War in Israel (1 Viewer)

[facook]

non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.

Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel

Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.

www.nydailynews.com

using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.

No comment on socialists as that's way too close to the political line.

But I will say, as individuals, these organizers are evil and should be shunned in polite society. I don't see how you plan a rally to cheer killing 250 kids.

I work with people exactly like this. I've typed up like six or seven posts along these lines and had to delete all of them for an assortment of reasons, but people should start listening seriously to people who use terms like "decolonization." This is not a fringe ideology in my world.

Do you think “your world“ is representative of US society as a whole?

I’m certainly no expert, but concepts like decolonization seem pretty out there to me. And it doesn’t surprise me when nutty concepts are embraced on college campuses, but that’ s a far cry from mainstream thought.

Thank God. May we in the middle 90% always push back against the loony extremes.

 

[facook]

So sad to read about the attacks this morning. I've seen it described as Israel's "Pearl Harbor," which seems apt. How could Israel not pick up on this? The massive attack against Israel is just a ginormous world event, I believe ...and I fear. After decades of tension, I always held out some hope that a measure of peace would prevail ...an uneasy truce. But this will set back Israeli-Palestinian relations for yet another generation. The misery of the Gaza Strip was bad already, so I can't imagine what life will be like over the days, weeks, and years to come. More immediately, the death toll is already climbing on both sides.

I don't understand how Hamas can think they can in any way "win" a war against Israel. They have to know that Israel's response will not be a measured response.

I see no way IDF/IAF don't go ape-poop in the next few days/weeks. And I don't think it is political to say, selfishly, this is a lose-lose for America.

Either we fully back Israel, which creates openings for other chaos in the region (SA/Iran backing Hamas) - and maybe beyond (China striking while chaos reigns) - or we DON'T back Israel which leaves them open to other enemy states joining in and which will ultimately go very, very badly for us imo.

Hopefully I'm wrong and this turns out like the Russia coup a few weeks ago. I really really hope so.

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

i don't disagree, but this is going to be very challenging for us to navigate. we or israel push too hard and the progress that has been made with the Arab nations in their relationships with israel may disappear.

not to mention, 1/3 of our government is too busy acting like drunk monkeys throwing **** at each other.

I think this is as tricky a situation diplomatically as the Cuban Missle crisis.

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

i don't disagree, but this is going to be very challenging for us to navigate. we or israel push too hard and the progress that has been made with the Arab nations in their relationships with israel may disappear.

not to mention, 1/3 of our government is too busy acting like drunk monkeys throwing **** at each other.

I think this is as tricky a situation diplomatically as the Cuban Missle crisis.

interesting comparison. why do you think that?

Because a mistake could lead to WW3.

As usual, Jaryod said it better and more succinctly than I.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

We are supporting Ukraine with money and weapons.

Don't we already do this with Israel?

 

[Sand]

Do you think “your world“ is representative of US society as a whole?

I’m certainly no expert, but concepts like decolonization seem pretty out there to me. And it doesn’t surprise me when nutty concepts are embraced on college campuses, but that’ s a far cry from mainstream thought.

I've often said that it takes about twenty to twenty-five years for academic discussions considered "out there" to pop up in polite discussion everywhere, and the polite side of the debate takes the side of the academic winners of that previous debate that happened twenty-five years prior.

Have you been to a sporting event with a land acknowledgement? It's the beginning of that sort of discourse into polite society with policy ramifications. That the Montreal Canadiens acknowledge the indigenous people previously on the land that the Forum is on is just one example (I've heard of this through a board member here) among others. There is no way you have landowners giving land acknowledgements to indigenous tribes unless the landowners feel impelled to do so, and what makes them impelled? Guilt stemming from decolonization theory and acquiescence to that line of thought.

TL;DR Wait for it. You'll be having the discussion in ten-fifteen years.

Bit of an aside, but this is a map of Europe over the last 2500 years. Every other place in the world will be similar. It's like these folks believed the last historical inhabitants were there for 20,000 years. (BTW, I'm still waiting for Turkey to acknowledge that their land rightfully belongs to the Achaemenid Empire!).

