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Vince Young's Unorthodox Passing Mechanics (1 Viewer)

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
as recently as 2004, phillip rivers was selected #4 overall, & he has a quasi-sidearm, 3/4 delivery?ther may be OTHER compelling reasons he will fail, underwhelm or be a bigger project than his backers suspect... but it is unclear why this needs to be an intrinsic problem... so maybe he will have a handful more passes batted down during the season... but if he brings an extra dimension to the (99% of the rest of the) game in OTHER areas... maybe he can compensate...his 65% completion percentage seems to not be cited much by detractors...i have even heard it said that he threw to wide open WRs at texas... maybe there was a reason for that! defenders have to account for him on roll outs & scrambles... some of these same defenders may otherwise been in coverage.also, i saw a lot of passes where he threw downfield & in the general direction of coverage.if he lands in TEN he will have an outstanding tutor in norm chow... how hard can it be to flip it to the TE all the time. :)imo, one of the hardest things for a young QB to learn is how to throw the ball with touch... VY seems to a natural... you can see it in the way he runs, his poise in the pocket, his field awareness... he plays UNDER CONTROL.

 

gzilla

Footballguy
A BLACK Running Qb with questionable mechanics is going to get alot more scrutiny than a white pocket passer.
Don't be stupid. The questions about Young's passing ability are legitimate questions...it has nothing to do with his race.As for the question at hand, if he shows good arm strength, footwork, etc. and the only thing "odd" about him is his delivery, I don't think many teams will care.

However, if his arm is average or below, they will point to the deliver as being part of the problem.

As I understand it, he's going to participate at the combine. At worst, he will have his own workout. The questions will be answered one way or another. Teams would LOVE to see him outperform their expectations throwing the ball.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
I think you know my thoughts on Young, but there are some concerns.The biggest one IMO is his accuracy. I know his passing % was high, but that was simply because if a WR wasn't wide open, he'd run. Similar to Vick in that regard. He was a man among boys in most games (including the Rose Bowl), and will still be among the most physical players in the NFL, but we can't discount that he'll lose some of his edge here.While I don't think he's the next Vick, if he was that wouldn't be horrible. Vick isn't a FF stud, but he does win games.I agree 100% with the Tennessee concept, between Troupe, Kinney and Scaife, he'll be fine (think Alge Crumpler + 2 other good TEs). Chow is a good mentor and Fisher one of the better HC's. However, if he lands in New Orleans or Houston :thumbdown:

 
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Hawk

Footballguy
I think you know my thoughts on Young, but there are some concerns.

The biggest one IMO is his accuracy. I know his passing % was high, but that was simply because if a WR wasn't wide open, he'd run. Similar to Vick in that regard. He was a man among boys in most games (including the Rose Bowl), and will still be among the most physical players in the NFL, but we can't discount that he'll lose some of his edge here.

While I don't think he's the next Vick, if he was that wouldn't be horrible. Vick isn't a FF stud, but he does win games.

I agree 100% with the Tennessee concept, between Troupe, Kinney and Scaife, he'll be fine (think Alge Crumpler + 2 other good TEs). Chow is a good mentor and Fisher one of the better HC's. However, if he lands in New Orleans or Houston :thumbdown:
While that is true to some extent that he'd run if WR's weren't open, for much of the regular season that wasn't really the case. He looked to pass much more than he ran for the most part this season due largely to the coaches wanting to avoid injury risks. The only times they really unleashed his running were when they were behind against Ok.State and in the Rose Bowl. He did pass for over 3,000 yards this year with 26 TD passes. On the other hand, he just barely hit 1,000 yards rushing, and that was only because he had 200 yards in the Rose Bowl and almost 200 against Ok.State. Believe me, he could have rushed for 150 a game easily if he had wanted to.

I think Vince is barely scratching the surface of how good a passer he can become. When you look at his redshirt freshman season compared to this season, the difference in his passing ability is HUGE. If he continues to progress like that, he'll be fine. And I don't see any reason why he won't. He needs a year, maybe two to adjust and learn, but his upside potential is off the charts.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
While that is true to some extent that he'd run if WR's weren't open, for much of the regular season that wasn't really the case. He looked to pass much more than he ran for the most part this season due largely to the coaches wanting to avoid injury risks.

The only times they really unleashed his running were when they were behind against Ok.State and in the Rose Bowl. He did pass for over 3,000 yards this year with 26 TD passes. On the other hand, he just barely hit 1,000 yards rushing, and that was only because he had 200 yards in the Rose Bowl and almost 200 against Ok.State. Believe me, he could have rushed for 150 a game easily if he had wanted to.

I think Vince is barely scratching the surface of how good a passer he can become. When you look at his redshirt freshman season compared to this season, the difference in his passing ability is HUGE. If he continues to progress like that, he'll be fine. And I don't see any reason why he won't. He needs a year, maybe two to adjust and learn, but his upside potential is off the charts.
From what I saw, he didn't often throw into tight coverage. He did look to pass more than run, and a lot of credit goes to Mack Brown for that. He has been instrumental in VY's development.Some of what I'm saying has to do with the fact that I highly doubt he'll have a lead in most games like he did in college, so I look at the games where he had to "win the game" vs. "development games". Might be a bad way to evaluate, but I look at what a player does under pressure as most important.

I agree that he probably could have ran for 2,000 yards in the season if his coach let him.

