UNC Football and bball LOL (1 Viewer)

[ConstruxBoy]

Any more word on the basketball team having to vacate their titles going back to 1957?

 

[TobiasFunke]

One down and a ton more to go.

From what I heard today there is still another snowball coming down the hill. UNC has retained Harrington and Smith of Raleigh NC. A very very high profile criminal attorney. Ruh roh shaggy. This gets better with each passing minute.

I assume you mean Tharrington Smith, which handles lots of things other than criminal law according to their website, and is comprised of more than one person, despite your reference to a "high profile criminal attorney." So, not sure why you think that's significant.

Of course, basic reading comprehension and writing skills are probably too much to ask from a graduate of the university that once admitted Chris Washburn.

The details are leaking out. Care to retract that statement about "high profile criminal attorney"?

Efforts to reach Blake and Wichard for comment Sunday evening were unsuccessful. Wade Smith, a prominent Raleigh lawyer and North Carolina football standout from 1956 to 1960, has been working with Blake.

"Asked directly if Blake had received money from agents while he was coaching, Smith responded: "That's a complicated question. I should not deal with that, with answering that, while the investigations are ongoing.""

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/0...l#ixzz0ykduCTAy

Most connected State guys are saying Wednesday the bottom is going to fall out for UNC. If there is anything you can take from this is that you do not want the NCAA on your campus under any circumstances. As uttered by the beautiful Keisha from Lean on Me, "Mr Clark dont play"

I guess I'm the one with bad reading comprehension skills, as I still don't see any allegations whatsoever of criminal activity in your post or the linked article. Either that or you don't know what the word "criminal" means. But nobody could possibly be that stupid, so I guess my reading comprehension skills are lacking. Maybe you can help out this dumb ole Tar Heel boy and highlight the alleged criminal activity?

 

[Sammy3469]

One down and a ton more to go.

From what I heard today there is still another snowball coming down the hill. UNC has retained Harrington and Smith of Raleigh NC. A very very high profile criminal attorney. Ruh roh shaggy. This gets better with each passing minute.

I assume you mean Tharrington Smith, which handles lots of things other than criminal law according to their website, and is comprised of more than one person, despite your reference to a "high profile criminal attorney." So, not sure why you think that's significant.

Of course, basic reading comprehension and writing skills are probably too much to ask from a graduate of the university that once admitted Chris Washburn.

The details are leaking out. Care to retract that statement about "high profile criminal attorney"?

Efforts to reach Blake and Wichard for comment Sunday evening were unsuccessful. Wade Smith, a prominent Raleigh lawyer and North Carolina football standout from 1956 to 1960, has been working with Blake.

"Asked directly if Blake had received money from agents while he was coaching, Smith responded: "That's a complicated question. I should not deal with that, with answering that, while the investigations are ongoing.""

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/0...l#ixzz0ykduCTAy

Most connected State guys are saying Wednesday the bottom is going to fall out for UNC. If there is anything you can take from this is that you do not want the NCAA on your campus under any circumstances. As uttered by the beautiful Keisha from Lean on Me, "Mr Clark dont play"

I guess I'm the one with bad reading comprehension skills, as I still don't see any allegations whatsoever of criminal activity in your post or the linked article. Either that or you don't know what the word "criminal" means. But nobody could possibly be that stupid, so I guess my reading comprehension skills are lacking. Maybe you can help out this dumb ole Tar Heel boy and highlight the alleged criminal activity?

The criminal activity is agents paying college athletes (its illegal in NC). If Blake received kickbacks from said agent (which he did), its criminal. Blake and the agent (whose name escapes me right now) were/are thick as thieves and have been for ages. Apprently, none of this is really any surprise to anyone that knows how Blake works.

 

[TobiasFunke]

One down and a ton more to go.

From what I heard today there is still another snowball coming down the hill. UNC has retained Harrington and Smith of Raleigh NC. A very very high profile criminal attorney. Ruh roh shaggy. This gets better with each passing minute.

I assume you mean Tharrington Smith, which handles lots of things other than criminal law according to their website, and is comprised of more than one person, despite your reference to a "high profile criminal attorney." So, not sure why you think that's significant.

Of course, basic reading comprehension and writing skills are probably too much to ask from a graduate of the university that once admitted Chris Washburn.

The details are leaking out. Care to retract that statement about "high profile criminal attorney"?

Efforts to reach Blake and Wichard for comment Sunday evening were unsuccessful. Wade Smith, a prominent Raleigh lawyer and North Carolina football standout from 1956 to 1960, has been working with Blake.

"Asked directly if Blake had received money from agents while he was coaching, Smith responded: "That's a complicated question. I should not deal with that, with answering that, while the investigations are ongoing.""

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/0...l#ixzz0ykduCTAy

Most connected State guys are saying Wednesday the bottom is going to fall out for UNC. If there is anything you can take from this is that you do not want the NCAA on your campus under any circumstances. As uttered by the beautiful Keisha from Lean on Me, "Mr Clark dont play"

I guess I'm the one with bad reading comprehension skills, as I still don't see any allegations whatsoever of criminal activity in your post or the linked article. Either that or you don't know what the word "criminal" means. But nobody could possibly be that stupid, so I guess my reading comprehension skills are lacking. Maybe you can help out this dumb ole Tar Heel boy and highlight the alleged criminal activity?

The criminal activity is agents paying college athletes (its illegal in NC). If Blake received kickbacks from said agent (which he did), its criminal. Blake and the agent (whose name escapes me right now) were/are thick as thieves and have been for ages. Apprently, none of this is really any surprise to anyone that knows how Blake works.

I didn't know it was illegal to pay college athletes in NC. What a weird crime. Do you have a cite? Not saying you're wrong, I trust you. It's just strange. I assume it would only apply to athletes at public schools? Also, I still don't see allegations of someone paying an athlete. Not sure how paying Blake would therefore violate such a criminal statute. Again, depends what's actually alleged and what the law says.

 

[TobiasFunke]

By the way, if you're talking about this, the alleged criminal would be the licensed agent, not anyone affiliated with the university.

 

[Sammy3469]

I didn't know it was illegal to pay college athletes in NC. What a weird crime. Do you have a cite? Not saying you're wrong, I trust you. It's just strange. I assume it would only apply to athletes at public schools? Also, I still don't see allegations of someone paying an athlete. Not sure how paying Blake would therefore violate such a criminal statute. Again, depends what's actually alleged and what the law says.

