker, and multiple Pro Bowl lineman on a team and an average QB should have decent numbers (see Cassel, Matt). Put a top QB with those guys and you would expect exceptional if not record breaking numbers (see Brady, Tom).Anyone remotely trying to compare any Patriot numbers from 2007 and 2008 to any earlier seasons just doesn't get it. Other than Brady, almost the entire offense had turned over including the coordinator. They are not remotely similar, so those trying to suggest that Cassel's numbers were on par with earlier Brady numbers are totally missing that the two teams wore the same jerseys but were completely different.

 

[Texas Football]

Like him or not, it'd be a shame for football fans to miss out on multiple years of Tom Brady's career.

Why?After this season, I don't think anyone could convince me Brady was anything special as a QB. Sure, he had a GREAT season, playing the Bills, Jets, and Miami twice each, last year with Randy Moss, arguably the best WR talent-wise in the history of the game to throw to.But Matt Cassel stepped in this year, and toward the end of this season looked as good as Brady ever has. Not unless you believe that Matt Cassel's college coaches, and every single Pro Scout is a complete and utter idiot, then you have to agree that Cassel is really nothing special as a QB. Yet in his first season starting, on a much weaker team than Brady's first season, Cassel put up good numbers, and led the team to a good record, despite their near miss of the playoffs.I don't think the Pats are really pressed to have Brady return, or to franchise Cassel. They could bring in any QB and he'd flourish in that system.

Quincy Carter?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

As previously mentioned by others this is a monumental waste of time; you have convinced yourself that Brady isn't very good and you aren't going to let ovewhelming facts or logic get in the way.

And yet I can't help myself....

Like him or not, it'd be a shame for football fans to miss out on multiple years of Tom Brady's career.

Why?After this season, I don't think anyone could convince me Brady was anything special as a QB.

This maybe true, but sadly, rather than Brady it says so much more about you, your lack of knowledge of pro football and your well documented bias re Brady.

Sure, he had a GREAT season, playing the Bills, Jets, and Miami twice each, last year with Randy Moss, arguably the best WR talent-wise in the history of the game to throw to.

Lol, you cherry pick to the nth degree because you have no choice, but as Yudkin has already pointed out, NE's schedule last year was not an easy one and certainly more difficult than Manning's record setting year and infinitely harder than this years schedule.

But Matt Cassel stepped in this year, and toward the end of this season looked as good as Brady ever has.

Ummm, no, he did look good toward the end of the year, but as good as Brady ever has? Hardly, there are many examples, but exhibit A. might be NE vs Pit 07 & vs 08. Did you see either of those games?

Not unless you believe that Matt Cassel's college coaches, and every single Pro Scout is a complete and utter idiot, then you have to agree that Cassel is really nothing special as a QB.

This is the same old, doesn't hold water, simpleton type logic you base so much of your nonsense on. Many others would not be nearly as pre-convinced as you are that Cassel isn't good (or potential to be) and even fewer would agree with your ridiculous premise that because a player wasn't very good 4 years ago he couldn't possibly be any good today

Yet in his first season starting, on a much weaker team than Brady's first season,

ROFLMAO, how could you possibly try and claim that NE's 01 team was much stronger than NE's 08 team? Even on the surface it is laughable, but on closer examination, (as it applies to the subject at hand, NEs offense in 01 vs 08) it is utterly absurd that you would even sugeest it, again your assertion has little or no basis in fact or reality.

Cassel put up good numbers, and led the team to a good record, despite their near miss of the playoffs.

I don't think the Pats are really pressed to have Brady return, or to franchise Cassel. They could bring in any QB and he'd flourish in that system.

Again, no, they could not bring in any QB and that is yet another silly assertion.You won't (can't) answer these questions, but I will ask them anyway.

Please enlighten us on your knowledge of the Patriots system; why is it so darn successful? Why in the wide world of sports don't other teams run similar systems? You can use any any old QB, right? Heck, why don't the teams with good qb's simply run NEs system?

Do the Colts use a system?

Could any QB flourish in the Colts system? If not why?

Could you explain the major differences between the Colts system and NEs and explain in a reasonably rational & coherent manner why Manning is so successful in it, but Brady most certainly would not be?

 

[treat88]

As previously mentioned by others this is a monumental waste of time; you have convinced yourself that Brady isn't very good and you aren't going to let ovewhelming facts or logic in the way.

I agree. The guy is a great QB by any measure.It is a shame that the cheating issue will always be attached to his name.

 

[Uber]

As previously mentioned by others this is a monumental waste of time; you have convinced yourself that Brady isn't very good and you aren't going to let ovewhelming facts or logic in the way.

I agree. The guy is a great QB by any measure.It is a shame that the cheating issue will always be attached to his name.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

As previously mentioned by others this is a monumental waste of time; you have convinced yourself that Brady isn't very good and you aren't going to let ovewhelming facts or logic in the way.

And yet I can't help myself....

Like him or not, it'd be a shame for football fans to miss out on multiple years of Tom Brady's career.

Why?After this season, I don't think anyone could convince me Brady was anything special as a QB.

This maybe true, but sadly it says much more about you, your lack of knowledge of pro football and your well documented bias re Brady.

Sure, he had a GREAT season, playing the Bills, Jets, and Miami twice each, last year with Randy Moss, arguably the best WR talent-wise in the history of the game to throw to.

Lol, you cherry pick to the nth degree because you have no choice, but as Yudkin has already pointed out, NE's schedule last year was not an easy one and certainly more difficult than Manning's record setting year and infinitely harder than this years schedule.

But Matt Cassel stepped in this year, and toward the end of this season looked as good as Brady ever has.

Ummm, no, he did look good toward the end of the year, but as good as Brady ever has? Hardly, there are many examples, but exhibit A. would probably be NE vs Pit 07 & vs 08. Did you see either of those games?

