We're in a permanent coup (1 Viewer)

[The Commish]

@jon_mx correctly states that perception of conflict is as bad as actual conflict

I just can't get on board with this.  I completely get the perception is bad, but these are degrees IMO.  Perception warrants an investigation to determine if the perception is legit or not.  If that investigation turns up nothing, sobeit.  If it turns up shady #### go after them.  Flat out conflict of interest is obvious and no investigation is needed.

I should also take this opportunity to remind everyone that Joe Biden was pressing for investigations to be done into this company his son was on the board of.  He was part of a large group of countries who wanted these investigations to happen.  He pressed to have fired the guy who was not doing the investigations along with that larger group to get someone in there who would do the investigation.  Once that guy was in in place and the investigation was done, it was found to be no issue.  Now Trump is asking for ANOTHER investigation and I still haven't gotten a legit reason for the second investigation.  The one reason I heard was because they didn't trust the last investigator's investigation.  So they don't trust the guy who replaced the guy not acting because they are afraid he was being pressured by Biden not to investigate and Biden showed his motives by demanding the non-actor be fired so an actual investigation would occur.  

Wouldn't it make SIGNIFICANTLY more sense for Joe Biden to want to keep the non-actor in place in lieu of pushing for the new guy if his entire objective was to protect his son?

NOTE:  moleculo, the second part of this isn't directed to you specifically.  It's to all those who think Joe was trying to protect his son.

 

[moleculo]

I just can't get on board with this.  I completely get the perception is bad, but these are degrees IMO.  Perception warrants an investigation to determine if the perception is legit or not.  If that investigation turns up nothing, sobeit.  If it turns up shady #### go after them.  Flat out conflict of interest is obvious and no investigation is needed.

I should also take this opportunity to remind everyone that Joe Biden was pressing for investigations to be done into this company his son was on the board of.  He was part of a large group of countries who wanted these investigations to happen.  He pressed to have fired the guy who was not doing the investigations along with that larger group to get someone in there who would do the investigation.  Once that guy was in in place and the investigation was done, it was found to be no issue.  Now Trump is asking for ANOTHER investigation and I still haven't gotten a legit reason for the second investigation.  The one reason I heard was because they didn't trust the last investigator's investigation.  So they don't trust the guy who replaced the guy not acting because they are afraid he was being pressured by Biden not to investigate and Biden showed his motives by demanding the non-actor be fired so an actual investigation would occur.  

Wouldn't it make SIGNIFICANTLY more sense for Joe Biden to want to keep the non-actor in place in lieu of pushing for the new guy if his entire objective was to protect his son?

NOTE:  moleculo, the second part of this isn't directed to you specifically.  It's to all those who think Joe was trying to protect his son.

I got you, it's all good.

One could argue that Shokin shut down the Bruisma because he didn't want to piss off Biden.  That's part of the problem with perceived C of I - it's not just what happens, it's what doesn't happen.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I remember driving around the state during Katrina listening to national radio programs, conservative and liberal both, talking about what was happening in my hometown. I’d listen to someone say something about a place I had just been or an event that had just happened that I knew about directly, and I’d just shake my head incredulously wondering how these claims came to be.

I’m guessing folks in Kiev are going through the same thing. Shokin was through and through a corrupt Yanukovych apparatchik, the man was part and parcel of that awful regime and he was a holdover under Poroshenko. Talking about him even considering seriously investigating Zlochevsky or Burisma is like someone in a sports bar trying to convince you Roger Staubach played for the Jets or Joe Montana was a backup RB for the Steelers. 

 

[jon_mx]

Spot on....

And this is where people are going to give you grief and it is absolutely NOT semantics.  There is a significant difference between stating "hey, that IS a conflict of interest" and "hey, that MIGHT be a conflict of interest...we better look into that further".  The details in these conversations matter a lot.  They are important to get right.  There's a whole timeline out there showing exactly what's happened.  And Trump's position of "hey, we need to investigate this because it's a conflict of interest" is completely negated by the timeline and any facts of the events.  It's been investigated and two different prosecutors have come back with "nothing to see here folks".  One can make the argument that they don't trust those prosecutors because they were pressured by Biden.  That exact same argument can be made by the opposite side saying those prosecutors were pressured by Trump.  So where does that leave us?

