What’s wrong with the Mediterranean diet? (2 Viewers)

[MAC_32]

How much fish is too much fish? Been traversing Ireland for about a week and it's been the center piece of every meal since day 1's lamb shanks. My wife isn't too happy with the odor I just left behind from lunch, it's definitely worsened the last couple days.

Since I didn't receive a response to this I continued to eat all of the fish. Good news, depending on who you ask anyway, I didn't die. I'd consider most of it 'healthy,' but I did splurge on fish & chips one evening. My other big takeaway from our 2 weeks there was the lack of fruit. The same was true for vegetables, but not nearly to the same level as fruit. At just one of our B&B's they had it out, so I loaded up, but that was the only time it ended up in front of my eyes as merely an option. Once I realized that it'd be difficult to come across veggies I began seeking them out, but my portions were still lower than they were in the states.

But I share all that because I am trying to make a more focused effort to clean up my diet, as far as I'm willing to go anyway. While my wife still won't do anything fish, I'm going to start doing more, then maybe she'll tail some of what I prepare. She is on board with only buying pork and beef when it's on sale though. Hot dogs, sausages, burgers, etc will still have their place but only on particularly full stretches of days in a row.

My overarching objective is to restrict my vices to alcohol. I've primarily been a social drinker and only mixed in a couple glasses of wine solo after particularly stressful days. The problem is our social opportunities have exploded in recent years and I've been slow to adjust. I have a work happy hour today, coaches meeting Thu, am going to a concert Fri, and are hosting a couple families Sat. And that's just this week! My goal is to better implement after this weekend and focus on foods for now. Thankfully the happy hour today is at a mexican place so those drinks will be tequila and the foods mostly fresh (I avoid everything tortilla), but I'll need to plan better for Thu than usual - it's an italian joint in which I'm weak when it comes to their caloric bombs.

 

[Desert_Power]

Agreed, to a point, as I don’t believe eating a Mediterranean diet is a Herculean effort.

We’ve had this discussion for years. There’s 100’s of millions of obese people around the world that I’d like to enter in to evidence that it’s harder for people than you make it out. Should they, absolutely but if it were as easy as you seem to think it is then I don’t think we’d even be having this discussion.

I think there is a difference between what is possible in aggregate (in a current system somewhat designed for this and could be changed) and on a personal level though. Most of us can do better is how I take the point.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I don’t really hate the appeal to nature fallacy and would remind you that it’s new and that acting in accordance with one’s nature, if we’re thinking of it like Aristotle, is a very good thing.

It is an informal fallacy (much like ad hominem is) and I can see where it drives people in the medical field bonkers. In fact, every time I run into somebody weird about “unnatural” medicine I actually have to admit that I consider that person to be unintelligent and not grounded. I realized I was that kind of guy in high school with these not-too-bright metalhead friends I had who would fall for this line of thinking. ‘90s comedians used this fallacy for laughs. “Man made beer, God made weed. Who do you trust?” which has so many problems in construction and truth but clearly actually leans into this fallacy as if it were a truism!

“Hi, my name is moron,” said the comedian. And people would laugh as if this were wise. I don’t drink anymore so barkeep, please insert God’s name in vain here and make it his son. Much obliged!

Now, I hated the sneering leftist jagoff with the “I ****ing love science” sticker on his laptop in my Administrative Law class in 2012 because I was pretty damn sure we weren’t emotionally, politically, or spiritually meant to even say hello to each other, so I can only suppose that both sides of this coin have their village idiots. But the “natural” ones are more prevalent so you pick your battles.

That was a digression, huh? Must be the whole informal fallacy thing. Writing books here.

It’s the basis for much of the frustration healthcare providers experience with their patients, and fuels anti-science sentiment on a larger scale.

And yes, it’s a source of bias against patients (trigger alert!).

That doesn’t justify bullying people with appeals to scientific authority, nor does it mean science provides all the answers. But I have a hard time biting my tongue when I see/hear it.

 

[Terminalxylem]

How much fish is too much fish? Been traversing Ireland for about a week and it's been the center piece of every meal since day 1's lamb shanks. My wife isn't too happy with the odor I just left behind from lunch, it's definitely worsened the last couple days.

Since I didn't receive a response to this I continued to eat all of the fish. Good news, depending on who you ask anyway, I didn't die. I'd consider most of it 'healthy,' but I did splurge on fish & chips one evening. My other big takeaway from our 2 weeks there was the lack of fruit. The same was true for vegetables, but not nearly to the same level as fruit. At just one of our B&B's they had it out, so I loaded up, but that was the only time it ended up in front of my eyes as merely an option. Once I realized that it'd be difficult to come across veggies I began seeking them out, but my portions were still lower than they were in the states.

