Routilla
Footballguy
I agree, but how much more value for SD? If it is minor then I think they toast VJ and let the date pass. I can't imagine that 3 games is going to make much of a difference. Just a bad situation for all parties involved.
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V-Jax's Bolts career 'almost certainly' over? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
I don't have any problem with that at all. My original point was that Jackson is clearly a better receiver than Floyd. How much better is hard to say, but I'd have to guess it's reasonably substantial. I guess we'll know a little more this year. We'll see how the passing game does (and Floyd does) without Jackson and with Floyd taking some of the heat that Jackson took.As for AJ's decision, that fine. I never said it was stupid for him NOT to sign Jackson to a long-term deal. As Maurile mentioned in the other thread, we don't know what all has been going on behind the scenes. My only contention is that Jackson is getting hosed and I don't blame him one bit for the position he is taking. He was offered almost exactly the same deal Floyd was and was told to take it or leave it. FLOYD actually held out for a while because of that offer. So everyone just expects Jackson who had 10x the career so far to just suck it up and play for a 6th year (tacked on to his late 2nd round rookie contract which he played out in full) grossly underpaid?I wouldn't. Not when I'm pretty sure I can get a lot more guaranteed money sometime soon.Just Win Baby said:The point is that the Chargers think what Floyd gives them for $3M is a better value to the team than what Jackson would give them for top 10 WR money. Which enables A.J. to use that money elsewhere and/or avoid committing to an expensive long term deal before a new CBA is in place, which could reset the market in some ways.Hey, I wish Jackson was staying and playing. But A.J. has a good track record, so I am willing to accept his judgment here that the team doens't need Jackson enough to pay his price.Holy Schneikes said:
az_prof
Footballguy
The link I provided wasn't Floyd: it was Meachem. He was a first round pick by NO.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
Ahh, got it. I assumed by your description that it was Floyd (I'll have to look back to see why Meachem was thrown in there in the first place). Don't know that I'd call 6'2, 210 Meachem similar in size to 6'5", 230 Vincent Jackson. Meachum isn't small, but he's no where near Jackson's size (Floyd is though). However, I agree, Meachem looked very good last year. Took him a while, but he could be the new #1 on that team pretty shortly.
massraider
Footballguy
He doesn't need any service time. he was only a RFA because the CBA expired.BTW, that's why it wasn't a typical holdout situation from Day One.
netnalp
Footballguy
Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune has "heard speculation...from an NFL person" that the Rams will call the Chargers about the availability of unsigned restricted free agent Vincent Jackson.
With Donnie Avery on I.R. and Keenan Burton (knee) shut down, now is the time if the Rams are going to make a move. Acee does make it clear that this is not a report and only "speculation," but confirms that "more than Seattle has called" about Jackson. In a wide-open NFC West, the Rams could take a big jump with an improved passing attack. It doesn't hurt that V-Jax would also help Steven Jackson as one of the NFL's top run-blocking wideouts.
Source: San Diego Union-Tribune
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Home_NFL.aspx?rwr=1
With Donnie Avery on I.R. and Keenan Burton (knee) shut down, now is the time if the Rams are going to make a move. Acee does make it clear that this is not a report and only "speculation," but confirms that "more than Seattle has called" about Jackson. In a wide-open NFC West, the Rams could take a big jump with an improved passing attack. It doesn't hurt that V-Jax would also help Steven Jackson as one of the NFL's top run-blocking wideouts.
Source: San Diego Union-Tribune
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Home_NFL.aspx?rwr=1
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Really a great fit. Makes too much sense.netnalp said:
Willie Mays Hayes
Footballguy
I am very shocked that we're three days away from September 4th deadline and we have basically heard nothing on the Vincent Jackson trade front. Given that it has been 13 years since a player voluntarily held out a whole NFL season, I can't believe that there is no progress towards a new landing spot. It seems a trade is what works best for both the Chargers and Jackson...so why isn't their any productive chatter about him getting shopped?
I'm perplexed...
I'm perplexed...
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Why would SD be in a hurry to trade him for a 2nd rounder? If there's a work stoppage in 2011 I think SD should be in a big hurry to trade him sometime between right now and late April 2012. You'll probably hear a great deal of angst coming from VJ's representation(they are paying his allowance until they get him a deal) but I have no idea why SD would be in a hurry to do anything. If this does actually drag on for a year or more I'd be surprised if VJ doesn't get new(better) representation.I realize the FF world is in a panic to get this resolved, but somehow I just don't think AJ is.
