War in Israel (1 Viewer)

[unckeyherb]

I have a serious question the life for Palestinians and within Gaza only got bad once Hamas became the ruling party in 2007. Why did the people not remove from Hamas from power. This is well documented. Why have the Palestinians not united and said Hamas has made our life difficult with all restrictions imposed since Hamas took over lets oust them from power so we can have a normal life. That has not happened.

This sort of thinking borders on blaming the rape victim for the clothes she is wearing. When you are struggling to get enough food and clean water for your family, many times, that is your focus. Surviving rather than thriving

Gaza has received billions of dollars in foreign aid. I wonder what life would look like for the Palestinian people if Hamas focused on building up an infrastructure rather than digging tunnels and buying rockets.

 

[massraider]

We'll learn more with the passage of time, but there is a decent chance that Putin expressly supported the Hamas attack

I'm sure he's not shocked to see people using this war to demand we stop supporting Ukraine.

 

[Jayrod]

Anyone using the past actions of Israel to even remotely justify the actions of Hamas (and doing so a few days after babies are being beheaded) are showing their true colors.

"What else are they supposed to do?" GTFO with that. How about not murder, rape and desecrate the bodies of those you've just killed? Sorry your homes are being bulldozed and you are being pushed off of land you think is yours, but there is a lot of nuance involved there. The acts of terrorism are not nuanced and are categorically vile, evil and have no place in any society at any time. This is Mongolian hordes, pre-WW2 Japan level stuff. The worst atrocities in human history.

Anyone not immediately and fully decrying it for what it is are at the least being calloused and inhumane. At worst they are just plain anti-Semitic, racist and evil themselves.

 

[the moops]

I have a serious question the life for Palestinians and within Gaza only got bad once Hamas became the ruling party in 2007. Why did the people not remove from Hamas from power. This is well documented. Why have the Palestinians not united and said Hamas has made our life difficult with all restrictions imposed since Hamas took over lets oust them from power so we can have a normal life. That has not happened.

This sort of thinking borders on blaming the rape victim for the clothes she is wearing. When you are struggling to get enough food and clean water for your family, many times, that is your focus. Surviving rather than thriving

Gaza has received billions of dollars in foreign aid. I wonder what life would look like for the Palestinian people if Hamas focused on building up an infrastructure rather than digging tunnels and buying rockets.

No doubt. But that is a different scenario than the one where we are questioning why the Palestinian people haven't risen up

 

[The Commish]

Note she says "resistance" not "terrorism" and blames the "apartheid government."

That's pretty much a go **** yourself to Israel, isn't it?

Not really. There are two components to this problem. For whatever reason there are many who just want to look at one of those components. I support Israel, but my support is no longer unconditional as it was when I was younger. I am now speaking outside of the events of this last weekend specifically. They make day-to-day life pretty poor for Palestinians. We shouldn't ignore that. We also need to distinguish between the average, everyday Palestinian and the radical groups like Hamas. She seems to be speaking of the everyday people of Palestine. Or to put it another way, if she were a poster here and someone challenged her, she'd likely give a popular response given by many here. Something along the lines of "there are a ton of people here speaking ill of Hamas already. I have nothing to add to that part, so I am focused on the other part of this equation that is Israel". She's not entirely wrong, but i do think this is completely and totally the wrong time to be bringing this sort of nuance up. It's just asking for trouble.

I have a serious question the life for Palestinians and within Gaza only got bad once Hamas became the ruling party in 2007. Why did the people not remove from Hamas from power. This is well documented. Why have the Palestinians not united and said Hamas has made our life difficult with all restrictions imposed since Hamas took over lets oust them from power so we can have a normal life. That has not happened.

I'd argue against your first comment that Palestinian life was just fine until Hamas came around, but the more interesting question is what follows. The short answer is, there is no democracy there and the people have very few means to initiate a ground up overthrowing of the "government". To my knowledge, there hasn't been a single vote of any sort since Hamas took over. This is the MO of most radical groups.

 

[The Commish]

I have family in Israel. Hamas knew what they were doing. The government is in flux, it’s a holiday this week with Sukodt…..Israel will strike back with a vengeance and it won’t end well.

This is now a war….not a skirmish.

Terrible.

Todem, can you share what is happening over in Israel from anyone there on the ground?

I have read 1,000+ people killed in Israel and they are still pulling bodies out
I have also seen some big explosions and the lie in the Gaza strip,
I would imagine the photos and video from those locations is going to be full of injured people and hard to watch for some

What happens if Israel does lower the boom and perhaps another countries unite against them? I've heard no countries want to take the Palestinians in across their borders
Humanitarian Crisis, those two words are going to start appearing all over the TVs

My cousins have told me they have secured their borders again and are surgically striking them. Over 1000 dead in Israel and rising as they find more bodies.

They live in a town called Kadima Tzoran which is 60 miles north of Gaza.

This is a war. Hamas went all in by carrying out this premeditated terror attack.Their hope to get a massive, devastating response in the hope the world will turn against Israel. So basically they are willing to sacrifice all their people to see Israel be potentially annihilated but the rest of the muslim world.