The History of Europe: Every Year

This video shows the borders and populations of each country in Europe, for every year since 400 BC.Vassal states and colonies are not included in the count ...

www.youtube.com

 

[Sand]

Don't we already do this with Israel?

About 4 billion a year.

 

[Corporation]

Where do you guys go for news on this that is presented factually and as unbiased as possible?

 

[rockaction]

I find it odd that states led by plutocrats and terrorists have basically declared war on democracy and sovereignty in the past two years. It's really staggering, and I wonder if there isn't a coordinated effort to do so.

There are some really big nation-states with serious weaponry involved, and I can't shake the feeling that a new World Cold War with smaller satellite state wars isn't going on. That it might be going on without our acknowledgement of the seriousness and scope of it all is a serious problem.

First, we have to recognize the problem exists.

I'm going to bow out and leave others to comment or to leave links to serious policy blogs or journals like the Russia thread became. If anybody is willing, I'd be interested in reading.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Do you think “your world“ is representative of US society as a whole?

I’m certainly no expert, but concepts like decolonization seem pretty out there to me. And it doesn’t surprise me when nutty concepts are embraced on college campuses, but that’ s a far cry from mainstream thought.

I've often said that it takes about twenty to twenty-five years for academic discussions considered "out there" to pop up in polite discussion everywhere, and the polite side of the debate takes the side of the academic winners of that previous debate that happened twenty-five years prior.

Have you been to a sporting event with a land acknowledgement? It's the beginning of that sort of discourse into polite society with policy ramifications. That the Montreal Canadiens acknowledge the indigenous people previously on the land that the Forum is on is just one example (I've heard of this through a board member here) among others. There is no way you have landowners giving land acknowledgements to indigenous tribes unless the landowners feel impelled to do so, and what makes them impelled? Guilt stemming from decolonization theory and acquiescence to that line of thought.

TL;DR Wait for it. You'll be having the discussion in ten-fifteen years.

Meh.

For every step we’ve made “forward” in the academic march of progress, there are many other fringe concepts which haven't gained acceptance in the country as a whole.

There are plenty of Marxists in academia, for example. And they’ve been there more than a couple decades.

I guess you could argue we're a lot further left than twenty years ago, but not everything is a slippery slope, imo.

 

[KGB]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

I don't follow religion/ politics, but we about to **** some **** up

 

[FreeBaGeL]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

I don't follow religion/ politics, but we about to **** some **** up

I think it's just for visual support. I don't think the US is planning to launch any attacks or anything.

 

[FishTacoTuesday]

From a historical perspective, the timing of this Hamas operation couldn’t have come at a worse time. Israel even more so than the United States, has internal strife. Netanyahu has made strong-armed moves to consolidate his radical coalition. So Israelis are worried.

This plays right into Netanyahu’s hands, and allows him to respond with an iron fist. For Hamas, it certainly doesn't their people or cause any good. This stinks like Iran obviously.

 

[Tecumseh]

I was wondering what happened to the Iron Dome system- seems there were just too many rockets: https://www.tbsnews.net/worldbiz/mi...d-renowned-missile-defence-system-overwhelmed

 

[KingPrawn]

U.S. moving ships and aircraft carriers closer to Israel in a show of support

I don't follow religion/ politics, but we about to **** some **** up

I think it's just for visual support. I don't think the US is planning to launch any attacks or anything.

From the commentary I read it seems to be a warning to other parties (Hezbolah, etc.) to stay out of the fight

 

[Todem]

I was wondering what happened to the Iron Dome system- seems there were just too many rockets: https://www.tbsnews.net/worldbiz/mi...d-renowned-missile-defence-system-overwhelmed

My family in Israel (and my mom who has Israeli tv in her house here in South Florida) told me it was able to deflect 85-90%.

 

[beer 30]

The video of the music festival with the paratroopers flying in is insane.

