Wayne Gretzky vs. Mario Lemieux (1 Viewer)

[Ghost Rider]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

This needs to be a separate poll.

It would still go in Wayne's favor because of the (uninformed/ignorant/media loving) masses. Not alot of true hockey fans in here. I'd be willing to bet half that have voted have never even seen these guys play. Not blaming them, just saying Wayne is a little more famous (for lack of a better word) to the outside hockey world.

You tend to get that famous when you are the greatest ever. :(

 

[Statorama]

Aaron Rudnicki, considering you were one of the ones arguing in Super Mario's favor yesterday, nice hijack here, to take attention away from The Great One's dominance. :(

When you look at both side by side you'd pick Mario but Gretzky was magical in so many ways.

People forget what an amazing passer Gretzky was. Absolutely brilliant player.

 

[gmbacm]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

Gretzky. But I dont think this is the question either to answer who was the best. Should be decided on what they did do, not what they would have done if healthy.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

What does Gretzky's long and healthy career have to do with him setting the record for most goals in a season in his 3rd NHL season?Edit: Notice how I cherry-picked part of your post, too.

It doesn't. Wayne scored the most goals in a season. If you adjust for era, health, and surrounding talent, however, I believe that Mario's numbers are more impressive. :(

 

[Copeman]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

This needs to be a separate poll.

It would still go in Wayne's favor because of the (uninformed/ignorant/media loving) masses. Not alot of true hockey fans in here. I'd be willing to bet half that have voted have never even seen these guys play. Not blaming them, just saying Wayne is a little more famous (for lack of a better word) to the outside hockey world.

You tend to get that famous when you are the greatest ever. :(

....or play on a team full of great players who helped you win the cup a bunch of times, then move to one of the media meccas of the world in Los Angeles, and marry a hot woman who everyone knows at the time and then have your pics and stories in every grocery market magazine.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

No, not a good question.No reason to throw in the caveats of health and playing at their peak for 10 years. Take what we know and draft based on that. Their peak starts at age X and lasts for Y years.

health is a separate issue from who is/was the best player.

 

[Ghost Rider]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

Gretzky. But I dont think this is the question either to answer who was the best. Should be decided on what they did do, not what they would have done if healthy.

Exactly. Like it or not, part of being the best ever is being lucky enough to stay relatively healthy for all or most of your career. No, Mario couldn't control getting cancer, and it sucks that he had to go through that, and his other injury problems sucked, too, but they are part of the equation.

 

[Ghost Rider]

What does Gretzky's long and healthy career have to do with him setting the record for most goals in a season in his 3rd NHL season?Edit: Notice how I cherry-picked part of your post, too.

It doesn't. Wayne scored the most goals in a season. If you adjust for era, health, and surrounding talent, however, I believe that Mario's numbers are more impressive.

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but it is apparent that you are in vast minority of people who think that, and not just here, I would presume.

You tend to get that famous when you are the greatest ever.

....or play on a team full of great players who helped you win the cup a bunch of times, then move to one of the media meccas of the world in Los Angeles, and marry a hot woman who everyone knows at the time and then have your pics and stories in every grocery market magazine.

Yeah, starring in that 5th Police Academy debacle really made Janet Jones a household name, didn't it?

 

[Copeman]

What does Gretzky's long and healthy career have to do with him setting the record for most goals in a season in his 3rd NHL season?Edit: Notice how I cherry-picked part of your post, too.

It doesn't. Wayne scored the most goals in a season. If you adjust for era, health, and surrounding talent, however, I believe that Mario's numbers are more impressive.

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but it is apparent that you are in vast minority of people who think that, and not just here, I would presume.

You tend to get that famous when you are the greatest ever.

....or play on a team full of great players who helped you win the cup a bunch of times, then move to one of the media meccas of the world in Los Angeles, and marry a hot woman who everyone knows at the time and then have your pics and stories in every grocery market magazine.

Yeah, starring in that 5th Police Academy debacle really made Janet Jones a household name, didn't it?

Doesn't change the facts I presented.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

Gretzky. But I dont think this is the question either to answer who was the best. Should be decided on what they did do, not what they would have done if healthy.

Gretzky had the better career. Nobody can argue that.Some think Mario was the better player though. Because they played on different teams in slightly different eras with different surrounding talent, strength of competition, coaching, health, etc. the comparison is almost entirely subjective. If you could control for all of those differences in this hypothetical scenario and project their performance going forward, I think you get to the heart of who is the better player.

