Until we do something about guns, don’t expect things to change overni (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

 

[tommyboy]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

for real world examples of how this policy plays out, check out crime stats in England, Venezuela, Chicago since guns were restricted.

the point is you don't make it harder for legal good guys to get guns if you want to punish bad guys who get guns no matter what. Just on the face of it, its an absurd idea.

 

[RCon]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

for real world examples of how this policy plays out, check out crime stats in England, Venezuela, Chicago since guns were restricted.

the point is you don't make it harder for legal good guys to get guns if you want to punish bad guys who get guns no matter what. Just on the face of it, its an absurd idea.

First off I don't want to restrict guns. I agree that's a failed idea. Second, you'll have to explain to me how background checks make it harder for good guys to get guns. Because I don't understand your reasoning.

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent. But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

 

[Rayderr]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

 

[RCon]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

If you make it illegal to sell a gun without a background check, there are going to be some sellers who break that law. If your only enforcement mechanism is "if I see you do it, I can prosecute/arrest/enforce", those that break that law aren't going to do it in public (say, at a gun show). At that point, the only way to catch someone selling without performing a background check is with via "undercover stings", where an agent tries to buy a gun from the seller. That's not a very effective or efficient method.

You need universal gun registration if you want to enforce universal background checks. There's just no way around that requirement.

There are a lot of people, including me, who are uncomfortable with the government having that information. I get that you're not one of them, but it's not an irrational thought process by any stretch. You are, after all, the poster child for "I trust the government implicitly, no matter what they've done in the past."

 

[[icon]]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Cops at gun shows are usually there to buy guns.

I once had a booth at one (got a ####load of 9mm ammo on the cheap during the panic and flipped it to make a profit)... had a County Deputy buddy come by and buy 500 rounds of ammo and another MPD officer come by and purchase a AR15 Lower Receiver from me (no paperwork required).

There is no shortage of law enforcement at gun shows.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

If you make it illegal to sell a gun without a background check, there are going to be some sellers who break that law. If your only enforcement mechanism is "if I see you do it, I can prosecute/arrest/enforce", those that break that law aren't going to do it in public (say, at a gun show). At that point, the only way to catch someone selling without performing a background check is with via "undercover stings", where an agent tries to buy a gun from the seller. That's not a very effective or efficient method.

You need universal gun registration if you want to enforce universal background checks. There's just no way around that requirement.

There are a lot of people, including me, who are uncomfortable with the government having that information. I get that you're not one of them, but it's not an irrational thought process by any stretch. You are, after all, the poster child for "I trust the government implicitly, no matter what they've done in the past."

The significant difference though is in this hypothetical case only sellers willing to break the law would knowingly do so. In purely economic terms, this would limit the number of potential sellers which would decrease the supply of guns available to people who wouldn't pass the background check. The sellers would also be more exposed, meaning that on top of the normal supply and demand increase there would likely be an additional risk premium applied. You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

 

[timschochet]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

 

[Rayderr]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

 

[timschochet]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Sorry, I know you mean it, but it's such a silly response. Drivers are going to speed no matter what the speed limit is. Robbers are going to rob no matter what the laws say. The purpose of laws like this one are to make things more difficult for the bad guy. Not impossible, but more difficult.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Sorry, I know you mean it, but it's such a silly response. Drivers are going to speed no matter what the speed limit is. Robbers are going to rob no matter what the laws say.The purpose of laws like this one are to make things more difficult for the bad guy. Not impossible, but more difficult.

It isn't a silly response. It's a fact Tim.

 

[Rayderr]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

You didn't. You posted a stat that said 30% of guns are connected to a gun show (Almost all of which is through straw sales.) That is far different than the criminal going to a gun show to buy a gun.

So again, please answer the question.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:

• 39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

• 39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

• 0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

• 1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

• 3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

• 8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Not all of them though. If you raise the cost of obtaining something, fewer people will get it. I'm pretty sure you could go to someplace like Japan and get a gun illegally if you wanted too, but it would be an enormous cost to do so. Just because you can't eliminate all criminals from getting guns, doesn't mean you have to make it easy. Putting in reasonable barriers will make a difference, even if it isn't dramatic.