And yes, his upside is HUGE along with his leadership, which is why I've been a fan of his for awhile now. (Take a look through the previous threads, IIRC this is the first "harsh" criticism I've given of him)

 

jerseyh8r

Footballguy
I think the passing questions were apparent in the Rose Bowl. Much like the entire season, his rating and completion percentage were high, but how often did he hit a player in stride (or in traffic) compared to how often a player had to dive or come to a knee to catch the ball? His accuracy in that game especially reminded me of McNabb's.....good numbers, but just lacking the fine accuracy to be an elite passer in the mold of a Peyton Manning/Tom Brady. Leinhart, on the other hand, was the better passer in that game....but certainly not the better player. You have to remember that coaches are creatures of habit, and no one has ever worked with a player of VY's talent level and unique abilities. As nice a player he would be to have on a team, he poses a big challenge to think outside of the box and change the way someone has always coached to take advantage of those abilities. Everyone on this board says not to change VY and use him the way he was meant to be used (and I agree), but how many coaches are out there who are willing to upheave their entire system and everything they have ever known to accomodate his unique skill-set? Whoever does go out on such a limb is going to to put VY through every test imaginable before putting their neck and reputation on the line.Just my :2cents:

 

Warpig

Footballguy
A BLACK Running Qb with questionable mechanics is going to get alot more scrutiny than a white pocket passer.
Yeah...because it really had a negative affect on Vick. :rolleyes: He is a BLACK running qb that had a rocket/accurate arm in college. And was highly drafted (and overrated). But in the NFL he isn't a threat to pass because he has happy feet and would rather run instead of making a play in the pocket. The Falcons will never get any better until he learns to make plays with his arm and not just his feet. I suspect Young is the same. Has lots of potential...good arm, good accuracy, fast, play-maker...but is he patient enough to wait for the play to develop and make some plays throwing downfield to keep the defense honest. Until players like Vick and Young prove capable of making big plays hanging tight in the pocket and throwing the ball downfield to the WR with a step on the DB, defenses will just continue to stack the box and dare them to pass.
 

Hawk

Footballguy
I think the passing questions were apparent in the Rose Bowl. Much like the entire season, his rating and completion percentage were high, but how often did he hit a player in stride (or in traffic) compared to how often a player had to dive or come to a knee to catch the ball? His accuracy in that game especially reminded me of McNabb's.....good numbers, but just lacking the fine accuracy to be an elite passer in the mold of a Peyton Manning/Tom Brady. Leinhart, on the other hand, was the better passer in that game....but certainly not the better player.

You have to remember that coaches are creatures of habit, and no one has ever worked with a player of VY's talent level and unique abilities. As nice a player he would be to have on a team, he poses a big challenge to think outside of the box and change the way someone has always coached to take advantage of those abilities. Everyone on this board says not to change VY and use him the way he was meant to be used (and I agree), but how many coaches are out there who are willing to upheave their entire system and everything they have ever known to accomodate his unique skill-set? Whoever does go out on such a limb is going to to put VY through every test imaginable before putting their neck and reputation on the line.

Just my :2cents:
You make some good points. I would doubt that Vince is ever going to be an elite passer. But he doesn't have to be because of the other things he brings to the table. I think he'll be a good passer in the NFL at some point though. And I agree that unless you are willing to put Vince's unique talents to good use, why bother taking him. There is definitely some risk there. On the other hand, the rewards could be even greater. It will take the right coach to get the full beenfit of Vince's talents. But you can't coach moxy and the ability to thrive under pressure. That's why you have to take a chance on a guy like Vince that has that ability in a big, big way.

 

cstu

Footballguy
if he lands in TEN he will have an outstanding tutor in norm chow... how hard can it be to flip it to the TE all the time. :)
Yes, if the Titans draft him it will definitely change my view of him since Chow knows a lot more about QB's than I do. However, if the Titans pass on him I think it's a good indication that he will have trouble in the NFL.
 

cstu

Footballguy
Jaws played with a guy (Cunningham) who played much the same as Young and here's what he had to say:

JANUARY 11I watched him, just like everyone else did, in the Rose Bowl. Vince Young was phenomenal in that game, he did some things that I've never seen a college quarterback do and he won the national championship for Texas.But in the NFL, Vince Young is going to meet a whole different animal: Defenses with high levels of sophistication, players who are just as fast as he is, and coordinators who have eaten up young quarterbacks many, many times over the years.I'm not saying Young won't ever be a great NFL quarterback. I just want to hold the hype for now, because when people talk about Young revolutionizing the game like Randall Cunningham, hey, Randall never reached a Super Bowl and, in fact, had his greatest success late in his career when he learned to play from the pocket.Before Young revolutionizes anything, he must learn to play the quarterback position. He must be a maestro of the position, not a running back playing quarterback.Check out this stat: Of the 12 starting quarterbacks in this year's playoffs, they averaged 4.32 yards rushing PER GAME. Did I make that clear enough?These run-around, mobile quarterbacks, yeah, they make plays, but that does not give you consistent play from the quarterback position.When I project this guy into the NFL game, I don't see it yet. He has all kinds of athletic ability, but he needs to learn to play quarterback.
 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
I love it... The guy is 3rd in the nation in passing efficiency and has TD/Int ratios that rival anyone's, and suddenly there are a ton of qualifiers added to his ability.I can name 10 NFL starters that don't "hit the guy in stride" or "throw in to tight coverage" yet they are good passers and win games. I can name 10 more that "hit people in stride" and "throw in to tight coverage" who also get picked off all the time and can't win to save their lives. From group 1, I give you Donovan McNAbb.From group 2, I give you Tim COuch.Who would you rather have?