Not unless you believe that Matt Cassel's college coaches, and every single Pro Scout is a complete and utter idiot, then you have to agree that Cassel is really nothing special as a QB.

This is the same old, doesn't hold water, simpleton type logic you base so much of your nonsense on. Most would not be nearly as pre-convinced as you are that Cassel isn't good (or potential to be) and even fewer would agree with your premise that because a player wasn't very good 4 years ago he couldn't possibly be any good today

Yet in his first season starting, on a much weaker team than Brady's first season,

ROFLMAO, how could you possibly try and claim that NE's 01 team was much stronger than NE's 08 team? Even on the surface it is laughable and on closer examination, (as it applies to the subject at hand, NEs offense in 01 vs 08) it is an utterly absurd position with little basis in fact or reality.

Cassel put up good numbers, and led the team to a good record, despite their near miss of the playoffs.

I don't think the Pats are really pressed to have Brady return, or to franchise Cassel. They could bring in any QB and he'd flourish in that system.

Again, no, they could not bring in any QB and that is yet another silly assertion.You won't (can't) answer these questions, but I will ask them anyway.

Please enlighten us on your knowledge of the Patriots system; why is it so darn successful? Why in the wide world of sports don't other teams run similar systems? You can use any any old QB, right? Heck, why don't the teams with good qb's simply run NEs system?

Do the Colts use a system?

Could any QB flourish in the Colts system? If not why?

Could you explain the major differences between the Colts system and NEs and explain in a reasonably rational & coherent manner why Manning is so successful in it, but Brady most certainly would not be?

Lots of great points here, but remember you're just walking into a room with a bunch of guys who want to poke sticks in your eye as a Patriots / Brady / Belichick supporter....

 

[bostonfred]

Brady makes the HOF like Aikman did, on the basis of SB wins, not on the basis of being a great QB. Brady is a good-but-not-great QB in a great system. Last year he had a remarkable, record setting season, because his coaches decided they wanted to break records

This is why people call Belichick a genius. For some reason, no other coach in the NFL decides they want to break records.

 

[Why Me?]

It could be that the Pats are intentionally leaking the "he's behind schedule" stuff even if not true. this could then allow them to slap the franchise tag on Cassel "in good faith", then turn around and trade him when Brady is suddenly back on schedule. Remember, technically you are not allowed to franchise someone if you're intent is to trade him. It happens though, and this could all be part of a ruse to make it look more above board.

 

[Workhorse]

It could be that the Pats are intentionally leaking the "he's behind schedule" stuff even if not true. this could then allow them to slap the franchise tag on Cassel "in good faith", then turn around and trade him when Brady is suddenly back on schedule. Remember, technically you are not allowed to franchise someone if you're intent is to trade him. It happens though, and this could all be part of a ruse to make it look more above board.

That's been speculated by a few Boston area writers too.

 

[David Yudkin]

It could be that the Pats are intentionally leaking the "he's behind schedule" stuff even if not true. this could then allow them to slap the franchise tag on Cassel "in good faith", then turn around and trade him when Brady is suddenly back on schedule. Remember, technically you are not allowed to franchise someone if you're intent is to trade him. It happens though, and this could all be part of a ruse to make it look more above board.

That's been speculated by a few Boston area writers too.

Still doesn't add up from the people I know. Curran is not citing anyone from the team but people within the NFL league administration. The Pats have exactly the same options for Cassel no matter what the status of Brady is.

 

[Workhorse]

One key stat that people seem to be missing here in the Brady v. Cassel debate:

Brady was never sacked more than 26 times in a season, since 2004.

Cassel was sacked 47 times this year. Behind the same offensive line.

Was the O-Line protection great for years and suddenly stunk out the joint this year? With the same scheme and the same linemen? Or did Brady's knack for eluding rushers in the pocket and quick decision-making make the line look better than it really was?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

It could be that the Pats are intentionally leaking the "he's behind schedule" stuff even if not true. this could then allow them to slap the franchise tag on Cassel "in good faith", then turn around and trade him when Brady is suddenly back on schedule. Remember, technically you are not allowed to franchise someone if you're intent is to trade him. It happens though, and this could all be part of a ruse to make it look more above board.

That's been speculated by a few Boston area writers too.

Still doesn't add up from the people I know. Curran is not citing anyone from the team but people within the NFL league administration. The Pats have exactly the same options for Cassel no matter what the status of Brady is.

I don't think it was intentionally leaked, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely. Yes, the Pats have the same options regardless of Bradys status, but if Brady were considered to be completely healthy NE would be violating the spirit of the Franchise tag if they used it on Cassel with the intent of trading him. Yes, they could do that, but the PA and league would not be amused. However, if Brady's injury status is more uncertain then there is little anyone can say about NE franchising Cassel to protect themselves. Should Brady then prove to be healthy and NE then turns around and trades Cassel for a 1st and a ?, it is all kosher.That of course is best case scenario; I don't even want to think about worst case scenario..................

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

No, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Bonds' legacy took a hit, why wouldn't Brady's?

Probably because they're not remotely the same thing.

your right... they aren't the same thing. Bonds is one man but what the Patriots did involved an entire organization.

 

[parrot]

No, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Bonds' legacy took a hit, why wouldn't Brady's?

Probably because they're not remotely the same thing.

your right... they aren't the same thing. Bonds is one man but what the Patriots did involved an entire organization.

Really? It took the entire organization to hold a video camera?

 

[JuniorNB]

No, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Bonds' legacy took a hit, why wouldn't Brady's?

Probably because they're not remotely the same thing.

your right... they aren't the same thing. Bonds is one man but what the Patriots did involved an entire organization.

Really? It took the entire organization to hold a video camera?

I don't think he's saying that the entire organization was holding the video camera or thought of the evil scheme, but I also am pretty sure that Belichick didn't say to Brady, "I know whether or not they'll be blitzing on this play, but I'm not going to tell you".

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

No, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Bonds' legacy took a hit, why wouldn't Brady's?

