TheFanatic
Footballguy
It is? I sorta thought that average was about 4. 3.9 isn't all that far from 4 and considering the circumstances, I would say that's not bad at all.
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Tre Mason (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JackReacher
- Start date
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Sorta Thought, eh?
Ok... let's throw out an arbitrary number like...
Among RBs who had at least 100 rushes last season, Stacy ranked THIRTIETH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among RBs who had at least 150 rushes, he ranked TWENTY FIFTH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among Rbs who had at least 200 rushes last season, he ranked SIXTEENTH in the league w 3.89ypc
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You can "Sorta Think" whatever you like... the stats, the numbers and the rankings dont lie. Stacy is a plodder whose success came on sheer volume.
ps: Fanatic... you got
, as you like to say.
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Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
I basically agree with you that Stacy is likely just a mediocre compiler, but you're totally glossing over the fact that Mason probably has less than a one in four chance of even being that good. Far more than 50% of third round RBs just bust outright, regardless of competition or lack thereof. IMO the most likely scenario has them both canabalizing each other's value for FF purposes in 2014, and I'm personally not close to certain that either guy is a long term answer at RB.Sorta Thought, eh?
Ok... let's throw out an arbitrary number like...
Among RBs who had at least 100 rushes last season, Stacy ranked THIRTIETH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among RBs who had at least 150 rushes, he ranked TWENTY FIFTH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among Rbs who had at least 200 rushes last season, he ranked SIXTEENTH in the league w 3.89ypc
---------------------
You can "Sorta Think" whatever you like... the stats, the numbers and the rankings dont lie. Stacy is a plodder whose success came on sheer volume.
ps: Fanatic... you got
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Completely fathomable that Mason flops. Noone is a sure bet coming into the NFL.
But my point is, based on my own research, tape, analysis etc, I feel as though Mason has a good chance to carve a real role in this offense by midseason, possibly even taking it over.
He doesnt have AP, Charles, Forte, McCoy to beat out... he has a 3,89ypc plodder to overtake. Which makes it all the more realistic.
But my point is, based on my own research, tape, analysis etc, I feel as though Mason has a good chance to carve a real role in this offense by midseason, possibly even taking it over.
He doesnt have AP, Charles, Forte, McCoy to beat out... he has a 3,89ypc plodder to overtake. Which makes it all the more realistic.
This 2014 draft was STACKED.... A third round pick in this draft is like a 2nd in any other. Plus the RB is devalued....
The Rams using a 3rd round pick on Mason when they supposedly have the answer at RB - says a lot....
DropKick
Footballguy
I think all it says is the Rams thought he was the best player available. Teams all over the league use multiple backs... This doesn't mean they're unhappy with Stacy.
Nothing wrong with Stacy's 3.9 ypc when taken in context.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Wow. You know nothing about statistics do you?Sorta Thought, eh?
Ok... let's throw out an arbitrary number like...
Among RBs who had at least 100 rushes last season, Stacy ranked THIRTIETH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among RBs who had at least 150 rushes, he ranked TWENTY FIFTH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among Rbs who had at least 200 rushes last season, he ranked SIXTEENTH in the league w 3.89ypc
---------------------
You can "Sorta Think" whatever you like... the stats, the numbers and the rankings dont lie. Stacy is a plodder whose success came on sheer volume.
ps: Fanatic... you got
So of RB's with similar workloads, 200+ he finished right in the middle of the pack. That is pretty much the definition of average.
So how did you own me other than proving my point? The best part of that is you actually owned yourself on that one!
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Only 22 players had more than 200 rushes, sweetpeaHe was 16th of 22 players in yards per carryWow. You know nothing about statistics do you?Sorta Thought, eh?
Ok... let's throw out an arbitrary number like...
Among RBs who had at least 100 rushes last season, Stacy ranked THIRTIETH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among RBs who had at least 150 rushes, he ranked TWENTY FIFTH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among Rbs who had at least 200 rushes last season, he ranked SIXTEENTH in the league w 3.89ypc
---------------------
You can "Sorta Think" whatever you like... the stats, the numbers and the rankings dont lie. Stacy is a plodder whose success came on sheer volume.
ps: Fanatic... you got
So of RB's with similar workloads, 200+ he finished right in the middle of the pack. That is pretty much the definition of average.