 

[Chaka]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Because, guns, government, good guys, Good grief!

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Not all of them though. If you raise the cost of obtaining something, fewer people will get it. I'm pretty sure you could go to someplace like Japan and get a gun illegally if you wanted too, but it would be an enormous cost to do so. Just because you can't eliminate all criminals from getting guns, doesn't mean you have to make it easy. Putting in reasonable barriers will make a difference, even if it isn't dramatic.

Well it seems in Chicago guns are too expensive for some people so they resort to stealing them or getting them from straw purchasers.

In an interview with the Chicago Sun-Times, a South Side gang member admitted he and his crew almost exclusively arm themselves with stolen guns because they can’t afford to buy new ones. Some of those guns, he said, are stolen from freight trains sitting in South Side rail yards. Others are swiped from gun stores.
The gang member interviewed by the Sun-Times also said weapons from straw purchasers are common, too. It’s just another way to make money on the street.

Wealthy drug dealers in his South Side neighborhood buy those weapons from straw purchasers — usually for $100 or more above the retail price.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/14715658-418/chicago-gangs-dont-have-to-go-far-to-buy-guns.html#.U16Hj1eP4zw

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Not all of them though. If you raise the cost of obtaining something, fewer people will get it. I'm pretty sure you could go to someplace like Japan and get a gun illegally if you wanted too, but it would be an enormous cost to do so. Just because you can't eliminate all criminals from getting guns, doesn't mean you have to make it easy. Putting in reasonable barriers will make a difference, even if it isn't dramatic.

Well it seems in Chicago guns are too expensive for some people so they resort to stealing them.

In an interview with the Chicago Sun-Times, a South Side gang member admitted he and his crew almost exclusively arm themselves with stolen guns because they can’t afford to buy new ones. Some of those guns, he said, are stolen from freight trains sitting in South Side rail yards. Others are swiped from gun stores.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/14715658-418/chicago-gangs-dont-have-to-go-far-to-buy-guns.html#.U16Hj1eP4zw

It would probably be a great thing if the only way criminals could get guns was by stealing them. A percentage would get caught and prosecuted for that, as opposed to whatever violent crime they intended the guns to be used for in the first place.

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

You didn't. You posted a stat that said 30% of guns are connected to a gun show (Almost all of which is through straw sales.) That is far different than the criminal going to a gun show to buy a gun. So again, please answer the question.

Read it again please. It's 30% of all guns USED IN CRIMES.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Not all of them though. If you raise the cost of obtaining something, fewer people will get it. I'm pretty sure you could go to someplace like Japan and get a gun illegally if you wanted too, but it would be an enormous cost to do so. Just because you can't eliminate all criminals from getting guns, doesn't mean you have to make it easy. Putting in reasonable barriers will make a difference, even if it isn't dramatic.

Well it seems in Chicago guns are too expensive for some people so they resort to stealing them.

In an interview with the Chicago Sun-Times, a South Side gang member admitted he and his crew almost exclusively arm themselves with stolen guns because they can’t afford to buy new ones. Some of those guns, he said, are stolen from freight trains sitting in South Side rail yards. Others are swiped from gun stores.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/14715658-418/chicago-gangs-dont-have-to-go-far-to-buy-guns.html#.U16Hj1eP4zw

It would probably be a great thing if the only way criminals could get guns was by stealing them. A percentage would get caught and prosecuted for that, as opposed to whatever violent crime they intended the guns to be used for in the first place.

This appeared in the other article as well:

But if you look at all gun-related Cook County sentences, the numbers tell a different story.

A Sun-Times study of gun-related sentences in the Cook County Criminal Courts showed judges favoring probation over prison sentences in most of the cases.

The judges are not prosecuting.

The papers need to name these judges who do this and the people need to demand they stop beeing elected or appointed.