Willie Mays Hayes
Footballguy
Uh, is he shopping him? Last anyone heard it was Seattle and possibly Minnesota that's been able to talk to VJax's agents. Bizarre situation...kinda stupid...a waste of a player and a bastid GM.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
If he were shopping him would the Chargers be more successful in 2010? I hope AJ is spending time scouring the waiver wire to find an OLman, anybody that might be able to create a pass rush and another FA CB in case they can't put pressure on the opponents QB. I hope AJ is spending ZERO time shopping him. None. Zilch.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Why dont the Panthers make a move for him?
Wouldn't it maybe make sense to shop him for an O-lineman, pass rusher, or CB then?
Yenrub
Footballguy
Aren't the Panthers a bit on the cheap side?
BoltBacker
Footballguy
It seems to me in the NFL players are rarely ever dealt for players. And even when they are quality O-lineman, pass rushers and CB's are rarely ever dealt for WR's. Which might make one pause and ask how many WR's are really WORTH $50mil in the first place when they aren't even the #1 option in the passing game on their own team.I'm willing to listen though, how many quality O-lineman/pass rusher/CB types are just sitting on the bench around the NFL on teams willing to give VJ ~ $50mil or so?
pantherclub
Footballguy
Depends on the player I guess. They paid Peppers last year, this year no. They paid Gross and Smith. They didnt pay Chris Harris. To me this is the year the Panthers can make a run, all they need is another wr. Most people speculate that Dwill, Fox, Matt Moore and probably Hurney are done after this year.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I'm not a Matt Moore hater, but I haven't seen enough to make me think Moore is a guy to make a run with. If he were I doubt people would speculate he'll be done after this year.
pantherclub
Footballguy
The panthers would not want to pay him big time qb money with Claussen on the roster. With the running game the panthers have Moore is the perfect qb for that system. He doesnt make dumb mistakes ie Delhomme, he can make all the throws and he manages a good game. I can see the panthers making a deep run even without Vjax
and what about after 2010?if they can get a higher pick than they would get in 2012 for letting him walk (end of 3rd at best), they should be trying to get it
How long has it been since a player could (probably) go from RFA to UFA by sitting out? (I don't know the answer, but I think it's been much longer than 13 years.)
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Insein
Footballguy
Some possible movement?
The Vikings and Vincent Jackson
9:38
AM ET
Vincent Jackson | Chargers
The Minnesota Vikings made the list of speculative trade possibilities for San Diego Chargers WR Vincent Jackson. However, it is just speculation at this point, as the apparent deadline for a V-Jax trade approaches. (If he's not traded and signed by his new team by Saturday afternoon, a roster exempt status kicks in, making him ineligible for the first six games).
But seeing as though we're in hypothetical stages, it's with keen interest that we read the framework for a trade proposed by Michael Silver of Yahoo! Sports. Silver proposes the Vikes offer a conditional 2011 draft pick that would start as a third-rounder, but be bumped up to a second-rounder based on how the team does this season. In addition, the Vikings would reach out to Jackson's agents and offer a one-year deal for $6 million (less years and dollars than V-Jax is seeking), with the promise that he won't be franchise-tagged for 2011. That would leave the door open for negotiations on a longer deal, but at least something would be sealed.
ESPN NFC North blogger Kevin Seifert gave his take Thursday morning:
- Tim Kavanagh
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors#6000
The Vikings and Vincent Jackson
9:38
AM ET
Vincent Jackson | Chargers
The Minnesota Vikings made the list of speculative trade possibilities for San Diego Chargers WR Vincent Jackson. However, it is just speculation at this point, as the apparent deadline for a V-Jax trade approaches. (If he's not traded and signed by his new team by Saturday afternoon, a roster exempt status kicks in, making him ineligible for the first six games).
But seeing as though we're in hypothetical stages, it's with keen interest that we read the framework for a trade proposed by Michael Silver of Yahoo! Sports. Silver proposes the Vikes offer a conditional 2011 draft pick that would start as a third-rounder, but be bumped up to a second-rounder based on how the team does this season. In addition, the Vikings would reach out to Jackson's agents and offer a one-year deal for $6 million (less years and dollars than V-Jax is seeking), with the promise that he won't be franchise-tagged for 2011. That would leave the door open for negotiations on a longer deal, but at least something would be sealed.
