War in Israel (2 Viewers)

[tri-man 47]

Not that we thought the retaliation was going to be anything less, but Israeli Minister of Of Strategic Affairs is on CNN saying the retaliation will need to be so great that no terror organization in the middle east, or even the world, will be willing to pay that price again.

Made a similar analogy to one several people here have made. Basically said this is their 9/11, except instead of it being people thousands of miles away hiding in caves, in this case they know exactly who/where they are to retaliate. Also admonished de-escalation and said "imagine trying to talk people into de-escalation after 9/11".

It's all just so crazy, so sad.

But what's mind-boggling is that Hamas had to know this going in. Yet ...they did it anyway.

This simply isn't the mindset of the people in the middle east. Not singling you guys out, but comments from you both illustrate that point. Hamas has a genuine belief that "God" is on their side and they will prevail even through all the bloodshed. They aren't afraid to die, even a little bit. It's a tough belief to wrap one's head around but it's necessary in order to understand what is going on over there.

Yup, I fully understand that this is their belief. But the challenge, as you state, is to 'wrap one's head around' it all. It's a mix of and

 

[Sand]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

Who exactly are you talking about with people in the US who support killing of people in the name of religion?

Extremist supporters - supporters of Hamas and what they did. Groups like US Council of Muslim Organizations, Students for Justice in Palestine and The Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Well, we're certainly going to find out what atrocities are allowed under Islamic Law. It ain't a religion of peace - what's codified is pretty terrifying. That's all I'll say on religion - it may be allowed in here but it's pretty touchy, so a deep dive probably gets this killed. Lets just say I pray for those civilians, particularly females, who have been captured.

The world would be magically better if Gaza could be teleported somewhere near Tehran. Even Egypt, a heavily Islamic country, wants absolutely nothing to do with Gaza and it's inhabitants. Thus the solidly closed border in the south of Gaza. And this is the festering boil that has finally popped.

Gaza, with the massive amount of aid they've gotten, decided instead to tear down all the Jewish infrastructure left (greenhouses galore, etc.) and buy missiles. It could have been the Riviera of the middle east. Above posts are correct in the assessment of hatred over prosperity. Kids as shields are standard procedure and they will be used. Heartbreaking.

 

[The Commish]

Not that we thought the retaliation was going to be anything less, but Israeli Minister of Of Strategic Affairs is on CNN saying the retaliation will need to be so great that no terror organization in the middle east, or even the world, will be willing to pay that price again.

Made a similar analogy to one several people here have made. Basically said this is their 9/11, except instead of it being people thousands of miles away hiding in caves, in this case they know exactly who/where they are to retaliate. Also admonished de-escalation and said "imagine trying to talk people into de-escalation after 9/11".

It's all just so crazy, so sad.

But what's mind-boggling is that Hamas had to know this going in. Yet ...they did it anyway.

This simply isn't the mindset of the people in the middle east. Not singling you guys out, but comments from you both illustrate that point. Hamas has a genuine belief that "God" is on their side and they will prevail even through all the bloodshed. They aren't afraid to die, even a little bit. It's a tough belief to wrap one's head around but it's necessary in order to understand what is going on over there.

Yup, I fully understand that this is their belief. But the challenge, as you state, is to 'wrap one's head around' it all. It's a mix of and

It eventually becomes 100%

 

[KingPrawn]

Americans among those killed and taken hostage

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

I think a big element of the attacks is the internal struggle in the Islamic world. Saudi Arabia under the Crown Prince is slowly loosening things up inside of SA and negotiating with Israel. Iran is probably pushing these attacks in the hope they torpedo the peace between SA and Israel and making Islamic people in the Middle East choose between the Crown Prince's vision of the future for the Middle East and the Ayatollah's of Iran vision.

 

[Rirruto]

Here I am just scrolling through social media looking for thirst traps and NBA trade rumors and boom video clips of kids and young adults being kidnapped. Damn.