So how did you own me other than proving my point? The best part of that is you actually owned yourself on that one!
Anything else you want explained, or just wanna take the defeat now?
He is a plodder. A volume compiler
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BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Stacy is the starting RB for the Rams....Mason is a luxury
bulger2holt
Footballguy
Fisher wants to run the ball 30-35 times per game and Stacy will run 20 of those. I can see something like
Stacy - 20
Mason - 8
Cunningham - 5
Stacy - 20
Mason - 8
Cunningham - 5
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
What does the yard per carry average need to be where Stacy isn't a plodder in your estimation?That way, Mason can be held to the same standard. If he doesn't meet it, that will make him a "plodder". If there are OL issues, that can't be an excuse, since no quarter was given for Stacy as a rookie.Only 22 players had more than 200 rushes, sweetpeaHe was 16th of 22 players in yards per carryWow. You know nothing about statistics do you?Sorta Thought, eh?
Ok... let's throw out an arbitrary number like...
Among RBs who had at least 100 rushes last season, Stacy ranked THIRTIETH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among RBs who had at least 150 rushes, he ranked TWENTY FIFTH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among Rbs who had at least 200 rushes last season, he ranked SIXTEENTH in the league w 3.89ypc
---------------------
You can "Sorta Think" whatever you like... the stats, the numbers and the rankings dont lie. Stacy is a plodder whose success came on sheer volume.
ps: Fanatic... you got
So of RB's with similar workloads, 200+ he finished right in the middle of the pack. That is pretty much the definition of average.
So how did you own me other than proving my point? The best part of that is you actually owned yourself on that one!
Anything else you want explained, or just wanna take the defeat now?
He is a plodder. A volume compiler
You have had a few takes about pass protection, that it is trivial, and that he can be coached up. What if he is still a liability at mid-season. Could that reduce his chance of "taking over", or do you think STL will just be OK with the increased risk of the QB being hit?
Which is more likely, Mason doesn't start in 2014 or Gordon is suspended for the entire season.
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Nope
(1) Stacy is a guy that was at the very top in the league in facing 8 man fronts on his carries,
(2) Had Clemens as his QB when he started getting carries,
(2) Was a part of an offense that changed completely when he started getting the ball; there are few teams with a losing record that got as high a percentage of its yards from the run as the post-week-four-2014-Rams.
The team ran when they were winning, ran when they were losing, ran when they were tied. 3.9 for Stacy looks awesome compared to what Lacy did.
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Does that mean you consider Stacy a better RB than Lacy?
Yeah, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. I don't know if you guys have access to this, but it adjusts performance for defensive opponents faced. Stacy was above the average line while Lacy and Bell were below it:Wow. You know nothing about statistics do you?Sorta Thought, eh?
Ok... let's throw out an arbitrary number like...
Among RBs who had at least 100 rushes last season, Stacy ranked THIRTIETH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among RBs who had at least 150 rushes, he ranked TWENTY FIFTH in the league w 3.89ypc
Among Rbs who had at least 200 rushes last season, he ranked SIXTEENTH in the league w 3.89ypc
---------------------
You can "Sorta Think" whatever you like... the stats, the numbers and the rankings dont lie. Stacy is a plodder whose success came on sheer volume.
ps: Fanatic... you got
So of RB's with similar workloads, 200+ he finished right in the middle of the pack. That is pretty much the definition of average.
So how did you own me other than proving my point? The best part of that is you actually owned yourself on that one!
http://rotoviz.com/2013/12/rb-efficiency-numbers-adjusting-for-strength-of-schedule/
Interestingly, James Starks was way above the line.
Here's another good article: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/04/09/the-impact-of-defensive-packages-on-yards-per-carry/
Alfred Morris was the only player to see base formation more than Stacy last year. Stacy was facing base 82% of the time. Comparatively, Lacy was facing base only 40% of the time.
And a quick check on data dominator shows that the Rams ranked 31st in passing yardage from weeks 5-17 (when Stacy was playing).
It's cute how he tries to just look at ypc in a vacuum and ignores things like offensive balance, defensive schedule, and defensive formations. I would say that he just got owned, but that would be like bragging about beating a kindergartener at 1-on-1 basketball.