 

Peep It Yo!

Footballguy
I didn't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this has already been stated. However, VY's mechanics are not the only things that are being questioned about him. The fact that he plays from the shotgun on most plays has some of the NFL people concerned. They are thinking that he won't be as threatening starting under the center and that his accuracy will be affected even more due to this change.Edited for a grammatical mistake (brainfart).

 
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I thought he made good decisions and accurate throws in the Rose Bowl. At the time I was impressed in spite of his ugly motion. Maybe I missed the poorly placed balls.

 

falconeyed

Footballguy
as recently as 2004, phillip rivers was selected #4 overall, & he has a quasi-sidearm, 3/4 delivery?

ther may be OTHER compelling reasons he will fail, underwhelm or be a bigger project than his backers suspect... but it is unclear why this needs to be an intrinsic problem... so maybe he will have a handful more passes batted down during the season...

but if he brings an extra dimension to the (99% of the rest of the) game in OTHER areas... maybe he can compensate...

his 65% completion percentage seems to not be cited much by detractors...

i have even heard it said that he threw to wide open WRs at texas... maybe there was a reason for that! defenders have to account for him on roll outs & scrambles... some of these same defenders may otherwise been in coverage.

also, i saw a lot of passes where he threw downfield & in the general direction of coverage.

if he lands in TEN he will have an outstanding tutor in norm chow... how hard can it be to flip it to the TE all the time. :)

imo, one of the hardest things for a young QB to learn is how to throw the ball with touch... VY seems to a natural... you can see it in the way he runs, his poise in the pocket, his field awareness... he plays UNDER CONTROL.
From what I've read, Chow is intent on talking Fisher into drafting Leinert. VY, in my opinion, is going to be either a Saint or a Jet.
 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
as recently as 2004, phillip rivers was selected #4 overall, & he has a quasi-sidearm, 3/4 delivery?

ther may be OTHER compelling reasons he will fail, underwhelm or be a bigger project than his backers suspect... but it is unclear why this needs to be an intrinsic problem... so maybe he will have a handful more passes batted down during the season...

but if he brings an extra dimension to the (99% of the rest of the) game in OTHER areas... maybe he can compensate...

his 65% completion percentage seems to not be cited much by detractors...

i have even heard it said that he threw to wide open WRs at texas... maybe there was a reason for that! defenders have to account for him on roll outs & scrambles... some of these same defenders may otherwise been in coverage.

also, i saw a lot of passes where he threw downfield & in the general direction of coverage.

if he lands in TEN he will have an outstanding tutor in norm chow... how hard can it be to flip it to the TE all the time. :)

imo, one of the hardest things for a young QB to learn is how to throw the ball with touch... VY seems to a natural... you can see it in the way he runs, his poise in the pocket, his field awareness... he plays UNDER CONTROL.
From what I've read, Chow is intent on talking Fisher into drafting Leinert. VY, in my opinion, is going to be either a Saint or a Jet.
what if leinert isn't an option... like if he goes #2 overall as expected to the saints?
 

falconeyed

Footballguy
as recently as 2004, phillip rivers was selected #4 overall, & he has a quasi-sidearm, 3/4 delivery?

ther may be OTHER compelling reasons he will fail, underwhelm or be a bigger project than his backers suspect... but it is unclear why this needs to be an intrinsic problem... so maybe he will have a handful more passes batted down during the season...

but if he brings an extra dimension to the (99% of the rest of the) game in OTHER areas... maybe he can compensate...

his 65% completion percentage seems to not be cited much by detractors...

i have even heard it said that he threw to wide open WRs at texas... maybe there was a reason for that! defenders have to account for him on roll outs & scrambles... some of these same defenders may otherwise been in coverage.

also, i saw a lot of passes where he threw downfield & in the general direction of coverage.

if he lands in TEN he will have an outstanding tutor in norm chow... how hard can it be to flip it to the TE all the time. :)

imo, one of the hardest things for a young QB to learn is how to throw the ball with touch... VY seems to a natural... you can see it in the way he runs, his poise in the pocket, his field awareness... he plays UNDER CONTROL.
From what I've read, Chow is intent on talking Fisher into drafting Leinert. VY, in my opinion, is going to be either a Saint or a Jet.
what if leinert isn't an option... like if he goes #2 overall as expected to the saints?
Last I read, VY was the higher ranked QB, based what seems to be primarily on his Rose Bowl win. If that's the case, then either VY gets drafted at 1.02 or the Saints crap away their pick, leaving Leinert at 1.03. Of course, rankings seem to flip almost daily, so I could be rolling with inaccurate information.
 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
don't get me wrong... i don't think anybody knows... but most mocks i have seen have the first three at bush, leinert & young...bush looks likely at #1...a QB likely at #2 with aaron brooks probably gone (there has been some speculation that new HC payton may try & resurrect his career... this is not the consensus view)... if brooks is indeed gone, leinert would be a logical choice... even leinert's biggest detractors & young's biggest supporters would almost certainly concede leinert is the more pro ready QB.TEN at #3 expected to look for a QB to groom to be mcnairs eventual (near term?) replacement... with volek possibly being dealt before or during draft... aside from the chow insider info you heard which i haven't, some have speculated young would be good fit in TEN as mcnair has been like a father figure & mentor to him... though the fact that they are buddies in real life may not be a compelling reason in & of itself for titans FO & coaching staff to draft him... it is true that it might ease his transition... but obviously they would only draft him if they like him a lot in the first place... & even if mcnair does unexpectedly retire (most information points to him renegotiating & coming back for at least one more year), that doubtless wouldn't be a cause for them to NOT draft him if they were otherwise inclined to... that scenario could definitely change their thinking about what to do with volek...if mcnair isn't around for a year or two, SOMEONE will probably need to be... by most accounts, VY probably will take that long to get acclimated to the pro game.