They are simply sick in the head.

Israel knows this. They will be surgical for the most part. The mission is to eliminate and destroy Hamas’s capabilities. Basically set them back a decade hopefully. Gaza will never be the same again.

2 state solution? Forget it.

The fact neighboring countries are hard closing their borders......should tell you something. They want nothing to do with the Palestinians.

It’s a really horrible tragedy for Israel......and soon it will be for the 100’s of thousands of innocent Palestinians who allowed Hamas to be their leaders. As another poster pointed out.

You reap what you sow.

If hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians are killed, that’s not surgical.

I don’t pretend to have the answers to this problem, but escalating violence isn’t the right path.

I've known Tommy for a long time on here, pretty authentic whether you agree or disagree.
There were several I highlighted on Page 1 that immediately were concerned about a humanitarian crisis which is real and I believe that is what you are concerned about

Rather than ask if you have any compassion towards the Israelis who were murdered, I would prefer to praise you for thinking about others that nobody is going to say a lot about right now. I watched entire buildings razed today in Gaza, it's disturbing to watch but so was this past Saturday and the last 2-3 days thru social media and the like,

10 years ago I might have wanted to try and punch at you thru the screen, now I want to sit down and pour us a drink, see what we can find common ground on.
The problem TG, these folks don't think like you and I do, you value human life, I know you do. Some of these folks don't including Hamas which has endangered 2Million people right now

But I know you feel bad for the people trapped in Gaza right now, and Hamas is likely counting on it because again I don't understand how you wage war on a nuclear armed country with so much more at their disposal, laser guided missiles, war planes armed to the tooth, well trained ground assault ready to roll as we speak...there is no way they could think they would defeat the Israeli Army, they want Israel to make a big military display in the coming days, for some reason it benefits Hamas

Glad to see you TG

Good to see you as well MOP. Hope you and the Mrs are well.

Full disclosure, my wife is Jewish, and her family tree more closely resembles a weed due to the Holocaust. I’m biased toward Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization and are responsible for their actions on Saturday.

But this is obviously bigger than Saturday, and eye-for-an-eye responses have gone on for far too long. At some point restraint has to be the way forward. Would I be able to walk that walk if it were my kids who had been brutally murdered? Probably not, but we need that kind of leadership.

And as James Baldwin said: “If I am starving, you are not safe.” Thats no excuse for Hamas, but it’s true.

Except the Palestinians weren't starving, not even close. It wasn't as comfortable as the majority of 1st world countries, but it's wasn’t as bad as Aden or Damascus either. They don't have one of the fastest population growth rates in the world if they were starving.

That's all changing now, and food and necessities are going to be scarce for their near future...so they may be able to play the "starving" card soon enough, but it was not the case prior to this week.

Gaza is an extremely poor, impoverished place with food shortages and lack of access to clean water. And it’s adjacent to one of the richest countries on earth.

I’m not making excuses for Hamas’ savagery. Just pointing out that those conditions are ripe for violence. When people have nothing to lose bad **** happens.

I watched some videos last night that I can`t unsee. I did not sleep last night. The horrors are unimaginable.

This is not war when innocent civilians are just living their day to day lives and are tortured, raped and slaughtered by a mob. Walking up and shooting family pets, then killing whole families, then going into their homes and eating and drinking food from their fridge like nothing happened while bodies are laying around them.

Of course Putin does not say one word to condemn the slaughter, only that it is all Americas fault.

Putin can't really say anything. His military is doing very similar things in Ukraine. The actions in both conflicts are VERY similar.

 

[Joe Bryant]

There's a video on Reddit of a Hasidic family confiscating a Palestinian home,

Thank you. Is it right to think of Palestine as like a colony of Israel? Palestine is not its own country, right?

And Israel treats them badly with stuff like the links you mentioned?

And absolutely what Hamas did/is doing is terrorism and abhorrent. I'm just trying to understand the relationship.

When people talk about a "two state" thing, that means Israel letting go of Palestine and allowing Palestine to be it's own country?

So is this like Palestine trying to be independent of Israel?

I'm sorry to be asking what I'm sure are dumb questions. Just trying to make sure I understand.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Note she says "resistance" not "terrorism" and blames the "apartheid government."

That's pretty much a go **** yourself to Israel, isn't it?

Not really. There are two components to this problem. For whatever reason there are many who just want to look at one of those components. I support Israel, but my support is no longer unconditional as it was when I was younger. I am now speaking outside of the events of this last weekend specifically. They make day-to-day life pretty poor for Palestinians. We shouldn't ignore that. We also need to distinguish between the average, everyday Palestinian and the radical groups like Hamas. She seems to be speaking of the everyday people of Palestine. Or to put it another way, if she were a poster here and someone challenged her, she'd likely give a popular response given by many here. Something along the lines of "there are a ton of people here speaking ill of Hamas already. I have nothing to add to that part, so I am focused on the other part of this equation that is Israel". She's not entirely wrong, but i do think this is completely and totally the wrong time to be bringing this sort of nuance up. It's just asking for trouble.