Probably because they're not remotely the same thing.

your right... they aren't the same thing. Bonds is one man but what the Patriots did involved an entire organization.

Really? It took the entire organization to hold a video camera?

No... just one guy. Maybe 'entire organization' was a bit strong, but if this 'data' was shared to the offense and defense (and reportedly it was) then YES it 'involves' most of the team.... and that includes Tom Brady.Bottom line... even being objective... it taints his legacy. Uber claims that every story involving Tom Brady across the family of networks and the NFL Network doesn't mention spygate. This is true... but the people who really care enough about football to study it all year around are AWARE of it. It IS in the back of their mind. Like it or not... it affects the way I look at everyone who was on those teams. I hate the Pats its TRUE but I like some of their players. Tedy Bruschi was a favorite of mine... Ty Law was another... Vrabel far exceeded any of the potential that the Steelers thought he had...

I even respected Tom's ability to stay calm under pressure. He IS an ELITE QB but there will ALWAYS be that little voice in my head that wonders how big of an advantage some of that knowledge could be, ESPECIALLY when you play the same team twice in the same season.

On a completely unrelated note.... how funny is it that his kid's initials are JET

Gotta love Bridget Moynahan!

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Going from the greatest offense of all time to an average one makes some people think Cassell is as good as Brady?

 

[JuniorNB]

Going from the greatest offense of all time to an average one makes some people think Cassell is as good as Brady?

I don't think anyone made that claim. Also, if you want to use last year's offense as the Brady measuring stick, please don't ignore all the cheating-talk in the dozen or so posts before yours.Brady had eight years while Cassel's had one.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Make no mistake, I ignored more posts than those.

 

[bostonfred]

I think another way of looking at it is to compare Tom Brady's 2001 numbers with Cassel's. Looking at their first 15 full games (excluding the part games when they came in due to injury, and including one playoff game from Brady to compare apples to apples):

Brady: 279/460, 60.6%, 3110 yards, 19 TDs, 13 INTs

Cassel: 314/498, 63%, 3541 yards, 22 TDs, 11 INTs

Now, considering that switz considers Brady's 50 TD, undefeated regular season, also known as the greatest single season by a quarterback in the NFL, to be an outlier for a good but not great quarterback, let's examine the fact that Brady's numbers with Welker and Moss increased by roughly 7.1% passing, 1300 yards, 26 TDs, with 4 fewer INTs. Clearly Cassel's numbers were a little better than Brady's 2001 numbers, but the fact is that they're not even close to good enough to justify the surrounding talent.

A more accurate comparison might be between Cassel and Manning's rookie seasons. Both Manning and Cassell had the benefit of a hall of fame wide receiver behind them. We'll forgive Manning the benefit of working all offseason with the starting team, and continuosly starting for the previous seven years, while Cassel did not have those benefits, because Cassel had an opportunity to hold a clipboard as a third stringer. Here's their numbers:

Cassel: 314/498, 63%, 3541 yards, 22 TDs, 11 INTs

Manning: 309/540, 57%, 3514 yards, 24 TDs, 26 INTs

As you can see, Cassel threw 5 more completions and 27 more yards on 50 fewer passes, threw for roughly the same number of TDs, and threw fewer than half as many picks. And that's before we factor in the difference between 11-5 and 3-13.

Brady >>>> Cassel > Manning.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Manning could have mastered "throw to Welker until you run out of downs" probably.

 

[eoMMan]

Too many Brady/Cassel comparison posts to see if this has been posted:

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/footbal...&position=4

Differing stories on Tom Brady don’t compute

Heads up on two tales

By Steve Buckley

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - Updated 1d 1h ago

+ Recent Articles + Recent Blog Entries Boston Herald General Sports Columnist

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FOXBORO - Are you ready for some football drama?

If so, keep an eye on your New England Patriots [team stats] during their now-active postseason.

What we have here is a case of dueling news stories involving the health of quarterback Tom Brady [stats]. It began with former Pats beat reporter Tom Curran, now in the employ of NBCSports.com, writing that Brady’s recovery from his season-ending left knee injury is “well behind schedule,” this because of an infection that set in following the surgery, and that an additional surgery could jeopardize Brady’s 2009 season.

And then Peter King, reporting for NBC’s “Football Night in America,” put it out there that his sources tell him Brady is actually ahead of schedule. King then added some intrigue to the dispute by noting that his sources wouldn’t be surprised if “. . . the Patriots might be placing a story that could end up getting them more for Matt Cassel in the offseason when he becomes a free agent.”

What are we to make of this? Let’s begin with the fact that Curran and King are seasoned, well-traveled NFL reporters whose credentials are very much in order. They didn’t dredge this stuff up to bring some pizzazz to an otherwise slow news day. This being the last day of the regular season, with all kinds of postseason scenarios being played out, it’s not like either outlet was screaming for a Tom Brady angle to add some spice to the proceedings.

It boils down to this: Curran heard one story from well-placed people, and King heard another story from a different set of well-placed people.

Were it not for the case that it’s the New England Patriots [team stats] and Tom Brady we are talking about, that would be the end of it. But here’s where it gets complicated:

If Curran’s information is correct, it’s possible the Pats could lose Brady for the 2009 season.

If King’s story is correct, it’s possible the Patriots are spreading misinformation about the most important, most heralded player in the history of the franchise in order to help set the market for Brady’s 2008 replacement, the surprising Matt Cassel.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick, who held a 2008 postmortem with the media yesterday morning at Gillette Stadium, was in remarkably good spirits for a man whose team just went 11-5 yet failed to qualify for the playoffs.

But when asked about Brady, the coach was predictably vague.

“We spent all week getting ready for Buffalo,” he said. “And we’re bringing that to a closure today. All the other things, as relates to players, decisions, roster, so forth, schemes, all that, are things we’ll deal with in due course. I haven’t thought about (Brady’s health), and I don’t know any more than I knew yesterday. Those things will all come in time.”