No cite, but there's plenty of stories around citing it. It's basically giving any benefit which would include flying guys down to South Beach to party. At this point Davis is gone (when who knows). He's either a moron or knew about all this all along. Either is indefensible. UNC better hope this is sport specific and not endemic to the athletic dept, but as USC and FSU showed that's highly unlikely (especially with acedemics involved which is usually overseen by the athletic dept).

 

[Sammy3469]

By the way, if you're talking about this, the alleged criminal would be the licensed agent, not anyone affiliated with the university.

Why, but if Blake paid, gave, or setup the benefit on behalf of Wichert and received some kickback from Wichert he'd be covered by the law. In any case, having Austin under oath is not a scenario I'd want if I were UNC. Nothing good can come from it (and it's not like I don't think other programs are dirty...hell I went to Duke when Newton, Price, et al were having their academic problems so it's not like I think any program is 100% clean). Any program put under this much scrunity is going to have something wrong with it (and I say that as a former SEC examiner...every entity does something wrong, it's just a matter of degrees).

 

[TobiasFunke]

By the way, if you're talking about this, the alleged criminal would be the licensed agent, not anyone affiliated with the university.

Why, but if Blake paid, gave, or setup the benefit on behalf of Wichert and received some kickback from Wichert he'd be covered by the law. In any case, having Austin under oath is not a scenario I'd want if I were UNC. Nothing good can come from it (and it's not like I don't think other programs are dirty...hell I went to Duke when Newton, Price, et al were having their academic problems so it's not like I think any program is 100% clean). Any program put under this much scrunity is going to have something wrong with it (and I say that as a former SEC examiner...every entity does something wrong, it's just a matter of degrees).

Are you sure Blake would be covered? Again, I haven't seen the law, but I assume it only covers licensed agents. Is Blake a licensed agent in the state of NC? I sincerely doubt it.Regardless, I would never disagree with the bolded. This is obviously a negative thing for the university and the athletic program. I simply disagreed with pantherclub's implication that UNC or someone at or employed by UNC was going to be charged with a crime (hired a prominent criminal lawyer, etc.). That's a pretty serious thing to imply- it would take this from a standard NCAA scandal to something that is to my knowledge unprecendented.

 

[pantherclub]

Wade Smith is not in Chapel Hill for ####s and giggles Tobias. Its now a big boys game and has turned into a criminal defense. You can plead ignorance or keep your head in the sand as you are doing here but the wrath of not only the NCAA is coming you now have the state of NC involved. If they can prove its a state to state racket well lets just say the Feds would make an appearance and Armageddon would be upon UNC.

 

[pantherclub]

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/8252274/

More bad news for UNC. Greg Little has now hired a lawyer. I cannot remember another NCAA investigation that is stirring up so much legal trouble. I have a funny feeling the NCAA is going to make an example out of UNC. So far this is way worse then USC.

 

[Sammy3469]

First real article with some real facts. If what's in it is true it's goodnight UNC.

N and O Link

Even more than all of Blake and Wichards communication (which should have been monitored by UNC but weren't showing lack of institutional control for any other real findings), it makes the accusation that Balmer (a former UNC player who is a Wichard client) paid for Austin's and Cam Thomas's trip to train at Proactive Sports Performance in the summer of 2009. That puts that entire year at risk and shows that this has been going on for awhile (again showing lack of insitutional control). It also details all of Blake' calls to Wichard's on a UNC issued phone (and there are rumblings that they also communicated over pre-paid phones).

This stuff is real bad (USC ulitmately got busted for even less) and goes beyond just having the kids going back and paying for the trips. This doesn't even really touch on what happened this summer either or anything dealing with the potential academic scandal. How Davis (unless its just to pump him for more info) is still employed is beyond me (and after all the stuff comes out Baddour's gone too if not Thorp). Elaine Marshall (in an election for US Senate) is also going to make an example of Wichard if not also the runners (Blake, Balmer, and maybe Austin) though I'm sure she's using the runners to get at Wichard.

FWIW, this is supposedly just the first salvo on what's going to come out.

 

[pantherclub]

First real article with some real facts. If what's in it is true it's goodnight UNC.

N and O Link

Even more than all of Blake and Wichards communication (which should have been monitored by UNC but weren't showing lack of institutional control for any other real findings), it makes the accusation that Balmer (a former UNC player who is a Wichard client) paid for Austin's and Cam Thomas's trip to train at Proactive Sports Performance in the summer of 2009. That puts that entire year at risk and shows that this has been going on for awhile (again showing lack of insitutional control). It also details all of Blake' calls to Wichard's on a UNC issued phone (and there are rumblings that they also communicated over pre-paid phones).

This stuff is real bad (USC ulitmately got busted for even less) and goes beyond just having the kids going back and paying for the trips. This doesn't even really touch on what happened this summer either or anything dealing with the potential academic scandal. How Davis (unless its just to pump him for more info) is still employed is beyond me (and after all the stuff comes out Baddour's gone too if not Thorp). Elaine Marshall (in an election for US Senate) is also going to make an example of Wichard if not also the runners (Blake, Balmer, and maybe Austin) though I'm sure she's using the runners to get at Wichard.

FWIW, this is supposedly just the first salvo on what's going to come out.

See ya UNC football, its been nice.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

 

[The Commish]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

The first person that came to my mind when all this started surfacing was **** Baddour. Is this the straw? Will they finally be able to get rid of this boob or do you think they like him despite his record of trainwrecks?ETA: This is NOT a piling on question...it's genuine. If he survives this, I'll be shocked and he'll be there a very long time.

 

[Sammy3469]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor? It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

 

[drfeelgood]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor? It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

The N & O generally treats UNC like media darlings, and so it's very doubtful they are haters. I'm sure Inside Carolina is completely objective.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

I'll give you the courtesy of a response, but I'm checking out after this so Just Win and pantherclub and the rest can continue their hate-in:

If we assume every single fact stated in the N&O article is true- and I'm happy to do that, it's a good paper- then there are still no crimes or even any new NCAA violations alleged in it. The article says something about potential repercussions for Blake under a UNC law if something happened, but makes no claim that it did and offers no evidence suggesting it did. There's nothing in there suggesting any problems whatsoever for the basketball team, nothing in there about program-wide issues, nothing new about the tutoring scandal, nothing in there suggesting Butch Davis was going to be fired soon, etc.

I'm embarrassed for my school. Even if the only bad actors were the since-fired assistant coach, a few of the players, and maybe a tutor, they still did those things as UNC students/employees and that's not acceptable. There should have been better oversight/control in place. I expect that several players will miss more games, and it's certainly possible that some or all 2009 wins will be forfeited and there may even be sanctions. I wouldn't even be opposed to the team ditching Butch at the end of the year. I don't think he did anything wrong, but oversight and control is his responsibility, and if we're gonna hold people like Coach Calipari responsible for all the bad things that happen under his watch- which I do- then we should hold Butch Davis responsible too.