 

[dgreen]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

No, not a good question.No reason to throw in the caveats of health and playing at their peak for 10 years. Take what we know and draft based on that. Their peak starts at age X and lasts for Y years.

health is a separate issue from who is/was the best player.

Not if that health issue keeps you off the ice regardless of what happens on the ice. Draft Lemieux in 1960, 1985, or 2009 and he's going to have a bad back and cancer. We know those things about him. He didn't get cancer because of a dirty hit into the boards. Cancer is as a part of Mario just as Gretzky's small stature is part of him.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Doesn't change the facts I presented.

Only they aren't facts. Everyone knew Janet Jones at the time? Uh, no. Okay, she did that movie where she was a gymnast (cannot remember the name), but that hardly made her a household name. In fact, being married to the biggest hockey star in the world, at a time where hockey was still pretty popular, did a lot more for her name than being married to her and living in L.A. did for Gretzky's. In fact, being as popular as he was pre-trade, despite playing in freaking Edmonton, was a testament to how huge The Great One was.

 

[Running with scissors]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

This needs to be a separate poll.

It would still go in Wayne's favor because of the (uninformed/ignorant/media loving) masses. Not alot of true hockey fans in here. I'd be willing to bet half that have voted have never even seen these guys play. Not blaming them, just saying Wayne is a little more famous (for lack of a better word) to the outside hockey world.

Exactly why I won't go into the Shark Pool anymore.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

No, not a good question.No reason to throw in the caveats of health and playing at their peak for 10 years. Take what we know and draft based on that. Their peak starts at age X and lasts for Y years.

health is a separate issue from who is/was the best player.

Not if that health issue keeps you off the ice regardless of what happens on the ice. Draft Lemieux in 1960, 1985, or 2009 and he's going to have a bad back and cancer. We know those things about him. He didn't get cancer because of a dirty hit into the boards. Cancer is as a part of Mario just as Gretzky's small stature is part of him.

fair enough. but, even with cancer and a bad back, Mario put up numbers when he played that were very comparable to the ones Gretzky put up.

 

[guru_007]

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

yes I do.

ok, not sure he'd make my top-10 list so it seems we have completely different opinions on how to evaluate these things.

sorry, but this is as silly as those stating that Lemieux shouldn't be mentioned in the top 10 NHL players of all time.

 

[dgreen]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

No, not a good question.No reason to throw in the caveats of health and playing at their peak for 10 years. Take what we know and draft based on that. Their peak starts at age X and lasts for Y years.

health is a separate issue from who is/was the best player.

Not if that health issue keeps you off the ice regardless of what happens on the ice. Draft Lemieux in 1960, 1985, or 2009 and he's going to have a bad back and cancer. We know those things about him. He didn't get cancer because of a dirty hit into the boards. Cancer is as a part of Mario just as Gretzky's small stature is part of him.

fair enough. but, even with cancer and a bad back, Mario put up numbers when he played that were very comparable to the ones Gretzky put up.

Sure. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing all the exceptions people want to make to vault Mario above Gretzky. So much of the Mario support is based no "if this" and "if that". I don't generally have a problem with some of that. I think it's part of the analysis. But, that appears to be a very large portion.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

yes I do.

ok, not sure he'd make my top-10 list so it seems we have completely different opinions on how to evaluate these things.

sorry, but this is as silly as those stating that Lemieux shouldn't be mentioned in the top 10 NHL players of all time.

agree to disagree.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

Gretzky. His passing ability would make it easier to put lesser players around him who would still perform well because they would find the puck on their stick right where it needed to be and when it needed to be there. That's what makes Gretzky better, IMO. He was such a good passer than even you and I could have scored playing with him. I don't remember what year it was, but in one of the All Star games he was coming down with the puck in a 2 on 1 and the defender, goalie, teammate and every one else in the building knew he was going to pass it. The defender basically acted like a goalie with his stick and skates, not even playing the shot. Gretzky put it right by him and his teammate one timed it for a goal. Incredible play.

 

[Copeman]

Doesn't change the facts I presented.

Only they aren't facts. Everyone knew Janet Jones at the time? Uh, no. Okay, she did that movie where she was a gymnast (cannot remember the name), but that hardly made her a household name. In fact, being married to the biggest hockey star in the world, at a time where hockey was still pretty popular, did a lot more for her name than being married to her and living in L.A. did for Gretzky's.