Given these dueling stories about Brady, has the coach considered speaking to his quarterback to make sure everyone’s on the same page?

His response was to point out he sees Brady all the time, he talks with doctors and trainers, adding, “I don’t need to read a report and see what somebody else has to say.”

Know this about Brady: In addition to being the man who quarterbacked the Patriots to three Super Bowl championships in four seasons and who has led his team to the playoffs six times in seven seasons, including a loss to the Colts in the 2006 AFC Championship Game and, of course, a loss to the Giants in last season’s Super Bowl, he also happens to be the ultimate team player.

We know this to be true because that’s what the Patriots have always told us. Brady used to get the cool parking space because he was the first player to be show up in the workout room and the last to leave it. He is an A student when it comes to the team playbook, his homework always handed in on time. He is a locker room leader.

What does it mean, then, if it turns out the two camps - the Patriots [team stats] and Brady - are parceling out different versions of the quarterback’s health status? It’s OK for Pats fans to admire and respect Tom Brady [stats], just as it’s OK for them to admire and respect the entire Patriots player personnel team, including Scott Pioli and Belichick.

But while nobody’s asking you to take sides, be advised that we have two stories being submitted, and that the two stories, placed side by side, do not add up.

 

[bostonfred]

Manning could have mastered "throw to Welker until you run out of downs" probably.

I'm certain he could have, since that's really all he did with Harrison.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Yeah, Harrison's 59 catches that year were pretty nuts.

 

[bostonfred]

Yeah, Harrison's 59 catches that year were pretty nuts.

He was on pace for 80+ before getting injured, and had 115 the following year, so that really doesn't make it a case of oh, poor Peyton.

 

[JamesTheScot]

But one thing just didn't add up. In this copycat league... how come NOBODY else seemed to be able to game plan like the Patriots? Why couldn't anybody match their on field awareness? You could argue that it would take a few years to catch up to that type of 'intelligence' but it has been quite a few years and still nobody had been close... until now.

People can copycat playbooks, formations and even scouting methodology. But they can't copycat the analysis, critical thinking, insight or innate talent which leads to innovation. It could just be that BB is just smarter and more creative (right now) than any of his competition. There's often subtle but yet nonethless significant differences between the genuine article and an imitation.

Last year they blitzed everyone off the field with their incredible offense (thank you Randy & Wes). They had great weapons and an incredible offensive line. Their defense struggled because teams had to throw on them in order to keep up with their scoring machine.

That's just faulty reasoning. The prolific Pat's passing game didn't make their opponents' passing games more prolific. If the Pat's weren't susceptible to the pass, they'd be more likely to shut down their opponents passing game when their opponent became one dimensional because they wouldn't have to respect the run. They could pin their ears back and play the pass every down. The Pat's were just as susceptible to the pass when the scoreboard read 0-0 as they were when it read 35-10.

You can talk about how you think 'EVERYONE' did that sort of thing but the fact is nobody else has any egg on their face. No smoke has been found around any other organization regarding this sort of thing. It's a black mark for the league that the owners and GMs are more than willing to put behind them rather than deface the league.

You can't convince me that these events don't tarnish what Brady and the Pats have done in the last decade.

And you can't convince me that there wouldn't have been more anger and public denouncements from other teams and coaches if similar things don't go on routinely with other clubs. Ever wonder why the fans and journalists were about the only ones really outraged by spygate? There's a difference between the presumption of innocence and naivete. But if it helps you to sleep at night by refusing to believe your favorite club might be capable of bending the rules until they actually get caught red handed, good for you.

 

[switz]

I think another way of looking at it is to compare Tom Brady's 2001 numbers with Cassel's. Looking at their first 15 full games (excluding the part games when they came in due to injury, and including one playoff game from Brady to compare apples to apples):

Brady: 279/460, 60.6%, 3110 yards, 19 TDs, 13 INTs

Cassel: 314/498, 63%, 3541 yards, 22 TDs, 11 INTs

Now, considering that switz considers Brady's 50 TD, undefeated regular season, also known as the greatest single season by a quarterback in the NFL, to be an outlier for a good but not great quarterback, let's examine the fact that Brady's numbers with Welker and Moss increased by roughly 7.1% passing, 1300 yards, 26 TDs, with 4 fewer INTs. Clearly Cassel's numbers were a little better than Brady's 2001 numbers, but the fact is that they're not even close to good enough to justify the surrounding talent.

A more accurate comparison might be between Cassel and Manning's rookie seasons. Both Manning and Cassell had the benefit of a hall of fame wide receiver behind them. We'll forgive Manning the benefit of working all offseason with the starting team, and continuosly starting for the previous seven years, while Cassel did not have those benefits, because Cassel had an opportunity to hold a clipboard as a third stringer. Here's their numbers:

Cassel: 314/498, 63%, 3541 yards, 22 TDs, 11 INTs

Manning: 309/540, 57%, 3514 yards, 24 TDs, 26 INTs

As you can see, Cassel threw 5 more completions and 27 more yards on 50 fewer passes, threw for roughly the same number of TDs, and threw fewer than half as many picks. And that's before we factor in the difference between 11-5 and 3-13.

Brady >>>> Cassel > Manning.

I love how whenever Brady gets criticized, instead of trying to defend Brady, Pats fans always try to attack Manning. It's like the kids at school who would go around insulting others just to make themselves feel better. So Manning walking into the NFL, as a rookie, vastly different than HS or College as opposed to what bf wants to imply, throwing <60 passes to a WR in his second season = Cassel throwing to Moss and Welker this season? Nice spin.

Cassel's situation this season is far more comparable to Brady's early career... heck, Welker was running the same pass patterns that Troy Brown was running Brady's first season, and eerily similar results. Of course, Brady then had Glenn then Patten running fly routes, and hooked up with them about the same amount Cassel hooked up with Moss. No arguments that Moss is far and above a better WR than those two, but they were used similarly, with similar results.