This compilation video from Hamas showing the initial coordinated attacks is pretty wild. If you think that Iran wasn't involved in this, you're wrong. Will be interesting to see how the ME reacts to all of this.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

 

[The Commish]

Where do you guys go for news on this that is presented factually and as unbiased as possible?

Outside the US media outlets. They've proven to be completely useless on this and most other things. Go to Reuters and/or BBC.

 

[Fat Nick]

Where do you guys go for news on this that is presented factually and as unbiased as possible?

I'm hesitant to actually reply as I'm sure there are many who disagree - but...I once applied for a government job in intelligence and they advised me to avoid US domestic news almost entirely. Their recommendation at the time were some of the European news outlets (BBC) as well as specifically the AP domestically. Major news outlets in the US have too much spin and bias. They also said it was important to read local news for key events - i.e. something like Al Jazeera for this current war - simply because understanding both sides is crucial. Not saying those local pieces aren't biased, but it's important to have multiple perspectives and make your own decisions.

 

[The Commish]

Where do you guys go for news on this that is presented factually and as unbiased as possible?

I'm hesitant to actually reply as I'm sure there are many who disagree - but...I once applied for a government job in intelligence and they advised me to avoid US domestic news almost entirely. Their recommendation at the time were some of the European news outlets (BBC) as well as specifically the AP domestically. Major news outlets in the US have too much spin and bias. They also said it was important to read local news for key events - i.e. something like Al Jazeera for this current war - simply because understanding both sides is crucial. Not saying those local pieces aren't biased, but it's important to have multiple perspectives and make your own decisions.

you shouldn't be hesitant at all. you're spot on.

 

[Fat Nick]

I was wondering what happened to the Iron Dome system- seems there were just too many rockets: https://www.tbsnews.net/worldbiz/mi...d-renowned-missile-defence-system-overwhelmed

My family in Israel (and my mom who has Israeli tv in her house here in South Florida) told me it was able to deflect 85-90%.

I read a long article on the Iron Dome over the weekend - it said just that - 85% - 90%, and that was apparently best-in-class for a defense system. It did highlight a few weaknesses.

• It could be overwhelmed by too many targets, which I think is part of what happened this weekend.
• It also is very expensive to operate - costing $100,000 per counter-missile launched (3-5x the cost of the missiles being fired offensively).
• Apparently in some past conflicts, they actually began running low on "ammo," and it impacted negotiations. Israel apparently did increase stockpiles because of that, but it's not a infinite supply of defensive rockets.
• The system is effective against lower-speed, lower technology rockets that are typically used. It is apparently NOT effective against faster rockets and/or cruise missile type ordinance.

They apparently looked into focused laser technology as a remedy for the ammo issue as those systems can fire indefinitely and only cost a few thousand dollars per firing, but it wasn't reliable or effective enough.

 

[Gatorman]

I feel for the civilians in this matter as a Jew and a supporter of Israel. Hamas is basically goading Israel to respond and they will, most likely overwhelmingly. Geopolitically, I am sure Iran is seeing the political headway Israel is making in the Arab world with treaties with the Saudi's et al, and have decided by making Muslims draw a line between Iran and the Saudis (using Hamas and their civilian "shields" as pawns) they hope to increase their political power in the region at a time when it seems to be waning.

This attack helps Netenyahu (politically), Iran, Russia (bc it divides the US response in both those conflicts), and Hamas. It hurts Israeli's and Palestinans who are drawn into this once again.

And before anyone starts the "apartheid" argument, I will give you this one simple response: If the Palestenians dropped all their weapons tomorrow there would be peace. If the Israeli's dropped all their weapons tomorrow, they would be slaughtered. "from the river to the sea" is their view that thre should be no Jews in Israel "from the river to the sea"

Am Yisrael Chai!

 

[dickey moe]

This was an intelligence failure of epic proportions.

 

[Snotbubbles]

The bottom line is religion/ideology/politics aside, Americans are dead and held hostage. We have to respond. We can't support Ukraine and then sit back and say oh, let this one slide.