But suggesting that this is the biggest college football scandal ever is beyond silly. And so is spreading rumors started on Packpride that the basketball team will be implicated when there's absolutely nothing to suggest that.

 

[pantherclub]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

I'll give you the courtesy of a response, but I'm checking out after this so Just Win and pantherclub and the rest can continue their hate-in:

If we assume every single fact stated in the N&O article is true- and I'm happy to do that, it's a good paper- then there are still no crimes or even any new NCAA violations alleged in it. The article says something about potential repercussions for Blake under a UNC law if something happened, but makes no claim that it did and offers no evidence suggesting it did. There's nothing in there suggesting any problems whatsoever for the basketball team, nothing in there about program-wide issues, nothing new about the tutoring scandal, nothing in there suggesting Butch Davis was going to be fired soon, etc.

I'm embarrassed for my school. Even if the only bad actors were the since-fired assistant coach, a few of the players, and maybe a tutor, they still did those things as UNC students/alum and that's not acceptable. There should have been better oversight/control in place. I expect that several players will miss more games, and it's certainly possible that some or all 2009 wins will be forfeited and there may even be sanctions. I wouldn't even be opposed to the team ditching Butch at the end of the year. I don't think he did anything wrong, but oversight and control is his responsibility, and if we're gonna hold people like Coach Calipari responsible for all the bad things that happen under his watch- which I do- then we should hold Butch Davis responsible too.

But suggesting that this is the biggest college football scandal ever is beyond silly. And so is spreading rumors started on Packpride that the basketball team will be implicated when there's absolutely nothing to suggest that.

After I read this post I picture Tobias putting his fingers in his ears saying "lalalalalalalalalalalala I cant hear you lalalalalalalalalalalala"I am sure you were this reasonable when the NCAA was bending State over in the 80's. You continue to ignore the evidence about criminal activity. Simple question, why is Roger Smith, the head honcho of Tharrington and Smith, working with UNC and Blake? What possible scenario can you give me that doesnt include criminal activity?

It totally shows your bias when you dont think Butch has done anything wrong. The dude hired blake and he hired the tutor in question. Those are 2 huge details you conveniently are overlooking. Blake had a rep way before UNC so Butch knew what he was doing. As for the basketball team being implicated, wasnt Little on the roster the past 3 years? Whoopsie.

 

[Sammy3469]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

I'll give you the courtesy of a response, but I'm checking out after this so Just Win and pantherclub and the rest can continue their hate-in:

If we assume every single fact stated in the N&O article is true- and I'm happy to do that, it's a good paper- then there are still no crimes or even any new NCAA violations alleged in it. The article says something about potential repercussions for Blake under a UNC law if something happened, but makes no claim that it did and offers no evidence suggesting it did. There's nothing in there suggesting any problems whatsoever for the basketball team, nothing in there about program-wide issues, nothing new about the tutoring scandal, nothing in there suggesting Butch Davis was going to be fired soon, etc.

I'm embarrassed for my school. Even if the only bad actors were the since-fired assistant coach, a few of the players, and maybe a tutor, they still did those things as UNC students/alum and that's not acceptable. There should have been better oversight/control in place. I expect that several players will miss more games, and it's certainly possible that some or all 2009 wins will be forfeited and there may even be sanctions. I wouldn't even be opposed to the team ditching Butch at the end of the year. I don't think he did anything wrong, but oversight and control is his responsibility, and if we're gonna hold people like Coach Calipari responsible for all the bad things that happen under his watch- which I do- then we should hold Butch Davis responsible too.

But suggesting that this is the biggest college football scandal ever is beyond silly. And so is spreading rumors started on Packpride that the basketball team will be implicated when there's absolutely nothing to suggest that.

FWIW those two things don't compute. I don't think think that 2009 trip has been disclosed anywhere before and its a much larger problem (simply because it shows that the summer of 2010 wasn't a one-off thing) than you want to admit.I will grant you this though, this certainly doesn't rise to to the level of Miami or SMU.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

I'll give you the courtesy of a response, but I'm checking out after this so Just Win and pantherclub and the rest can continue their hate-in:

If we assume every single fact stated in the N&O article is true- and I'm happy to do that, it's a good paper- then there are still no crimes or even any new NCAA violations alleged in it. The article says something about potential repercussions for Blake under a UNC law if something happened, but makes no claim that it did and offers no evidence suggesting it did. There's nothing in there suggesting any problems whatsoever for the basketball team, nothing in there about program-wide issues, nothing new about the tutoring scandal, nothing in there suggesting Butch Davis was going to be fired soon, etc.

I'm embarrassed for my school. Even if the only bad actors were the since-fired assistant coach, a few of the players, and maybe a tutor, they still did those things as UNC students/alum and that's not acceptable. There should have been better oversight/control in place. I expect that several players will miss more games, and it's certainly possible that some or all 2009 wins will be forfeited and there may even be sanctions. I wouldn't even be opposed to the team ditching Butch at the end of the year. I don't think he did anything wrong, but oversight and control is his responsibility, and if we're gonna hold people like Coach Calipari responsible for all the bad things that happen under his watch- which I do- then we should hold Butch Davis responsible too.

But suggesting that this is the biggest college football scandal ever is beyond silly. And so is spreading rumors started on Packpride that the basketball team will be implicated when there's absolutely nothing to suggest that.

FWIW those two things don't compute. I don't think think that 2009 trip has been disclosed anywhere before and its a much larger problem (simply because it shows that the summer of 2010 wasn't a one-off thing) than you want to admit.I will grant you this though, this certainly doesn't rise to to the level of Miami or SMU.

I didn't distinguish the 2009 trip from the one that was already known. So you're right, that's something new in the N&O article. No criminal charges, nothing indicting the basketball team or the athletic department, etc.

FYI- here's the statute in question. As you can see, only activities under 78C-98(a) can give rise to criminal penalties. So for Blake to be charged, it would have to be shown not only that he was an athlete agent (i.e. he recruiting of solicited athletes to sign an agency contract), but also that he gave false or misleading information to an athlete or gave them or their families/friends items of value to convince them to sign. I've never seen any allegation like that about Blake.