What amazes me is that for all the people saying how great Brady is, Bledsoe still is the Pats passing leader, not Brady, with an 11 game difference.

BTW bf, I also like how in your world 80 = 111

In Indy, other QBs have had a chance to play in the Indy offense and haven't put up nearly as good stats as Manning has. But Cassel in his first start outperforms Brady in the same game. How do you explain Cassel outperforming Brady in the first game this season, coming off the bench?

It's pretty simple - in NE the system makes QBs play well. In Indy, Manning makes that offense work.

But this thread isn't about Manning versus Brady, that's been argued ad nauseum. It's about whether Brady is going to be healthy enough to play next season, and if the Patriots really need him to rush back if he isn't. After this season, I think it's pretty clear that the Patriots don't need Brady to win.

 

[AnonymousBob]

 

[jonessed]

Somehow we went from the condition of Brady's knee next year to a statistical comparison of Cassel's first season to Manning's first season

 

[Borat]

This might be the most laughable, but enjoyable, thread that I've ever read here. Laughable for all the ridiculous opinions; enjoyable because as a Patriots fan, it's fun to be the most hated, envied team in the league, even in a season where we missed the playoffs.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

No, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Bonds' legacy took a hit, why wouldn't Brady's?

Probably because they're not remotely the same thing.

your right... they aren't the same thing. Bonds is one man but what the Patriots did involved an entire organization.

Really? It took the entire organization to hold a video camera?

No... just one guy. Maybe 'entire organization' was a bit strong, but if this 'data' was shared to the offense and defense (and reportedly it was) then YES it 'involves' most of the team.... and that includes Tom Brady.Bottom line... even being objective... it taints his legacy. Uber claims that every story involving Tom Brady across the family of networks and the NFL Network doesn't mention spygate. This is true... but the people who really care enough about football to study it all year around are AWARE of it. It IS in the back of their mind. Like it or not... it affects the way I look at everyone who was on those teams. I hate the Pats its TRUE but I like some of their players. Tedy Bruschi was a favorite of mine... Ty Law was another... Vrabel far exceeded any of the potential that the Steelers thought he had...

I even respected Tom's ability to stay calm under pressure. He IS an ELITE QB but there will ALWAYS be that little voice in my head that wonders how big of an advantage some of that knowledge could be, ESPECIALLY when you play the same team twice in the same season.

On a completely unrelated note.... how funny is it that his kid's initials are JET

Gotta love Bridget Moynahan!

No bigger fan of Tom Brady than I and much as it pains me to admit you are correct in that spygate can't help but taint Bradys and the Patriots legacy. The only question is to what degree? The haters will take it to the nth degree while Pats fans will tend to all but dismiss it as much ado about nothing. The truth may lie somewhere in between and we will probably never no for certain how much effect taping signals may have had to do with any of the Patriots pre 2007 wins. Trying to look at it objectively one could say the method used was illegal and thats that; while on the other hand, stealing signals is not illegal and is part of the game. IMO, any coach worth a lick is going to take rudimentary steps to prevent their signals from being stolen (particularly when playing the same team twice in a season), thus rendering the practice almost worthless. I have mixed feelings about coach Cowhers abilities, but I do not think for a second he didn't assume the opposition, (Patriots included) were stealing his signals and take steps to negate any advantage the opposition may have been able to gain. I think he is on record as saying as much.

Regarding how much NE benefited from spygate in their big games and trying (however futilely) to discern one way or another is near impossible. FWIW, you can take a close look at their big wins on a case by case basis and try to glean something from it. IMO, there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest that spygate had little to do with their 01 SB win. Joey Porter can cry and whine all he wants, but NE won that AFCC primarily with defense and special teams (Steelers fans, pre spygate almost universally agreed with this). When Martz was asked about Spygates potential effect in SB 36 his reply was something to the effect "well it couldn't have helped them very much, they only had about 125 yards of offense through 3 quarters". Can anybody make a rational arguement that NE's games winning drive was likely aided by signal stealing? Is it even possible to run a 2 minute offense while your waiting for the other team to signal in their defense so you can decide what play your going to run?

Obviously there are a lot more games you could look at and I don't have time to go over all of them, maybe just for giggles it would be fun to have another thread(s) in the future focusing on particular years and games.

The spygate taint to some degree and the jealous haters to a very large degree will always be there; just as there will always be those who consider the Steeler dynasty forever tainted by their steroid use and even some who consider their latest SB victory tainted since it was in the opinion of many, the worst officiated SB ever and Seattle got screwed yaddy, yaddy. Mark Schlereth aside, how much did Denvers cheating on the salary cap have to do with their success? They obviously gained an illegal advantage and were penalized draft picks. People will make of it what they will depending on where they are sitting and aint nothing going to change that.

 

[JuniorNB]

As a Patriots fan, it's fun to be the most hated, envied team in the league.

One out of two ain't bad. Not sure where you draw that conclusion from. I hate Bonds for cheating, too, but I don't envy him.

I imagine you think it's because of the Pats success more than the cheating, but I don't remember hearing much Patriot-hate before last year, and they didn't win the Super Bowl last year.

Also, I didn't hate Pittsburgh in the 70's or the 49ers in the 80's, so 'hate and envy' don't neccessarily go along with winning.

I think most people's hatred for New England is more a combination of the cheating, Belichick's smug demeanor, and their fans' refusal to acknowledge that it puts their championships under a bit of suspicion. Of course, if it were my team who was caught, I'd be doing my best to downplay it, too.

 

[JuniorNB]

No, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Bonds' legacy took a hit, why wouldn't Brady's?

Probably because they're not remotely the same thing.

your right... they aren't the same thing. Bonds is one man but what the Patriots did involved an entire organization.

Really? It took the entire organization to hold a video camera?