I am not a warmonger (look at the Ukraine thread and I never believed Russia would invade), but we have to step in here to get Americans back. We have to show some strength here on many fronts.

We are supporting Ukraine with money and weapons.

Don't we already do this with Israel?

We've been giving (I guess borrowing money to give is what we're doing) Israel billions in annual aide for forever.

 

[beer 30]

I think it's just for visual support. I don't think the US is planning to launch any attacks or anything.

Having recently exited an extended war in the region I'd guess the US would be very hesitant to engage in any of this other than what you stated. It would open a Pandora's Box of issues for the US that we don't want or need right now.

 

[Hawks64]

Where do you guys go for news on this that is presented factually and as unbiased as possible?

NPR, BBC, WSJ, AP, Reuters

 

[unckeyherb]

From a historical perspective, the timing of this Hamas operation couldn’t have come at a worse time. Israel even more so than the United States, has internal strife. Netanyahu has made strong-armed moves to consolidate his radical coalition. So Israelis are worried.

This plays right into Netanyahu’s hands, and allows him to respond with an iron fist. For Hamas, it certainly doesn't their people or cause any good. This stinks like Iran obviously.

I certainly am no expert but isn’t Bibi’s entire argument that he is the only one that can keep you (Israeli citizenry) safe? This seems to fly in the face of that.

 

[SWC]

i was out fishing on saturday left at about 4 am and got back about 10 pm what a crazy thing to return to but serious question when i see the videos i see what looks like fireworks going up but then the red flare just burns out does that mean the rocket was shot down or what am i seeing someone please explain take that to the bank bromigos

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I certainly am no expert but isn’t Bibi’s entire argument that he is the only one that can keep you (Israeli citizenry) safe? This seems to fly in the face of that.

It might take a few weeks, but I think this does rebound on him soonish. Especially given the chaos he introduced into the army and intelligence services over the last few months.

 

[Navin Johnson]

The video of the music festival with the paratroopers flying in is insane.

This compilation video from Hamas showing the initial coordinated attacks is pretty wild. If you think that Iran wasn't involved in this, you're wrong. Will be interesting to see how the ME reacts to all of this.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

I kind of find it hard to believe that the IDF, with its informants in Gaza and listening devices at the border, didn't know this was coming

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

The video of the music festival with the paratroopers flying in is insane.

This compilation video from Hamas showing the initial coordinated attacks is pretty wild. If you think that Iran wasn't involved in this, you're wrong. Will be interesting to see how the ME reacts to all of this.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

I kind of find it hard to believe that the IDF, with its informants in Gaza and listening devices at the border, didn't know this was coming

Whatever else comes of this, there will be a lot of soul-searching among the Israeli security establishment. Just a massive failure

 

[Navin Johnson]

The video of the music festival with the paratroopers flying in is insane.

This compilation video from Hamas showing the initial coordinated attacks is pretty wild. If you think that Iran wasn't involved in this, you're wrong. Will be interesting to see how the ME reacts to all of this.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

I kind of find it hard to believe that the IDF, with its informants in Gaza and listening devices at the border, didn't know this was coming

Whatever else comes of this, there will be a lot of soul-searching among the Israeli security establishment. Just a massive failure

Just tracks with everyone calling it their Pearl Harbor

 

[squistion]

Not really sure it's possible to have this discussion without getting political

Yes, let's talk about a war but leave politics out of it.

 

[whoknew]

THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF WHAT HAMAS DID (feel like that's necessary in this thread) -

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

 

[SWC]

Not really sure it's possible to have this discussion without getting political

Yes, let's talk about a war but leave politics out of it.

comments like this are exactly why the forum was closed take that to the bank brohan

 

[timschochet]

The video of the music festival with the paratroopers flying in is insane.