Look, people say this gibberish every year. Weak draft, stacked draft, whatever. Anyone with half a brain knows you can't judge a draft until 3 years down the line. And at that point these dramatic statements are usually discredited.In dynasty fantasy football you can't wait three years to make an assessment...
This years draft was the best that I've seen in terms of the skill positions.
No, it doesnt even mean I think Stacy is better than Mason.
What it does mean is that I dont think it makes sense to justify rosy scenarios about Mason based on Stacy's 3.9 YPC in 2013.
I dont get the point. The Browns passed, passed and passed some more last year. They led the league in passing attempts.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Yet were 31st in pass completion percentage
29th in yards per attempt
25th in passer rating
.... So why dont we adjust Gordon's stats? He still ended up the no1 WR DESPITE all those things... and missed two games
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Other than suspension/behavior/rookie QB, the real concern with Josh Gordon (yep, Gordon...here in this Tre Mason thread) is that the Browns' big gross pass stats are likely to drop significantly without Norv Turner.
So the heavily extrapolated point that is trying to be made (Browns were "bad" passers, yet Gordon was awesome) is actually near 180 degrees from the reality of the situation which is that Gordon was in such a pass-friendly atmosphere in Cleveland in 2013 that his stats will face head-winds in 2014 if/when he plays.
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TheFanatic
Footballguy
So 3.9 + plus eye test = Plodder. That's the extent of this argument. Can't even acknowledge that teams game planed to stop one player and one player alone and he still finished a biscuit below average of 4.0 YPC.
It's either troll, moron, or fishing. Either way, I'm out...
It's either troll, moron, or fishing. Either way, I'm out...
Soulfly3
Footballguy
No... you see, here's the point
CLE ranked 27 in rush attempts, w 462 (near dead last), but ranked 7th in pass attempts
What does that tell us??? It tells us that DEFENSES KNEW WE WERE PASSING THE BALL.
Despite that, Gordon, with what could be argued as some of the worst QBing in history, lead all WRs and his numbers were out of this world.
Yes, despite the fact that teams knew we had to pass, and we had QBs that were god awful at it
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But here's the thing... Stacy lovers want to ignore that train of thought and complain about how defenses KNEW STL would be running the ball, so Stacy didnt have a chance.
Yet... oddly enough, STL had a more balanced attack than CLE, as they ranked 16th in rushing attempts and 27th in passing.
In one case, despite the most attrocious QBs and QB stats, Gordon (who is an actual TALENT) transcended those obstacles, but Stacy, who imo is a plodder, proved to be just that, despite a more balanced attack.
CLE ranked 27 in rush attempts, w 462 (near dead last), but ranked 7th in pass attempts
What does that tell us??? It tells us that DEFENSES KNEW WE WERE PASSING THE BALL.
Despite that, Gordon, with what could be argued as some of the worst QBing in history, lead all WRs and his numbers were out of this world.
Yes, despite the fact that teams knew we had to pass, and we had QBs that were god awful at it
----------------------
But here's the thing... Stacy lovers want to ignore that train of thought and complain about how defenses KNEW STL would be running the ball, so Stacy didnt have a chance.
Yet... oddly enough, STL had a more balanced attack than CLE, as they ranked 16th in rushing attempts and 27th in passing.
In one case, despite the most attrocious QBs and QB stats, Gordon (who is an actual TALENT) transcended those obstacles, but Stacy, who imo is a plodder, proved to be just that, despite a more balanced attack.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Glad to see you go. You offered NOTHING but insults and useless banter to this conversation.
When you want to use some actual facts, numbers and logic, feel free to join us again.
I feel like there's a minimum of 2 out of those 3 options going on with him.
Yet you are the one whose rebuttals have been lacking in logic, facts, and numbers... oh except for the 3.9 you keep harping on. Delusional. If you feel like getting owned again, check out this article: http://rotoviz.com/2014/06/is-zac-stacy-the-most-undervalued-player-in-fantasy-football/
It's paid content so I won't post the whole thing, but here are a few excerpts:
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It's worth noting in regards to Stacy's 3.9ypc that his coach is the same Jeff Fisher that stuck with Eddie George for 8 years despite him eclipsing 3.9ypc only twice in that span (and both times, barely) just because he could shoulder the load.
Fisher seems to care less about the ypc stat than anyone else in the league.
Fisher seems to care less about the ypc stat than anyone else in the league.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
And LaDainian Tomlinson only eclipsed 3.9ypc 6 times in his 11 years.