Is there any reason why certain people were targeted? Am I just seeing fake stuff? I get taking soldiers, Intel people, and government officials. I mean that as I see the strategy of it, not that it is a good thing. Maybe these 20 year old girls are Mossad? Maybe the families are IDF generals or something?

Either way I just can't comprehend how ****ed up this is. And it will definitely only get worse. I'm sure our own government and politicians will use this as a chance to come together rather than divide. Heavy sarcasm.

 

[KingPrawn]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

 

[Orange&Blue]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

what a bs statement

 

[Sand]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

The US should stay out if our citizens are returned. The US should send one dinghy to the shore with a big sign "Deposit Americans here" along with the warships. Deliver bombs until our people are in the boat. Then stay out of this mess.

I just hope we, as a country, don't end up paying 1B per hostage, which has seemed to be come the norm lately.

 

[AAABatteries]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

what a bs statement

You don‘t think there’s people in the US who are supportive of Hamas?

 

[Orange&Blue]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

The US should stay out if our citizens are returned. The US should send one dinghy to the shore with a big sign "Deposit Americans here" along with the warships. Deliver bombs until our people are in the boat. Then stay out of this mess.

I just hope we, as a country, don't end up paying 1B per hostage, which has seemed to be come the norm lately.

so what is the price you are willing to pay?

btw, that money hasn't been released to iran.

 

[AAABatteries]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

The US should stay out if our citizens are returned. The US should send one dinghy to the shore with a big sign "Deposit Americans here" along with the warships. Deliver bombs until our people are in the boat. Then stay out of this mess.

I just hope we, as a country, don't end up paying 1B per hostage, which has seemed to be come the norm lately.

Have they said how many Americans are being held?

 

[Orange&Blue]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

what a bs statement

You don‘t think there’s people in the US who are supportive of Hamas?

what does their religion have to do with it? atheists can also be supportive of hamas. stupidity isn't confined to religion.

 

[AAABatteries]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

what a bs statement

You don‘t think there’s people in the US who are supportive of Hamas?

what does their religion have to do with it? atheists can also be supportive of hamas. stupidity isn't confined to religion.

if you think the vast majority of Hamas supporters are atheist then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Sand]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

The US should stay out if our citizens are returned. The US should send one dinghy to the shore with a big sign "Deposit Americans here" along with the warships. Deliver bombs until our people are in the boat. Then stay out of this mess.

I just hope we, as a country, don't end up paying 1B per hostage, which has seemed to be come the norm lately.

so what is the price you are willing to pay?

btw, that money hasn't been released to iran.

Money is fungible. This enables all kinds of shenanigans to be paid for by Iran. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Iran is neck deep in this. And, as we all know in this country, deficit spending is a thing, so the whole "they don't have it yet" is a lark.

ETA: If this money truly hasn't been released then the thing to do is to lock it back up. Releasing the latch to this lockbox after knowing Iran planned, funded, and sanctioned this would be truly evil.

 

[Orange&Blue]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

what a bs statement

You don‘t think there’s people in the US who are supportive of Hamas?

what does their religion have to do with it? atheists can also be supportive of hamas. stupidity isn't confined to religion.

if you think the vast majority of Hamas supporters are atheist then I don’t know what to tell you.

you made a bs statement that this is another reason why religion in us should die.

you are assuming that every hamas supporter is so because of religion. some people just hate israel and support hamas because of that regardless of their religious belief. but instead you are making gross generalizations to fit your narrative that religion should die.

 

[Orange&Blue]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

The US should stay out if our citizens are returned. The US should send one dinghy to the shore with a big sign "Deposit Americans here" along with the warships. Deliver bombs until our people are in the boat. Then stay out of this mess.

I just hope we, as a country, don't end up paying 1B per hostage, which has seemed to be come the norm lately.

so what is the price you are willing to pay?

btw, that money hasn't been released to iran.

Money is fungible. This enables all kinds of shenanigans to be paid for by Iran. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Iran is neck deep in this. And, as we all know in this country, deficit spending is a thing.

the money hasn't gone to iran and it didn't come from US anyway but don't let that confuse the issue.

and yes, iran is involved.