No... just one guy. Maybe 'entire organization' was a bit strong, but if this 'data' was shared to the offense and defense (and reportedly it was) then YES it 'involves' most of the team.... and that includes Tom Brady.Bottom line... even being objective... it taints his legacy. Uber claims that every story involving Tom Brady across the family of networks and the NFL Network doesn't mention spygate. This is true... but the people who really care enough about football to study it all year around are AWARE of it. It IS in the back of their mind. Like it or not... it affects the way I look at everyone who was on those teams. I hate the Pats its TRUE but I like some of their players. Tedy Bruschi was a favorite of mine... Ty Law was another... Vrabel far exceeded any of the potential that the Steelers thought he had...

I even respected Tom's ability to stay calm under pressure. He IS an ELITE QB but there will ALWAYS be that little voice in my head that wonders how big of an advantage some of that knowledge could be, ESPECIALLY when you play the same team twice in the same season.

On a completely unrelated note.... how funny is it that his kid's initials are JET

Gotta love Bridget Moynahan!

No bigger fan of Tom Brady than I and much as it pains me to admit you are correct in that spygate can't help but taint Bradys and the Patriots legacy. The only question is to what degree? The haters will take it to the nth degree while Pats fans will tend to all but dismiss it as much ado about nothing. The truth may lie somewhere in between and we will probably never no for certain how much effect taping signals may have had to do with any of the Patriots pre 2007 wins. Trying to look at it objectively one could say the method used was illegal and thats that; while on the other hand, stealing signals is not illegal and is part of the game. IMO, any coach worth a lick is going to take rudimentary steps to prevent their signals from being stolen (particularly when playing the same team twice in a season), thus rendering the practice almost worthless. I have mixed feelings about coach Cowhers abilities, but I do not think for a second he didn't assume the opposition, (Patriots included) were stealing his signals and take steps to negate any advantage the opposition may have been able to gain. I think he is on record as saying as much.

Regarding how much NE benefited from spygate in their big games and trying (however futilely) to discern one way or another is near impossible. FWIW, you can take a close look at their big wins on a case by case basis and try to glean something from it. IMO, there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest that spygate had little to do with their 01 SB win. Joey Porter can cry and whine all he wants, but NE won that AFCC primarily with defense and special teams (Steelers fans, pre spygate almost universally agreed with this). When Martz was asked about Spygates potential effect in SB 36 his reply was something to the effect "well it couldn't have helped them very much, they only had about 125 yards of offense through 3 quarters". Can anybody make a rational arguement that NE's games winning drive was likely aided by signal stealing? Is it even possible to run a 2 minute offense while your waiting for the other team to signal in their defense so you can decide what play your going to run?

Obviously there are a lot more games you could look at and I don't have time to go over all of them, maybe just for giggles it would be fun to have another thread(s) in the future focusing on particular years and games.

The spygate taint to some degree and the jealous haters to a very large degree will always be there; just as there will always be those who consider the Steeler dynasty forever tainted by their steroid use and even some who consider their latest SB victory tainted since it was in the opinion of many, the worst officiated SB ever and Seattle got screwed yaddy, yaddy. Mark Schlereth aside, how much did Denvers cheating on the salary cap have to do with their success? They obviously gained an illegal advantage and were penalized draft picks. People will make of it what they will depending on where they are sitting and aint nothing going to change that.

Kudos to you, sir. You are about the only Patriots' fan on either of the football websites I frequent who admits that we just don't know how much the cheating helped or far it reached.Just like I can't sit here and act like I know for sure that they won because they cheated, we also can't assume that they didn't.

Hats off to you.

 

[switz]

let's examine the fact that Brady's numbers with Welker and Moss increased by roughly 7.1% passing, 1300 yards, 26 TDs, with 4 fewer INTs. Clearly Cassel's numbers were a little better than Brady's 2001 numbers, but the fact is that they're not even close to good enough to justify the surrounding talent.

Justify the surrounding talent? A WR can only do something with the ball in his hands, which is a result of the QB getting it there, and Cassel in his first season is not going to be as good as Brady in his 8th season. I'm not sure what your point is there. Cassel was asked to throw 5 fewer passes per game this season, than Brady did last season. The game plan was also more conservative and called for fewer downfield passes to protect him in his inexperience. In that situation, you can't expect the "surrounding talent" to have a huge impact on his stats either way.Here are the facts:

Wes Welker had 1 fewer catch for 10 fewer yards this season compared to last season.

Randy Moss had 30 fewer catches for 485 fewer yards (his yard per catch dropped a mere 0.6)

Gaffney had 2 more catches for 19 more yards, no drop off there.

Stallworth was missing this season, and so Cassel didn't have a third option that put up nearly 700 yards last year on 46 catches.

The difference between Stallworth and Moss between last season and this was 76 catches and 1182 yards. Cassel meanwhile threw 62 fewer passes this year than Brady did last season.

Interesting isn't it? Just imagine if Cassel had Stallworth, and the Pats called more downfield passing like last season. If you want to start talking about surrounding talent, you have to start wondering why Brady didn't do even more if he's so much better than Cassel.

Heck, Stallworth put up more yards and TDs in every single 16 game season he played in, outside of NE. The year prior to his NE season, he only played in 12 games and still put up more yards and TDs than with Brady. If you want to start the surrounding talent argument....