You missed my point shockingly.Further discussing the merits of having a poll like this in a medium such as this, I would think that a poll such as this would be better suited in a hockey forum, much like this one, where the voters would definitly have a bit more hockey sense/insight. And as you can see, the poll numbrs are a bit different than here. Shockingly.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Doesn't change the facts I presented.

Only they aren't facts. Everyone knew Janet Jones at the time? Uh, no. Okay, she did that movie where she was a gymnast (cannot remember the name), but that hardly made her a household name. In fact, being married to the biggest hockey star in the world, at a time where hockey was still pretty popular, did a lot more for her name than being married to her and living in L.A. did for Gretzky's.

You missed my point shockingly.Further discussing the merits of having a poll like this in a medium such as this, I would think that a poll such as this would be better suited in a hockey forum, much like this one, where the voters would definitly have a bit more hockey sense/insight. And as you can see, the poll numbrs are a bit different than here. Shockingly.

had to click around to find it, but here was the question and results of that poll. not familiar with that message board.

Poll Question:

Obviously the two most offensively talented forwards to play the game. Which one would you say was the better of the two. It's close, but who do you give the edge to and why? If your answer is going to be something like "just look at the stats" don't even bother commenting please. To eliminate ambiguity, i shall endeavor to clarify this further. There are two ways to evaluate players. Peak value and career value. Peak value means in their prime at their best. Career obviously gives consideration to the length played. In this poll I would like to know which of these players had the better peak value?

Results:

Gretzky [49%] 370 votes

Lemieux [51%] 389 votes

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.as...3&results=1

 

[Dark Matter]

 

[Ghost Rider]

There were two questions on that forum on the first page of the poll section, asking who the greatest player of all-time was. In both of them, Mario was a distant 3rd behind Gretzky and Orr. In one of them, Gretzky had a narrow lead over Orr, and in the other, Gretzky had a good-sized lead over Orr.

 

[Copeman]

Doesn't change the facts I presented.

Only they aren't facts. Everyone knew Janet Jones at the time? Uh, no. Okay, she did that movie where she was a gymnast (cannot remember the name), but that hardly made her a household name. In fact, being married to the biggest hockey star in the world, at a time where hockey was still pretty popular, did a lot more for her name than being married to her and living in L.A. did for Gretzky's.

You missed my point shockingly.Further discussing the merits of having a poll like this in a medium such as this, I would think that a poll such as this would be better suited in a hockey forum, much like this one, where the voters would definitly have a bit more hockey sense/insight. And as you can see, the poll numbrs are a bit different than here. Shockingly.

had to click around to find it, but here was the question and results of that poll. not familiar with that message board.

Poll Question:

Obviously the two most offensively talented forwards to play the game. Which one would you say was the better of the two. It's close, but who do you give the edge to and why? If your answer is going to be something like "just look at the stats" don't even bother commenting please. To eliminate ambiguity, i shall endeavor to clarify this further. There are two ways to evaluate players. Peak value and career value. Peak value means in their prime at their best. Career obviously gives consideration to the length played. In this poll I would like to know which of these players had the better peak value?

Results:

Gretzky [49%] 370 votes

Lemieux [51%] 389 votes

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.as...3&results=1

Hmm, it goes directly to the poll when I click it. In any case, the proof is there. I would rather be inclined to see opinions about this subject on that board.

 

[Copeman]

There were two questions on that forum on the first page of the poll section, asking who the greatest player of all-time was. In both of them, Mario was a distant 3rd behind Gretzky and Orr. In one of them, Gretzky had a narrow lead over Orr, and in the other, Gretzky had a good-sized lead over Orr.

This poll had more of the same wording I was looking for regarding "best career, at their peak, etc"....The wording we have been using to address it in this thread.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I would rather be inclined to see opinions about this subject on that board.

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=830Poll Question:

Who Is The greatest hockey player ever?

Patrick Frame

Results:

Wayne Gretzky [40%] 686 votes

Gordie Howe [4%] 61 votes

Bobby Orr [34%] 594 votes

Guy Lafleur [1%] 21 votes

Mark Messier [1%] 15 votes

Maurice Richard [4%] 62 votes

Mario Lemeuix [13%] 223 votes

Other [4%] 70 votes

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4756

Poll Question:

What player do you think is the best player of all times?