That leaves me to come to realize people do not understand what a conflict of interest is.  Say for instance a government contracting officer is working on a contract which includes a company her sister is working on.  There IS a conflict of interest.  It does not matter if she behaved perfectly ethical and always in the best interest of the government. The conflict of interest existed, not just some appearance.  

 

[pinkham13]

GD it
I knew I shouldn't have responded to this stuff  #### me!

 No offense taken by me here with your words commish and I think you are a fine poster but I see the right winger you responded to got the day off for subverting the language filter. I wonder if you did too in all fairness. If we’re going to spank people for this type of thing at least be consistent and not single out just team red here.

 

[moleculo]

@jon_mx - the other side of the same coin is that, as the son of a VP, there is literally no job Hunter could have that doesn't possibly  fall under his father's purveyance. 

Are you advocating that immediate family of top level gov't employees should not be employed?

 

[The Commish]

I got you, it's all good.

One could argue that Shokin shut down the Bruisma because he didn't want to piss off Biden.  That's part of the problem with perceived C of I - it's not just what happens, it's what doesn't happen.

Not sure i follow. Biden and the other countries were mad Shokin wasn't investigating,  right?

 

[The Commish]

That leaves me to come to realize people do not understand what a conflict of interest is.  Say for instance a government contracting officer is working on a contract which includes a company her sister is working on.  There IS a conflict of interest.  It does not matter if she behaved perfectly ethical and always in the best interest of the government. The conflict of interest existed, not just some appearance.  

In your hypo here.... what was the conflict?

 

[The Commish]

@jon_mx - the other side of the same coin is that, as the son of a VP, there is literally no job Hunter could have that doesn't possibly  fall under his father's purveyance. 

Are you advocating that immediate family of top level gov't employees should not be employed?

This is where i was headed. By Jon's standard,  there isn't a job his kids could have held and not been a conflict. That's why i believe there is a lot more to it than what he suggests

 

[The Commish]

 No offense taken by me here with your words commish and I think you are a fine poster but I see the right winger you responded to got the day off for subverting the language filter. I wonder if you did too in all fairness. If we’re going to spank people for this type of thing at least be consistent and not single out just team red here.

I don't know what you're asking me.  I use my own #  and mocked myself is that not allowed?

 

[moleculo]

Not sure i follow. Biden and the other countries were mad Shokin wasn't investigating,  right?

Of course.  Devil's advocate.

 

[jon_mx]

In your hypo here.... what was the conflict?

The conflict of interest is the interest she would have in representing the government's best interest vs. the interest she would have in benefiting her sister.  It is not really a hypothetical as this situation does occur and the contracting office would not be allowed to perform any work on that contract.  If the contracting officer did not disclose such conflict, she would be reprimanded and probably fired regardless if she didn't do anything improper on the contract. 

 

[jon_mx]

@jon_mx - the other side of the same coin is that, as the son of a VP, there is literally no job Hunter could have that doesn't possibly  fall under his father's purveyance. 

Are you advocating that immediate family of top level gov't employees should not be employed?

Most domestic jobs do not present a conflict of interest for a President let alone a VP.  A VP generally does nothing substainal.  But here, the one time Biden does step in and do something concrete with US policy, it just so happens that it somehow just happens to potentially impact the company his son works for in Ukraine.  How often does the US dictate that a prosecutor in some foreign country get fired.  It is a bit bizarre how it worked out.

 

[moleculo]

Most domestic jobs do not present a conflict of interest for a President let alone a VP.  A VP generally does nothing substainal.  But here, the one time Biden does step in and do something concrete with US policy, it just so happens that it somehow just happens to potentially impact the company his son works for in Ukraine.  How often does the US dictate that a prosecutor in some foreign country get fired.  It is a bit bizarre how it worked out.

Sure, this time.  But Biden was also the president of the Senate (largely ceremonial, I know), but hypothetically there is no business that falls outside his purveyance.  Suppose Biden was working for Locked Martin or Northrop Grumman.  Exxon.  Haliburton.  Amazon.  Amtrak.  CNN.  Trump Org.  Can you honestly guarantee that none of these jobs wouldn't eventually have business with the federal gov't?

