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US Men's National Team (6 Viewers)

I see you've found a new shiny annoyance to obsess about.
It is semi schtick but it is also how some people I think enjoy their sports.  They have to over focus on one item and then beat it into the ground with no shades of color in between the black and white to feel connected. 

He got bored with the Sargent fixation so now GGG gets all the focus.

If/When GGG is fired he will find some other trigger to focus on.

Probably harmless whether others agree with him or not.

 
Agree to disagree.  GGG has has inflicted more harm on this team than any other individual thus far in qualifying.   

That may not be a popular opinion, it's certainly not what you are going to hear from Federation fanboys or media that is politically tied to the Federation, but I think it's rather obvious.
as somebody else noted- he's called in the right guys typically. he's been a part of winning over some solid multi-nationals. he doesn't appear to be letting players slip through the cracks. he's won more than any other coach before him to start his career, including getting the team to gut out 2 cup wins, including taking out Mex twice.

we can get pissed about how things have gone these two games, and quibble over the deficiencies in his tactics... and all of that has nothing to do with fanboys or the media... but this hyperbolic over-reaction feels pretty similar to your take on Sargent vs Weah. I feel like once you absorbed more info about each guy, your thoughts tempered down to something less... less.

unless you're privvy to specific info on how he was getting players to line up tactically where they followed his instructions literally to the detriment of the team, I'm not sure how you can be so consistently dogmatic here. Players have to make adjustments and find things that work when it's not going their way- these guys are top pros.. they don't need the coach to tell them how to do everything. 

 
It is semi schtick but it is also how some people I think enjoy their sports.  They have to over focus on one item and then beat it into the ground with no shades of color in between the black and white to feel connected. 

He got bored with the Sargent fixation so now GGG gets all the focus.

If/When GGG is fired he will find some other trigger to focus on.

Probably harmless whether others agree with him or not.


I like to find topics that worth discussion.  I mean, I can discuss how great Adams is but it's rather captain obvious.

I find the blame game stuff super interesting because it's obvious the Federations is trying to spin something here.  I was pleased when Weston's dad stuck up for him...I though Weston was getting a raw deal and was being used as some sort of smokescreen for what was really going on....GGG was getting his ### handed to him.

 
Blaming the lack of success on proven 22 year old world class players and giving GGG some sort of free pass is wildly misguided IMHO.   

These results, with these players are just not acceptable.  
We asked earlier but you may have missed it.  Can you share your definition of a world class player because I think it is much different than mine.  I am not saying mine is correct as it is kind of a nebulous term.

I have not seen a single person give GGG a pass.  I will call you out on that even if I am doing my best to be polite and engage here.  I think most people see there are multiple problems to solve, both with the coaching and the players.   

 
... but this hyperbolic over-reaction feels pretty similar to your take on Sargent vs Weah. I feel like once you absorbed more info about each guy, your thoughts tempered down to something less... less.


I mean, I was right on Sargent and Weah, before most people knew who they were.  And I haven't really mentioned it because I don't want to be that guy in this thread claiming he was the most right and others are wrong...but you brought it up.  :shrug:

 
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We asked earlier but you may have missed it.  Can you share your definition of a world class player because I think it is much different than mine.  I am not saying mine is correct as it is kind of a nebulous term.


I think if you are getting champions league minutes, you are a world class player.

 
Blaming the lack of success on proven 22 year old world class players and giving GGG some sort of free pass is wildly misguided IMHO.   

These results, with these players are just not acceptable.  
who here is giving GGG a free pass? who is laying all the blame on CP and pals? 

dead-horse... GGG needs to find a better way of setting up the players to create more/better chances. the players have to do a lot better doing their part. so far, it's been sub-par for all parties. but the concern with GGGG is that we haven't see a ton of flexibility with his system. but if the players fire on all cylinders, the chances will go in and not consistently hit the first defender.

 
unless you're privvy to specific info on how he was getting players to line up tactically where they followed his instructions literally to the detriment of the team, I'm not sure how you can be so consistently dogmatic here. Players have to make adjustments and find things that work when it's not going their way- these guys are top pros.. they don't need the coach to tell them how to do everything. 


I kind of disagree, the team just doesn't look like it has had a plan on offense...it just reeks of poor tactics and coaching awareness to me.  

 
I mean, I was right on Sargent and Weah, before most people knew who they were.  And I haven't really mentioned it because I don't want to be that guy in this thread claiming he was the most right and others are wrong...but you brought it up.  :shrug:
Weah hasn't shown a whole lot, tbh- you wanted him starting.

Sarge has been a frustration- but nobody here was making the case that he was god's-gift... just that he provided a lot of abilities that the US needed and to that (and sadly, this) point, there wasn't anybody else. at the time, you seemed to be on this hill of your own creation that the world thought he was this amazing auto-start.