I have a serious question the life for Palestinians and within Gaza only got bad once Hamas became the ruling party in 2007. Why did the people not remove from Hamas from power. This is well documented. Why have the Palestinians not united and said Hamas has made our life difficult with all restrictions imposed since Hamas took over lets oust them from power so we can have a normal life. That has not happened.

I'd argue against your first comment that Palestinian life was just fine until Hamas came around, but the more interesting question is what follows. The short answer is, there is no democracy there and the people have very few means to initiate a ground up overthrowing of the "government". To my knowledge, there hasn't been a single vote of any sort since Hamas took over. This is the MO of most radical groups.

This is what I tried to say up-thread. Hamas has been a de facto government for many years now and I don't know what capabilities the Palestinians in Gaza have to even attempt an overthrow of Hamas if they wanted to. I think most are concerned with not dying in bombings and attacks by Israelis and making sure that their family has food to eat.

 

[Sand]

Note she says "resistance" not "terrorism" and blames the "apartheid government."

That's pretty much a go **** yourself to Israel, isn't it?

Not really. There are two components to this problem. For whatever reason there are many who just want to look at one of those components. I support Israel, but my support is no longer unconditional as it was when I was younger. I am now speaking outside of the events of this last weekend specifically. They make day-to-day life pretty poor for Palestinians. We shouldn't ignore that. We also need to distinguish between the average, everyday Palestinian and the radical groups like Hamas. She seems to be speaking of the everyday people of Palestine. Or to put it another way, if she were a poster here and someone challenged her, she'd likely give a popular response given by many here. Something along the lines of "there are a ton of people here speaking ill of Hamas already. I have nothing to add to that part, so I am focused on the other part of this equation that is Israel". She's not entirely wrong, but i do think this is completely and totally the wrong time to be bringing this sort of nuance up. It's just asking for trouble.

The average, everyday Palestinian in Dearborn was busy chanting "From the River to the Sea" yesterday. Nice folk there.

Metro Detroit Arab, Jewish communities mourn, rally amid violence in Middle East

Rallies reveal how emotionally intense the past few days have been for multiple metro Detroit communities with differing perspectives on the conflict.

www.freep.com

 

[beer 30]

It does matter in how response is understood.

40 children of any age dying in a war is tragic and a curse up on all adults in the world that can't settle their differences without it happening.

But a mistake can be understood in geopolitics. Collateral damage is a difficult but real cost of war.

This isn't that. Again, Hamas purposely had to do this by hand. Not by drone. Not by missile. Not by mistake. They had to intend to do exactly what they did here.

They get no benefit of any doubt anymore if this is true. Ever.

I agree that killing children pretty much puts you in a special area but the method is such that, if possible, the response will be even more devastating. It's like looking at a darker shade of black.

Ukraine, and our support of them, has absolutely nothing to do with this

I don't believe in absolutes and I absolutely don't believe this statement.

I don’t think the two state solution can be dead. It remains the only viable solution, difficult as it will be to achieve. The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza aren’t going anywhere, there is no way to make them disappear. There can’t be a one state solution because the Muslims would numerically swamp the Jews and that would mean the end of Israel.

Which means there ultimately needs to be a State of Palestine existing next to a State of Israel. Long term that’s the only way to offer Israel real security.

It can't be dead but it's going to take a generation for it to be a viable discussion again.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

 

[gianmarco]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

No.

Because they want the land back that Israel is on.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

No.

Because they want the land back that Israel is on.

Do the Palestinians want to have the land that they're already on or do they want more than that?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

This piece which was linked from within my previous post has a brief summary about the history.

And this one goes into the "2-state" part (and why -in his opinion- it won't work). Excerpt:

This (he laid out right before this that (a) they’re non-contiguous and (b) they are controlled by two different political leaderships) means that Gaza and the West Bank are part of a single “nation” only in the sense that they both think of themselves as Palestinian, they both dream of a united Palestinian state, and the international community thinks of them as part of one people. But geographically, economically, politically, and militarily, they are already separate entities. And since Israel is unlikely to be wiped off the map, they will remain separate entities in any foreseeable “solution”.​

 

[gianmarco]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

First, read this link that @Nathan R. Jessep posted. It's really, really good.

But, that whole area is "holy land" to both Israelis and Palestinians.

After WWII, Europe gave that land to "Israel" as location for all the displaced Jews to settle. They did this by pushing out the Arabs (Palestinians) that had been living there for thousands of years (even though Israel was there even before then). They were confined to a small area in an effort to have some concession.

Since then, Palestinians have tried to take the land back and get rid of Israel. This conflict has continued and only gotten uglier.

Palestinians don't want to go somewhere else. They just want Israel gone and their land back.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

This piece which was linked from within my previous post has a brief summary about the history.