If Brady s so great, why didn't Moss have his best season with him? You're not saying that Brady held Moss back are you? Because Moss is obviously capable of putting up more than 1493 yards, and averaging more than 15.2 Yards Per Catch, and more than 93 yards per game. Why couldn't Brady, the great QB, give Moss his best season yet? This is a WR who already had two seasons tied for third on the best receiving TD seasons and Brady could only get him to break the record by one?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

I think another way of looking at it is to compare Tom Brady's 2001 numbers with Cassel's. Looking at their first 15 full games (excluding the part games when they came in due to injury, and including one playoff game from Brady to compare apples to apples):

Brady: 279/460, 60.6%, 3110 yards, 19 TDs, 13 INTs

Cassel: 314/498, 63%, 3541 yards, 22 TDs, 11 INTs

Now, considering that switz considers Brady's 50 TD, undefeated regular season, also known as the greatest single season by a quarterback in the NFL, to be an outlier for a good but not great quarterback, let's examine the fact that Brady's numbers with Welker and Moss increased by roughly 7.1% passing, 1300 yards, 26 TDs, with 4 fewer INTs. Clearly Cassel's numbers were a little better than Brady's 2001 numbers, but the fact is that they're not even close to good enough to justify the surrounding talent.

A more accurate comparison might be between Cassel and Manning's rookie seasons. Both Manning and Cassell had the benefit of a hall of fame wide receiver behind them. We'll forgive Manning the benefit of working all offseason with the starting team, and continuosly starting for the previous seven years, while Cassel did not have those benefits, because Cassel had an opportunity to hold a clipboard as a third stringer. Here's their numbers:

Cassel: 314/498, 63%, 3541 yards, 22 TDs, 11 INTs

Manning: 309/540, 57%, 3514 yards, 24 TDs, 26 INTs

As you can see, Cassel threw 5 more completions and 27 more yards on 50 fewer passes, threw for roughly the same number of TDs, and threw fewer than half as many picks. And that's before we factor in the difference between 11-5 and 3-13.

Brady >>>> Cassel > Manning.

I love how whenever Brady gets criticized, instead of trying to defend Brady, Pats fans always try to attack Manning. It's like the kids at school who would go around insulting others just to make themselves feel better.

Oy, he is not attacking Manning so much as he is turning your very own simpleton illogic against you

So Manning walking into the NFL, as a rookie, vastly different than HS or College as opposed to what bf wants to imply, throwing <60 passes to a WR in his second season = Cassel throwing to Moss and Welker this season? Nice spin.

Cassel's situation this season is far more comparable to Brady's early career... heck, Welker was running the same pass patterns that Troy Brown was running Brady's first season, and eerily similar results. Of course, Brady then had Glenn then Patten running fly routes, and hooked up with them about the same amount Cassel hooked up with Moss. No arguments that Moss is far and above a better WR than those two, but they were used similarly, with similar results.

What amazes me is that for all the people saying how great Brady is, Bledsoe still is the Pats passing leader, not Brady, with an 11 game difference.

Is that what amazes you? Brilliant, why hasn't anyone else posted this? Could be that some considered posting it, but then they remembered the 3 Super Bowls, the league and SB MVPs and realized how foolish they would look.

In Indy, other QBs have had a chance to play in the Indy offense and haven't put up nearly as good stats as Manning has.

This simply isn't true, in fact Sorgis numbers are (how you say) eerily similar to Mannings. You simply continue to spew things out that have NO basis in fact or reason

But Cassel in his first start outperforms Brady in the same game. How do you explain Cassel outperforming Brady in the first game this season, coming off the bench?

There is only one person on the planet who thinks Cassel outplayed Brady in the first game and you look much the fool for even attempting to make this a significant part of your arguement. Hint, repeating something stupid again and again doesn't make it true.

It's pretty simple - in NE the system makes QBs play well. In Indy, Manning makes that offense work.

Maybe you are right, but you sure as hell haven't offered even a molecule of evidence to support what your saying (not that, that is anything new )Again, I ask you to explain?

 

[DropKick]

Brady makes the HOF like Aikman did, on the basis of SB wins, not on the basis of being a great QB. Brady is a good-but-not-great QB in a great system. Last year he had a remarkable, record setting season, because his coaches decided they wanted to break records

This is why people call Belichick a genius. For some reason, no other coach in the NFL decides they want to break records.

Good point. But Switz, like many others, is kind of a spaz. So, it isn't really politically correct to point out all the flaws in his floppy logic. For example, when the Patriots have a record setting offensive year he believes they should have done more given the number of pass attempts. I wouldn't even try to explain to him how the Patriots run a short pass offense as a substitute for the run game. Yards per attempt not high enough? I wouldn't even waste my breath on the important things like ball control, points and wins.It's the eve of 2009 and you peons are still debating Spygate? C'mon... say it ain't so. NE has compiled a 29-6 record since then and you insist on discrediting Brady and BB?For what it's worth I'm a Dolphins fan since 1971. I know good football, systems and players when I see them. Brady is a very good QB in a great system. BB is the best coach in the game. Period.

 

[switz]

In Indy, other QBs have had a chance to play in the Indy offense and haven't put up nearly as good stats as Manning has.

This simply isn't true, in fact Sorgis numbers are (how you say) eerily similar to Mannings. You simply continue to spew things out that have NO basis in fact or reason

Really? 178 yards and 0 TDs, less that 6 YPA is similar to how Manning plays? You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Sorgi looked adequate beating a team that had nothing vested in the last game of the season, that's it. Nothing close to as good as Manning.Here's a clue: Manning has never averaged less than 233.7 yards per game for a season, he's never thrown less than 6.5 YPA, and that was his rookie season, outside of that he's never had less than 7.1 YPA for a season. His career passer rating is 94.7, and his lowest was 84.1

Sorgi's YPG is about 25% of what Manning's is for his career, and his best game was 178 yards. His yards per attempt is 6.0 for his career. Passer rating 89.9.

There is a huge dropoff in the passing offense between Manning and Sorgi. The fact you even bothered to try to argue that is ridiculous.

But Cassel in his first start outperforms Brady in the same game. How do you explain Cassel outperforming Brady in the first game this season, coming off the bench?

There is only one person on the planet who thinks Cassel outplayed Brady in the first game and you look much the fool for even attempting to make this a significant part of your arguement. Hint, repeating something stupid again and again doesn't make it true.

Better completion %, more yards per completion, more TDs. What about that is not better? Denying it again and again doesn't make it any less true.