 
Thank you for sharing, that certainly helps.   Not to be snide or anything but you may want to take a look at just how many players in the world get Champion League minutes.


I'm not talking about qualifiers...I probably should have been more clear about that.

 
Weah hasn't shown a whole lot, tbh- you wanted him starting.

Sarge has been a frustration- but nobody here was making the case that he was god's-gift... just that he provided a lot of abilities that the US needed and to that (and sadly, this) point, there wasn't anybody else. at the time, you seemed to be on this hill of your own creation that the world thought he was this amazing auto-start.


I just thought Weah was an up and comer and deserved more roster consideration, that Idea was laughed at in this thread...now he is on the roster.   I don't recall calling for Weah to start...maybe in the summer to see where he is at.

Regarding Sarge, I spotted his mediocrity and lack of pace right away...have never been a fan, well documented.  Most in this thread had him penciled in as a solid 10.  I think I was on the right side of that dicussion.

Again, I'm not bringing this up so I can be right...you brought it up so I'm defending that discussion.

 
I kind of disagree, the team just doesn't look like it has had a plan on offense...it just reeks of poor tactics and coaching awareness to me.  
again- it could be that the players are also ####### up. 

and I'm with everybody else that hasn't liked the look/shape of how the team ends up playing. But tactically, I can't know if that's the specific tactics- which have and could work, the players not getting it (which could be on both parties), or specific instructions that are making the players lose their shape. 

these pros should all be able to cover all three aspects of that, even if GGG isn't lining them up optimally... which he clearly isn't.

 
who here is giving GGG a free pass? who is laying all the blame on CP and pals? 

dead-horse... GGG needs to find a better way of setting up the players to create more/better chances. the players have to do a lot better doing their part. so far, it's been sub-par for all parties. but the concern with GGGG is that we haven't see a ton of flexibility with his system. but if the players fire on all cylinders, the chances will go in and not consistently hit the first defender.


:hifive:

 
as somebody else noted- he's called in the right guys typically. he's been a part of winning over some solid multi-nationals. he doesn't appear to be letting players slip through the cracks. he's won more than any other coach before him to start his career, including getting the team to gut out 2 cup wins, including taking out Mex twice.

we can get pissed about how things have gone these two games, and quibble over the deficiencies in his tactics... and all of that has nothing to do with fanboys or the media... but this hyperbolic over-reaction feels pretty similar to your take on Sargent vs Weah. I feel like once you absorbed more info about each guy, your thoughts tempered down to something less... less.

unless you're privvy to specific info on how he was getting players to line up tactically where they followed his instructions literally to the detriment of the team, I'm not sure how you can be so consistently dogmatic here. Players have to make adjustments and find things that work when it's not going their way- these guys are top pros.. they don't need the coach to tell them how to do everything. 
FWIW, I'm not sure that's exactly true.  It's been pretty evident that Mexico (ie Tata) figured out how to tactically neutralize an offense that is predicated on the 6 breaking lines in the Nations Cup Final (result notwithstanding) and that GGG hasn't made the necessary adjustments since then.  He does want the guys to have certain movement patterns both on and off the ball.  I don't think it's a coincidence that we've generally looked much better in a double pivot in the limited time we've used it since then.  That's a tactical decision GGG is making and yeah Acosta is getting bench if he tries to play as a second pivot if GGG is telling him to play as an 8.  

 
I just thought Weah was an up and comer and deserved more roster consideration, that Idea was laughed at in this thread...now he is on the roster.   I don't recall calling for Weah to start...maybe in the summer to see where he is at.

Regarding Sarge, I spotted his mediocrity and lack of pace right away...have never been a fan, well documented.  Most in this thread had him penciled in as a solid 10.  I think I was on the right side of that dicussion.

Again, I'm not bringing this up so I can be right...you brought it up so I'm defending that discussion.


I dont remember the bolded.....at all.

 
I'm not talking about qualifiers...I probably should have been more clear about that.
There are 32 teams in the group stage.  Probably on average 18-19 players will be used from each squad of 25 through out the group stage.  Do you think there are close to 600 World Class players alive?

That seems high to me.

 
There are 32 teams in the group stage.  Probably on average 18-19 players will be used from each squad of 25 through out the group stage.  Do you think there are close to 600 World Class players alive?

That seems high to me.


Probably a little high, I was thinking more like 300ish...I'm sure there is a way to logically widdle it down.

 
I dont remember the bolded.....at all.
he has this habit of when some one offers a slightly different opinion that is not stark black or white, that he just assumes the worse.

Look what he just said about every one giving GGG a pass when literally no one has.  He just enjoys more black and white type of discussions I think.

 
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he has this habit of when some one offers a slightly different onion that is not stark black or white, that he just assumes the worse.