ESPN NFC North blogger Kevin Seifert gave his take Thursday morning:
- Tim Kavanagh
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors#6000
Obviously I have absolutely zero idea. But this is the article I was talking about: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...incent-jackson/
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
This is the piece people forget. VJ is getting screwed on a technicality that was likely unforeseen by his agent (that he wnt from UFa to RFA based on lack of salary cap). So unlike other players in the past, he actually has an incentive to sit out (not get injured) and as long as he comes back in good shape will still get paid next year as a UFA.I don't see him playing a down this year.Maurile Tremblay said:
JbizzleMan
Footballguy
He has a chance to lose a lot of leverage in his contract negotiations...he's basically already conceded that he's not worth $50 million over 5 years.(I don't buy the agent-speak that they never asked for that) If the Chargers offense doesn't miss a beat without him, then how is he going to justify a monster contract after only one really good season and missing an entire year?
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
He's had two good seasons and teams won't have to pay him and give up a pair of draft picks.
He's not allowed to report during his suspension.The roster-exemption starts to run when he reports.
The question is whether the roster-exemption would apply with his new team after he is traded. The league says yes, the players' union says no. The CBA doesn't directly address the point, but I think the players' union's argument is persuasive. (When he reports to the Chargers, he'd be on the roster-exempt list of his club — i.e., the Chargers. It makes little sense to force the Vikings to put him on their roster-exempt list. If they didn't want him to count against their roster until three weeks later, they could just wait and trade for him three weeks later.)
So if Jackson doesn't sign by Sept 4, he can't be traded until after the third game (since he can't be traded until after he signs, and he can't sign during his suspension). But if he is traded immediately after the third game, he could be eligible to play in the fourth game, depending on whether an arbitrator sides with the league or with the players' union.
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Tau837
Footballguy
So you know for a fact that his presence would have made the difference? I don't think so.
Gamblin'man
Footballguy
Think most of us could see his presence would have made a huge difference. Just one more boneheaded move by A.J. that will cost the Chargers. Put him in line behind Shottenheimer, Brees, and Turner on A.J. Smith mistakes.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
Rivers threw for just under 300 yards...what more are you wanting? Damnit, he should have thrown for 400.
Agreed. The WRs looked average. Lots of drops. He clearly didn't have a go-to WR. It was Gates and a bunch of average WRs. The Chiefs had rookies all over the place. I'm pretty sure Rivers missed his #1 WR from last year.
Aint that the understatement of the year.
Rivers to Flyod = IncompleteRivers to Floyd = Incomplete
Reapeat the process over and over again.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
I wasn't going to be the one to bump this thread this quickly, but since it's already done...
Again, it's very early, but I think some folks might now have an idea about why Jackson was starting over Floyd all that time.
Floyd was targeted 12 times last night (about the same as Miles Austin and Ochocinco), and got 3 catches (and that's with the defense double-teaming Gates). Welcome to #1 WR status Mr. Floyd.
Would Jackson have made a difference? Really hard to say. But that's a question AJ is undoubtedly going to have to answer after handling the situation the way he did. It was inevitable given an opening week loss.
Edit:
Of course, I do realize that Jackson wouldn't have been there for this game anyway (which is all on Jackson).
Again, it's very early, but I think some folks might now have an idea about why Jackson was starting over Floyd all that time.
Floyd was targeted 12 times last night (about the same as Miles Austin and Ochocinco), and got 3 catches (and that's with the defense double-teaming Gates). Welcome to #1 WR status Mr. Floyd.
Would Jackson have made a difference? Really hard to say. But that's a question AJ is undoubtedly going to have to answer after handling the situation the way he did. It was inevitable given an opening week loss.
Edit:
Of course, I do realize that Jackson wouldn't have been there for this game anyway (which is all on Jackson).
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Ted Lange as your Bartender
Footballguy
This is the biggest point of all. Wake me up when Floyd is still hauling in 25% of targets after week 4.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Floyd seems to lumber and not run real good routes. He also does the jump catch when he dont need to jump.
All that being said he was targeted i the redzone and will produce some but VJAX>>>>>>Floyd.
The play might be Naanee
All that being said he was targeted i the redzone and will produce some but VJAX>>>>>>Floyd.
The play might be Naanee
Quite a few of those throws weren't so good either. It's not like they were all on target. But no argument from me on VJax over Floyd.
shader
Footballguy
As I said a million times, this is Floyd's 7th season. Not too many WR's break out in season SEVEN. Floyd is what he is. Average at best. People saying that Rivers "made" Jackson and that Floyd is just as good were homers of some kind.