There are good laws on the books already.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Not all of them though. If you raise the cost of obtaining something, fewer people will get it. I'm pretty sure you could go to someplace like Japan and get a gun illegally if you wanted too, but it would be an enormous cost to do so. Just because you can't eliminate all criminals from getting guns, doesn't mean you have to make it easy. Putting in reasonable barriers will make a difference, even if it isn't dramatic.

Well it seems in Chicago guns are too expensive for some people so they resort to stealing them.

In an interview with the Chicago Sun-Times, a South Side gang member admitted he and his crew almost exclusively arm themselves with stolen guns because they can’t afford to buy new ones. Some of those guns, he said, are stolen from freight trains sitting in South Side rail yards. Others are swiped from gun stores.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/14715658-418/chicago-gangs-dont-have-to-go-far-to-buy-guns.html#.U16Hj1eP4zw

It would probably be a great thing if the only way criminals could get guns was by stealing them. A percentage would get caught and prosecuted for that, as opposed to whatever violent crime they intended the guns to be used for in the first place.

Sure it would but it still doesn't stop straw transactions and it doesn't seem to be lowering the gun violence in Chicago.

 

[RCon]

The significant difference though is in this hypothetical case only sellers willing to break the law would knowingly do so. In purely economic terms, this would limit the number of potential sellers which would decrease the supply of guns available to people who wouldn't pass the background check. The sellers would also be more exposed, meaning that on top of the normal supply and demand increase there would likely be an additional risk premium applied. You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

How well has that worked with drugs? Making the cost greater only serves to increase profits for those willing to run the risk.

 

[Rayderr]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

You didn't. You posted a stat that said 30% of guns are connected to a gun show (Almost all of which is through straw sales.) That is far different than the criminal going to a gun show to buy a gun. So again, please answer the question.

Read it again please. It's 30% of all guns USED IN CRIMES.

*sigh*

30% of trafficking: One ATF study found that over 10,000 crime guns traced in a year were connected to gun shows – about 30% of all crime guns traced that year.

Connected to gun shows is very different than criminal buying a gun at a gun show. If I go to a gun show and buy a gun and then give it or sell it to a criminal, the gun is connected to a gun show but the criminal did not get their gun at a gun show. They got it from me.

So pretty please, for the 4th time, how many criminals do you think got their gun from a gun show?

 

[RCon]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Sorry, I know you mean it, but it's such a silly response. Drivers are going to speed no matter what the speed limit is. Robbers are going to rob no matter what the laws say.The purpose of laws like this one are to make things more difficult for the bad guy. Not impossible, but more difficult.

Do you believe that the War on Drugs has been a success? I don't see how a background check law without an effective enforcement mechanism would be much different.

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

First off, when a felon purchases a gun, that is an illegal purchase; it's just one that you're making it impossible to enforce. Second, you're hose figures seem to contradict the ATF figures I quoted earlier in which 30% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows. But have it your way. Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage. If so universal background checks won't make a dent a crime, and those like me who are confident that it will will be proven wrong. We won't know for sure until we try it.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

The significant difference though is in this hypothetical case only sellers willing to break the law would knowingly do so. In purely economic terms, this would limit the number of potential sellers which would decrease the supply of guns available to people who wouldn't pass the background check. The sellers would also be more exposed, meaning that on top of the normal supply and demand increase there would likely be an additional risk premium applied. You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

How well has that worked with drugs? Making the cost greater only serves to increase profits for those willing to run the risk.

I guess it depends on how you want to measure it. Do you think more or less people will smoke marijuana if it becomes universally legal?

 

[RCon]

A background check law without an enforcement mechanism would be about the same as speed limits with a stipulation that cops could only bust you if they were in the car with you looking at the speedometer.

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

You didn't. You posted a stat that said 30% of guns are connected to a gun show (Almost all of which is through straw sales.) That is far different than the criminal going to a gun show to buy a gun. So again, please answer the question.

Read it again please. It's 30% of all guns USED IN CRIMES.