Look what he just said about every one giving GGG a pass when literally no one has.  He just enjoys more black and white type of discussions I think.


It felt like the discussion was trending towards blaming players.   I think that was misguided so I raised my voice.

No big deal, I'm not angry.  I'm obviously outnumbered here.

 
I just thought Weah was an up and comer and deserved more roster consideration, that Idea was laughed at in this thread...now he is on the roster.   I don't recall calling for Weah to start...maybe in the summer to see where he is at.

Regarding Sarge, I spotted his mediocrity and lack of pace right away...have never been a fan, well documented.  Most in this thread had him penciled in as a solid 10.  I think I was on the right side of that dicussion.

Again, I'm not bringing this up so I can be right...you brought it up so I'm defending that discussion.
I brought all of that up because you were making these comments based on what seemed like knee-jerk gut reactions... not from having well-informed consideration. Sarge brings a lot to a team- or else he wouldn't be playing where he's been playing. At youth level he was a scoring machine for the US, and appeared to have an incredibly high soccer IQ and workrate. Started pretty strong for the men, and even then- we all hoped for the best for him once we saw some of his limitations when he started to play against pros. 

and Weah- everybody here saw his upside from his youth days- some great goals in one of those youth WCs. but we also saw his limitations/inconsistencies... hoped for the best and continued growth with him. Still do. this is another hill of your own creation.

you seemed to have more level headed reactions to both of these guys once you saw more of them. and that's my point here- where was this vitriol against GGG before this week? it feels reactionary and similarly not thought out. 

 
you seemed to have more level headed reactions to both of these guys once you saw more of them. and that's my point here- where was this vitriol against GGG before this week? it feels reactionary and similarly not thought out. 


I have never liked the Berhalter hire, well documented in this thread...so I was ready to pounce I suppose.  He did not fit the profile for the caliber of coach that I think our elite players should expect and deserve.  Unfortunately those fears have come to fruition.  Again, I'm not trying to turn this into a "I was right" discussion, but you asked why I'm being critical of Berhalter.

 
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Don't want to rehash...but it's all here in this thread.


Obviously not a productive exercise digging through a thousand page threas but I'm pretty sure nobody was "laughing at" the idea of weah making the roster. 

Hes the son of a Ballon d'or winner and was always considered a very viable prospect.  He was a mainstay on youth national teams and was on the fringe of a top 10 team team when he was like 19.

Did people maybe disagree about putting him directly into the starting lineup when he was barely playing for PSG? Sure. Were they laughing at the idea of getting him in the mix? I seriously doubt that.

 
Obviously not a productive exercise digging through a thousand page threas but I'm pretty sure nobody was "laughing at" the idea of weah making the roster. 

Hes the son of a Ballon d'or winner and was always considered a very viable prospect.  He was a mainstay on youth national teams and was on the fringe of a top 10 team team when he was like 19.

Did people maybe disagree about putting him directly into the starting lineup when he was barely playing for PSG? Sure. Were they laughing at the idea of getting him in the mix? I seriously doubt that.


I recall the discussion was something like this a a few years ago.  I mentioned I like what I had seen from Weah, others in this thread were saying he's not getting enough minutes with his club, rumors of poor dedication and can't stay healthy etc. etc.   I was pretty adamant that the talent was there and he should be seriously considered for future call ups etc.

Something like that.

 
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I have never liked the Berhalter hire, well documented in this thread...so I was ready to pounce I suppose.  He did not fit the profile for the caliber of coach that I think our elite players should expect and deserve.  Unfortunately those fears have come to fruition.  Again, I'm not trying to turn this into a "I was right" discussion, but you asked why I'm being critical of Berhalter.


To expand on this I want somebody who is proven on the international stage.  GGG was not even remotely qualified  (using this criteria)

 
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It felt like the discussion was trending towards blaming players.   I think that was misguided so I raised my voice.

No big deal, I'm not angry.  I'm obviously outnumbered here.
you have to believe that CP and the rest of the guys have to do better, though- right? CP is our "talisman"- he needs to lead by example and take this team to better results. And the rest of the players have to step the f up. it's been pretty poor, especially through the MF and attacking third (I'm talking poor touches and final balls, not tactics).

I recall the discussion was something like this a a few years ago.  I mentioned I like what I had seen from Weah, others in this thread were saying he's not getting enough minutes with his club, rumors of poor dedication and can't stay healthy etc. etc.   I was pretty adamant that the talent was there and he should be seriously considered for future call ups etc.