And this one goes into the "2-state" part (and why -in his opinion- it won't work). Excerpt:

This (he laid out right before this that (a) they’re non-contiguous and (b) they are controlled by two different political leaderships) means that Gaza and the West Bank are part of a single “nation” only in the sense that they both think of themselves as Palestinian, they both dream of a united Palestinian state, and the international community thinks of them as part of one people. But geographically, economically, politically, and militarily, they are already separate entities. And since Israel is unlikely to be wiped off the map, they will remain separate entities in any foreseeable “solution”.​

Thanks.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Thank you. Is it right to think of Palestine as like a colony of Israel?

You can kinda make this comparison for the west bank, but Gaza has pretty much zero similarities to a colony.

Israel doesn't mine anything there, farm anything, or gain anything of value from Gaza.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Palestinians don't want to go somewhere else. They just want Israel gone and their land back.

That's what I meant when I asked, "Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

 

[Stoneworker]

Anyone think Netanyahu is in favor of peaceful two state plan isn't paying attention to the ministers he has brought in. They are hard line right wing, one of the things that means is they weren't interested in deals even before the latest atrocities.

Netanyahu, now prime minister, allowed Qatar in 2018 to begin sending millions of dollars to Hamas’s government to boost the economic incentives for the militant group to maintain peace. In 2021, he began increasing the number of Gazans permitted to work in Israel.

By this year, that number had reached nearly 20,000. Israeli security officials felt that the work permits could be incentives for Hamas to keep the peace. If Hamas attacked, the border would be closed, and thousands of Gazan families would lose their livelihoods until Hamas restored calm.

Source: WSJ

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Sorry your homes are being bulldozed and you are being pushed off of land you think is yours, but there is a lot of nuance involved there.

I mean... really?

In the US we allow people with guns to kill anyone who enters their home illegally. And we're just going to hand-wave away that Israelis are allowed to straight up confiscate Palestinian homes?

Palestinians weren't killing their Jewish neighbors for hundreds of years prior to the agitation for an Israeli state -- and Jewish immigration to Palestine -- in the 1880s and then the establishment of Israel in 1948. We can talk about the ancient history all we want, but the two populations had lived in relative peace for nearly 400 years prior to that.

As I said upstream -- if you intentionally target and kill innocents you lose all right to exist in human society as far as I'm concerned. I'm here for the "and find out" portion of the program. But to ignore that is blinkered IMO.

 

[timschochet]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

No.

Because they want the land back that Israel is on.

Do the Palestinians want to have the land that they're already on or do they want more than that?

The traditional Palestinian position is that they want all of what is now the State of Israel- Israel would then cease to exist. A majority of Palestinians have always insisted on this. And it is the position of Hamas.

The minority Palestinian position, supported by the Palestinian Authority that governs the West Bank, but not Hamas, is for two states living side by side. But there have been two issues that have prevented any agreement: first the Palestinians have always insisted on what has been called the Right of Return- meaning that any Palestinian who wants to can move back to Israel and become an Israeli citizen with full voting rights. Because Palestinians outnumber Israeli Jews that would dramatically change the nature of Israel, or actually destroy it.

The second issue is Jerusalem. It is a holy site for Muslims throughout the world just as it is for Christians and Jews. The United States’ formal position, along with most of Europe, for decades, was that Jerusalem should be an international city with rights for all 3 religions. That’s why our embassy was always in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem. And it’s why President Trump’s decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem was met with such approval by Netanyahu, terrible anger by Palestinians, and consternation among much of the rest of the world.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Palestinians don't want to go somewhere else. They just want Israel gone and their land back.

That's what I meant when I asked, "Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

Getting their land back means Israel would be gone forever.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

No.

Because they want the land back that Israel is on.

Do the Palestinians want to have the land that they're already on or do they want more than that?

More. All of current Israel.

 

[massraider]

Have a family friend who's wife has been in Israel for over a week. He has been communicating with her, and trying to make arrangements but communication wasn't easy, and last we heard she was at a hotel, maybe in Jerusalem, but they were wary about sending details.
She's also 82 years old, and was a flighty little bird 20 years ago, she's not built for this.

Just heard she is scheduled on a flight, and will be in Boston tomorrow. Big sigh from the family, this couple is pretty much family.

 

[song]

The rational response would be to eliminate the terror threat.

sadly, this is at least as unrealistic as what i suggested was rational. (compassion)

you can mitigate, which means this continues into an increasingly dangerous future.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This little child destroying a flower bouquet is quite telling.

Also again, this is just a perfect illustration of Palestine. Imagine showing up at the Israeli embassy after this tragedy to protest.

This Twitter user sometimes posts misleading stuff. Like I have no idea if the police really told the mourners to leave. But I can't think of any rational other explanation for that mother and son to be destroying a flower bouquet. So I think that part of this is pretty irrefutable.

 

[Snotbubbles]

The rational response would be to eliminate the terror threat.

sadly, this is at least as unrealistic as what i suggested was rational. (compassion)

you can mitigate, which means this continues into an increasingly dangerous future.