 

[The Commish]

The conflict of interest is the interest she would have in representing the government's best interest vs. the interest she would have in benefiting her sister.  It is not really a hypothetical as this situation does occur and the contracting office would not be allowed to perform any work on that contract.  If the contracting officer did not disclose such conflict, she would be reprimanded and probably fired regardless if she didn't do anything improper on the contract. 

Whos to say those interests aren't the same?  Whose to say it's not in her sister's best interest for her to represent her company without looking at it closer?

 

[pinkham13]

GD it
 

Well I think we all know what words you meant here. Where I come from those are curse words and circumventing the language filter.

I just think if we’re going to spank folks for circumventing the filter it should be applied equally or not enforced at all. 

 

[jon_mx]

Whos to say those interests aren't the same?  Whose to say it's not in her sister's best interest for her to represent her company without looking at it closer?

Two parties may have some overlapping interests, but they are never completely the same.  Two parties on a contract always have an obvious competing interest.

 

[Mister CIA]

GD it
 

Well I think we all know what words you meant here. Where I come from those are curse words and circumventing the language filter.

I just think if we’re going to spank folks for circumventing the filter it should be applied equally or not enforced at all. 

Dammit!

 

[sn0mm1s]

Americans might soon wish they just waited to vote their way out of the Trump era

- By Matt Taibbi

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/were-in-a-permanent-coup

It's an interesting read and comes from a place of concern by a journalist who dislikes Trump. I think the author does a good job highlighting some aspects of the last 3 years that should frighten all Americans.  The comment section is worth a read as well as many of your "What about...." questions may be addressed. 

Only an idiot gives credence to any of this tripe in this article.

 

[Mister CIA]

This seems like a statistical anomoly. 

Recently Browsing:  Mister CIA,  DikJames,  Blick,  steelcitysledgehammers,  Navin Johnson

 

[The Commish]

Two parties may have some overlapping interests, but they are never completely the same.  Two parties on a contract always have an obvious competing interest.

There's a significant difference between "competing" and "conflicting" jon...you know that.  I can think of dozens of contracts I had with the federal government while my father was a financial aid director using the apps we created.  Of course it was required to disclose the relationship in every one of them, however NONE of them were deemed in conflict.  Which is my point....the appearance isn't always what it seems and conflict has to be determined via further analysis/investigation.  It's NOT a given.

 

[The Commish]

Well I think we all know what words you meant here. Where I come from those are curse words and circumventing the language filter.

I just think if we’re going to spank folks for circumventing the filter it should be applied equally or not enforced at all. 

I was using an abbreviation...is that against the rules?  

 

[jon_mx]

There's a significant difference between "competing" and "conflicting" jon...you know that.  I can think of dozens of contracts I had with the federal government while my father was a financial aid director using the apps we created.  Of course it was required to disclose the relationship in every one of them, however NONE of them were deemed in conflict.  Which is my point....the appearance isn't always what it seems and conflict has to be determined via further analysis/investigation.  It's NOT a given.

There would be conflict of interests if those relations were on the government side with people administering the contract.  Biden's position is what makes it a conflict.  

 

[The Commish]

There would be conflict of interests if those relations were on the government side with people administering the contract.  Biden's position is what makes it a conflict.  

To my knowledge there was no official ties between the US and Burisma much less a contract.  This is why I struggle to understand "conflict of interest" here. The relationship between the two parties is "son of VP working for Burisma that father is demanding be investigate".  For those thinking an investigation into this is necessary, is it because you believe Biden was working against some sort of agreement between the US and Burisma.  That requires Hunter to be in "cahoots" with US officials and Joe pushing to have that relationship investigated, right?  I hadn't considered this position.  I had always assumed people wanted the investigation because they thought Joe was trying to help his son in some nefarious way.  

ETA:  And FWIW....the contracts I was a part of had both my father and I on the government side with government officials administering the contract.  My father too was a government employee.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

There would be conflict of interests if those relations were on the government side with people administering the contract.  Biden's position is what makes it a conflict.  