This compilation video from Hamas showing the initial coordinated attacks is pretty wild. If you think that Iran wasn't involved in this, you're wrong. Will be interesting to see how the ME reacts to all of this.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

I kind of find it hard to believe that the IDF, with its informants in Gaza and listening devices at the border, didn't know this was coming

Whatever else comes of this, there will be a lot of soul-searching among the Israeli security establishment. Just a massive failure

Just tracks with everyone calling it their Pearl Harbor

It’s closer to 9/11 because the solutions are maddeningly unclear.
Pearl Harbor had a clear solution: conquer the Japanese, invade their home islands, make them surrender. It was a difficult task but the goal was always linear. But when your attackers are terrorist there is no linear goal. Israel can certainly invade Gaza (and it looks like they will) but that may cause more problems than it solves.

 

[Navin Johnson]

The video of the music festival with the paratroopers flying in is insane.

This compilation video from Hamas showing the initial coordinated attacks is pretty wild. If you think that Iran wasn't involved in this, you're wrong. Will be interesting to see how the ME reacts to all of this.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

I kind of find it hard to believe that the IDF, with its informants in Gaza and listening devices at the border, didn't know this was coming

Whatever else comes of this, there will be a lot of soul-searching among the Israeli security establishment. Just a massive failure

Just tracks with everyone calling it their Pearl Harbor

It’s closer to 9/11 because the solutions are maddeningly unclear.
Pearl Harbor had a clear solution: conquer the Japanese, invade their home islands, make them surrender. It was a difficult task but the goal was always linear. But when your attackers are terrorist there is no linear goal. Israel can certainly invade Gaza (and it looks like they will) but that may cause more problems than it solves.

I used PH because it is more obvious that there was prior knowledge of the attack and we let it happen.

 

[Major]

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

and they've been doing it for decades....most innocent civilians are stuck there like rats in a cage with no hope for economic prosperity and limited access to the outside world. Perfect grounds for breeding terrorists.

 

[tonysmiles]

THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF WHAT HAMAS DID (feel like that's necessary in this thread) -

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

In war and I was in a gulf conflict a humanitarian crisis is a construed situation that civilians have been put into. Gaza is an anomaly you can only enter and exit through checkpoints and specific times of the day and all life sustaining items (fuel, electricity, water, and food) are controlled by Israel. What do you do in war you cut off those lifelines to the civilians to encourage dissent amongst them and they will turn on Hamas also. Hamas knew the implications and they decided to carry out the plan. Now receipts must be cashed in. Theoretically if Israel flattens Gaza and removes Hamas and rounds up the Palestinians and ships them to Iran and recolonizes the Gaza strip with Israelis who rebuild. The area will be one step closer to peace.

 

[tonysmiles]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never an devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

 

[timschochet]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never a devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

Honestly? When oil becomes valueless.

 

[Sand]

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

and they've been doing it for decades....most innocent civilians are stuck there like rats in a cage with no hope for economic prosperity and limited access to the outside world. Perfect grounds for breeding terrorists.

It's a cage with two gates. One lets out into the mortal enemy. One lets out into a country with similar population, similar religion, similar culture. Both gates have been held shut. The first is obvious because this happens.

The second? The Muslim world is largely responsible for this. They could have opened the second gate and assimilated this population into Muslim friendly areas. They chose not to.

So now we're at FAFO.

 

[Juxtatarot]

What do you do in war you cut off those lifelines to the civilians to encourage dissent amongst them and they will turn on Hamas also.

Won’t the majority blame Israel more than Hamas?

 

[Gatorman]

THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF WHAT HAMAS DID (feel like that's necessary in this thread) -

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

It's easy to say a lot of things here, but I think this makes the most sense. I'm no fan of Ron Desantis, but i live in Florida. Him doing his nonsense effects me in some ways and doesn't in others, but, other than voting or moving, I am powerless to stop whatever he or the legislature decides. Now Imagine if he went to war with Georgia and I can't leave Florida, and there is no mechanism to remove him (or in this example the Repbulican party) from power.