 

[pantherclub]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

I'll give you the courtesy of a response, but I'm checking out after this so Just Win and pantherclub and the rest can continue their hate-in:

If we assume every single fact stated in the N&O article is true- and I'm happy to do that, it's a good paper- then there are still no crimes or even any new NCAA violations alleged in it. The article says something about potential repercussions for Blake under a UNC law if something happened, but makes no claim that it did and offers no evidence suggesting it did. There's nothing in there suggesting any problems whatsoever for the basketball team, nothing in there about program-wide issues, nothing new about the tutoring scandal, nothing in there suggesting Butch Davis was going to be fired soon, etc.

I'm embarrassed for my school. Even if the only bad actors were the since-fired assistant coach, a few of the players, and maybe a tutor, they still did those things as UNC students/alum and that's not acceptable. There should have been better oversight/control in place. I expect that several players will miss more games, and it's certainly possible that some or all 2009 wins will be forfeited and there may even be sanctions. I wouldn't even be opposed to the team ditching Butch at the end of the year. I don't think he did anything wrong, but oversight and control is his responsibility, and if we're gonna hold people like Coach Calipari responsible for all the bad things that happen under his watch- which I do- then we should hold Butch Davis responsible too.

But suggesting that this is the biggest college football scandal ever is beyond silly. And so is spreading rumors started on Packpride that the basketball team will be implicated when there's absolutely nothing to suggest that.

FWIW those two things don't compute. I don't think think that 2009 trip has been disclosed anywhere before and its a much larger problem (simply because it shows that the summer of 2010 wasn't a one-off thing) than you want to admit.

I will grant you this though, this certainly doesn't rise to to the level of Miami or SMU.

Maybe not yet. Lets do a recap. So far we have allegations of runners between agents and college players, assistant coaches working for and with agents, major recruiting violations and the academic scandal. Each one in itself is bad enough but put them all together and it spells bad news. Plus there is the NC Sec of State doing her own investigation and subpoenaing players and the very faint whispers of money laundering. No matter how UNC or Tobias try to spin this or call people haters, this is incredibly bad for UNC football and I doubt they ever recover.

 

[Sammy3469]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor?

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

I'll give you the courtesy of a response, but I'm checking out after this so Just Win and pantherclub and the rest can continue their hate-in:

If we assume every single fact stated in the N&O article is true- and I'm happy to do that, it's a good paper- then there are still no crimes or even any new NCAA violations alleged in it. The article says something about potential repercussions for Blake under a UNC law if something happened, but makes no claim that it did and offers no evidence suggesting it did. There's nothing in there suggesting any problems whatsoever for the basketball team, nothing in there about program-wide issues, nothing new about the tutoring scandal, nothing in there suggesting Butch Davis was going to be fired soon, etc.

I'm embarrassed for my school. Even if the only bad actors were the since-fired assistant coach, a few of the players, and maybe a tutor, they still did those things as UNC students/alum and that's not acceptable. There should have been better oversight/control in place. I expect that several players will miss more games, and it's certainly possible that some or all 2009 wins will be forfeited and there may even be sanctions. I wouldn't even be opposed to the team ditching Butch at the end of the year. I don't think he did anything wrong, but oversight and control is his responsibility, and if we're gonna hold people like Coach Calipari responsible for all the bad things that happen under his watch- which I do- then we should hold Butch Davis responsible too.

But suggesting that this is the biggest college football scandal ever is beyond silly. And so is spreading rumors started on Packpride that the basketball team will be implicated when there's absolutely nothing to suggest that.

FWIW those two things don't compute. I don't think think that 2009 trip has been disclosed anywhere before and its a much larger problem (simply because it shows that the summer of 2010 wasn't a one-off thing) than you want to admit.I will grant you this though, this certainly doesn't rise to to the level of Miami or SMU.

I didn't distinguish the 2009 trip from the one that was already known. So you're right, that's something new in the N&O article. No criminal charges, nothing indicting the basketball team or the athletic department, etc.

FYI- here's the statute in question. As you can see, only activities under 78C-98(a) can give rise to criminal penalties. So for Blake to be charged, it would have to be shown not only that he was an athlete agent (i.e. he recruiting of solicited athletes to sign an agency contract), but also that he gave false or misleading information to an athlete or gave them or their families/friends items of value to convince them to sign. I've never seen any allegation like that about Blake.

It's pretty hard for me to dimiss all those calls as "not recruiting or soliciting athletes to sign an agency contract". Like you said though the big issue is proving if any money changed hands and if so from whom to whom (its debatable if the trips constitute "money"). I said it above and I'll say it again here, UNC problem now isn't so much these exact allegations, its the fact that now others are starting to call for independant investigations and the NCAA. Once that happens, who knows what they find and how they interpret what they find (and they will find something, there's no program in the NCAA that's totally clean).

 

[drfeelgood]

No matter how UNC or Tobias try to spin this or call people haters, this is incredibly bad for UNC football and I doubt they ever recover.

Whatever happens with UNC, they will recover whether it be sooner or later.

 

[TobiasFunke]

It's pretty hard for me to dimiss all those calls as "not recruiting or soliciting athletes to sign an agency contract". Like you said though the big issue is proving if any money changed hands and if so from whom to whom (its debatable if the trips constitute "money"). I said it above and I'll say it again here, UNC problem now isn't so much these exact allegations, its the fact that now others are starting to call for independant investigations and the NCAA. Once that happens, who knows what they find and how they interpret what they find (and they will find something, there's no program in the NCAA that's totally clean).

Which calls are you talking about? It's all about what Blake, as a potential athlete/agent under the statute, would have given to the players. I don't see anything suggesting he did. Not sure how an agent calling a coach over and over means the coach then gave money or something to the players. That seems like a huge leap.This the only thing from the N&O regarding actual legal problems (as opposed to NCAA/UNC rules violations)-

Blake’s lawyers have declined to say whether Blake accepted money from an agent while he was coaching. If he has accepted money, he could be prosecuted as an unregistered “runner” for an agent in North Carolina Secretary of State Elaine Marshall’s investigation of possible violations of the state’s Uniform Athlete Agent Act.

All that does is make him an unregistered athlete agent. If I'm looking at the right statute- and I'm pretty sure I am- that is not a criminal offense. The law is pretty clear on that.

 

[pantherclub]

No matter how UNC or Tobias try to spin this or call people haters, this is incredibly bad for UNC football and I doubt they ever recover.

Whatever happens with UNC, they will recover whether it be sooner or later.

I doubt the powers that be at UNC will ever take a risk on a football coach again. The faculty already complain about paying so much for a coach and upgrading the stadium when the money could be used for academic purposes. This little episode will just add fuel to the fire. UNC will have to hire a straight and narrow coach to come in and clean up the mess and that will probably set the program back at least 5 years. Do you think they are going to be letting in the Greg Littles and Marvin Austins of the world anytime soon? I seriously doubt it.