Stacy going to be on par w him, or no?
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I'm not sure how representative the final game was (15-15), STL was missing multiple starting OL (Jake Long and Scott Wells).
It was in SEA, so it might have been ugly anyways, but not necessarily THAT ugly. At home, and with Long and Wells in the lineup, he had arguably his best game of the season (26-134 for a 5.2 average).
Without the last game, he is 235 for 958, which is about 4.1 yards per carry. In other words, about the same as fellow class of '14 RBs Lacy and Bernard, and about a half yard better than Le'Veon Bell, I think all RB1s in dynasty. PLODDERS! Without the week 17 outlier, Stacy did measure up pretty well against his peers, even if the fact that he faced more stacked fronts isn't acknowledged.
He didn't play the first month, than the starting QB was injured a few games later. HOU was a strange game in which the game was over by the first half, SEA was in the second month, and while he did run well against them, they gave up the fewest points in the league. Stacy didn't get a TD until the CAR game week 7, and that was receiving. He didn't have a rushing TD until November. From that point, through week 16, he had 7 TDs in the next seven weeks. If the OL is better, and you think Stacy won't be held without a rushing TD until November this season, there could be some upside there.
Other plodders.
Matt Forte - 3.9 and 3.6 first two seasons. Clearly he was just a compiler, and that was all he was ever going to be.
LeSean McCoy - 4.1 as a rookie and 4.2 in his fourth season.
Marshawn Lynch - 4.0, 4.1, 3.8 and 3.5 first four seasons, 4.2 in 2011 and 2013.
Reggie Bush - 3.6, 3.7 and 3.8 first three seasons.
C.J. Spiller - 3.8 as a rookie.
DeAngelo Williams - 4.1 as a rookie.
Ray Rice - 4.2 as a rookie and 4.0 in his third season.
Retired plodders
Emmitt Smith - 3.9 as a rookie, 4.0 and 3.7 in his fifth and seventh seasons. Obvious compiler that would never amount to anything.
Walter Payton - 3.5 as a rookie.
Curtis Martin - 4.0, 3.6, 4.2, 3.5, 4.0 and 3.8 first six seasons.
Ladainian Tomlinson - 3.6 as a rookie and 3.9 in his fourth season.
Jerome Bettis - 3.9 CAREER
Marshall Faulk - 4.1, 3.7, 3.0, 4.0 and 4.1 his first (and only) five seasons in IND. SLUGGARD!
O.J. Simpson - 3.9, 4.1 and 4.1 first three seasons.
It was in SEA, so it might have been ugly anyways, but not necessarily THAT ugly. At home, and with Long and Wells in the lineup, he had arguably his best game of the season (26-134 for a 5.2 average).
Without the last game, he is 235 for 958, which is about 4.1 yards per carry. In other words, about the same as fellow class of '14 RBs Lacy and Bernard, and about a half yard better than Le'Veon Bell, I think all RB1s in dynasty. PLODDERS! Without the week 17 outlier, Stacy did measure up pretty well against his peers, even if the fact that he faced more stacked fronts isn't acknowledged.
He didn't play the first month, than the starting QB was injured a few games later. HOU was a strange game in which the game was over by the first half, SEA was in the second month, and while he did run well against them, they gave up the fewest points in the league. Stacy didn't get a TD until the CAR game week 7, and that was receiving. He didn't have a rushing TD until November. From that point, through week 16, he had 7 TDs in the next seven weeks. If the OL is better, and you think Stacy won't be held without a rushing TD until November this season, there could be some upside there.
Other plodders.
Matt Forte - 3.9 and 3.6 first two seasons. Clearly he was just a compiler, and that was all he was ever going to be.
LeSean McCoy - 4.1 as a rookie and 4.2 in his fourth season.
Marshawn Lynch - 4.0, 4.1, 3.8 and 3.5 first four seasons, 4.2 in 2011 and 2013.
Reggie Bush - 3.6, 3.7 and 3.8 first three seasons.
C.J. Spiller - 3.8 as a rookie.
DeAngelo Williams - 4.1 as a rookie.
Ray Rice - 4.2 as a rookie and 4.0 in his third season.