You can't eliminate the terror threat by force.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Newser | Headline News Summaries, World News, and Breaking News

Current news summaries and breaking stories about politics, business, health, sports, technology, and entertainment. | Newser

www.newser.com

Gaza’s only power plant ran out of fuel Wednesday afternoon, forcing it to shut down after Israel cut off supplies, the Energy Ministry said. That leaves only generators to power the territory — but they also run on fuel that is in short supply.​

 

[bcat01]

Note she says "resistance" not "terrorism" and blames the "apartheid government."

That's pretty much a go **** yourself to Israel, isn't it?

Not really. There are two components to this problem. For whatever reason there are many who just want to look at one of those components. I support Israel, but my support is no longer unconditional as it was when I was younger. I am now speaking outside of the events of this last weekend specifically. They make day-to-day life pretty poor for Palestinians. We shouldn't ignore that. We also need to distinguish between the average, everyday Palestinian and the radical groups like Hamas. She seems to be speaking of the everyday people of Palestine. Or to put it another way, if she were a poster here and someone challenged her, she'd likely give a popular response given by many here. Something along the lines of "there are a ton of people here speaking ill of Hamas already. I have nothing to add to that part, so I am focused on the other part of this equation that is Israel". She's not entirely wrong, but i do think this is completely and totally the wrong time to be bringing this sort of nuance up. It's just asking for trouble.

The average, everyday Palestinian in Dearborn was busy chanting "From the River to the Sea" yesterday. Nice folk there.

Metro Detroit Arab, Jewish communities mourn, rally amid violence in Middle East

Rallies reveal how emotionally intense the past few days have been for multiple metro Detroit communities with differing perspectives on the conflict.

www.freep.com

And those "nice folk" have a Congresswoman that supports them.

 

[parasaurolophus]

The rational response would be to eliminate the terror threat.

sadly, this is at least as unrealistic as what i suggested was rational. (compassion)

you can mitigate, which means this continues into an increasingly dangerous future.

You can't eliminate the terror threat by force.

You can't eliminate it with compassion either. One way keeps it at bay. One way invites it in.

The logical choice would be to obliterate Hamas by all means necessary and create as many buffers as you can.

Because the deep hatred of Israel will not go away.

 

[timschochet]

Newser | Headline News Summaries, World News, and Breaking News

Current news summaries and breaking stories about politics, business, health, sports, technology, and entertainment. | Newser

www.newser.com

Gaza’s only power plant ran out of fuel Wednesday afternoon, forcing it to shut down after Israel cut off supplies, the Energy Ministry said. That leaves only generators to power the territory — but they also run on fuel that is in short supply.​

I hate to be a cynic but part of me suspects that Netanyahu formed a unity government to deter the criticism he may receive for his policies towards Hamas contributing to this crisis.

 

[jamny]

The Jews believe the land is theirs because it was the Promised Land.
Is there a religious reason that the Palestinians believe it is theirs besides it being the Muslim holy land?
Do claims go back go back to the conquest of Canaan or the Roman exile of the Jews and subsequent Palestina?

Just wondering how far back the Palestinians go to claim the land is theirs.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

No.

Because they want the land back that Israel is on.

Do the Palestinians want to have the land that they're already on or do they want more than that?

The traditional Palestinian position is that they want all of what is now the State of Israel- Israel would then cease to exist. A majority of Palestinians have always insisted on this. And it is the position of Hamas.

The minority Palestinian position, supported by the Palestinian Authority that governs the West Bank, but not Hamas, is for two states living side by side. But there have been two issues that have prevented any agreement: first the Palestinians have always insisted on what has been called the Right of Return- meaning that any Palestinian who wants to can move back to Israel and become an Israeli citizen with full voting rights. Because Palestinians outnumber Israeli Jews that would dramatically change the nature of Israel, or actually destroy it.

The second issue is Jerusalem. It is a holy site for Muslims throughout the world just as it is for Christians and Jews. The United States’ formal position, along with most of Europe, for decades, was that Jerusalem should be an international city with rights for all 3 religions. That’s why our embassy was always in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem. And it’s why President Trump’s decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem was met with such approval by Netanyahu, terrible anger by Palestinians, and consternation among much of the rest of the world.

Thank you. So it would be like in the US Revolutionary War, it would be as if the colonies wanted to be free of England and also take over all the land in England too, right?

It's easy to see why Israel can't allow that.

It seems like the 2 state solution where the current territory where Palestinians are now could be let go by Israel and let them exist in the geographic they are now is much more reasonable. Like the US did with England.

But obviously there are complications in play. Thanks for sharing those.

What a mess.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The traditional Palestinian position is that they want all of what is now the State of Israel- Israel would then cease to exist. A majority of Palestinians have always insisted on this. And it is the position of Hamas.

The minority Palestinian position, supported by the Palestinian Authority that governs the West Bank, but not Hamas, is for two states living side by side. But there have been two issues that have prevented any agreement: first the Palestinians have always insisted on what has been called the Right of Return- meaning that any Palestinian who wants to can move back to Israel and become an Israeli citizen with full voting rights. Because Palestinians outnumber Israeli Jews that would dramatically change the nature of Israel, or actually destroy it.