FWIW, the bibi thing and a good amout of Israelis feel for the Palestinians and would love some sort of peace with them. The hardliners do not, some because they don't trust them, others bc they see the threat as a way to remain in power. The Ultra-religious want the land grab, and I'm sure if they had the wherewithal, would kick anyone not "Hasidic" enough to them out of Israel entirely (Jews or non jews). Most Liberal Jews (In the US and the 45% who didn't vote for Bibi) want peace and security.

This Violence only begets more violence, and Hamas understands that the only way to radicalize people is to allow the enemy to radicalize them

 

[Gatorman]

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

and they've been doing it for decades....most innocent civilians are stuck there like rats in a cage with no hope for economic prosperity and limited access to the outside world. Perfect grounds for breeding terrorists.

True, but a large amount of the humanitarian aid never gets to "the people" The people in power keep it for themselves or use the money to build tunnels and items for war/combat.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never an devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

Well, what do you have in mind? There are low-key things that we and Israel can do to make life difficult for Iran. For example, Iranian nuclear scientists seem to fall victim to tragic road-range incidents much more more than your average person does. Iranian nuclear facilities have suffered some really odd IT failures over the years. We're doing stuff like that now, and I assume similar activities will continue or pick up.

Israel could hit some Iranian targets if it wants. Maybe that will cause Iran to escalate, or maybe Iran will just accept a bloody nose. Iran tends to bide their time and respond later using non-state actors, but they could use this opportunity to declare war.

You want regime change in Iran? We did that in Iraq, and it didn't work. As soon as you set these people free, they just turn to murdering their neighbors, not organizing bake sales for their local PTA. Democracy-promotion was how we got the people of Gaza voting for freaking Hamas in the first place.

Iran deserves all sorts of bad things to befall it, but the issue is whether the cost of imposing justice is too high. I think it's too high. (Of course, that's separate from the issue of maybe we should, I don't know, stop actively helping Iran out. That seems like a good first step.)

 

[beer 30]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never an devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

Qasem Soleimani would like a word

Iran deserves all sorts of bad things to befall it, but the issue is whether the cost of imposing justice is too high. I think it's too high. (Of course, that's separate from the issue of maybe we should, I don't know, stop actively helping Iran out. That seems like a good first step.)

Agree with your points, we've seen what attempted regime change looks like and it didn't end well. I also think the American public is war weary after 20 years of two major wars that yielded mostly nothing other than more perpetual violence. Could we take on Iran? Of course. Should we? I don't think that's in the cards unless they launch a nuke or two at Israel. I think Iran is happy to sit back and orchestrate their proxies from afar rather than get directly involved with Israel. I think everyone in the region knows that 1.) Israel won't pull punches and 2.) at some point the US & some subset of allies get involved. None of these are good options for long term plans for Iran.

 

[Jayrod]

The Gaza strip has been intentionally built up to this point by Iran backed groups. Seems odd that the region crying "genocide" and "apartheid" is one of the fastest growing and most densely populated regions in the world. Don't most people try to flee such places? Look at Yemen and Syria for places where life is truly difficult and there is an actual mass exodus of citizens. Yet life is good enough in Gaza that people are reproducing and not moving and have been for decades now. They know what is around them, they elected Hamas and they have had decades to choose another home, yet almost none have.

The entire goal is to create chaos in Israel, to push into Israel, to make Israel look bad on the world stage and to ultimately take over Israel and expel the Jews. That, is was and always has been the goal of Palestine.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF WHAT HAMAS DID (feel like that's necessary in this thread) -

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

It's easy to say a lot of things here, but I think this makes the most sense. I'm no fan of Ron Desantis, but i live in Florida. Him doing his nonsense effects me in some ways and doesn't in others, but, other than voting or moving, I am powerless to stop whatever he or the legislature decides. Now Imagine if he went to war with Georgia and I can't leave Florida, and there is no mechanism to remove him (or in this example the Repbulican party) from power.

To extend your analogy, imagine that your governor is not DeSantis but Charlie Crist, who got elected in 2006, canceled all elections going forward, and remained in power.And now people are saying, "Well, you're responsible for Crist's actions because you elected him" even though a large chunk of your electorate wasn't even eligible to vote the last time he faced voters.