 
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Hawk

Footballguy
don't get me wrong... i don't think anybody knows... but most mocks i have seen have the first three at bush, leinert & young...

bush looks likely at #1...

a QB likely at #2 with aaron brooks probably gone (there has been some speculation that new HC payton may try & resurrect his career... this is not the consensus view)... if brooks is indeed gone, leinert would be a logical choice... even leinert's biggest detractors & young's biggest supporters would almost certainly concede leinert is the more pro ready QB.

TEN at #3 expected to look for a QB to groom to be mcnairs eventual (near term?) replacement... with volek possibly being dealt before or during draft... aside from the chow insider info you heard which i haven't, some have speculated young would be good fit in TEN as mcnair has been like a father figure & mentor to him... though the fact that they are buddies in real life may not be a compelling reason in & of itself for titans FO & coaching staff to draft him... it is true that it might ease his transition... but obviously they would only draft him if they like him a lot in the first place... & even if mcnair does unexpectedly retire (most information points to him renegotiating & coming back for at least one more year), that doubtless wouldn't be a cause for them to NOT draft him if they were otherwise inclined to... that scenario could definitely change their thinking about what to do with volek...

if mcnair isn't around for a year or two, SOMEONE will probably need to be... by most accounts, VY probably will take that long to get acclimated to the pro game.
On top of Vince's relationship with McNair, Fisher has made many public statements that were extremely complimentary of Vince. It sounds like he really thinks highly of him which adds to the speculation they would take him.
 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
as recently as 2004, phillip rivers was selected #4 overall, & he has a quasi-sidearm, 3/4 delivery?

ther may be OTHER compelling reasons he will fail, underwhelm or be a bigger project than his backers suspect... but it is unclear why this needs to be an intrinsic problem... so maybe he will have a handful more passes batted down during the season...

but if he brings an extra dimension to the (99% of the rest of the) game in OTHER areas... maybe he can compensate...

his 65% completion percentage seems to not be cited much by detractors...

i have even heard it said that he threw to wide open WRs at texas... maybe there was a reason for that! defenders have to account for him on roll outs & scrambles... some of these same defenders may otherwise been in coverage.

also, i saw a lot of passes where he threw downfield & in the general direction of coverage.

if he lands in TEN he will have an outstanding tutor in norm chow... how hard can it be to flip it to the TE all the time. :)

imo, one of the hardest things for a young QB to learn is how to throw the ball with touch... VY seems to a natural... you can see it in the way he runs, his poise in the pocket, his field awareness... he plays UNDER CONTROL.
From what I've read, Chow is intent on talking Fisher into drafting Leinert. VY, in my opinion, is going to be either a Saint or a Jet.
what if leinert isn't an option... like if he goes #2 overall as expected to the saints?
Last I read, VY was the higher ranked QB, based what seems to be primarily on his Rose Bowl win. If that's the case, then either VY gets drafted at 1.02 or the Saints crap away their pick, leaving Leinert at 1.03. Of course, rankings seem to flip almost daily, so I could be rolling with inaccurate information.
I have seen nothing since the ROse Bowl to indicate that YOung is rated higher than Leinart. Granted, none of the ratings matter til the combine/workouts, but everyone from Kiper to Pasquerelli is saying "LEinart to the saints" with the only possibility of VY going higher being rooted in the idea that the Texans might take him since he's a local hero.
 

Chaos Commish

Footballguy
I have seen nothing since the ROse Bowl to indicate that YOung is rated higher than Leinart. Granted, none of the ratings matter til the combine/workouts, but everyone from Kiper to Pasquerelli is saying "LEinart to the saints" with the only possibility of VY going higher being rooted in the idea that the Texans might take him since he's a local hero.
The Young/Leinart debate out of NO isn't getting near the publicity it deserves. We simply cannot know what the front office is thinking, or how anyone who matters rates these QBs. There has been a massive assumption in favor of Leinart in the national media and national punditry, but there's a significant lean towards Young in the New Orleans media. Likewise, football fans nationally are talking Leinart to the Saints as a done deal, but local New Orleans fans are having a very spirited debate between the two-- and if my gauge is accurate-- leaning Young.
 

Hamstring

Footballguy
Ever seen Big Ben throw? Good god his motion is bad. Young won't be good unless he learns to throw in the pocket. See McNabb/Cunningham.

 
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DrJ

Footballguy
A BLACK Running Qb with questionable mechanics is going to get alot more scrutiny than a white pocket passer.
And the big white running QB with questionable mechanics gets converted to WR. What's your point?
 

nygiants56

Footballguy
I think you know my thoughts on Young, but there are some concerns.

The biggest one IMO is his accuracy. I know his passing % was high, but that was simply because if a WR wasn't wide open, he'd run. Similar to Vick in that regard. He was a man among boys in most games (including the Rose Bowl), and will still be among the most physical players in the NFL, but we can't discount that he'll lose some of his edge here.