 

[Orange&Blue]

whatever... this is why there is no political forum. can't even go two pages.

I'm out

 

[AAABatteries]

whatever... this is why there is no political forum. can't even go two pages.

I'm out

In my world, religion <> politics. I’m fine with any group of beliefs dying that are supportive of Hamas - it just so happens that most of these are religious beliefs. It’s totally naive to think otherwise.

 

[AAABatteries]

The video of the music festival with the paratroopers flying in is insane.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Anyone who specifically targets non-combatant civilians is evil and loses all moral standing. It may be unavoidable that civilians and non-combatants die, but the targeting of them is reprehensible and is responsible for most of the horrors of the modern era.

 

[KingPrawn]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

what a bs statement

You don‘t think there’s people in the US who are supportive of Hamas?

What dos that have to do with religion in the U.S.?

 

[Sand]

Evidently missiles are now hitting Tel Aviv. I didn't see whether those missiles came from Gaza, the West Bank, or Lebanon. That is going to lead to a strong desire by Israel to move borders back.

 

[KingPrawn]

whatever... this is why there is no political forum. can't even go two pages.

I'm out

In my world, religion <> politics. I’m fine with any group of beliefs dying that are supportive of Hamas - it just so happens that most of these are religious beliefs. It’s totally naive to think otherwise.

But you didn't say that. You lumped ALL religions in the U.S. together.

 

[Sand]

Anyone who specifically targets non-combatant civilians is evil and loses all moral standing. It may be unavoidable that civilians and non-combatants die, but the targeting of them is reprehensible and is responsible for most of the horrors of the modern era.

Many/most of the casualties (250+) and abductions came from a music festival of kids (I say kids - teens, 20s) down in the south of Israel.

Last message from missing Brit after Hamas gunmen 'kill 250' at festival

A MISSING Brit sent a chilling last message to his mum as Hamas launched a horrific attack on a music festival, reportedly gunning down 250 people. Militants launched rockets and crossed the border…

www.the-sun.com

 

[KingPrawn]

260 civilians killed at peace festival

Israel confirms that the bodies of 260 civilians were found at the site of the music festival near the Gaza border fence.The authorities announce that search and rescue operation is over.

 

[dickey moe]

260 civilians killed at peace festival

Israel confirms that the bodies of 260 civilians were found at the site of the music festival near the Gaza border fence.The authorities announce that search and rescue operation is over.

My God.

 

[Orange&Blue]

non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.

Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel

Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.

www.nydailynews.com

using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Here I am just scrolling through social media looking for thirst traps and NBA trade rumors and boom video clips of kids and young adults being kidnapped. Damn.

Is there any reason why certain people were targeted? Am I just seeing fake stuff? I get taking soldiers, Intel people, and government officials. I mean that as I see the strategy of it, not that it is a good thing. Maybe these 20 year old girls are Mossad? Maybe the families are IDF generals or something?

Either way I just can't comprehend how ****ed up this is. And it will definitely only get worse. I'm sure our own government and politicians will use this as a chance to come together rather than divide. Heavy sarcasm.

The IDF had been targeting civilians and the press for decades.

 

[Sand]

non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.

Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel

Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.

www.nydailynews.com

using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.

No comment on socialists as that's way too close to the political line.

But I will say, as individuals, these organizers are evil and should be shunned in polite society. I don't see how you plan a rally to cheer killing 250 kids.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.

Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel

Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.

www.nydailynews.com

using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.

No comment on socialists as that's way too close to the political line.

But I will say, as individuals, these organizers are evil and should be shunned in polite society. I don't see how you plan a rally to cheer killing 250 kids.

I work with people exactly like this. I've typed up like six or seven posts along these lines and had to delete all of them for an assortment of reasons, but people should start listening seriously to people who use terms like "decolonization." This is not a fringe ideology in my world.