Naanee is the guy to target on that team. If he can improve, the Chargers might be ok.
But at this point, this is a team that is throwing away a super bowl because they won't pay their left tackle and top WR.
Naanee is the guy to target on that team. If he can improve, the Chargers might be ok.
But at this point, this is a team that is throwing away a super bowl because they won't pay their left tackle and top WR.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Nah that D isnt good enough to get to the SB this year. But not playing your good players is kinda dumb too.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
Floyd is good at what he does. But my point all along has been that the presumption that he is as good as or nearly as good as Vincent Jackson is just that - a presumption.Guys almost never get to the point he is at in his career and all of the sudden become studs (either NFL studs or fantasy studs). It happens occasionally, but not often.I don't think think Jackson really gets his due consideration as a truly elite NFL wide receiver. A lot of folks seem to think he is all system, but I think he'll be an outstanding receiver regardless of system and I'm not sure why people seem to feel that way. He's huge, silly fast for his size, has great hands, has great concentration, is smart (on the field), and has very few health issues. What else could anyone possibly want in a #1 WR?
Agreed. Last night was the best thing that could have happened to Jackson. They are clearly not the same team without him. They need a #1 WR on the field.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Rivers was one play shy of 300 yds and 3 TDs for the night, that guy is seriously a man amongst boys. What I saw in him last night was a vintage Dan Marino performance that fell a little short. He was yelling at everyone and good for him, that kid was playing his butt off last night. He was yelling at his center, other OLinemen, his WRs, his RBs, the coaches, the fans, the waterboy, guy was really trying to will them to victory, a true competitor.
The WRs let him down all night. I never bought the Malcolm Floyd hype, he has never been a WR1, he's really better suited as a 2 or even a 3...Neenee is average. Gates looked in rhythm early with Rivers but KC started double and triple teaming him, making sure Rivers had to look other places. I have not been an AJ supporter since he ran Schottenheimer out after going 14-2 but let's not open up pandora's box this morning.
San Diego has a creampuff schedule, they will still win 10-11 games in their sleep.
The WRs let him down all night. I never bought the Malcolm Floyd hype, he has never been a WR1, he's really better suited as a 2 or even a 3...Neenee is average. Gates looked in rhythm early with Rivers but KC started double and triple teaming him, making sure Rivers had to look other places. I have not been an AJ supporter since he ran Schottenheimer out after going 14-2 but let's not open up pandora's box this morning.
San Diego has a creampuff schedule, they will still win 10-11 games in their sleep.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Now u can double cover Gates and render him ineffective.The run blocking didnt look good either,though Mathews found some room.
Papa Georgio
Footballguy
Certainly think the WR's were 
, but Rivers didn't adjust very well to the conditions. He tried to make some trows that required the WR to have to stop quickly or extend. The field wouldn't allow for that and he should have put the ball on them more. He also lost his poise. He got all over Buster Davis when he fell on the slippery turf. I wanted someone to come lay into him when he missed Floyd on that little jump pass.
I imagine San Diego will come out and play lights out against Jax next week.
, but Rivers didn't adjust very well to the conditions. He tried to make some trows that required the WR to have to stop quickly or extend. The field wouldn't allow for that and he should have put the ball on them more. He also lost his poise. He got all over Buster Davis when he fell on the slippery turf. I wanted someone to come lay into him when he missed Floyd on that little jump pass.I imagine San Diego will come out and play lights out against Jax next week.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I imagine the MJD goes absolutely nuts next week. Jammer seemed to do well vs Bowe though so you might wanna sit MSWCertainly think the WR's were
CalBear
Footballguy
Look at the last two throws on the penultimate drive. Third down, throw to Malcolm Floyd, who's open with his defender behind him. Jackson would have used his body to screen off the defender; Floyd didn't, and the ball got knocked away. Then on fourth down, the ball went through Nannee's hands. Then on the final two plays into the end zone, KC triple-teamed Gates and sent a three-man rush, and as far as I could see, no one else managed to get open despite Rivers having a ton of time to throw. That doesn't happen if Jackson's in the game.
Rivers played well enough to win, but it was obvious that he's hampered by his WR corps.
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High Speed Reject
Footballguy
I'm ready to cut ties, Thursday it is... I think he would have had a great year in SD in season.