While I don't think he's the next Vick, if he was that wouldn't be horrible. Vick isn't a FF stud, but he does win games.

I agree 100% with the Tennessee concept, between Troupe, Kinney and Scaife, he'll be fine (think Alge Crumpler + 2 other good TEs). Chow is a good mentor and Fisher one of the better HC's. However, if he lands in New Orleans or Houston :thumbdown:
that tennesee concept is blown out of proportion..young is tutored by mcnair..fine..lets say this is mcnair's last year in the nfl..does he stay on as a coach to further tutor young, or does he move out of the state?

the tennesee connection we all need to be thinking about is this:

Fisher and Chow are USC guys. Leinhart, White, Bush are USC guys..its almost a LOCK they take one of these 3..

 
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cstu

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?

 

Hawk

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.

 
The biggest one IMO is his accuracy. I know his passing % was high, but that was simply because if a WR wasn't wide open, he'd run.
Now I'm not usually one to get angry here, but I am getting sick and tired of people making wildly inaccurate assertions about Vince like these as though they are fact. I have no idea if you are a Texas season ticket holder or a guy who's seen a couple of his games on TV here and there, but I have to believe it's the latter. Many people have made the point about his radical improvement over his 3 years on the field, so I think that's well covered, but if you go back and watch every game he played this year, you will see him stick the ball in some tight spots and do it very accurately. I'll stick to some plays from the ones I think you've seen.1) The game-winning TD throw at Ohio State.Sweed was totally covered, and Vince had to drop the ball over a CB very close to Sweed, sticking it right on the edge of the endzone. And he did. That's a big-time NFL throw to win the biggest game of his life to that point.2) The almost-TD to Sweed vs USCIf you go back and watch that video breakdown of every throw in the Rose Bowl, you'll see one of the last pass plays with about :45 secs left in the game. Before Vince ran to set up his final score, he threw a great touch pass to the back of the end zone to Sweed, who was well-covered once again. The pass was incomplete, but it had no chance to be picked off b/c Vince put it where only his guy could get it. The USC DB made a great play to knock it from Sweed's hand, but he again threw into tight coverage in the endzone late in in a huge game and made a great throw.Sometimes you could argue Vince tried to do too much and got a few of his picks trying to thread the needle. That could get him in trouble in the NFL. But to say that unless a guy was wide open he didn't throw is just wrong. :hot: :rant: :thumbdown: :wall: :shock: :rolleyes: :X
 

Chaos Commish

Footballguy
The biggest one IMO is his accuracy. I know his passing % was high, but that was simply because if a WR wasn't wide open, he'd run.
Now I'm not usually one to get angry here, but I am getting sick and tired of people making wildly inaccurate assertions about Vince like these as though they are fact. :hot: :rant: :thumbdown: :wall: :shock: :rolleyes: :X
I'm with you 100%, but it isn't worth it after a point. I have laid out solid examples for him and Bush, and the... er... "them"... they don't care. They have a ________ opinion. They are entitled to it. Until Young does it on Sundays, you're not changing minds. I wouldn't expect brownie points for "I told ya sos" later either. But you can absolutely expect scorn should you be wrong. :lol: I used to be disgusted

now I try to be amused

:banned:

 

cstu

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.
Vince Young was going to be drafted as a QB regardless of what happened in the Rose Bowl. Matt Jones' numbers weren't far behind Young's and he played on a much worse team in Arkansas. I don't know about his shoulder problems, but it seems to me that he was never given a chance to be an NFL QB.

 

rabidfireweasel

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.
Vince Young was going to be drafted as a QB regardless of what happened in the Rose Bowl. Matt Jones' numbers weren't far behind Young's and he played on a much worse team in Arkansas. I don't know about his shoulder problems, but it seems to me that he was never given a chance to be an NFL QB.
There was no question that Vince was going to be a QB, Rose Bowl or no Rose bowl, that is true. However, there were real questions if he would be a QB prior to this season, when his numbers were similar to Jones. However, this year, he had a year that answered questions about drafting him to play QB. And sorry, Jones never had a season like Vince did. Matt Jones never threw for more than 2100 yards or 18tds. Young put up 3000 and 26.

 

cstu

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.
Vince Young was going to be drafted as a QB regardless of what happened in the Rose Bowl. Matt Jones' numbers weren't far behind Young's and he played on a much worse team in Arkansas. I don't know about his shoulder problems, but it seems to me that he was never given a chance to be an NFL QB.
There was no question that Vince was going to be a QB, Rose Bowl or no Rose bowl, that is true. However, there were real questions if he would be a QB prior to this season, when his numbers were similar to Jones. However, this year, he had a year that answered questions about drafting him to play QB. And sorry, Jones never had a season like Vince did. Matt Jones never threw for more than 2100 yards or 18tds. Young put up 3000 and 26.
Young did it at Texas and Matt Jones at Arkansas. I don't think the talent is comparable.
 