It's pretty simple - in NE the system makes QBs play well. In Indy, Manning makes that offense work.

Maybe you are right, but you sure as hell haven't offered even a molecule of evidence to support what your saying (not that, that is anything new )Again, I ask you to explain?

So, it's clear than in Indy, changing QBs makes a HUGE difference...In NE, not so much

Cassel this season

63.4 completion %, 3693 yards, 21 TDs, 11 INTs, 7.2 YPA, 280.3 YPG, 89.4 Rating

Brady career averages (not counting this season and his rookie season)

63.0 completion %, 3766 yards, 28TDs, 12 INTs, 7.2 YPA, 237.5 YPG, 92.9 Rating

Cassel is better or tied in 4 of 7 categories, Brady has averaged more TDs and has a better rating, but that includes his '07 season. And we're comparing Brady's career to Cassel's first season as a starter.

If you don't see that the system in NE obviously is more important than the QB, I'm not sure what could convince you. Here are two later round drafted QBs who come in and put up good stats. That spells system to me, just like when Denver had successive runners annually.

 

[bostonfred]

If Brady s so great, why didn't Moss have his best season with him?

He did.

 

[Workhorse]

For the 2008 Patriots with Matt Cassel, 2,154 of their 3,790 yards through the air were the result of Yards After Catch (YAC).

That's 56% of their overall passing yards as YAC. Tops in the NFL this year.

For the 2007 Patriots with Tom Brady, 2,052 of their 4,859 yards through the air were YAC. Only 42%.

2006? 1,780 of 3,570 (49%)

2005? 1,984 of 4,322 (45%)

Matt Cassel received a lot more help by his receivers than Tom Brady has in recent history. If it's "the same system", shouldn't those numbers be closer to Brady's? Cassel's stats benefited from his receivers efforts far more than Brady in recent years.

 

[DropKick]

For the 2008 Patriots with Matt Cassel, 2,154 of their 3,790 yards through the air were the result of Yards After Catch (YAC).That's 56% of their overall passing yards as YAC. Tops in the NFL this year.For the 2007 Patriots with Tom Brady, 2,052 of their 4,859 yards through the air were YAC. Only 42%.2006? 1,780 of 3,570 (49%)2005? 1,984 of 4,322 (45%)Matt Cassel received a lot more help by his receivers than Tom Brady has in recent history. If it's "the same system", shouldn't those numbers be closer to Brady's? Cassel's stats benefited from his receivers efforts far more than Brady in recent years.

Cassel did well this year... ONCE he got his feet under him. Credit the system and/or the talent evaluation in NE. Brady has won 3 SuperBowls and is rightfully considered one of the best QBs of all time.Do we really need to compare Yards per Attempt of backup QBs or try to draw conclusions from YAC statistics? The original point was in regards to Brady's health and, like most situations in NE, I suspect we won't really know anything accurate or significant in the near future.

 

[AnonymousBob]

Somehow we went from the condition of Brady's knee next year to a statistical comparison of Cassel's first season to Manning's first season

This thread has turned into a game of telephone. Although most threads seem to do that.I don't give a rat's ### about Brady vs. Cassell vs. Manning vs. whoever else gets dragged into this argument.I want information about the health (or lack thereof) of Brady's knee.

 

[Das Boot]

As a Patriots fan, it's fun to be the most hated, envied team in the league.

One out of two ain't bad. Not sure where you draw that conclusion from. I hate Bonds for cheating, too, but I don't envy him.

I imagine you think it's because of the Pats success more than the cheating, but I don't remember hearing much Patriot-hate before last year, and they didn't win the Super Bowl last year.

Also, I didn't hate Pittsburgh in the 70's or the 49ers in the 80's, so 'hate and envy' don't neccessarily go along with winning.

I think most people's hatred for New England is more a combination of the cheating, Belichick's smug demeanor, and their fans' refusal to acknowledge that it puts their championships under a bit of suspicion. Of course, if it were my team who was caught, I'd be doing my best to downplay it, too.

Running up the scores last year didn't help their image any either.Poor sportsmanship doesn't become any franchise.

 

[Workhorse]

For the 2008 Patriots with Matt Cassel, 2,154 of their 3,790 yards through the air were the result of Yards After Catch (YAC).That's 56% of their overall passing yards as YAC. Tops in the NFL this year.For the 2007 Patriots with Tom Brady, 2,052 of their 4,859 yards through the air were YAC. Only 42%.2006? 1,780 of 3,570 (49%)2005? 1,984 of 4,322 (45%)Matt Cassel received a lot more help by his receivers than Tom Brady has in recent history. If it's "the same system", shouldn't those numbers be closer to Brady's? Cassel's stats benefited from his receivers efforts far more than Brady in recent years.

Cassel did well this year... ONCE he got his feet under him. Credit the system and/or the talent evaluation in NE. Brady has won 3 SuperBowls and is rightfully considered one of the best QBs of all time.Do we really need to compare Yards per Attempt of backup QBs or try to draw conclusions from YAC statistics? The original point was in regards to Brady's health and, like most situations in NE, I suspect we won't really know anything accurate or significant in the near future.

With regards to the sidebar about "is Cassel just as good as Brady?", YAC stats paint part of the larger picture. Cassel also took FAR more sacks this year (47) than Brady has in many years (typically between 20-25). Cassel had a nice year, but when you break down his season beyond the typical stats, he's not Tom Brady.

 

[greenline]

Pats are awesome. You all know it and are jealous. They'll be right back in the thick of it again next year. Your Seahawks, Eagles, Titans, Jaguars, Bears , Broncos, Jets, Dolphins, etc will waver year to year and meanwhile they'll keep chugging along in Foxboro. With Brady or without. Get used to it. If Coach Belichick stays here for another 10 years it will remain the same; Winning Seasons, Superbowl Wins, Superbowl appearances, Playoff appearances, records, etc etc.

Happy New Year