The second issue is Jerusalem. It is a holy site for Muslims throughout the world just as it is for Christians and Jews. The United States’ formal position, along with most of Europe, for decades, was that Jerusalem should be an international city with rights for all 3 religions. That’s why our embassy was always in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem. And it’s why President Trump’s decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem was met with such approval by Netanyahu, terrible anger by Palestinians, and consternation among much of the rest of the world.

Thank you. That's super helpful.

 

[dickey moe]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

First, read this link that @Nathan R. Jessep posted. It's really, really good.

But, that whole area is "holy land" to both Israelis and Palestinians.

After WWII, Europe gave that land to "Israel" as location for all the displaced Jews to settle. They did this by pushing out the Arabs (Palestinians) that had been living there for thousands of years (even though Israel was there even before then). They were confined to a small area in an effort to have some concession.

Since then, Palestinians have tried to take the land back and get rid of Israel. This conflict has continued and only gotten uglier.

Palestinians don't want to go somewhere else. They just want Israel gone and their land back.

Which seems to be an all-or-nothing proposition for the Palestinians. And if Israel gives something up, it probably will never be enough. It's why a two-state solution appears to be untenable.

 

[Fat Nick]

I was all-in on coverage of this initially, but honestly I've started to stop reading things because...well...it's just getting to be too much. Sad all around. Anger all around. I think the reason why this has gone on for decades is truly because it is so complex. Both sides have a legitimate claim to the lands depending on where in history you want to legitimize a claim. Both sides have committed atrocities against civilians (NOT equating the magnitude, but neither side is guiltless).

The Palestinian side is exponentially more complicated in my eyes because Hamas ≠ Palestine in all aspects. Hamas is evil. I stand fully in that court. NO group who did what has been done over the past few days (and at times before) has any reason to be on the face of this earth...but Hamas is not Gaza, and Palestinians aren't all part of Hamas. Unfortunately, when Israel defends itself with counter-strikes aimed at Hamas, it also indirectly targets Palestinians who may or may not be aligned with Hamas' actions, and who have nowhere else to go to flee the attack. Geographically, they are one and the same. Philosophically, some are, some aren't - and it's not a binary scale. I'm sure some would welcome a divided state where both can live peacefully. I'm sure there are some who would wipe out the entire Jewish population the second they laid down their arms.

Regardless, the end result is civilian casualties, which justify further attacks and escalations and the cycle repeats. It's awful. It's hard to watch. It hurts to watch a Palestinian father holding their dead child just as much as an Israeli father holding their dead child.

 

[timschochet]

The Jews believe the land is theirs because it was the Promised Land.
Is there a religious reason that the Palestinians believe it is theirs besides it being the Muslim holy land?
Do claims go back go back to the conquest of Canaan or the Roman exile of the Jews and subsequent Palestina?

Just wondering how far back the Palestinians go to claim the land is theirs.

Actually the gist of the claim goes to 1948 and not much farther back. Most of the Palestinians who now live in Gaza and the West Bank lived then in what is now Israel. Then they fled en masse when the war started. According to the Israelis they mostly left of their own accord. According to the Palestinians they were forced out. The truth is murky and probably falls somewhere in between the stories the two sides tell.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

So it would be like in the US Revolutionary War, the colonies wanted to be free of England and also take over all the land in England too, right?

No, not like that.

I would be like the UN declaring that since many Mexicans still considered Texas to be a historical holy land, Mexicans would be allowed to move to Texas and establish a new Mexican country from today forward. Mexico del Norte, around San Antonio.

And then, instead of surrendering, the Texans who lost their homes declared war on Mexico del Norte, and lost so badly that Mexico del Norte seized lands around Houston and Austin too.

And then for the next 75 years the Texans refused to accept Mexico del Norte, and decided to try and reestablish the 2023 border instead.

(obviously there's a lot left out here -- especially the impetus for creating a Jewish homeland after WWII, i.e. the Holocaust)

(ETA: and Mexicans already have a home too, so maybe not the best choice there either.)

 

[The Commish]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

Palestine has multiple groups with multiple messages....in my view, it's rather unwise to try and lump them all together. There are some in Palestine that want Hamas doing what they're doing. Those people not only want the land they are on, but also all of Israel.

 

[Jayrod]

Sorry your homes are being bulldozed and you are being pushed off of land you think is yours, but there is a lot of nuance involved there.

I mean... really?

In the US we allow people with guns to kill anyone who enters their home illegally. And we're just going to hand-wave away that Israelis are allowed to straight up confiscate Palestinian homes?

Palestinians weren't killing their Jewish neighbors for hundreds of years prior to the agitation for an Israeli state -- and Jewish immigration to Palestine -- in the 1880s and then the establishment of Israel in 1948. We can talk about the ancient history all we want, but the two populations had lived in relative peace for nearly 400 years prior to that.

As I said upstream -- if you intentionally target and kill innocents you lose all right to exist in human society as far as I'm concerned. I'm here for the "and find out" portion of the program. But to ignore that is blinkered IMO.

Yes, really.

This isn't exactly a short wikipedia page on the subject.