Retired plodders
Emmitt Smith - 3.9 as a rookie, 4.0 and 3.7 in his fifth and seventh seasons. Obvious compiler that would never amount to anything.
Walter Payton - 3.5 as a rookie.
Curtis Martin - 4.0, 3.6, 4.2, 3.5, 4.0 and 3.8 first six seasons.
Ladainian Tomlinson - 3.6 as a rookie and 3.9 in his fourth season.
Jerome Bettis - 3.9 CAREER
Marshall Faulk - 4.1, 3.7, 3.0, 4.0 and 4.1 his first (and only) five seasons in IND. SLUGGARD!
O.J. Simpson - 3.9, 4.1 and 4.1 first three seasons.
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Soulfly3
Footballguy
Wait, are we debating Zac Stacy, Tre Mason, or Josh Gordon here? And how the hell did Josh Gordon get here anyways, his 130 page thread wasn't covering him enough?
While debating the merits of Doug Martin in another thread, I happened to look up Zac Stacy's combine measurables, and I was pretty surprised. He's a lot more nimble and explosive than I had assumed.
Taking into consideration all of the advanced information that has been provided in this thread about Stacy, especially about the defensive packages he faced, I'm actually a lot more comfortable drafting him than I was. I'll be rather surprised if Mason wrestles the job from him this season, or any time in the near future.
Way too much stock is being put into that 3.9 ypc number, which has been shown numerous times to not be nearly as bad as it's being portrayed, especially under the circumstances.
While debating the merits of Doug Martin in another thread, I happened to look up Zac Stacy's combine measurables, and I was pretty surprised. He's a lot more nimble and explosive than I had assumed.
Taking into consideration all of the advanced information that has been provided in this thread about Stacy, especially about the defensive packages he faced, I'm actually a lot more comfortable drafting him than I was. I'll be rather surprised if Mason wrestles the job from him this season, or any time in the near future.
Way too much stock is being put into that 3.9 ypc number, which has been shown numerous times to not be nearly as bad as it's being portrayed, especially under the circumstances.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
You're kidding by asking me if I'm kidding, right? All you've done is bring up 3.9 ypc and call him a plodder. You contribute absolutely nothing... just constant blather. You actually scoffed at the idea of analyzing situation! Very few posters bring less to the table than you. Congrats.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
But as rushers, you could tell some of these plodding rookie yard per carry averages would be death blows to their NFL careers, right, kind of like Stacy now?
* So, how high does Mason's rookie yard per carry average need to be, in order to not be labeled a dreaded plodder?
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Do you actually read what you are responding to or do you just love to spout back with outlandish rhetoric? His point was pretty salient.
Nero
Footballguy
Stacy is better than Lacy IMO.
Junior McSpiffy
Footballguy
Will you quit responding with your non-numberness... and charts? And numbers?FF Ninja said:
Don't you know 3.9? 3.9, man!
DropKick
Footballguy
Considering the defenses in the division (Seattle, SF, Arizona) and games against Carolina, and NO, he faced some formidable defenses.FreeBaGeL said:
If I'm an NFL coach, a 33-104 performance (Tampa, week 16) may not be sexy from a YPC perspective but it usually (and did) result in a "W" - the most important stat.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Mason was 10-29 with a long run of 18 (again, good job on the explosive play, but that means 11 yards in the other 9 rushing attempts). He reportedly continued to have pass protection issues.
Stacy was only 5-11.
Cunningham technically started, and was 5-32 with a long run of 21. Fisher said after the game they wanted to give Cunningham some times with the 1s, because they know what Stacy can do.
Saffold had an ankle injury, and Jake Long looked very rusty.
* If the OL is going to have pass protection issues (Long a question mark returning from a torn ACL, Saffold got hurt again), it is even more important for the RBs to be at least competent in pass pro. Until Mason works some of the kinks out of that aspect of his game, it is hard for me to see him on the field a lot any time soon. IMO, mid-season is not a conservative ETA. I'm not sure any time this season is, which makes him a highly sketchy play in redraft. With Mason continuing to be buried on the depth chart by Stacy and Cunningham (who has looked good in limited carries), it looks like a full blown committe with Stacy in the lead role, and Cunningham's presence making carries even harder to come by for Mason.
Stacy was only 5-11.
Cunningham technically started, and was 5-32 with a long run of 21. Fisher said after the game they wanted to give Cunningham some times with the 1s, because they know what Stacy can do.