Results:

Wayne Gretzky [49%] 465 votes

Gordie Howe [5%] 49 votes

Bobby Orr [17%] 161 votes

Guy Lafleur [1%] 13 votes

Mark Messier [1%] 13 votes

Maurice Richard [7%] 62 votes

Mario Lemeuix [14%] 132 votes

Sergei Fedorov [2%] 15 votes

Other(who?) [4%] 34 votes

 

[Copeman]

I would rather be inclined to see opinions about this subject on that board.

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=830Poll Question:

Who Is The greatest hockey player ever?

Patrick Frame

Results:

Wayne Gretzky [40%] 686 votes

Gordie Howe [4%] 61 votes

Bobby Orr [34%] 594 votes

Guy Lafleur [1%] 21 votes

Mark Messier [1%] 15 votes

Maurice Richard [4%] 62 votes

Mario Lemeuix [13%] 223 votes

Other [4%] 70 votes

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4756

Poll Question:

What player do you think is the best player of all times?

Results:

Wayne Gretzky [49%] 465 votes

Gordie Howe [5%] 49 votes

Bobby Orr [17%] 161 votes

Guy Lafleur [1%] 13 votes

Mark Messier [1%] 13 votes

Maurice Richard [7%] 62 votes

Mario Lemeuix [14%] 132 votes

Sergei Fedorov [2%] 15 votes

Other(who?) [4%] 34 votes

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I'd expect Gretzky to win every poll. Doesn't mean that Mario doesn't have a strong case.

I also think Hasek was a better goalie than Roy, but gllll finding many people to agree with me.

 

[Ghost Rider]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

greatest career != greatest player

 

[Copeman]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

No, I looked through them all and found it. If you'll notice, it has the exact wording we have used here regarding peak/career, etc.....Sorry if it totally deflated your stance. Oh well.I will take the opinions of hockey fans over people on this board (no offense to many of you, I say that only because that board is dedicated to hockey and obviously there will be more hockey fans there) any day. Especially on a poll EXACTLY like the one we are discussing here.

 

[gmbacm]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

greatest career != greatest player

The other polls don't mention career either.

 

[Ghost Rider]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

No, I looked through them all and found it. If you'll notice, it has the exact wording we have used here regarding peak/career, etc.....Sorry if it totally deflated your stance. Oh well.I will take the opinions of hockey fans over people on this board (no offense to many of you, I say that only because that board is dedicated to hockey and obviously there will be more hockey fans there) any day. Especially on a poll EXACTLY like the one we are discussing here.

No, it is the wording that several of you who are defending Mario are using, not necessarily everyone else. Oh, and some of the arguments in that thread, for both sides, are far more ridiculous than any that anyone in this thread has made thus far, so I will take the results there with a grain of salt. What would you say if someone said a poll ran in the Shark Pool was gospel as to deciding something like this? Plus, it seems like many of the posters there are younger, as some have said that they never saw either play, so I have to question what percentage of people there actually saw both guys play back in their primes. It would be like going to a NBA forum of people mostly 30 and younger and asking who is better all-time, Magic Johnson or LeBron James. LeBron would probably win that poll!

 

[gmbacm]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

No, I looked through them all and found it. If you'll notice, it has the exact wording we have used here regarding peak/career, etc.....Sorry if it totally deflated your stance. Oh well.I will take the opinions of hockey fans over people on this board (no offense to many of you, I say that only because that board is dedicated to hockey and obviously there will be more hockey fans there) any day. Especially on a poll EXACTLY like the one we are discussing here.

Im not sure what you are suggesting that poll shows? You found one poll that basically calls it a tie, and there are multiple other polls including this board that give Gretzky the win. Ive got not problem with you taking their opinions in that poll, but that poll does not conclusively indicate Mario was the better player.

 

[Copeman]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

No, I looked through them all and found it. If you'll notice, it has the exact wording we have used here regarding peak/career, etc.....Sorry if it totally deflated your stance. Oh well.I will take the opinions of hockey fans over people on this board (no offense to many of you, I say that only because that board is dedicated to hockey and obviously there will be more hockey fans there) any day. Especially on a poll EXACTLY like the one we are discussing here.

No, it is the wording that several of you who are defending Mario are using, not necessarily everyone else. Oh, and some of the arguments in that thread, for both sides, are far more ridiculous than any that anyone in this thread has made thus far, so I will take the results there with a grain of salt. What would you say if someone said a poll ran in the Shark Pool was gospel as to deciding something like this?