They are just walking into random Palestinian's homes and taking them away. If that were happening the world WOULD get involved. The fact that the UN and rest of the west are standing down is because there are reasons Israel is giving for these home seizures and bulldozing, most typically that the occupants were involved in terrorist activity of some kind. You can choose to not believe that and think the Israelis are lying (as Palestinians do), but it is nuanced.

I mean, sure the Ottoman's were just all cozy with the Jews... link

Antisemitism​

See also: Antisemitism in Islam, Islamic–Jewish relations, and Antisemitism in the Arab world
Historian Martin Gilbert writes that it was in the 19th century that the position of Jews worsened in Muslim countries.[38] According to Mark Cohen in The Oxford Handbook of Jewish Studies, most scholars conclude that Arab anti-Semitism in the modern world arose in the nineteenth century, against the backdrop of conflicting Jewish and Arab nationalism, and was imported into the Arab world primarily by nationalistically minded Christian Arabs (and only subsequently was it "Islamized").[39]

There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.[40] There was a massacre of Jews in Barfurush in 1867.[40]

In 1865, when the equality of all subjects of the Ottoman Empire was proclaimed, Ahmed Cevdet Pasha, a high-ranking official observed: "whereas in former times, in the Ottoman State, the communities were ranked, with the Muslims first, then the Greeks, then the Armenians, then the Jews, now all of them were put on the same level. Some Greeks objected to this, saying: 'The government has put us together with the Jews. We were content with the supremacy of Islam.'"[41]

Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to what Gilbert calls punitive taxation. In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco. In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island. In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight. In 1891, the leading Muslims in Jerusalem asked the Ottoman authorities in Constantinople to prohibit the entry of Jews arriving from Russia. In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.[38]

An important instance of anti-Semitism around this time was the Damascus affair, in which many Jews in Damascus (which was then under the leadership of Muhammad Ali of Egypt) were arrested after being accused of murdering the Christian Father Thomas and his servant in an instance of blood libel. While the authorities under Sharif Pasha, Egyptian governor of Damascus, tortured the accused until they confessed to the crime, and killed two Jews who refused to confess, prominent European Jews such as Adolphe Crémieux demanded the release of the condemned.[42]

Benny Morris writes that one symbol of Jewish degradation was the phenomenon of stone-throwing at Jews by Muslim children. Morris quotes a 19th-century traveler:

I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlers of only three and four, teaching [them] to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would, with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his Jewish gaberdine. To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mohammedan.[43]

The overwhelming majority of the Ottoman Jews lived in the European-provinces of the Empire. As the empire lost control over its European provinces in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, these Jewish communities found themselves under Christian rule. The Bosnian Jews for example came under Austro-Hungarian rule after the occupation of the region in 1878, the independence of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia further lowered the number of Jews within the borders of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[timschochet]

I was all-in on coverage of this initially, but honestly I've started to stop reading things because...well...it's just getting to be too much. Sad all around. Anger all around. I think the reason why this has gone on for decades is truly because it is so complex. Both sides have a legitimate claim to the lands depending on where in history you want to legitimize a claim. Both sides have committed atrocities against civilians (NOT equating the magnitude, but neither side is guiltless).

The Palestinian side is exponentially more complicated in my eyes because Hamas ≠ Palestine in all aspects. Hamas is evil. I stand fully in that court. NO group who did what has been done over the past few days (and at times before) has any reason to be on the face of this earth...but Hamas is not Gaza, and Palestinians aren't all part of Hamas. Unfortunately, when Israel defends itself with counter-strikes aimed at Hamas, it also indirectly targets Palestinians who may or may not be aligned with Hamas' actions, and who have nowhere else to go to flee the attack. Geographically, they are one and the same. Philosophically, some are, some aren't - and it's not a binary scale. I'm sure some would welcome a divided state where both can live peacefully. I'm sure there are some who would wipe out the entire Jewish population the second they laid down their arms.

Regardless, the end result is civilian casualties, which justify further attacks and escalations and the cycle repeats. It's awful. It's hard to watch. It hurts to watch a Palestinian father holding their dead child just as much as an Israeli father holding their dead child.

Yes Hamas is evil. No question. But we’ve worked with evil before. We were allies with the Soviet Union in order to defeat Nazi Germany and perhaps no more evil regime has ever existed. Both Trump and Biden have attempted negotiations with the Taliban, and they are every bit as savage as Hamas.

I don’t know how to work with Hamas. They’re murderers who deserve to die. But there appears to be no way to get rid of them. So now what?

 

[jamny]

The Jews believe the land is theirs because it was the Promised Land.
Is there a religious reason that the Palestinians believe it is theirs besides it being the Muslim holy land?
Do claims go back go back to the conquest of Canaan or the Roman exile of the Jews and subsequent Palestina?

Just wondering how far back the Palestinians go to claim the land is theirs.

Actually the gist of the claim goes to 1948 and not much farther back. Most of the Palestinians who now live in Gaza and the West Bank lived then in what is now Israel. Then they fled en masse when the war started. According to the Israelis they mostly left of their own accord. According to the Palestinians they were forced out. The truth is murky and probably falls somewhere in between the stories the two sides tell.