 

[pantherclub]

It's pretty hard for me to dimiss all those calls as "not recruiting or soliciting athletes to sign an agency contract". Like you said though the big issue is proving if any money changed hands and if so from whom to whom (its debatable if the trips constitute "money").

I said it above and I'll say it again here, UNC problem now isn't so much these exact allegations, its the fact that now others are starting to call for independant investigations and the NCAA. Once that happens, who knows what they find and how they interpret what they find (and they will find something, there's no program in the NCAA that's totally clean).

Which calls are you talking about? It's all about what Blake, as a potential athlete/agent under the statute, would have given to the players. I don't see anything suggesting he did. Not sure how an agent calling a coach over and over means the coach then gave money or something to the players. That seems like a huge leap.

This the only thing from the N&O regarding actual legal problems (as opposed to NCAA/UNC rules violations)-

Blake’s lawyers have declined to say whether Blake accepted money from an agent while he was coaching. If he has accepted money, he could be prosecuted as an unregistered “runner” for an agent in North Carolina Secretary of State Elaine Marshall’s investigation of possible violations of the state’s Uniform Athlete Agent Act.

All that does is make him an unregistered athlete agent. If I'm looking at the right statute- and I'm pretty sure I am- that is not a criminal offense. The law is pretty clear on that.

So what you are saying is, if an agent is giving an assistant coach money for who knows what, then there isnt really a problem with that? Is that what you are saying here because I really dont think you want to go there.

 

[The Commish]

No matter how UNC or Tobias try to spin this or call people haters, this is incredibly bad for UNC football and I doubt they ever recover.

Whatever happens with UNC, they will recover whether it be sooner or later.

I doubt the powers that be at UNC will ever take a risk on a football coach again. The faculty already complain about paying so much for a coach and upgrading the stadium when the money could be used for academic purposes. This little episode will just add fuel to the fire. UNC will have to hire a straight and narrow coach to come in and clean up the mess and that will probably set the program back at least 5 years. Do you think they are going to be letting in the Greg Littles and Marvin Austins of the world anytime soon? I seriously doubt it.

So which is it? They will NEVER recover, or it will take 5 years to get the program "back" (whatever the hell that means)?

 

[pantherclub]

No matter how UNC or Tobias try to spin this or call people haters, this is incredibly bad for UNC football and I doubt they ever recover.

Whatever happens with UNC, they will recover whether it be sooner or later.

I doubt the powers that be at UNC will ever take a risk on a football coach again. The faculty already complain about paying so much for a coach and upgrading the stadium when the money could be used for academic purposes. This little episode will just add fuel to the fire. UNC will have to hire a straight and narrow coach to come in and clean up the mess and that will probably set the program back at least 5 years. Do you think they are going to be letting in the Greg Littles and Marvin Austins of the world anytime soon? I seriously doubt it.

So which is it? They will NEVER recover, or it will take 5 years to get the program "back" (whatever the hell that means)?

Back = 7/8 wins a year which is what they are doing now.I doubt they will ever recover enough to start letting the borderline students in like DJones, Marvin Austin and Greg Little. Not many schools can win with tight academic restrictions. I can maybe count 5 on my hand and that is stretching it.

 

[The Commish]

No matter how UNC or Tobias try to spin this or call people haters, this is incredibly bad for UNC football and I doubt they ever recover.

Whatever happens with UNC, they will recover whether it be sooner or later.

I doubt the powers that be at UNC will ever take a risk on a football coach again. The faculty already complain about paying so much for a coach and upgrading the stadium when the money could be used for academic purposes. This little episode will just add fuel to the fire. UNC will have to hire a straight and narrow coach to come in and clean up the mess and that will probably set the program back at least 5 years. Do you think they are going to be letting in the Greg Littles and Marvin Austins of the world anytime soon? I seriously doubt it.

So which is it? They will NEVER recover, or it will take 5 years to get the program "back" (whatever the hell that means)?

Back = 7/8 wins a year which is what they are doing now.I doubt they will ever recover enough to start letting the borderline students in like DJones, Marvin Austin and Greg Little. Not many schools can win with tight academic restrictions. I can maybe count 5 on my hand and that is stretching it.

Probably not what you intended but funny nonetheless. I'll give you this...you use some bizarre terms trying to establish your point...for UNC it's not about letting in "borderline students", but the cheating they did when they got here.

 

[pantherclub]

You dont see the connection between the two?

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor? It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

So nothing the News and Observer says is true?

The N & O generally treats UNC like media darlings, and so it's very doubtful they are haters. I'm sure Inside Carolina is completely objective.

I didn't mean to suggest Inside Carolina was objective- of course it isn't. I was offering to tell people what the UNC insiders were saying, since it's a pay service. Just a friendly offer to my fellow FBGs who are interested.

 

[Tau837]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor? It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

IMO pantherclub is really the only poster in this thread who hasn't been interested in rational discussion of facts. Yes, I've posted some things from statefansnation. So what? On this page I posted quotes I found there that were from other boards, including supposedly from the Inside Carolina board, and I denoted them as such. You are free to discount them if you like.Then I posted an article calling for an independent investigation, like the one that was performed at the end of Valvano's tenure, essentially because of a book written by a former student manager who had an axe to grind. There is apparently a lot more going on with the UNC program right now that warrants investigation than was happening at State at that time. They are both public institutions in the state of NC, why not treat them the same?I haven't "made up facts" at all, nor have I exaggerated anything. I have linked several articles, including multiple articles from the N&O and other sites like Sportsline. I assume you are generally ranting against pantherclub here, and just lumping all other State fans together with him.It actually looks to me like you are the one who doesn't want to have a rational discussion about what is going on. Is that because it's easier just to come in and condemn most of those posting in the thread than to discuss the troubling facts?

 

[H.K.]

So what are the potential ramifications here?

Looks like Davis has a clause in his contract that could lead to his dismissal if this stuff is true.

What would the NCAA do about this? Probation and take a few scholarships?

 

[3C's]

After I read this post I picture Tobias putting his fingers in his ears saying "lalalalalalalalalalalala I cant hear you lalalalalalalalalalalala"

my picture of pantherclubhttp://images.icanhascheezburger.com/compl...24308981647.jpg

 

[randall146]

When they talk about "could leak over to other revenue sports" what else is there besides basketball? Can Carolina possibly make money on soccer or lax?