Something like that.


every single person in this thread has liked Weah from the giddyup. the me against the world thing with your views simply hasn't happened (other than saying repeatedly that Sarge "sucks"... you can have that).

but if you watched him play as a pro and for the US, he was and has been wildly inconsistent throughout his game. for me, that was a deal-breaker until he started getting regular minutes to polish up his game and become more consistent. that was all pretty obvious if you watched him play in France or for the US. latching onto an occasional moment of brilliance and discounting the rest seems... ill-founded.

 
but if you watched him play as a pro and for the US, he was and has been wildly inconsistent throughout his game. for me, that was a deal-breaker until he started getting regular minutes to polish up his game and become more consistent. that was all pretty obvious 


100% agree, his performances at club and country are not equal to his talent.  

 
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you have to believe that CP and the rest of the guys have to do better, though- right? CP is our "talisman"- he needs to lead by example and take this team to better results. And the rest of the players have to step the f up. it's been pretty poor, especially through the MF and attacking third (I'm talking poor touches and final balls, not tactics).


I put the blame at 75% coach, 25% players, maybe 70/30.

 
Not really going to sucked into this nonsense, but I still think Weah has something to prove.  We're talking about a guy with 1600 top-tier pro minutes and one USMNT goal.  Could he be great?  Sure.  Could putting him in as a false #9 help connect the wingers and the front two lines better?  I'd probably try it!  But there's no way anyone can claim Weah is an auto-start right now.

 
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100% agree, his performances at club and country are not equal to his talent.


talent doesn't exclude consistency. there are a gajillion soccer players who flash moments of genius and have some inherent physical gifts/abilities. until they show consistency, saying any of them should be playing above somebody else who does... no gracias. all it takes is one mistake at this level to change a game for the worse- let alone repeated mistakes. 

 
talent doesn't exclude consistency. there are a gajillion soccer players who flash moments of genius and have some inherent physical gifts/abilities. until they show consistency, saying any of them should be playing above somebody else who does... no gracias. all it takes is one mistake at this level to change a game for the worse- let alone repeated mistakes. 


Agree.  

 
This has been a fun couple pages.
I will take the blame for this.  I get too easily sucked in.  I should know better.  This is the same guy who has doubled down on no MLS player should ever, even once in any point in the future, pull on a USMNT jersey.  

It is really hard to have any enjoyable discussions when takes are that black and white.

 
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Paul Carr

@PaulCarr

Over the previous three Hexes, Honduras has the same number of home losses (2) as the #USMNT does.

Home records for the four countries to play in all three previous Hexes:

US: 37 pts (12W-1D-2L)

CR: 36 pts (11W-3D-1L)

Mex: 34 pts (10W-4D-1L)

Hond: 31 pts (9W-4D-2L)

 
If my choices are a draw tonight or a loss, I would probably take the loss if it ensures GGG is fired and we can find a suitable internationally experienced coach.

 
Paul Carr

@PaulCarr

Over the previous three Hexes, Honduras has the same number of home losses (2) as the #USMNT does.

Home records for the four countries to play in all three previous Hexes:

US: 37 pts (12W-1D-2L)

CR: 36 pts (11W-3D-1L)

Mex: 34 pts (10W-4D-1L)

Hond: 31 pts (9W-4D-2L)
I found some stat about xG over the last 5 games for US and Hon. Hon had somewhere around 1 for and higher against ~1.3. US was inverse.

 
I found some stat about xG over the last 5 games for US and Hon. Hon had somewhere around 1 for and higher against ~1.3. US was inverse.
Are some of those games Gold Cup games? If so, I think that skews things since Honduras is always playing "away" in that tournament.

 
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Everyone in here seems to agree that GGG should be fired if they lose tonight. Me too.

That being said, shouldn't he just be gone regardless? I mean, once you get that close to being gone, does anyone really think he can salvage anything?

Say they win ugly tonight. Great, US rights the ship. But then what? What about next cycle? How many points does he need to get there to keep his job?

When does it end?

 
I don't get the Paramount+ hate. Its $5.99/month and you get the Concacaf world cup qualifiers, Champions League, Europa League and a ton of other soccer leagues/games. Kate Abdo and the fantastic studio teams. Its like a gift from the soccer gods.  Its not like I'm Mr. Moneybags McGee over here, and this is unbeatable entertainment value for me.

I paid $9.50 for a cup of crappy beer at the Drive By Truckers show last weekend - that is something to get upset about.

 
I don't get the Paramount+ hate. Its $5.99/month and you get the Concacaf world cup qualifiers, Champions League, Europa League and a ton of other soccer leagues/games. Kate Abdo and the fantastic studio teams. Its like a gift from the soccer gods.  Its not like I'm Mr. Moneybags McGee over here, and this is unbeatable entertainment value for me.

I paid $9.50 for a cup of crappy beer at the Drive By Truckers show last weekend - that is something to get upset about.
Same with Peacock.

And props for the show.  I saw them at Farm Aid long time ago and had no idea what I was watching.  Would love to catch a current-day concert now that I know them.

 

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