I never said it was gospel. Please don't put words in my mouth. You know exactly what I meant. If I saw a thread there discussing the best QB of all time, I would point to this board and tell them I would trust FBG and their judgement more on that issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry you can't see that.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Here are two related polls from hockeysfuture:

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=516345

View Poll Results: Best of the 3

mytagid = Math.floor( Math.random() * 100 );document.write("

Bobby Orr 94 22.98%

Wayne Gretzky 211 51.59%

Mario Lemieux 104 25.43%*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***");document.close();

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=554001

View Poll Results: Most dominant during their prime?

mytagid = Math.floor( Math.random() * 100 );document.write("

Gretzky 181 53.71%

Lemieux 156 46.29%*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***");document.close();

 

[Ghost Rider]

Im not sure what you are suggesting that poll shows? You found one poll that basically calls it a tie, and there are multiple other polls including this board that give Gretzky the win. Ive got not problem with you taking their opinions in that poll, but that poll does not conclusively indicate Mario was the better player.

I never said it was gospel. Please don't put words in my mouth. You know exactly what I meant. If I saw a thread there discussing the best QB of all time, I would point to this board and tell them I would trust FBG and their judgement more on that issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry you can't see that.

You implied that it meant more than any poll here would, or any other poll there would (as if any online poll really means a damn thing ), simply because a) the result is to your liking, and b) the wording is similar to the wording you are using. Sorry YOU can't see that.

 

[Copeman]

See one post above and why I picked the poll I picked.

You picked that one because it was the one Mario did well in. But let's not act like these so-called more intelligent hockey fans, as you called them, didn't also overwhelmingly pick Gretzky as the greatest ever in several other polls, k?

No, I looked through them all and found it. If you'll notice, it has the exact wording we have used here regarding peak/career, etc.....Sorry if it totally deflated your stance. Oh well.I will take the opinions of hockey fans over people on this board (no offense to many of you, I say that only because that board is dedicated to hockey and obviously there will be more hockey fans there) any day. Especially on a poll EXACTLY like the one we are discussing here.

Im not sure what you are suggesting that poll shows? You found one poll that basically calls it a tie, and there are multiple other polls including this board that give Gretzky the win. Ive got not problem with you taking their opinions in that poll, but that poll does not conclusively indicate Mario was the better player.

I never suggested it was a poll that showed Mario as being better. But it is alot closer among true hockey fans. And the poll I linked used many of the same issues we used here, one's the others did not. That is all.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

some great stuff in those hockeysfuture threads.

He's the best player I've seen since I got into the league in '67. I've always said he's the most complete player I've seen because he can score, he can make plays, he's got the reach and, when you need defense, he can provide it."-Scotty Bowman"On sheer ability, Mario is good enough to win scoring titles with a broken stick. On pure talent, he's the best there is. But Wayne almost never disappoints you. He comes to work every night."-Bobby Orr

 

[Copeman]

Im not sure what you are suggesting that poll shows? You found one poll that basically calls it a tie, and there are multiple other polls including this board that give Gretzky the win. Ive got not problem with you taking their opinions in that poll, but that poll does not conclusively indicate Mario was the better player.

I never said it was gospel. Please don't put words in my mouth. You know exactly what I meant. If I saw a thread there discussing the best QB of all time, I would point to this board and tell them I would trust FBG and their judgement more on that issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry you can't see that.

You implied that it meant more than any poll here would, or any other poll there would (as if any online poll really means a damn thing ), simply because a) the result is to your liking, and b) the wording is similar to the wording you are using. Sorry YOU can't see that.

I feel a hockey poll there would hold more water than here, yes no doubt. As far as choosing it because it was to my liking, no. I already explained that. Please, keep disregarding that. Even then, it's (the poll) still too close for a winner. I'm just merely suggesting that many more people think it's alot closer than the results we have here. Even the other polls where Wayne is leading are closer, so your notions are ridiculous. I never once Said Mario is the clear cut favorite. Ever. In fact, I said it's just too close to call. Much like those polls on that hockey board. Which, yes, again, I will take more serious than a hockey poll on this board.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=155...mp;postcount=64

As alluded to in the above post, comparing Gretzky's raw point totals to Lemieux's for the purposes of determining which player had a more productive prime is a somewhat misguided approach as the league wide average goals/game was not uniform throughout the period in question.