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I see we've dropped the conversation about criminal charges and suggesting that the basketball program will be in trouble, and we've moved on to quoting articles from www.statefansnation.com. Why no follow-up on the allegations of criminal conduct? Or how about the guy saying Butch Davis would be gone by the end of the month- no comment on the vote of confidence from the AD and the Chancellor? It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

IMO pantherclub is really the only poster in this thread who hasn't been interested in rational discussion of facts. Yes, I've posted some things from statefansnation. So what? On this page I posted quotes I found there that were from other boards, including supposedly from the Inside Carolina board, and I denoted them as such. You are free to discount them if you like.Then I posted an article calling for an independent investigation, like the one that was performed at the end of Valvano's tenure, essentially because of a book written by a former student manager who had an axe to grind. There is apparently a lot more going on with the UNC program right now that warrants investigation than was happening at State at that time. They are both public institutions in the state of NC, why not treat them the same?I haven't "made up facts" at all, nor have I exaggerated anything. I have linked several articles, including multiple articles from the N&O and other sites like Sportsline. I assume you are generally ranting against pantherclub here, and just lumping all other State fans together with him.It actually looks to me like you are the one who doesn't want to have a rational discussion about what is going on. Is that because it's easier just to come in and condemn most of those posting in the thread than to discuss the troubling facts?

You quoted something from statefansnation without bothering to identify it. It was an article calling for an investigation into UNC athletics. Unless the reader clicks on the link they're left with the impression that some credible journalist from a credible news source was calling for the investigation. It's hard to read that as anything other than an attempt by you to trash UNC.I've been discussing the facts as much or more than anyone else. I'm the only one who bothered to do the analysis of the law after others made baseless claims that there was criminal activity. I posted what I heard through the grapevine about ineligible players. I posted my own thoughts about the program and my embarrassment. Not sure how you can construe that as "not discussing the troubling facts." It's totally fine if people want to hate and talk trash- hatred and rivalries are part of sports. But this thread has become primarily about that, instead of primarily about the actual facts behind the scandal, and since I don't want to read a thread like that, and the "ignore" feature only goes so far, I was just telling people who were interested in the facts I'd be happy to keep talking to them elsewhere. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Tau837]

It's pretty clear that most of the participants in this thread have no interest in reasonable discussion of the facts, but are actually here to just make up bad stuff about UNC or exaggerate wildly so their fellow haters can pleasure themselves to it, and then when they get called out for it they just drop it and move on to the next made-up story. I'll leave you all to it. If any reasonable sports fans want to hear what's being said by the UNC people at Inside Carolina, PM me and I'll be happy to share it with you.

IMO pantherclub is really the only poster in this thread who hasn't been interested in rational discussion of facts. Yes, I've posted some things from statefansnation. So what? On this page I posted quotes I found there that were from other boards, including supposedly from the Inside Carolina board, and I denoted them as such. You are free to discount them if you like.Then I posted an article calling for an independent investigation, like the one that was performed at the end of Valvano's tenure, essentially because of a book written by a former student manager who had an axe to grind. There is apparently a lot more going on with the UNC program right now that warrants investigation than was happening at State at that time. They are both public institutions in the state of NC, why not treat them the same?I haven't "made up facts" at all, nor have I exaggerated anything. I have linked several articles, including multiple articles from the N&O and other sites like Sportsline. I assume you are generally ranting against pantherclub here, and just lumping all other State fans together with him.It actually looks to me like you are the one who doesn't want to have a rational discussion about what is going on. Is that because it's easier just to come in and condemn most of those posting in the thread than to discuss the troubling facts?

You quoted something from statefansnation without bothering to identify it. It was an article calling for an investigation into UNC athletics. Unless the reader clicks on the link they're left with the impression that some credible journalist from a credible news source was calling for the investigation. It's hard to read that as anything other than an attempt by you to trash UNC.I've been discussing the facts as much or more than anyone else. I'm the only one who bothered to do the analysis of the law after others made baseless claims that there was criminal activity. I posted what I heard through the grapevine about ineligible players. I posted my own thoughts about the program and my embarrassment. Not sure how you can construe that as "not discussing the troubling facts." It's totally fine if people want to hate and talk trash- hatred and rivalries are part of sports. But this thread has become primarily about that, instead of primarily about the actual facts behind the scandal, and since I don't want to read a thread like that, and the "ignore" feature only goes so far, I was just telling people who were interested in the facts I'd be happy to keep talking to them elsewhere. Hope that makes sense.

I put a link to the original article. Anyone who wants to know the source can see it right there... by clicking it or hovering over it. This is the same method I have used on this board for years to link any article or article excerpt from any source. I've done it numerous times in this thread. If that says to you it was an attempt to trash UNC, you obviously have a biased perspective to think that (such as "every State fan's every post on this subject is to trash UNC").There have been plenty of StateFansNation articles written on this, and I've linked or posted excerpts from very little of it here, since a lot of it could rightfully be characterized as "hating". In this case, I posted the excerpt from that article because I agree that what is fair for State is fair for UNC. Especially given that one of the NCAA representatives initially involved in the case is a UNC grad.

I've been discussing the facts as much or more than anyone else. I'm the only one who bothered to do the analysis of the law after others made baseless claims that there was criminal activity. I posted what I heard through the grapevine about ineligible players. I posted my own thoughts about the program and my embarrassment. Not sure how you can construe that as "not discussing the troubling facts." It's totally fine if people want to hate and talk trash- hatred and rivalries are part of sports. But this thread has become primarily about that, instead of primarily about the actual facts behind the scandal, and since I don't want to read a thread like that, and the "ignore" feature only goes so far, I was just telling people who were interested in the facts I'd be happy to keep talking to them elsewhere. Hope that makes sense.

That part of my post was in reaction to you saying you weren't going to participate any more and saying most posters in the thread were just hating, etc. If you stick around and continue discussing, then my comment is inapplicable.

 

[TobiasFunke]

That part of my post was in reaction to you saying you weren't going to participate any more and saying most posters in the thread were just hating, etc. If you stick around and continue discussing, then my comment is inapplicable.

I like and respect you and Sammy, so I reply to you guys out of courtesy.

 

[pantherclub]

Dickie Baddour - "WE WILL HAVE SOME VIOLATIONS"

The hits just keep on coming. Why in the world would he go on sports talk radio and say that? From the scuttlebutt today there is a world of crap coming down for UNC.

 

[Eastwood]

maybe Lawrence Taylor could be the next coach of the football team?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

maybe Lawrence Taylor could be the next coach of the football team?

"Coach, are the goal lines really coke?""Get there and find out jackass!"

 

[Tau837]

That part of my post was in reaction to you saying you weren't going to participate any more and saying most posters in the thread were just hating, etc. If you stick around and continue discussing, then my comment is inapplicable.

