Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
And you'll keep telling yourself all those things. I'm happy that it makes you feel better. But your rationalizations are a dead giveaway for the rest of us.
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Trump Approval Increasing, Support for Impeachment falling (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jon_mx
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
Good advice for Trump I guess. He’s the one who will have this stain on him forever, for the rest of his life and beyond. And he truly earned it; he only has himself to blame.
Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
The theatrics are on full display tonight. You make it sound like he lost thousands of adoring fans because of today's proceedings. When this all calms down we'll all be right back where we started. If "Ukraine" was never once mentioned during his Presidency, it would have just been something else with people like yourself.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Umm yes...I will keep admitting the facts about this impeachment. The rest of who?
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Mueller line of thinking here from you? Are you asking me to prove innocence? Perhaps you can make a case for guilt because Schiff sure couldn't?
You could have just said you had no proof of innocence, that would have made more sense than what you responded with.
timschochet
Footballguy
I think you missed my point. We will never be back where we started. Even if he gets re-elected, and who knows? That could happen.
But it doesn’t matter. For the rest of modern history the second sentence of his wiki page will always read “Trump was the 3rd President in American history to be impeached...” Forever and ever. Trump realizes this even if you don’t. Why do you think he wrote that crazy letter last night? He’s pissed as hell about this. It’s a permanent embarrassment. There’s no way around it, no way to make it better. Its the worst day of his presidency, maybe the worst day of his life. A blot that will never go away.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
So the point of this thread is that proceeding with impeachment was bad strategy for democrats, and voting for impeachment will cost some democrats their seats in congress? That is the point?
Shouldn't the point be that the democrats did the right thing despite the possible political consequences? While we shouldn't be celebrating this moment in history, shouldn't we celebrate that doing the right thing prevailed for a change? I mean unless we buy the utterly stupid premise that absent public support this cannot be the right thing?
So lets celebrate a tiny bit that despite putting the 2020 presidential contest at risk (and the judicial nomination that comes along with this), putting house seats at risk, possibly solidifying the GOP senate voted to impeach the president for actions he most certainly did that are the very forms of corruptions the founding fathers worried about. For once principle and country were put ahead of party and personal ambition.
Shouldn't the point be that the democrats did the right thing despite the possible political consequences? While we shouldn't be celebrating this moment in history, shouldn't we celebrate that doing the right thing prevailed for a change? I mean unless we buy the utterly stupid premise that absent public support this cannot be the right thing?
So lets celebrate a tiny bit that despite putting the 2020 presidential contest at risk (and the judicial nomination that comes along with this), putting house seats at risk, possibly solidifying the GOP senate voted to impeach the president for actions he most certainly did that are the very forms of corruptions the founding fathers worried about. For once principle and country were put ahead of party and personal ambition.
Dickies
Footballguy
It’s because the Republicans are good at spreading propaganda. They all use the same language and just pound it into gullible people’s minds. It’s crazy having watched the witness testimonies to come to the conclusion the Dems were the ones putting on a show.
Democrats had perfected this long before Republicans. Before talk radio, the Democrat propaganda machine was the only game in town.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Seriously? What could Trump possibly do that would cause Republicans to defect? I can't think of a single thing. Maybe launching nukes at California. Maybe.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
"It’s because the Democrats are good at spreading propaganda. They all use the same language and just pound it into gullible people’s minds. It’s crazy having watched the witness testimonies to come to the conclusion the Repubs were the ones putting on a show. "
Well what do you know, it works this way too!
Republicans felt the same way under Clinton. Considering we democratically elect a president every 4 years, maybe having a high bar for impeachment is not the worst thing.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Here is the problem: I don't think the Democrats impeached Trump because it was the "right thing" or because they put principles and country over party and personal ambition; they did it because they hate Trump and couldn't wait to "get" him.
And I can't say I blame them. Trump is a clown, I am sure he is guilty of everything he is accused of and then some, and he has made it really easy for Democrats and anyone who doesn't march in step with everything he says and does to dislike/hate him, but let's not act like the Democrats were the moral police here and did this because they cared about principles or doing the right thing. The end result, Trump's impeachment, does not mean we have to like the road they took to get there, even if that end result was the right one.
Your view of principle is what I see as caving into the angry wing of the party so they don't revolt. This is politics. This is not a case where one side is brave and heroic. A partisan impeachment is exactly what the founding fathers DID NOT want. The point of this thread was to provide a data point for discussion. A data point which many in here seem to be in denial of. IMHO, the right thing to do is not proceed with impeachment until there is a reasonable possibility that the Senate will convict. Now we are getting in the mode where a president will get impeached every time the opposition party takes the House.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Except that this isn’t true! You don’t herd democrats. Democrats can’t escape from nuanced perspectives. They don’t get “on message” yet alone “pound it”. Democrats are horrible at messaging. Worst off they tend to let “the other side” define the message.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
You can argue that the cowardly democrats did the right thing only because Trump pushed things so far that they no longer had a choice, but for that you (as in this thread topic) wouldn’t be pointing to declining support among democrats as a supporting fact. So that is out!