What I've done in the tables below is adjust each player's stats for the scoring context. Basically, each player's totals are normalized to the same scoring context -- specifically, the totals reflect what each player would have (theoretically) produced if the average goals/game had been ~6.16, which is the average for all NHL seasons from 1935-36 onward. The column in the right -- which shows each player's adjusted points/game for that particular season -- is the important one.

Based on the figures, Gretzky's prime can be identified as existing from 1981-82 until roughly 1987-88. What's immediately evident is his consistency throughout this period, with all of his adjusted P/G totals falling within 1.93-2.16. Lemieux's prime is somewhat more difficult to classify, although based on the data I'd say that it existed from 1987-88 until 2000-01. His totals are a bit more varied than Gretzky's (range: 1.54-2.26), though I suspect this might reflect the fact that he was often injured during this period and was only to play a fraction of the schedule in some years, thus leading to the greater variance. What's notable is the fact that his best numbers are better than those of Gretzky's, which obviously has relevance within the context of this thread.

Admittedly, this method is somewhat biased in Lemieux's favor as his most productive years (in terms of adjusted P/G) were also years that featured a larger standard deviation in terms of point distribution among all players (but specifically forwards). For example, Lemieux's adjusted P/G in 1992-93 (2.26) is superior to Gretzky's best season in 1983-84 (2.16).

However, Gretzky's season was arguably more impressive if we attempt to control for scoring variance. For all forwards who played at least 40 games in 1983-84, the average points/game was 0.68 with a standard deviation of 0.36. Thus, Gretzky was 5.86 standard deviations above the mean in terms of points per game.

Applying the same method to Lemieux's best campaign, we find that the average points/game was 0.62 with a standard deviation of 0.39. Thus, Lemieux's points/game was 5.25 standard deviations above the mean. Obviously, this isn't the most statistically rigorous method, but I find that it works well enough for this purpose.

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=155...mp;postcount=80

Results

During the selected ten years, adjusted for fluctuations in the schedule length and the average number of goals per game, Gretzky averaged 79 games and 157 points; Lemieux averaged 68 games and 130 pts. Gretzky has a lead in points-per-game (1.99 ppg vs 1.93).

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The Shark Pool should take note of this thread. If we had conversations over there like we are in here, I'd be over there more. Good stuff.

 

[Copeman]

Im not sure what you are suggesting that poll shows? You found one poll that basically calls it a tie, and there are multiple other polls including this board that give Gretzky the win. Ive got not problem with you taking their opinions in that poll, but that poll does not conclusively indicate Mario was the better player.

I never said it was gospel. Please don't put words in my mouth. You know exactly what I meant. If I saw a thread there discussing the best QB of all time, I would point to this board and tell them I would trust FBG and their judgement more on that issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry you can't see that.

or any other poll there would (as if any online poll really means a damn thing :lol

So I guess your poll here that you started doesn't mean a damn thing then, right?

 

[Ghost Rider]

The Shark Pool should take note of this thread. If we had conversations over there like we are in here, I'd be over there more. Good stuff.

Even though I might not agree with some, I enjoy these kind of debates.

So I guess your poll here that you started doesn't mean a damn thing then, right?

Not really, no.

 

[dparker713]

some great stuff in those hockeysfuture threads.

He's the best player I've seen since I got into the league in '67. I've always said he's the most complete player I've seen because he can score, he can make plays, he's got the reach and, when you need defense, he can provide it."-Scotty Bowman"On sheer ability, Mario is good enough to win scoring titles with a broken stick. On pure talent, he's the best there is. But Wayne almost never disappoints you. He comes to work every night."-Bobby Orr

You do realize you need to be on the ice and not in the training room to actually help your team win - which is generally the point. Yet somehow, Mario supporters use his inability to stay healthy even when he was young as support for his greatness by relying exclusively on per game measurements. Think maybe, just maybe, had he played through more injuries he'd have lower per game stats? This isnt even a Koufax/Maddox debate where one guy's career was cut short. Mario was almost never healthy. Thats why the article with the homer taking Mario over Wayne to start a franchise was absurd. Why would you sign up for a guy thats going to play in 70% of your games over 13 years when you can get a guy for 90% over 20?