I like and respect you and Sammy, so I reply to you guys out of courtesy.

Well, thanks for that.

 

[Tau837]

A small excerpt from StateFansNation:

In 1989, the investigation [into N.C. State] was multi-faceted, including seperate inquiries by the NCAA, The Poole Commission, and also the Attorney General’s office into the University. So why is there no protocol for doing the same when accusations have been leveled against Carolina when, clearly, the precedent for this type of investigation exists?

There is much more there that discusses details of those 1989 investigations. It seems very likely at this point that UNC's violations are significantly worse than State's violations back then.It's a simple question. Why was it appropriate then but not now? UNC is investigating itself. Is that really appropriate?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

A small excerpt from StateFansNation:

In 1989, the investigation [into N.C. State] was multi-faceted, including seperate inquiries by the NCAA, The Poole Commission, and also the Attorney General’s office into the University. So why is there no protocol for doing the same when accusations have been leveled against Carolina when, clearly, the precedent for this type of investigation exists?

There is much more there that discusses details of those 1989 investigations. It seems very likely at this point that UNC's violations are significantly worse than State's violations back then.It's a simple question. Why was it appropriate then but not now? UNC is investigating itself. Is that really appropriate?

No idea, but I do know that almost all schools with issues like this do launch an internal investigation and "self report". I don't that the state attorney general usually gets involved though. It's just whether there are other outside investigators. I don't think there often are. Not to say there shouldn't be in this case, but I'm pretty sure the state attorney general's office in California, Michigan or West Virginia didn't get involved in those schools' investigations. Really, shouldn't they have better things to do?

 

[Tau837]

A small excerpt from StateFansNation:

In 1989, the investigation [into N.C. State] was multi-faceted, including seperate inquiries by the NCAA, The Poole Commission, and also the Attorney General’s office into the University. So why is there no protocol for doing the same when accusations have been leveled against Carolina when, clearly, the precedent for this type of investigation exists?

There is much more there that discusses details of those 1989 investigations. It seems very likely at this point that UNC's violations are significantly worse than State's violations back then.It's a simple question. Why was it appropriate then but not now? UNC is investigating itself. Is that really appropriate?

No idea, but I do know that almost all schools with issues like this do launch an internal investigation and "self report". I don't that the state attorney general usually gets involved though. It's just whether there are other outside investigators. I don't think there often are. Not to say there shouldn't be in this case, but I'm pretty sure the state attorney general's office in California, Michigan or West Virginia didn't get involved in those schools' investigations. Really, shouldn't they have better things to do?

I'm not saying UNC should not conduct its own investigation. I'm saying that it appears to be a double standard that two state investigations were conducted of State's program in 1989 in addition to State's internal investigation and the NCAA investigation... yet the state has shown no signs of performing similar investigations of the UNC program, which appears to have committed much more serious violations than State had back then.What happened in 1989 set State's program back for 10-20 years, depending on your perspective. And the UNC systems president and the UNC board of governors were pretty vocal about it back then, including making comments that Valvano should be removed from his AD position. For what amounted to a lot of smoke and very lilttle fire - players selling shoes and complimentary tickets without the coaches' knowledge. I'm not seeing that same kind of public pressure put on UNC so far, despite much more serious allegations. Why is that?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

A small excerpt from StateFansNation:

In 1989, the investigation [into N.C. State] was multi-faceted, including seperate inquiries by the NCAA, The Poole Commission, and also the Attorney General’s office into the University. So why is there no protocol for doing the same when accusations have been leveled against Carolina when, clearly, the precedent for this type of investigation exists?

There is much more there that discusses details of those 1989 investigations. It seems very likely at this point that UNC's violations are significantly worse than State's violations back then.It's a simple question. Why was it appropriate then but not now? UNC is investigating itself. Is that really appropriate?

No idea, but I do know that almost all schools with issues like this do launch an internal investigation and "self report". I don't that the state attorney general usually gets involved though. It's just whether there are other outside investigators. I don't think there often are. Not to say there shouldn't be in this case, but I'm pretty sure the state attorney general's office in California, Michigan or West Virginia didn't get involved in those schools' investigations. Really, shouldn't they have better things to do?

I'm not saying UNC should not conduct its own investigation. I'm saying that it appears to be a double standard that two state investigations were conducted of State's program in 1989 in addition to State's internal investigation and the NCAA investigation... yet the state has shown no signs of performing similar investigations of the UNC program, which appears to have committed much more serious violations than State had back then.What happened in 1989 set State's program back for 10-20 years, depending on your perspective. And the UNC systems president and the UNC board of governors were pretty vocal about it back then, including making comments that Valvano should be removed from his AD position. For what amounted to a lot of smoke and very lilttle fire - players selling shoes and complimentary tickets without the coaches' knowledge. I'm not seeing that same kind of public pressure put on UNC so far, despite much more serious allegations. Why is that?

Well, there could be several reasons. One is that maybe investigations of this type have changed and, unfortunately, become more commonplace. So maybe getting everyone involved and up in arms just isn't done anymore. Or maybe the state secretly likes UNC better than NC State and is purposefully taking it easy on them. I'm leaning toward the former, but you seem to lean toward the latter. And really, that's what is so sad about the NC State fans reaction here: It's like my kids pointing at each other and saying that if she got something that I should get the same thing. Life just doesn't always work that way guys. I don't know whether the NC State issues were more serious or less serious than UNC's current issues (although they seem to have been less serious). But I do know that times have changed and methods may have changed and yelling from the rooftops that Tommy got to play with the toy for 15 minutes and you want the exact same thing makes you look sort of childish. Just my opinion though.

 

[BassNBrew]

A small excerpt from StateFansNation:

In 1989, the investigation [into N.C. State] was multi-faceted, including seperate inquiries by the NCAA, The Poole Commission, and also the Attorney General’s office into the University. So why is there no protocol for doing the same when accusations have been leveled against Carolina when, clearly, the precedent for this type of investigation exists?

There is much more there that discusses details of those 1989 investigations. It seems very likely at this point that UNC's violations are significantly worse than State's violations back then.It's a simple question. Why was it appropriate then but not now? UNC is investigating itself. Is that really appropriate?

No idea, but I do know that almost all schools with issues like this do launch an internal investigation and "self report". I don't that the state attorney general usually gets involved though. It's just whether there are other outside investigators. I don't think there often are. Not to say there shouldn't be in this case, but I'm pretty sure the state attorney general's office in California, Michigan or West Virginia didn't get involved in those schools' investigations. Really, shouldn't they have better things to do?