I find the argument that congressmen so hated Trump that they were willing to toss aside their political futures pretty ridiculous. So this is also out.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
That’s the percentage for impeach and remove. Not just impeach. And the 40% was generously low, based on the polling data provided. The main point of the post was that it’s not just a sham. If it was just a sham, that impeach and remove percentage would be much lower. The overarching point is that Trump did the phone calls, he withheld the aid (no one else but him) and now he has to live with the consequences.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I love the constant post around here about how the democrats are extremists, or under the grip of extremists. There are what a half dozen “faces of the party” that aren’t solidly moderate establishment types? Please let the angry wing have a little say for a change, or at least those on the left with the needed ideas. As opposed to the “socialist” who start the conversation with old Heritage or Cato foundation policies.
Most ironic. This forum has the tenancy to wrap democrats in heroism while assuming the most vile characteristics of republicans and their supporters. To even suggest that there may be some anger on the extreme side of the democratic party seems to bring offense.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
No one argued that there aren't angry democrats on the extremes, it was argued that the extremes in the democratic party are the exceptions and not the rule. And while I tend to believe that most republicans in office are not really among the extremes, they are not among the "deploables" the GOP has "played chicken with the devil" and built a coalition of voters that has left the no compromise "politi-phobes" in control. Sure a few democrats might risk being primaried, but most all republicans face that risk. Angry left is not in charge. The no compromise left is angry because they have no party and not much of a voice. ETA: Just like the "reasonable conservatives" find they no longer have a party.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Censure is a toothless thing...it would have also been played as some sort of dem failure.
adonis
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
CNN isn't admitting anything. They're posting the results of a poll. That's what news outlets do.
adonis
Footballguy
I don't care a lick about CNN. What's the point here, that they have an analyst on who says he doesn't believe the poll? Ok?
Because it shows perhaps the people they hire to shape opinion with analysis might be just a tad on the slanted side.
adonis
Footballguy
That's not a reason not to conduct a fair trial.
Why should the senate not conduct a fair trial on the merits of the impeachment articles, as the constitution expects them to do?
You mean as the Democrats expect them to do. This has zero to do with a Constitutional expectation.
adonis
Footballguy
As an American, you should care whether your president behaved in a manner unbefitting the office. The ONLY way to get at the truth here is to have a fair and open trial. This was obstructed in the house, as part of their investigation. More testimony can be provided in the senate, IF you want the truth. If you want a sham, then let McConnell put on a show and kill it.
But for America, for our country, for the values we hold dear, for posterity, for a time where there's a Dem in that seat, and a Dem president, and a GOP House refers articles of impeachment on serious charges, why on earth wouldn't you want the precedent to be to hold a fair and open trial?
sho nuff
Footballguy
But it is...the house is the investigation...the Senate os the trial...the expectation is for a fair trial.
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squistion
Footballguy
Of course that was the expectation of the Founding Fathers. They wouldn't have required a trial in the Senate unless they believed it would be a fair trial.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I find these Democrstic talking points about a fair trial beyond funny.
Did Pelosi really not understand how the impeachment process works? Did she really expect the Republicans in the senate to make a better case than she did? I am baffled here. Pelosi seems like she was completely outmaneuver and now wants to punt. Good luck with this guys.
Did Pelosi really not understand how the impeachment process works? Did she really expect the Republicans in the senate to make a better case than she did? I am baffled here. Pelosi seems like she was completely outmaneuver and now wants to punt. Good luck with this guys.
parrot
Footballguy
Again, "the Republicans in the Senate" don't make the case. House Managers make the case. The Senate is the Jury. And the Senate is the forum where they present their full case for the rendering of a verdict.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I think she understands the trial is in the senate and not house...so thats a good place to start.
Why would she think the republicans would make her case in the senate? Thats not how it works. She knows that.
parrot
Footballguy
A grand jury looks a lot like a trial too, but it's not.
Or in the words of the estimable Johnathan Turley;
"In my view, the Framers wanted impeachment issues to be handled by the Senate under the conditions set out in Article I, Section 4. This was the body that Hamilton described as the ‘‘court of impeachment.’’ The Federalist No. 65, at 398 (Alexander Hamilton) (Clinton Rossiter ed., 1961). The House was not endowed with any of the features viewed as essential to a proper treatment of the merits. The House function was, therefore, viewed as facilitating review in the Senate by articulating the allegations against a president. While the Senate is not as protective over rights as a conventional trial,the Senate’s impeachment authority was specifically created to hear witnesses and to deliberate on such matters. For the House to take on a broader role of litigating the merits would be akin to a grand jury convicting an individual without benefit of the protections of a trial, including the rules of evidence. The House serves an accusatory not an adjudicatory function."
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CDOC-106sdoc3/pdf/GPO-CDOC-106sdoc3-20.pdf
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Widbil83
Footballguy
This is golden from Toobin. How on earth is he still at CNN? Every time I see him all I think about is his Weiner loving-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mediaite.com/tv/jeffrey-toobin-too-bad-breitbart-was-allowed-on-cnn-to-make-weinergate-claims/amp/
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