Hawk

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.
Vince Young was going to be drafted as a QB regardless of what happened in the Rose Bowl. Matt Jones' numbers weren't far behind Young's and he played on a much worse team in Arkansas. I don't know about his shoulder problems, but it seems to me that he was never given a chance to be an NFL QB.
There was no question that Vince was going to be a QB, Rose Bowl or no Rose bowl, that is true. However, there were real questions if he would be a QB prior to this season, when his numbers were similar to Jones. However, this year, he had a year that answered questions about drafting him to play QB. And sorry, Jones never had a season like Vince did. Matt Jones never threw for more than 2100 yards or 18tds. Young put up 3000 and 26.
Young did it at Texas and Matt Jones at Arkansas. I don't think the talent is comparable.
Whatever. Players are different. Just because their big and mobile that doesn;t make them interchangeable. Besides, Jones made no effort to come into the NFL as a QB, so who knows how he would have fared. Vince is a better passer, and Jones wasn't even as good a runner as Vince. He was a little faster than Vince, but not nearly as elusive IMO.
 

rabidfireweasel

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.
Vince Young was going to be drafted as a QB regardless of what happened in the Rose Bowl. Matt Jones' numbers weren't far behind Young's and he played on a much worse team in Arkansas. I don't know about his shoulder problems, but it seems to me that he was never given a chance to be an NFL QB.
There was no question that Vince was going to be a QB, Rose Bowl or no Rose bowl, that is true. However, there were real questions if he would be a QB prior to this season, when his numbers were similar to Jones. However, this year, he had a year that answered questions about drafting him to play QB. And sorry, Jones never had a season like Vince did. Matt Jones never threw for more than 2100 yards or 18tds. Young put up 3000 and 26.
Young did it at Texas and Matt Jones at Arkansas. I don't think the talent is comparable.
You could keep asserting this, or you could look at reality. The 2004 Arkansas team underachieved. The 2003 team beat Texas, went 9-4 in the SEC and won a bowl game. They averaged 33 points per game. The 2002 went 9-5 in the SEC. You do not win 9 games in the SEC without talent. Certainly not in back to back years. There were considered a top 20 program, in the high teens. So please, just stop. This is sillier than the "Ciatrick Fason is probably the most complete package" jibber jabber you were talking about last year at this time before he ran his 40. Where Texas has significanty more talent is on D.Bily Pittman, Limas Sweed and Quan Cosby might someday become elite wr's. However they are not now, and no one is gushing about their unbelievable talent. David Thomas is a nice TE and will succeed in the right system at the next level, but no one is considering him in the Davis, Pope, Lewis talent bracket.

 

cstu

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.
Vince Young was going to be drafted as a QB regardless of what happened in the Rose Bowl. Matt Jones' numbers weren't far behind Young's and he played on a much worse team in Arkansas. I don't know about his shoulder problems, but it seems to me that he was never given a chance to be an NFL QB.
There was no question that Vince was going to be a QB, Rose Bowl or no Rose bowl, that is true. However, there were real questions if he would be a QB prior to this season, when his numbers were similar to Jones. However, this year, he had a year that answered questions about drafting him to play QB. And sorry, Jones never had a season like Vince did. Matt Jones never threw for more than 2100 yards or 18tds. Young put up 3000 and 26.
Young did it at Texas and Matt Jones at Arkansas. I don't think the talent is comparable.
You could keep asserting this, or you could look at reality. The 2004 Arkansas team underachieved. The 2003 team beat Texas, went 9-4 in the SEC and won a bowl game. They averaged 33 points per game. The 2002 went 9-5 in the SEC. You do not win 9 games in the SEC without talent. Certainly not in back to back years. There were considered a top 20 program, in the high teens. So please, just stop. This is sillier than the "Ciatrick Fason is probably the most complete package" jibber jabber you were talking about last year at this time before he ran his 40. Where Texas has significanty more talent is on D.Bily Pittman, Limas Sweed and Quan Cosby might someday become elite wr's. However they are not now, and no one is gushing about their unbelievable talent. David Thomas is a nice TE and will succeed in the right system at the next level, but no one is considering him in the Davis, Pope, Lewis talent bracket.
I hope you're right and Young turns out to be a great NFL player since it would be fun to watch. He has a legitimate shot at becoming a great QB, but realistically I see it taking him at least a couple years to adjust to playing in the NFL.I didn't consider Fason the "most complete", it was actually Ronnie Brown. What I actually said about Fason was "The whole package, but hasn't lived up to his potential. Could be the best RB in the draft if he works on his game.", which I still think. I also had him ranked as the 7th best RB in the draft and that was before ran the 40 in the 4.6's.

I put Young and Fason in similar categories - talented players who can succeed if they get a chance to improve on their weak areas.

 
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rabidfireweasel

Footballguy
I hope you're right and Young turns out to be a great NFL player since it would be fun to watch. He has a legitimate shot at becoming a great QB, but realistically I see it taking him at least a couple years to adjust to playing in the NFL.

I didn't consider Fason the "most complete", it was actually Ronnie Brown. What I actually said about Fason was "The whole package, but hasn't lived up to his potential. Could be the best RB in the draft if he works on his game.", which I still think. I also had him ranked as the 7th best RB in the draft and that was before ran the 40 in the 4.6's.
I have no read on Young as a pro. I think he could be incredible, or could be terrible. Before this year (and I think you are on the mark about comparing him to Matt Jones before this year), I had serious doubts about his ability to even be considered a pro QB. He was entertaining, but flawed and limited. My biggest worry is that he generally makes one dreadful throw every game, and that can kill you in the pros. Winning teams turn the ball over less than their opponents.He did improve a great deal this year. It was really amazing. I also think that he is going to surprise people with his speed and his strength. He doesn't look that fast- it looks like he is gliding and going 3/4 speed, and then you realize there are three guys in other colored jerseys running as fast as they can without the ball, and they are losing ground. He gets to the edge extremely fast for a big man, and while the NFL game is faster, he still going to be either faster or stronger than most of his opponents. Additionally, you can hit him with a clean shot in the pocket, and he can remain upright. He throws a good deep ball and has a big enough arm that if his teammates break long on broken plays in the pocket, he could create huge plays regularly. The big question is: can he eliminate those horrible throws? I do think you will have to be patient with him if you draft him, and really change your offense to best utilize his skills. You can't try to make him into something he is not.