 

[Ghost Rider]

You do realize you need to be on the ice and not in the training room to actually help your team win - which is generally the point. Yet somehow, Mario supporters use his inability to stay healthy even when he was young as support for his greatness by relying exclusively on per game measurements. Think maybe, just maybe, had he played through more injuries he'd have lower per game stats? This isnt even a Koufax/Maddox debate where one guy's career was cut short. Mario was almost never healthy. Thats why the article with the homer taking Mario over Wayne to start a franchise was absurd. Why would you sign up for a guy thats going to play in 70% of your games over 13 years when you can get a guy for 90% over 20?

I couldn't agree more. Over his 17-year career, Mario averaged playing in 54 games a season. And even if you eliminate the last two seasons (when he only played in 36 total games), he only played in 59 games a season over his 15 years. He only played in 70 or more games in a season six times. Meanwhile, Gretzky averaged playing 74 games a season over a 20-year span, and played in 70 or more games 17 (!!!) times.For the sake of argument, let's assume equal productivity out of Gretzky and Lemieux for a minute. Why in the world would anyone pick a guy who plays 59 games a season over a guy who plays 74 games a season, when you are going to get equal per-game production?

 

[dparker713]

Im not sure what you are suggesting that poll shows? You found one poll that basically calls it a tie, and there are multiple other polls including this board that give Gretzky the win. Ive got not problem with you taking their opinions in that poll, but that poll does not conclusively indicate Mario was the better player.

I never said it was gospel. Please don't put words in my mouth. You know exactly what I meant. If I saw a thread there discussing the best QB of all time, I would point to this board and tell them I would trust FBG and their judgement more on that issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry you can't see that.

You implied that it meant more than any poll here would, or any other poll there would (as if any online poll really means a damn thing ), simply because a) the result is to your liking, and b) the wording is similar to the wording you are using. Sorry YOU can't see that.

I feel a hockey poll there would hold more water than here, yes no doubt. As far as choosing it because it was to my liking, no. I already explained that. Please, keep disregarding that. Even then, it's (the poll) still too close for a winner. I'm just merely suggesting that many more people think it's alot closer than the results we have here. Even the other polls where Wayne is leading are closer, so your notions are ridiculous. I never once Said Mario is the clear cut favorite. Ever. In fact, I said it's just too close to call. Much like those polls on that hockey board. Which, yes, again, I will take more serious than a hockey poll on this board.

You need to re-read the title of this thread and the poll question. It says all time. No mention of peak. The Mario supporters are trying to frame the question in terms of peak, and if you're considering JUST peak, he's still way behind - because he couldnt even stay healthy during his peak.

 

[Ghost Rider]

You need to re-read the title of this thread and the poll question. It says all time. No mention of peak. The Mario supporters are trying to frame the question in terms of peak, and if you're considering JUST peak, he's still way behind - because he couldnt even stay healthy during his peak.

Also, in the two seasons when the Penguins won the Stanley Cup, Mario played a combined 90 regular season games in those two seasons. 90 out of a possible 160 (56%). Sounds to me like Mario must have had one helluva surrounding cast, too, to have won the Stanley Cup in a season ('90-'91) where he played 26 games.

 

[maxwelledison]

This debate will never be settled but it is still fun to have.

Wayne's stats cannot be measured. He is by far the most dominant statistical player of all time, arguably in any sport, and there is no taking that away from him. More importantly, he truly revolutionized the game; before Wayne, forwards rarely, if ever, considered curling back to the blue line as they rushed into the offensive zone to hit a streaking winger on the other side of the ice while the defenseman (or men) awkwardly moved in no man's land, covering neither Gretzky nor the streaking winger (Orr opened the door to this but Wayne kicked it down). That play was exploited for everything it was worth and is pretty much dead now except on off-angle odd-man rushes or in rare circumstances by special players (i.e., Crosby et al). This is just one example of how Gretzky altered offensive philosophy - and this is a separate thread in itself - but he truly changed the way the game was conceived. Before Wayne, most great players were known for their goal scoring prowess. After Wayne, passing became the truly great player's calling card. Even without his video game numbers he would be on the short list for greatest ever for this accomplishment.

That said, anyone following the NHL over the past 30 years knows the greatest changes n the game occurred between approx. 1987 and 1997. In addition to better training (the quality of play from 1980 to even 1990 is grossly improved and noticeable even to the casual observer), the influx of great European players, bigger goaltending equipment and sophisticated defensive adjustments to the style Gretzky largely introduced, further expansion led to "clutching and grabbing". This defensive "tactic" is sometimes confused with the Trap, which is a legitimate defensive style, because it is often employed by teams of limited talent that also used the Trap. However, the clutch and grab differs because it allows lesser players to compete with guys they have no business being on the ice with because refs are reluctant to call 20 penalties a game. This is the era Lemieux played his prime in and what led him to call the NHL a "garage league" in the 90s. Basically, Mario really had only 5-6 years of what we know as 80s hockey. By contrast, by that time Wayne had already put up his sick numbers and was aging gracefully.