 

[KingPrawn]

Deputy commander of Hamas captured by Israel special forces

Shayetet 13, the Elite-Commando Unit of the Israeli Navy has reportedly conducted an Operation which resulted in the Capture of the Deputy Commander of the Southern Division of the Hamas Naval Force in the Gaza Strip, Muhammad Abu Ghali.
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1711107917607239853/photo/1

 

[Sand]

non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.

Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel

Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.

www.nydailynews.com

using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.

No comment on socialists as that's way too close to the political line.

But I will say, as individuals, these organizers are evil and should be shunned in polite society. I don't see how you plan a rally to cheer killing 250 kids.

I work with people exactly like this. I've typed up like six or seven posts along these lines and had to delete all of them for an assortment of reasons, but people should start listening seriously to people who use terms like "decolonization." This is not a fringe ideology in my world.

Eh - Jews were on that land ~2000 years before Islam existed. As much as some want to label them as colonizers, they're not.

 

[facook]

Here I am just scrolling through social media looking for thirst traps and NBA trade rumors and boom video clips of kids and young adults being kidnapped. Damn.

Is there any reason why certain people were targeted? Am I just seeing fake stuff? I get taking soldiers, Intel people, and government officials. I mean that as I see the strategy of it, not that it is a good thing. Maybe these 20 year old girls are Mossad? Maybe the families are IDF generals or something?

Either way I just can't comprehend how ****ed up this is. And it will definitely only get worse. I'm sure our own government and politicians will use this as a chance to come together rather than divide. Heavy sarcasm.

The civilian hostages will be spread throughout Gaza in the hopes that Israel is less "thorough" in their retaliation.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.

Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel

Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.

www.nydailynews.com

using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.

No comment on socialists as that's way too close to the political line.

But I will say, as individuals, these organizers are evil and should be shunned in polite society. I don't see how you plan a rally to cheer killing 250 kids.

I work with people exactly like this. I've typed up like six or seven posts along these lines and had to delete all of them for an assortment of reasons, but people should start listening seriously to people who use terms like "decolonization." This is not a fringe ideology in my world.

Eh - Jews were on that land ~2000 years before Islam existed. As much as some want to label them as colonizers, they're not.

I get it. Please think of what I'm saying here as a PSA. Over the past 10 years or so (especially the last 5-6), an assortment of ideas about race and gender have moved out of very specific corners of academia and are now ensconced in the mainstream. If anybody is curious, this is the next thing. You would not believe how fashionable decolonization/indigenization is right now in those corners. Obviously I won't do it here, but I could link to papers written by one of my own faculty members who constantly refers to herself as a "settler." This is a person whose great-grandparents were all born in the US. Now, for her this is just cosplaying, but many of these people are serious.

I'm kind of curious to see if this thing with Hamas will end up preemptively discrediting that ideology since this happened before it really had a chance to escape from the lab and become endemic.

 

[Joe Bryant]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

Who exactly are you talking about with people in the US who support killing of people in the name of religion?

Extremist supporters - supporters of Hamas and what they did. Groups like US Council of Muslim Organizations, Students for Justice in Palestine and The Council on American-Islamic Relations.

I guess. I realize people are using everything they can to stack reasons why the US would be better without religion, but that one seems to be pretty fringe in the US.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And yes, that's probably enough from me on the religion in the US angle. That's not really relevant to this thread.

 

[KingPrawn]

Holy crap

Israel bombs an ammo depot

 

[KingPrawn]

Iran provided money, equipment and weapons

 

[belljr]

It’s a very small part of it but this is on the list of reasons why the death of religion in the US is a good thing. There’s definitely people here (the US, not FBGs) who support the killing of people in the name of religion and a made up deity.

Who exactly are you talking about with people in the US who support killing of people in the name of religion?

Extremist supporters - supporters of Hamas and what they did. Groups like US Council of Muslim Organizations, Students for Justice in Palestine and The Council on American-Islamic Relations.

I guess. I realize people are using everything they can to stack reasons why the US would be better without religion, but that one seems to be pretty fringe in the US.