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
If Matt Jones was black and played for Texas, would he have been considered one of the top 2 QB prospects in the draft?
If he had just won a national championship and set an NCAA record by pasing for over 3,000 yards and rushing for over 1,000 yards in the same season, then maybe. Besides, I thought Jones had shoulder problems that also worked against him as far as playing QB in the NFL.
Vince Young was going to be drafted as a QB regardless of what happened in the Rose Bowl. Matt Jones' numbers weren't far behind Young's and he played on a much worse team in Arkansas. I don't know about his shoulder problems, but it seems to me that he was never given a chance to be an NFL QB.
There was no question that Vince was going to be a QB, Rose Bowl or no Rose bowl, that is true. However, there were real questions if he would be a QB prior to this season, when his numbers were similar to Jones. However, this year, he had a year that answered questions about drafting him to play QB. And sorry, Jones never had a season like Vince did. Matt Jones never threw for more than 2100 yards or 18tds. Young put up 3000 and 26.
Young did it at Texas and Matt Jones at Arkansas. I don't think the talent is comparable.
LOL. You're grasping. Matt Jones never looked like Vince Young in any department - passing, running, leading, etc.
 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
a recent article evaluating VYs draft prospects, acknowledging his quirky throwing motion, but which nonetheless remains ultimately positive...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3599786.html

VINCE YOUNG: DRAFT PROSPECT

He's got them talking

Can a QB who doesn't have a classic throwing motion and is used to the shotgun make it in the NFL? Yes, say the experts

By JOHN MCCLAIN

Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

The Vince Young-Reggie Bush debate officially heated up Thursday when the NFL announced the list of the 48 underclassmen who have entered the April draft.

The Texans have the top pick. They don't need a quarterback or running back, but Young and Bush are such special prospects that the Texans probably will draft one of them.

Once Denver offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak is named the Texans' head coach and the evaluation process intensifies, the Young-Bush debate will become full-blown for the fans and media.

Young, who played at Madison High School and led the University of Texas to the national title this year, has been campaigning like a politician to become a Texan. The Texans are listening, but they've got three months before they have to make a decision.

"He's a great athlete who's been very productive," Texans general manager Charley Casserly said of Young. "He's a tremendous runner. The thing he's got going is that leadership and competitiveness."

While most league personnel contacted by the Chronicle believe Young will be a star in the NFL, some scouts point out that he primarily played in the shotgun formation with the Longhorns and grew accustomed to not taking snaps under center. Others note that he does not have a classic throwing motion.

Regarding the first point, it should be noted that NFL quarterbacks such as Steve McNair, Byron Leftwich and Drew Brees played in a shotgun formation in college.

"I don't think that's going to be a problem for him," Casserly said. "There are some good quarterbacks in our league who worked out of a spread offense in college.

"As the season went on, you could see that he became more comfortable with their offense. You could see him playing with more and more confidence."

As the evaluation process continues, the Texans will spend a lot of time with Young.

"I haven't spoken with him yet, but I will," Casserly said.

Titans a possibility

If the Texans pass up Young, he could end up with the Tennessee Titans, who have the third pick behind the New Orleans Saints.

"One of the things that impressed me so much was the way he took that team on his shoulders and carried them to wins in some big games against teams like Ohio State and Southern Cal," Titans director of player personnel Rich Snead said. "When the games were on the line, he made big plays. And the bigger the game, the better he played."

Young and McNair have been friends since McNair played for the Oilers. Last year, the Titans quarterback worked with Young on his passing.

"He's got an awkward motion, but I wouldn't change it," Snead said. "Young shortened his release. He used to throw like Randall Cunningham. He still doesn't have a perfect release like John Elway or Dan Marino, but not many do.

"Another thing that really stands out is his movement skills. A guy with his size who can move like that doesn't need to be as accurate. He can move to buy time until a receiver breaks free."

C.O. Brocato, the Titans' national coordinator of college scouting, has been evaluating players in Texas for almost 35 years.

Instincts lauded

"Young's got sound football intelligence and great instincts," Brocato said. "He's a great kid, too, a real team guy who's respected by his coaches and teammates."

Young improved dramatically as a passer from his sophomore to junior seasons.

"He's a great athlete with a tremendous upside, but he needs to work on his passing game," Brocato said. "He's worked real hard to improve as a passer. They did a good job of coaching him. They gave him good game plans.

"You could see that improvement over the course of the season. His touch on short passes got better. He became more accurate on his deep balls, although he threw some up for grabs, and those tall receivers went up to get them. He still forced some balls, but all quarterbacks do.

"His pocket presence has improved, too, and a lot of that's instinctive. This season, he saw the whole field a lot better. And he's learned to look at second and third receivers more."

Running gets riskier

Young won't be able to rely on his running ability in the NFL as much as he did in the Big 12.