*sigh*

30% of trafficking: One ATF study found that over 10,000 crime guns traced in a year were connected to gun shows – about 30% of all crime guns traced that year.

Connected to gun shows is very different than criminal buying a gun at a gun show. If I go to a gun show and buy a gun and then give it or sell it to a criminal, the gun is connected to a gun show but the criminal did not get their gun at a gun show. They got it from me.

So pretty please, for the 4th time, how many criminals do you think got their gun from a gun show?

I answered your question. You don't seem to like my answer and you come up with an absurd definition of what "connected to gun shows" means, instead of the obvious definition- THAT THEY WERE PURCHASED THERE BY CRIMINALS. But whatever. Believe what you want to believe.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

First off, when a felon purchases a gun, that is an illegal purchase; it's just one that you're making it impossible to enforce. Second, you're hose figures seem to contradict the ATF figures I quoted earlier in which 30% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows.But have it your way. Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage. If so universal background checks won't make a dent a crime, and those like me who are confident that it will will be proven wrong. We won't know for sure until we try it.

You don't seem smart enough to understand the difference between the percentage of criminals BUYING guns at a gun show vs the percentage of guns used in crimes that CAME from gun shows.

 

[RCon]

The significant difference though is in this hypothetical case only sellers willing to break the law would knowingly do so. In purely economic terms, this would limit the number of potential sellers which would decrease the supply of guns available to people who wouldn't pass the background check. The sellers would also be more exposed, meaning that on top of the normal supply and demand increase there would likely be an additional risk premium applied. You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

How well has that worked with drugs? Making the cost greater only serves to increase profits for those willing to run the risk.

I guess it depends on how you want to measure it. Do you think more or less people will smoke marijuana if it becomes universally legal?

More for a while, but I doubt it's significantly more in the long run. By any other measurement, such as government funds spent, total cost to society, violence caused, etc., I think it's safe to say that drug prohibition has failed miserably.

 

[timschochet]

Arsenal of Doom makes my point better than I could. He is dead on. Universal background checks, even without registration, should have a significant impact on illegal gun sales. I see no reason not to try.

Really? Here is one of his quotes

You wouldn't stop the flow of guns into hands of people who can't legally have them, but the cost would be greater.

Criminals are going to get guns no matter what controls you try to put in place.

Sorry, I know you mean it, but it's such a silly response. Drivers are going to speed no matter what the speed limit is. Robbers are going to rob no matter what the laws say.The purpose of laws like this one are to make things more difficult for the bad guy. Not impossible, but more difficult.

Do you believe that the War on Drugs has been a success? I don't see how a background check law without an effective enforcement mechanism would be much different.

The war on drugs is a failure because it's universal. If the government attempted to ban guns and created a "war on guns", that would be a failure too. But what IS successful, for the most part, is restricting the sale of liquor to adults over 21. How do we enforce that?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

First off, when a felon purchases a gun, that is an illegal purchase; it's just one that you're making it impossible to enforce. Second, you're hose figures seem to contradict the ATF figures I quoted earlier in which 30% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows.But have it your way. Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage. If so universal background checks won't make a dent a crime, and those like me who are confident that it will will be proven wrong. We won't know for sure until we try it.

Ok Tim so you concede that less than 1% of all crimes were committed by criminals who purchased the gun used at a gun show.

Over 78% come from friends, family, or illegally.

You want to tackle the gun show issue first of course.

 

[timschochet]

A background check law without an enforcement mechanism would be about the same as speed limits with a stipulation that cops could only bust you if they were in the car with you looking at the speedometer.

How do we enforce not selling liquor to minors? If a teenager walks into a liquor store and offers cash for a bottle of whiskey, what's to stop the store owner from selling it to him?

The answer, of course, is that sometimes it does happen, and we can't stop it. But most times it doesn't, because the seller doesn't want to take a chance that somehow he will be caught and lose his liquor license. So again, I think you are very wrong about this. Most gun-sellers will obey the law once it's in place, and it will become much more difficult for felons to buy guns. Which is the whole point.