I'm not saying UNC should not conduct its own investigation. I'm saying that it appears to be a double standard that two state investigations were conducted of State's program in 1989 in addition to State's internal investigation and the NCAA investigation... yet the state has shown no signs of performing similar investigations of the UNC program, which appears to have committed much more serious violations than State had back then.What happened in 1989 set State's program back for 10-20 years, depending on your perspective. And the UNC systems president and the UNC board of governors were pretty vocal about it back then, including making comments that Valvano should be removed from his AD position. For what amounted to a lot of smoke and very lilttle fire - players selling shoes and complimentary tickets without the coaches' knowledge. I'm not seeing that same kind of public pressure put on UNC so far, despite much more serious allegations. Why is that?

Democrats have taken over the state and we know they're soft on crime. I propose a 1/2 cent state sales tax increase to fund an investigation.

 

[Tau837]

A small excerpt from StateFansNation:

In 1989, the investigation [into N.C. State] was multi-faceted, including seperate inquiries by the NCAA, The Poole Commission, and also the Attorney General’s office into the University. So why is there no protocol for doing the same when accusations have been leveled against Carolina when, clearly, the precedent for this type of investigation exists?

There is much more there that discusses details of those 1989 investigations. It seems very likely at this point that UNC's violations are significantly worse than State's violations back then.It's a simple question. Why was it appropriate then but not now? UNC is investigating itself. Is that really appropriate?

No idea, but I do know that almost all schools with issues like this do launch an internal investigation and "self report". I don't that the state attorney general usually gets involved though. It's just whether there are other outside investigators. I don't think there often are. Not to say there shouldn't be in this case, but I'm pretty sure the state attorney general's office in California, Michigan or West Virginia didn't get involved in those schools' investigations. Really, shouldn't they have better things to do?

I'm not saying UNC should not conduct its own investigation. I'm saying that it appears to be a double standard that two state investigations were conducted of State's program in 1989 in addition to State's internal investigation and the NCAA investigation... yet the state has shown no signs of performing similar investigations of the UNC program, which appears to have committed much more serious violations than State had back then.What happened in 1989 set State's program back for 10-20 years, depending on your perspective. And the UNC systems president and the UNC board of governors were pretty vocal about it back then, including making comments that Valvano should be removed from his AD position. For what amounted to a lot of smoke and very lilttle fire - players selling shoes and complimentary tickets without the coaches' knowledge. I'm not seeing that same kind of public pressure put on UNC so far, despite much more serious allegations. Why is that?

Well, there could be several reasons. One is that maybe investigations of this type have changed and, unfortunately, become more commonplace. So maybe getting everyone involved and up in arms just isn't done anymore. Or maybe the state secretly likes UNC better than NC State and is purposefully taking it easy on them. I'm leaning toward the former, but you seem to lean toward the latter. And really, that's what is so sad about the NC State fans reaction here: It's like my kids pointing at each other and saying that if she got something that I should get the same thing. Life just doesn't always work that way guys. I don't know whether the NC State issues were more serious or less serious than UNC's current issues (although they seem to have been less serious). But I do know that times have changed and methods may have changed and yelling from the rooftops that Tommy got to play with the toy for 15 minutes and you want the exact same thing makes you look sort of childish. Just my opinion though.

You think I'm yelling from rooftops? I have simply pointed out an obvious double standard and raised questions about it. Then I explained it when you asked. You think I'm being childish about it? That's disappointing, since I respect your opinions.By the way, I reject your notion that these investigations have become more commonplace and thus aren't pursued with the same level of effort nowadays. We're talking about investigations of state universities within the state of North Carolina. I'm not aware of any state university in North Carolina being investigated for serious allegations involving their athletic departments since 1989. Someone please correct me if I'm forgetting such instances.You reject the notion that favoritism can be shown as if it is an absurd notion. It happens every day at all levels of government, including state government. C.D. Spangler was the president of the UNC system back then, overseeing 16 campuses that included UNC and N.C. State. He publicly called for Valvano to be removed as AD back then. He is a UNC graduate. You don't think he could have been biased in any way? And that's just one example.Yes, things may have changed for various reasons. Most importantly, different people are in all relevant positions today, and different people can reasonably handle things differently. However, IMO these are legitimate questions that should be addressed given the past history within the state. If there is a reason to handle it differently this time, fine, let's hear it.

 

[omally]

You think I'm yelling from rooftops? I have simply pointed out an obvious double standard and raised questions about it. Then I explained it when you asked. You think I'm being childish about it? That's disappointing, since I respect your opinions.By the way, I reject your notion that these investigations have become more commonplace and thus aren't pursued with the same level of effort nowadays. We're talking about investigations of state universities within the state of North Carolina. I'm not aware of any state university in North Carolina being investigated for serious allegations involving their athletic departments since 1989. Someone please correct me if I'm forgetting such instances.You reject the notion that favoritism can be shown as if it is an absurd notion. It happens every day at all levels of government, including state government. C.D. Spangler was the president of the UNC system back then, overseeing 16 campuses that included UNC and N.C. State. He publicly called for Valvano to be removed as AD back then. He is a UNC graduate. You don't think he could have been biased in any way? And that's just one example.Yes, things may have changed for various reasons. Most importantly, different people are in all relevant positions today, and different people can reasonably handle things differently. However, IMO these are legitimate questions that should be addressed given the past history within the state. If there is a reason to handle it differently this time, fine, let's hear it.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

You think I'm yelling from rooftops? I have simply pointed out an obvious double standard and raised questions about it. Then I explained it when you asked. You think I'm being childish about it? That's disappointing, since I respect your opinions.By the way, I reject your notion that these investigations have become more commonplace and thus aren't pursued with the same level of effort nowadays. We're talking about investigations of state universities within the state of North Carolina. I'm not aware of any state university in North Carolina being investigated for serious allegations involving their athletic departments since 1989. Someone please correct me if I'm forgetting such instances.You reject the notion that favoritism can be shown as if it is an absurd notion. It happens every day at all levels of government, including state government. C.D. Spangler was the president of the UNC system back then, overseeing 16 campuses that included UNC and N.C. State. He publicly called for Valvano to be removed as AD back then. He is a UNC graduate. You don't think he could have been biased in any way? And that's just one example.Yes, things may have changed for various reasons. Most importantly, different people are in all relevant positions today, and different people can reasonably handle things differently. However, IMO these are legitimate questions that should be addressed given the past history within the state. If there is a reason to handle it differently this time, fine, let's hear it.

ETA; Eh, I don't care enough to get in a back and forth with you. You think what you think, I think what I think. Guess we'll see what happens. But either way, I expect it to be bad.