You have pro religion to be against gay marriage, you have the fringe that would celebrate soldiers deaths in the name of religion.....my point is not to discuss religion or disagree with religious beliefs but to point out the US is not immune to "X" in the name of religion

 

[AAABatteries]

Iran provided money, equipment and weapons

Wouldn’t be surprising at all but not sure I can believe anything this guy says. Brining Iran (further) in to this would be horrible.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Iran provided money, equipment and weapons

Wouldn’t be surprising at all but not sure I can believe anything this guy says. Brining Iran (further) in to this would be horrible.

I mean yeah. To outwardly declare this makes me think they’re just trying to provoke Israel into attacking Iran so as to bring them in.

 

[KingPrawn]

Iran provided money, equipment and weapons

Wouldn’t be surprising at all but not sure I can believe anything this guy says. Brining Iran (further) in to this would be horrible.

WSJ reporting the same thing

Iran Helped Plot Attack on Israel Over Several Weeks

 

[Courtjester]

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

 

[Terminalxylem]

non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.

Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel

Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.

www.nydailynews.com

using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.

No comment on socialists as that's way too close to the political line.

But I will say, as individuals, these organizers are evil and should be shunned in polite society. I don't see how you plan a rally to cheer killing 250 kids.

I work with people exactly like this. I've typed up like six or seven posts along these lines and had to delete all of them for an assortment of reasons, but people should start listening seriously to people who use terms like "decolonization." This is not a fringe ideology in my world.

Do you think “your world“ is representative of US society as a whole?

I’m certainly no expert, but concepts like decolonization seem pretty out there to me. And it doesn’t surprise me when nutty concepts are embraced on college campuses, but that’ s a far cry from mainstream thought.

 

[Orange&Blue]

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

i don't disagree, but this is going to be very challenging for us to navigate. we or israel push too hard and the progress that has been made with the Arab nations in their relationships with israel may disappear.

not to mention, 1/3 of our government is too busy acting like drunk monkeys throwing **** at each other.

 

[Jayrod]

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

i don't disagree, but this is going to be very challenging for us to navigate. we or israel push too hard and the progress that has been made with the Arab nations in their relationships with israel may disappear.

not to mention, 1/3 of our government is too busy acting like drunk monkeys throwing **** at each other.

I think this is as tricky a situation diplomatically as the Cuban Missle crisis.

 

[Orange&Blue]

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

i don't disagree, but this is going to be very challenging for us to navigate. we or israel push too hard and the progress that has been made with the Arab nations in their relationships with israel may disappear.

not to mention, 1/3 of our government is too busy acting like drunk monkeys throwing **** at each other.

I think this is as tricky a situation diplomatically as the Cuban Missle crisis.

interesting comparison. why do you think that?

 

[Jayrod]

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

i don't disagree, but this is going to be very challenging for us to navigate. we or israel push too hard and the progress that has been made with the Arab nations in their relationships with israel may disappear.

not to mention, 1/3 of our government is too busy acting like drunk monkeys throwing **** at each other.

I think this is as tricky a situation diplomatically as the Cuban Missle crisis.

interesting comparison. why do you think that?

Because a mistake could lead to WW3.

 

[rockaction]

Do you think “your world“ is representative of US society as a whole?

I’m certainly no expert, but concepts like decolonization seem pretty out there to me. And it doesn’t surprise me when nutty concepts are embraced on college campuses, but that’ s a far cry from mainstream thought.

I've often said that it takes about twenty to twenty-five years for academic discussions considered "out there" to pop up in polite discussion everywhere, and the polite side of the debate takes the side of the academic winners of that previous debate that happened twenty-five years prior.

Have you been to a sporting event with a land acknowledgement? It's the beginning of that sort of discourse into polite society with policy ramifications. That the Montreal Canadiens acknowledge the indigenous people previously on the land that the Forum is on is just one example (I've heard of this through a board member here) among others. There is no way you have landowners giving land acknowledgements to indigenous tribes unless the landowners feel impelled to do so, and what makes them impelled? Guilt stemming from decolonization theory and acquiescence to that line of thought.

TL;DR Wait for it. You'll be having the discussion in ten-fifteen years.