 

[Rayderr]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

First off, when a felon purchases a gun, that is an illegal purchase; it's just one that you're making it impossible to enforce. Second, you're hose figures seem to contradict the ATF figures I quoted earlier in which 30% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows.But have it your way. Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage. If so universal background checks won't make a dent a crime, and those like me who are confident that it will will be proven wrong. We won't know for sure until we try it.

See, some of us would rather skip the ineffective steps and go to something that would actually work.

Me, I would personally like to see something more along the lines of registering the gun and then having to report it when the gun is sold or stolen (and I've mentioned in the past, I think having private gun sales take place at a police station where a police officer can run a quick check to make sure the person buying isn't a criminal or has outstanding warrants is a great idea) and also having a person basically "renew" the registration of the gun each year, in which they state that yes they do still have the gun. This is the only way I can see effectively eliminating straw purchasers.

 

[StrikeS2k]

A background check law without an enforcement mechanism would be about the same as speed limits with a stipulation that cops could only bust you if they were in the car with you looking at the speedometer.

How do we enforce not selling liquor to minors? If a teenager walks into a liquor store and offers cash for a bottle of whiskey, what's to stop the store owner from selling it to him?

The answer, of course, is that sometimes it does happen, and we can't stop it. But most times it doesn't, because the seller doesn't want to take a chance that somehow he will be caught and lose his liquor license. So again, I think you are very wrong about this. Most gun-sellers will obey the law once it's in place, and it will become much more difficult for felons to buy guns. Which is the whole point.

yeah, cause kids never ask some dude in the parking log of a 7-11 if they'll buy beer for them.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Tim..you wrote

"You don't seem to like my answer and you come up with an absurd definition of what "connected to gun shows" means, instead of the obvious definition- THAT THEY WERE PURCHASED THERE BY CRIMINALS."

So are you still maintaining that you think the 30% of guns used in crimes that came from gun shows were purchased AT those gun shows by criminals despite data from the Justice Dept. that shows that figure to be less than 1%

 

[RCon]

The war on drugs is a failure because it's universal. If the government attempted to ban guns and created a "war on guns", that would be a failure too. But what IS successful, for the most part, is restricting the sale of liquor to adults over 21. How do we enforce that?

You serious, Clark? Do you remember high school at all? Hell, do you remember college?

I turned 21 my senior year of college. I was drunk 9 nights out of 10 for my entire freshman, sophomore, and junior years.

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

First off, when a felon purchases a gun, that is an illegal purchase; it's just one that you're making it impossible to enforce. Second, you're hose figures seem to contradict the ATF figures I quoted earlier in which 30% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows.But have it your way. Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage. If so universal background checks won't make a dent a crime, and those like me who are confident that it will will be proven wrong. We won't know for sure until we try it.

Ok Tim so you concede that less than 1% of all crimes were committed by criminals who purchased the gun used at a gun show.

Over 78% come from friends, family, or illegally.

You want to tackle the gun show issue first of course.

I don't concede that at all. The ATF numbers seem much more legitimate to me, and I believe that they are referring to guns purchased by felons at gun shows.

I'm simply suggesting that we won't know for sure who's right about this until we impose universal background checks. Once we do, if gun crime statistics don't go down in a few years, then I would be for removing the background checks as an unnecessary and onerous restriction against lawful gun owners. But I don't believe that's what's gonna happen.

 

[timschochet]

The war on drugs is a failure because it's universal. If the government attempted to ban guns and created a "war on guns", that would be a failure too. But what IS successful, for the most part, is restricting the sale of liquor to adults over 21. How do we enforce that?

You serious, Clark? Do you remember high school at all? Hell, do you remember college?

I turned 21 my senior year of college. I was drunk 9 nights out of 10 for my entire freshman, sophomore, and junior years.

Of course it happens. Straw purchases, and some straight purchases. But it is still, statistically, very effective. Or are you in favor of removing all age limit drinking restrictions?