Unsurprisingly this convo is driving me nuts.

Jon, there is "a conflict" here but - what you are doing is not a true comp, the conflict is minimal and and it's mitigated:

• This isn't contractor->vendor. It's contractor to corporate vendor, to sub, and then the sub's subs. Biden (contractor) had to deal with Poroshenko (corporate vendor), but it didn't end there. Poroshenko's decisions had to be confirmed by the whole Ukrainian parliament (the Rada) (the contractor's corporate board), then it was to Shokin's replacement (sub), then it would be to Zlochensky (sub's sub), then to Burisma (sub's sub's sub), then potentially to Rosemont Seneca and then Hunter (ie the sister, with the sub's sub's sub's sub).
  
• The contractor would have a provision that would actually activate against the sister. If the contractor had a provision that any vendor's sub or its sub's subs had to be minority, for the sake of affirmative action or diversity goals, and the contractor's sister was white, then that would be similar to Biden more or less compelling the firing of a general prosecutor who was in bed with Zlochensky and Burisma.
  

- Also again for the 1000th x, this is not the issue. This is not about COI. It could be or should be but Trump has made this about insane made up fantasies and he himself is being influenced by Yanukovich/Kremlin aligned clients of Giuliani, not COI.

 

[pinkham13]

I was using an abbreviation...is that against the rules?  

It’s is against the rules. The board police suspended me and others for doing it. They call it circumventing the language filter but they only use out on team red trump supporters mostly.

 

[FF Ninja]

It’s is against the rules. The board police suspended me and others for doing it. They call it circumventing the language filter but they only use out on team red trump supporters mostly.

I don't think this interpretation is accurate. I think things like WTF and FML are acceptable here. What they mean by circumventing the language filter is substituting a character in place of a letter. Let's say "fark" is a curse word. If someone wrote "f@rk my life" they'd get in trouble. But writing FML would've been acceptable. At least that's the way I've understood the rules and seen them enforced.

Remember, the mods set the language filter. So if they don't want "fark" to be allowed, they type that in as a word to be filtered. If they didn't want "WTF" to be allowed then they could add that in, too, and suddenly WTF would appear as ###. Given how common it is, I'd think they'd have added it if they cared about its use. This would imply to me that it is allowed.

 

[pinkham13]

I don't think this interpretation is accurate. I think things like WTF and FML are acceptable here. What they mean by circumventing the language filter is substituting a character in place of a letter. Let's say "fark" is a curse word. If someone wrote "f@rk my life" they'd get in trouble. But writing FML would've been acceptable. At least that's the way I've understood the rules and seen them enforced.

Remember, the mods set the language filter. So if they don't want "fark" to be allowed, they type that in as a word to be filtered. If they didn't want "WTF" to be allowed then they could add that in, too, and suddenly WTF would appear as ###. Given how common it is, I'd think they'd have added it if they cared about its use. This would imply to me that it is allowed.

Once again your assumption is incorrect. I was given the day off for posting the curse word for dung with the I missing because I stood up for truth and the mod didn’t like it.

 

[cosjobs]

I have not suggested there was any interfering thus I was not trying to prove any such thing.  But there was a conflict of interest.  That is it.  It taints whatever Biden did.

Exactly. Same as Don Jr

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I was given the day off for posting the curse word for dung with the I missing because I stood up for truth and the mod didn’t like it.

If there's one thing the mods hate, it's definitely the truth! Posting the truth is always the reason people get suspended.

 

[ren hoek]

Only an idiot gives credence to any of this tripe in this article.

nice

 

[pinkham13]

If there's one thing the mods hate, it's definitely the truth! Posting the truth is always the reason people get suspended.

Especially if it’s truth from a conservative viewpoint when you are winning the argument based on facts and not made up fantasies.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Especially if it’s truth from a conservative viewpoint when you are winning the argument based on facts and not made up fantasies.

Based on the feedback we get, I'm pretty confident that we definitely hate the truth from both major viewpoints.

 

[pinkham13]

Based on the feedback we get, I'm pretty confident that we definitely hate the truth from both major viewpoints.

Good one Maurile.