My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.

 

[Copeman]

Im not sure what you are suggesting that poll shows? You found one poll that basically calls it a tie, and there are multiple other polls including this board that give Gretzky the win. Ive got not problem with you taking their opinions in that poll, but that poll does not conclusively indicate Mario was the better player.

I never said it was gospel. Please don't put words in my mouth. You know exactly what I meant. If I saw a thread there discussing the best QB of all time, I would point to this board and tell them I would trust FBG and their judgement more on that issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry you can't see that.

You implied that it meant more than any poll here would, or any other poll there would (as if any online poll really means a damn thing ), simply because a) the result is to your liking, and b) the wording is similar to the wording you are using. Sorry YOU can't see that.

I feel a hockey poll there would hold more water than here, yes no doubt. As far as choosing it because it was to my liking, no. I already explained that. Please, keep disregarding that. Even then, it's (the poll) still too close for a winner. I'm just merely suggesting that many more people think it's alot closer than the results we have here. Even the other polls where Wayne is leading are closer, so your notions are ridiculous. I never once Said Mario is the clear cut favorite. Ever. In fact, I said it's just too close to call. Much like those polls on that hockey board. Which, yes, again, I will take more serious than a hockey poll on this board.

You need to re-read the title of this thread and the poll question. It says all time. No mention of peak. The Mario supporters are trying to frame the question in terms of peak, and if you're considering JUST peak, he's still way behind - because he couldnt even stay healthy during his peak.

I know what the title is, but as the thread went on, everyone (both Wayne AND Mario supporters) brought these issues up. That is why I did as well. As far as not talking about those issues, and talking about the best ever (a simple black and white question) the polls on that hockey board are much more equal than here. Which again, is all I have been saying the whole time.

 

[Copeman]

This debate will never be settled but it is still fun to have.Wayne's stats cannot be measured. He is by far the most dominant statistical player of all time, arguably in any sport, and there is no taking that away from him. More importantly, he truly revolutionized the game; before Wayne, forwards rarely, if ever, considered curling back to the blue line as they rushed into the offensive zone to hit a streaking winger on the other side of the ice while the defenseman (or men) awkwardly moved in no man's land, covering neither Gretzky nor the streaking winger (Orr opened the door to this but Wayne kicked it down). That play was exploited for everything it was worth and is pretty much dead now except on off-angle odd-man rushes or in rare circumstances by special players (i.e., Crosby et al). This is just one example of how Gretzky altered offensive philosophy - and this is a separate thread in itself - but he truly changed the way the game was conceived. Before Wayne, most great players were known for their goal scoring prowess. After Wayne, passing became the truly great player's calling card. Even without his video game numbers he would be on the short list for greatest ever for this accomplishment. That said, anyone following the NHL over the past 30 years knows the greatest changes n the game occurred between approx. 1987 and 1997. In addition to better training (the quality of play from 1980 to even 1990 is grossly improved and noticeable even to the casual observer), the influx of great European players, bigger goaltending equipment and sophisticated defensive adjustments to the style Gretzky largely introduced, further expansion led to "clutching and grabbing". This defensive "tactic" is sometimes confused with the Trap, which is a legitimate defensive style, because it is often employed by teams of limited talent that also used the Trap. However, the clutch and grab differs because it allows lesser players to compete with guys they have no business being on the ice with because refs are reluctant to call 20 penalties a game. This is the era Lemieux played his prime in and what led him to call the NHL a "garage league" in the 90s. Basically, Mario really had only 5-6 years of what we know as 80s hockey. By contrast, by that time Wayne had already put up his sick numbers and was aging gracefully.My point is this: Wayne was a genius of the game but he benefitted from a perfect storm of timing and teammates to achieve the stats that many cite in their argument for him being the GOAT. But when it comes to ability as a hockey player, Mario beats Wayne in every category except possibly vision and passing and even in those areas it is only a slight advantage to Wayne. After 30 years of watching I have yet to see a guy as good as Mario. In fact, I have yet to see a guy that is even that close.

Great post.