"He's a super runner, but I worry about his straight-up style," Brocato said. "He's going to be running against NFL players who'll try to knock his head off.

"He's got great feet. He can make you miss. Even though he's almost 6-5, he's got quick feet. A defensive player can be bearing down on him, and with a flick of one foot, Vince will shake him. He changes direction so quick."

Green Bay Packers scout Alonzo Highsmith, who played at the University of Miami and was the Oilers' top pick (third overall) in the 1987 draft, has watched Young develop since high school.

"I sat next to Vince at a football banquet, and I was impressed with him back then," Highsmith said. "I liked the way he carried himself and the way he treated people."

A league of their own

Highsmith puts Young and Bush on a different plane than other prospects.

"Like Reggie, Vince is a unique talent," Highsmith said. "People talk about his mechanics, but hey, Arnold Palmer didn't have a perfect swing, did he? If you're 10-of-10 sitting on your butt, what does it matter? We see guys every Sunday with good mechanics who can't win.

"The ball gets to where it's going in a hurry, and he's very accurate. And he's the most accurate when the team needs him the most."

Ask any scout about Young, and the first thing mentioned is what a leader he is.

"Since I've been involved in college football, I've never seen anyone with his leadership ability," Highsmith said. "It's a natural thing, but there's no reason he can't continue to be this type of leader in the NFL. It's just going to take some time."

 
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-OZ-

Footballguy
The biggest one IMO is his accuracy. I know his passing % was high, but that was simply because if a WR wasn't wide open, he'd run.
Now I'm not usually one to get angry here, but I am getting sick and tired of people making wildly inaccurate assertions about Vince like these as though they are fact. I have no idea if you are a Texas season ticket holder or a guy who's seen a couple of his games on TV here and there, but I have to believe it's the latter. Many people have made the point about his radical improvement over his 3 years on the field, so I think that's well covered, but if you go back and watch every game he played this year, you will see him stick the ball in some tight spots and do it very accurately.

I'll stick to some plays from the ones I think you've seen.

1) The game-winning TD throw at Ohio State.

Sweed was totally covered, and Vince had to drop the ball over a CB very close to Sweed, sticking it right on the edge of the endzone. And he did. That's a big-time NFL throw to win the biggest game of his life to that point.

2) The almost-TD to Sweed vs USC

If you go back and watch that video breakdown of every throw in the Rose Bowl, you'll see one of the last pass plays with about :45 secs left in the game. Before Vince ran to set up his final score, he threw a great touch pass to the back of the end zone to Sweed, who was well-covered once again. The pass was incomplete, but it had no chance to be picked off b/c Vince put it where only his guy could get it. The USC DB made a great play to knock it from Sweed's hand, but he again threw into tight coverage in the endzone late in in a huge game and made a great throw.

Sometimes you could argue Vince tried to do too much and got a few of his picks trying to thread the needle. That could get him in trouble in the NFL. But to say that unless a guy was wide open he didn't throw is just wrong.

:hot: :rant: :thumbdown: :wall: :shock: :rolleyes: :X
Calm down bucky. As I've said repeatedly, I'm a fan of the guy. Obviously I'm not a season ticket holder, but we get quite a few UT games up here.

VY has thrown the ball more this year, and improved a lot, no doubt about it. Just don't make it sound like he always throws into tight coverage.

Would you have been happy if I'd said he's more apt to run than the other top QBs? That the defense has to pay more attention to his running, thus taking away from coverage schemes?

Argue it all you want to, but the simple fact is his passing % would not have been as high if he didn't run as much. (or have the ability to) This isn't really an insult to his game, but he doesn't have Peyton Manning's accuracy - yet his career % is only 0.7% lower, and his best year (05 for VY, 95 for PM) is a full 1% higher.

My statement may have been overly simplistic, but there is truth behind it.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
the tennesee connection we all need to be thinking about is this:

Fisher and Chow are USC guys. Leinhart, White, Bush are USC guys..its almost a LOCK they take one of these 3..
Both are too intelligent to take a USC guy just because they (1) have a connection with the school or (2) used to coach them.They will draft the best player for their system, but it's somewhat strange that they have a connection with the top 3 players and the other top 3 QB.

 

cstu

Footballguy
Jaws played with a guy (Cunningham) who played much the same as Young and here's what he had to say:

JANUARY 11I watched him, just like everyone else did, in the Rose Bowl. Vince Young was phenomenal in that game, he did some things that I've never seen a college quarterback do and he won the national championship for Texas.But in the NFL, Vince Young is going to meet a whole different animal: Defenses with high levels of sophistication, players who are just as fast as he is, and coordinators who have eaten up young quarterbacks many, many times over the years.I'm not saying Young won't ever be a great NFL quarterback. I just want to hold the hype for now, because when people talk about Young revolutionizing the game like Randall Cunningham, hey, Randall never reached a Super Bowl and, in fact, had his greatest success late in his career when he learned to play from the pocket.Before Young revolutionizes anything, he must learn to play the quarterback position. He must be a maestro of the position, not a running back playing quarterback.Check out this stat: Of the 12 starting quarterbacks in this year's playoffs, they averaged 4.32 yards rushing PER GAME. Did I make that clear enough?These run-around, mobile quarterbacks, yeah, they make plays, but that does not give you consistent play from the quarterback position.When I project this guy into the NFL game, I don't see it yet. He has all kinds of athletic ability, but he needs to learn to play quarterback.
Good job, Jaws.
 

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