Saffold had an ankle injury, and Jake Long looked very rusty.
* If the OL is going to have pass protection issues (Long a question mark returning from a torn ACL, Saffold got hurt again), it is even more important for the RBs to be at least competent in pass pro. Until Mason works some of the kinks out of that aspect of his game, it is hard for me to see him on the field a lot any time soon. IMO, mid-season is not a conservative ETA. I'm not sure any time this season is, which makes him a highly sketchy play in redraft. With Mason continuing to be buried on the depth chart by Stacy and Cunningham (who has looked good in limited carries), it looks like a full blown committe with Stacy in the lead role, and Cunningham's presence making carries even harder to come by for Mason.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
was that bolded your commentary, or from another article, because the pff one you linked was just about nickel vs base, which can also be a little misleading.
stacy faced less nickel simply because stl eschewed the extra wr that was a gb staple for an extra te instead.
lacy faced more nickel, but had the benefit of that extra blocker only half as often as stacy.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
That is a good post and raises some interesting questions. What is going on with the different personnel packages, and that could change from play to play.
I definitely think Lacy is more talented than Stacy, just to get that out of the way.
On a run (which this data is tracking by definition), it sounds like STL has an extra TE blocking a base defense "additional" LB relative to GB having a third WR going against a nickel DB. If that WR is blocking, than STL doesn't have an extra blocker so much as a different blocker, compared to GB. A TE is probably a better blocker than a WR, but a base LB is usually a better run defender than a nickel DB (with exceptions, of course). If they are both blocked, I'm not sure it wouldn't be better to face the DB blocked by a WR than the LB blocked by a TE (guess it depends on how good a blocker the TE and WR are, and how good the LB and DB are at getting off blocks, respectively). This also makes me wonder if the extra WR is going out on a route downfield and drawing the extra DB with them in coverage as a decoy (in some cases out of position to make a tackle in run support), and than GB runs a draw to Lacy, even a blocked LB would seem to be a worse draw than running through air, where the vacated nickel DB was? And again, the WRs could still run block, but do so further down field.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
when I say extra blocker I don't mean an additional blocker -- I mean an extra guy on the field who has a blocking job as opposed to a receiving job.
generally speaking, a te or fb will be a better blocker, but of course the lb should be a better tackler.
also, a lot of the time that third wr is some slot guy running underneath routes who makes his covering corner available for run support, if we aren't even just talking about zone.
there's more to it but I have to go to bed an hour ago
generally speaking, a te or fb will be a better blocker, but of course the lb should be a better tackler.
also, a lot of the time that third wr is some slot guy running underneath routes who makes his covering corner available for run support, if we aren't even just talking about zone.
there's more to it but I have to go to bed an hour ago
Can you pls clarify a little? Which of #1-4 below are you saying the Rams were lining up as?
On offense, there are 5 lineman and 6 "others" consisting of 2 ends and 4 in the backfield.
What exactly are you implying as the Rams tendency when Stacy was in?
(1) Base is SE/TE and then FL/HB/FB/QB. Draws 7 in the box, 4 DBs.
(2) 3 WR typically replaces the FB with a slot WR and leaves just the HB in the backfield. Draws 6 in the box, 5 DBs.
(3) 2 TE, 1 flanker, HB/FB/QB; so only 1 WR. Typically draws an extra safety, not a CB and not a LB. I dont remember this when watching the Rams; seriously doubt it. But this is the only formation where there's a true extra blocker as you are implying.
(4) 2 TE (1 lined up in the backfield replacing the FB, so not actually an end), 1 SE, 1 Flanker, HB and QB. Is this what you're talking about? It typically draws an extra SS subbing in for a LB, but the LB can stay in if the TE is essentially as slow as a FB. If so, it is essentially the same as a base offensive package described in #1 above and is not an extra blocker at all, just a BB/TE subbing in for a FB; the FB typically having substantial blocking duties on his own.
Also:
"8 in the box" when playing man typically means the SS is not primarily concerned w/his TE coverage assignment and instead crowds the line to protect the run, but can also mean the FS creeps up. Unless it's #2 above or something like a wish-bone 8-in-the-box is not a function of the offensive package, but a generalized term for a defensive tactic that is meant to stop the run.
Thanks for clarifying!
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