[Note that this is not a criticism of Israel or even a recommendation of what they should and shouldn't do. I honestly have no idea what they should do. I'm just pushing back on the notion, which I've seen in various media outlets, of collective responsibility among the residents of Gaza for the actions of Hamas.]

 

[tonysmiles]

THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF WHAT HAMAS DID (feel like that's necessary in this thread) -

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

It's easy to say a lot of things here, but I think this makes the most sense. I'm no fan of Ron Desantis, but i live in Florida. Him doing his nonsense effects me in some ways and doesn't in others, but, other than voting or moving, I am powerless to stop whatever he or the legislature decides. Now Imagine if he went to war with Georgia and I can't leave Florida, and there is no mechanism to remove him (or in this example the Repbulican party) from power.

FWIW, the bibi thing and a good amout of Israelis feel for the Palestinians and would love some sort of peace with them. The hardliners do not, some because they don't trust them, others bc they see the threat as a way to remain in power. The Ultra-religious want the land grab, and I'm sure if they had the wherewithal, would kick anyone not "Hasidic" enough to them out of Israel entirely (Jews or non jews). Most Liberal Jews (In the US and the 45% who didn't vote for Bibi) want peace and security.

This Violence only begets more violence, and Hamas understands that the only way to radicalize people is to allow the enemy to radicalize them

DeSantis did reform Divorce and end permanent alimony and introduce a mathematical equation when calculating the alimony does not severely penalize the higher earner.

 

[tonysmiles]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never an devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

Well, what do you have in mind? There are low-key things that we and Israel can do to make life difficult for Iran. For example, Iranian nuclear scientists seem to fall victim to tragic road-range incidents much more more than your average person does. Iranian nuclear facilities have suffered some really odd IT failures over the years. We're doing stuff like that now, and I assume similar activities will continue or pick up.

Israel could hit some Iranian targets if it wants. Maybe that will cause Iran to escalate, or maybe Iran will just accept a bloody nose. Iran tends to bide their time and respond later using non-state actors, but they could use this opportunity to declare war.

You want regime change in Iran? We did that in Iraq, and it didn't work. As soon as you set these people free, they just turn to murdering their neighbors, not organizing bake sales for their local PTA. Democracy-promotion was how we got the people of Gaza voting for freaking Hamas in the first place.

Iran deserves all sorts of bad things to befall it, but the issue is whether the cost of imposing justice is too high. I think it's too high. (Of course, that's separate from the issue of maybe we should, I don't know, stop actively helping Iran out. That seems like a good first step.)

Well said and it is a tough apple to core. Like you said they bide there time.

 

[Gatorman]

THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF WHAT HAMAS DID (feel like that's necessary in this thread) -

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

It's easy to say a lot of things here, but I think this makes the most sense. I'm no fan of Ron Desantis, but i live in Florida. Him doing his nonsense effects me in some ways and doesn't in others, but, other than voting or moving, I am powerless to stop whatever he or the legislature decides. Now Imagine if he went to war with Georgia and I can't leave Florida, and there is no mechanism to remove him (or in this example the Repbulican party) from power.

FWIW, the bibi thing and a good amout of Israelis feel for the Palestinians and would love some sort of peace with them. The hardliners do not, some because they don't trust them, others bc they see the threat as a way to remain in power. The Ultra-religious want the land grab, and I'm sure if they had the wherewithal, would kick anyone not "Hasidic" enough to them out of Israel entirely (Jews or non jews). Most Liberal Jews (In the US and the 45% who didn't vote for Bibi) want peace and security.

This Violence only begets more violence, and Hamas understands that the only way to radicalize people is to allow the enemy to radicalize them

DeSantis did reform Divorce and end permanent alimony and introduce a mathematical equation when calculating the alimony does not severely penalize the higher earner.

Don;t want to turn this into the politics thread. I was simply using this as an example.