Thanks. That's what I initially thought. So there is no real religious aspect for the Palestinians?
Or are they the defacto guardians of the Muslim Holy Land?

 

[gianmarco]

Is it fair to say the Palestinian people say: "We want to be free and independent of Israel. Let us be and we'll leave Israel alone and go on."

And Israeli people say: "Palestinians only want to eliminate Israel. If we let them be free, they'll do all they can to wipe us out".

No.

Because they want the land back that Israel is on.

Do the Palestinians want to have the land that they're already on or do they want more than that?

The traditional Palestinian position is that they want all of what is now the State of Israel- Israel would then cease to exist. A majority of Palestinians have always insisted on this. And it is the position of Hamas.

The minority Palestinian position, supported by the Palestinian Authority that governs the West Bank, but not Hamas, is for two states living side by side. But there have been two issues that have prevented any agreement: first the Palestinians have always insisted on what has been called the Right of Return- meaning that any Palestinian who wants to can move back to Israel and become an Israeli citizen with full voting rights. Because Palestinians outnumber Israeli Jews that would dramatically change the nature of Israel, or actually destroy it.

The second issue is Jerusalem. It is a holy site for Muslims throughout the world just as it is for Christians and Jews. The United States’ formal position, along with most of Europe, for decades, was that Jerusalem should be an international city with rights for all 3 religions. That’s why our embassy was always in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem. And it’s why President Trump’s decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem was met with such approval by Netanyahu, terrible anger by Palestinians, and consternation among much of the rest of the world.

Thank you. So it would be like in the US Revolutionary War, it would be as if the colonies wanted to be free of England and also take over all the land in England too, right?

It's easy to see why Israel can't allow that.

It seems like the 2 state solution where the current territory where Palestinians are now could be let go by Israel and let them exist in the geographic they are now is much more reasonable. Like the US did with England.

But obviously there are complications in play. Thanks for sharing those.

What a mess.

Gaza is 25 miles long and 6 miles wide. But it has over 2 million people crammed into that space. It's one of the most densely populated in the world.

Think of it like Manhattan but without the infrastructure to support it.

That's not what Palestinians are looking for. They want MUCH more.

 

[culdeus]

Where are the Saudis in this current affair? Still hosting golf tournaments or are they picking a side?

 

[timschochet]

The Jews believe the land is theirs because it was the Promised Land.
Is there a religious reason that the Palestinians believe it is theirs besides it being the Muslim holy land?
Do claims go back go back to the conquest of Canaan or the Roman exile of the Jews and subsequent Palestina?

Just wondering how far back the Palestinians go to claim the land is theirs.

Actually the gist of the claim goes to 1948 and not much farther back. Most of the Palestinians who now live in Gaza and the West Bank lived then in what is now Israel. Then they fled en masse when the war started. According to the Israelis they mostly left of their own accord. According to the Palestinians they were forced out. The truth is murky and probably falls somewhere in between the stories the two sides tell.

Thanks. That's what I initially thought. So there is no real religious aspect for the Palestinians?
Or are they the defacto guardians of the Muslim Holy Land?

I wouldn’t call them guardians but of course there is a religious aspect.

 

[Snotbubbles]

The rational response would be to eliminate the terror threat.

sadly, this is at least as unrealistic as what i suggested was rational. (compassion)

you can mitigate, which means this continues into an increasingly dangerous future.

You can't eliminate the terror threat by force.

You can't eliminate it with compassion either. One way keeps it at bay. One way invites it in.

The logical choice would be to obliterate Hamas by all means necessary and create as many buffers as you can.

Because the deep hatred of Israel will not go away.

When you use force, you just create more terrorists.

Israel's hands are not clean in this. Their only saving grace is that they're backed by the US so the atrocities they perform against the Palestinians, the international community just looks the other way.

 

[Jayrod]

I don’t know how to work with Hamas. They’re murderers who deserve to die. But there appears to be no way to get rid of them. So now what?

I'm pretty sure Israel is going to do just that. At least to the point that anyone who tries to use the name "Hamas" for their group or organization will be killed.

 

[timschochet]

Where are the Saudis in this current affair? Still hosting golf tournaments or are they picking a side?

Being cautious.

The population of Saudi Arabia, like most Muslim countries, is deeply sympathetic to the Palestinians. The 700 or so multibillionaire princes who run that county want stability and probably detest Hamas (because they detest Iran) but they can’t say anything too loudly.

 

[Jayrod]

When you use force, you just create more terrorists.

Israel's hands are not clean in this. Their only saving grace is that they're backed by the US so the atrocities they perform against the Palestinians, the international community just looks the other way.

False.

Their missteps have been called out often.

But they are nowhere near these atrocities. The fact that you and a few other posters keep beating this drum while women are raped and children are beheaded is very telling. True colors showing and all that.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thanks Folks for the insights.

Again, back to Lord have mercy. What a messed up world.