 

[RCon]

The war on drugs is a failure because it's universal. If the government attempted to ban guns and created a "war on guns", that would be a failure too. But what IS successful, for the most part, is restricting the sale of liquor to adults over 21. How do we enforce that?

You serious, Clark? Do you remember high school at all? Hell, do you remember college?

I turned 21 my senior year of college. I was drunk 9 nights out of 10 for my entire freshman, sophomore, and junior years.

At the risk of quoting my own post, since I know how much you dislike anecdotal evidence...

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/special-populations-co-occurring-disorders/underage-drinking

From that link, which is literally the very first Google link for "underage drinking":

Underage drinking is widespread

• In 2009, about 10.4 million young people between ages 12 and 20 drank more than “just a few sips” of alcohol.
• As kids get older, they drink more. By age 15, half of teens have had at least one drink. By age 18, more than 70% of teens have had at least one drink.

Young people drink a lot

• Young people drink less often than adults, but when they do drink, they drink more than adults.
• On average, young people have about 5 drinks on a single occasion, which can be considered binge drinking.

 

[Rayderr]

30% of trafficking: One ATF study found that over 10,000 crime guns traced in a year were connected to gun shows – about 30% of all crime guns traced that year.

Connected to gun shows is very different than criminal buying a gun at a gun show. If I go to a gun show and buy a gun and then give it or sell it to a criminal, the gun is connected to a gun show but the criminal did not get their gun at a gun show. They got it from me.

So pretty please, for the 4th time, how many criminals do you think got their gun from a gun show?

I answered your question. You don't seem to like my answer and you come up with an absurd definition of what "connected to gun shows" means, instead of the obvious definition- THAT THEY WERE PURCHASED THERE BY CRIMINALS. But whatever. Believe what you want to believe.

Then why didn't they say the criminals purchased them at gun shows instead of saying the gun used was connected to a gun show. And seeing as you just said

Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage.

I'm not sure why you're now doubling down on a statistic that does not answer what I asked. Even the ATF says straw purchasing is the most common channel in gun trafficking.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

First off, when a felon purchases a gun, that is an illegal purchase; it's just one that you're making it impossible to enforce. Second, you're hose figures seem to contradict the ATF figures I quoted earlier in which 30% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows.But have it your way. Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage. If so universal background checks won't make a dent a crime, and those like me who are confident that it will will be proven wrong. We won't know for sure until we try it.

Ok Tim so you concede that less than 1% of all crimes were committed by criminals who purchased the gun used at a gun show.

Over 78% come from friends, family, or illegally.

You want to tackle the gun show issue first of course.

I don't concede that at all. The ATF numbers seem much more legitimate to me, and I believe that they are referring to guns purchased by felons at gun shows.

Your belief is wrong. The ATF stated that of guns used in crimes 30% came from gun shows. It doesn't suggest anything that those sales at those guns shows were made by felons. You are letting your bias cloud your judgement in a big way here!

 

[timschochet]

Rich you don't need universal enforcement of a law for it to be effective. The point is to make it more difficult for bad guys to get guns. We can never make it impossible.

The bad guys will be very quick to figure out who will sell them guns without complying. Now what? How do you crack down on the seller who doesn't perform the background check?

Random monitoring at gun shows and the lIke. Sort of like cops waiting for people to speed. You can't stop everyone but the threat of being caught is always a deterrent.But if that absolutely does not work, then registration.

Serious question, of the criminals that use guns in crimes, what percentage do you think go to a gun show to buy the gun?

Please answer the question Tim.

I already did. On Saturday I posted ATF statistics on this exact question. You're welcome to go back and look.

A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz30CUVril3

First off, when a felon purchases a gun, that is an illegal purchase; it's just one that you're making it impossible to enforce. Second, you're hose figures seem to contradict the ATF figures I quoted earlier in which 30% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows.But have it your way. Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage. If so universal background checks won't make a dent a crime, and those like me who are confident that it will will be proven wrong. We won't know for sure until we try it.

See, some of us would rather skip the ineffective steps and go to something that would actually work.

Me, I would personally like to see something more along the lines of registering the gun and then having to report it when the gun is sold or stolen (and I've mentioned in the past, I think having private gun sales take place at a police station where a police officer can run a quick check to make sure the person buying isn't a criminal or has outstanding warrants is a great idea) and also having a person basically "renew" the registration of the gun each year, in which they state that yes they do still have the gun. This is the only way I can see effectively eliminating straw purchasers.

It's absolutely true that registering all guns would be even more effective. But gun owners, and other libertarian-minded people like Rich are so uncomfortable with this solution that I'm not sure it's practical. From a political POV, I don't know what percentage of Americans are in favor of universal registration. It may be a minority. Whereas 70%-80% of the public is in favor of universal background checks, which means that at least that is politically viable. We need to accomplish the possible.

 

[RCon]

The war on drugs is a failure because it's universal. If the government attempted to ban guns and created a "war on guns", that would be a failure too. But what IS successful, for the most part, is restricting the sale of liquor to adults over 21. How do we enforce that?

You serious, Clark? Do you remember high school at all? Hell, do you remember college?

I turned 21 my senior year of college. I was drunk 9 nights out of 10 for my entire freshman, sophomore, and junior years.

Of course it happens. Straw purchases, and some straight purchases. But it is still, statistically, very effective. Or are you in favor of removing all age limit drinking restrictions?

No, it's not remotely effective. In fact, I thank you for making this analogy, as it proves my point. Seriously, Google "underage drinking". From the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm

Drinking Levels among YouthThe 2011 Youth Risk Behavior Survey6 found that among high school students, during the past 30 days

• 39% drank some amount of alcohol.
• 22% binge drank.
• 8% drove after drinking alcohol.
• 24% rode with a driver who had been drinking alcohol.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

30% of trafficking: One ATF study found that over 10,000 crime guns traced in a year were connected to gun shows – about 30% of all crime guns traced that year.

Connected to gun shows is very different than criminal buying a gun at a gun show. If I go to a gun show and buy a gun and then give it or sell it to a criminal, the gun is connected to a gun show but the criminal did not get their gun at a gun show. They got it from me.So pretty please, for the 4th time, how many criminals do you think got their gun from a gun show?

I answered your question. You don't seem to like my answer and you come up with an absurd definition of what "connected to gun shows" means, instead of the obvious definition- THAT THEY WERE PURCHASED THERE BY CRIMINALS. But whatever. Believe what you want to believe.

Then why didn't they say the criminals purchased them at gun shows instead of saying the gun used was connected to a gun show. And seeing as you just said

Maybe you and Rayderr are right and it's actually only a tiny percentage.

I'm not sure why you're now doubling down on a statistic that does not answer what I asked. Even the ATF says straw purchasing is the most common channel in gun trafficking.

Just Tim being Tim again. It's rather amusing and pathetic at the same time.

 

[RCon]

And those studies are just related to kids under 18, much less 18-20 year olds. Our laws banning alcohol sales to minors (as well as cigarettes sales to those under 18, for that matter) may be effective at preventing minors from purchasing alcohol at liquor stores, but they've been a colossal failure at preventing those minors from obtaining alcohol at all.

Like I wrote above, it's actually a pretty good analogy to your proposal of background checks without registration. It will do a great job of preventing criminals from buying guns at legitimate dealers, but will fail miserably at your real goal, which is preventing criminals from obtaining guns.

 

[timschochet]

Look, guys, statistics are everything with me. You guys are right that the statistic I posted is unclear, while the Justice Department statistic that Oogie Pringle quoted is very clear. However, the two still seem to contradict each other; what's more, the latter statistic seems to contradict other statistics that I have read from law enforcement sources which are in favor of background checks. I'm going to research the matter further, and if I find more statistics which either strengthen my argument or weaken it, I will post them here.

In the meantime, I continue to assert that we won't know for sure the truth of the matter until we impose universal background checks. And other than the possibility that they won't be effective, I still have yet to hear a compelling reason not to do so.