But I share all that because I am trying to make a more focused effort to clean up my diet, as far as I'm willing to go anyway. While my wife still won't do anything fish, I'm going to start doing more, then maybe she'll tail some of what I prepare. She is on board with only buying pork and beef when it's on sale though. Hot dogs, sausages, burgers, etc will still have their place but only on particularly full stretches of days in a row.

My overarching objective is to restrict my vices to alcohol. I've primarily been a social drinker and only mixed in a couple glasses of wine solo after particularly stressful days. The problem is our social opportunities have exploded in recent years and I've been slow to adjust. I have a work happy hour today, coaches meeting Thu, am going to a concert Fri, and are hosting a couple families Sat. And that's just this week! My goal is to better implement after this weekend and focus on foods for now. Thankfully the happy hour today is at a mexican place so those drinks will be tequila and the foods mostly fresh (I avoid everything tortilla), but I'll need to plan better for Thu than usual - it's an italian joint in which I'm weak when it comes to their caloric bombs.

There’s no simple answer, as it depends on the fish, and its preparation.

In general, you want to eat seafood lower on the food chain, as there is less amplification of toxins, like mercury and PCBs. I’d also err to wild, versus farm raised, though this is more for environmental health.

Fatty fish are generally advocated as most healthy, those in the “SMASH” mnemonic:

Salmon
Mackerel
Anchovies
Sardines
Herring

I’d shoot for 3-5 servings a week. And under NO circumstances should you grill it.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

How much fish is too much fish? Been traversing Ireland for about a week and it's been the center piece of every meal since day 1's lamb shanks. My wife isn't too happy with the odor I just left behind from lunch, it's definitely worsened the last couple days.

Since I didn't receive a response to this I continued to eat all of the fish. Good news, depending on who you ask anyway, I didn't die. I'd consider most of it 'healthy,' but I did splurge on fish & chips one evening. My other big takeaway from our 2 weeks there was the lack of fruit. The same was true for vegetables, but not nearly to the same level as fruit. At just one of our B&B's they had it out, so I loaded up, but that was the only time it ended up in front of my eyes as merely an option. Once I realized that it'd be difficult to come across veggies I began seeking them out, but my portions were still lower than they were in the states.

But I share all that because I am trying to make a more focused effort to clean up my diet, as far as I'm willing to go anyway. While my wife still won't do anything fish, I'm going to start doing more, then maybe she'll tail some of what I prepare. She is on board with only buying pork and beef when it's on sale though. Hot dogs, sausages, burgers, etc will still have their place but only on particularly full stretches of days in a row.

My overarching objective is to restrict my vices to alcohol. I've primarily been a social drinker and only mixed in a couple glasses of wine solo after particularly stressful days. The problem is our social opportunities have exploded in recent years and I've been slow to adjust. I have a work happy hour today, coaches meeting Thu, am going to a concert Fri, and are hosting a couple families Sat. And that's just this week! My goal is to better implement after this weekend and focus on foods for now. Thankfully the happy hour today is at a mexican place so those drinks will be tequila and the foods mostly fresh (I avoid everything tortilla), but I'll need to plan better for Thu than usual - it's an italian joint in which I'm weak when it comes to their caloric bombs.

There’s no simple answer, as it depends on the fish, and its preparation.

In general, you want to eat seafood lower on the food chain, as there is less amplification of toxins, like mercury and PCBs. I’d also err to wild, versus farm raised, though this is more for environmental health.

Fatty fish are generally advocated as most healthy, those in the “SMASH” mnemonic:

Salmon
Mackerel
Anchovies
Sardines
Herring

I’d shoot for 3-5 servings a week. And under NO circumstances should you grill it.

I'm going to grill some sardines just to spite you tonight (and then feed them to my dog)

 

[Terminalxylem]

How much fish is too much fish? Been traversing Ireland for about a week and it's been the center piece of every meal since day 1's lamb shanks. My wife isn't too happy with the odor I just left behind from lunch, it's definitely worsened the last couple days.

Since I didn't receive a response to this I continued to eat all of the fish. Good news, depending on who you ask anyway, I didn't die. I'd consider most of it 'healthy,' but I did splurge on fish & chips one evening. My other big takeaway from our 2 weeks there was the lack of fruit. The same was true for vegetables, but not nearly to the same level as fruit. At just one of our B&B's they had it out, so I loaded up, but that was the only time it ended up in front of my eyes as merely an option. Once I realized that it'd be difficult to come across veggies I began seeking them out, but my portions were still lower than they were in the states.

But I share all that because I am trying to make a more focused effort to clean up my diet, as far as I'm willing to go anyway. While my wife still won't do anything fish, I'm going to start doing more, then maybe she'll tail some of what I prepare. She is on board with only buying pork and beef when it's on sale though. Hot dogs, sausages, burgers, etc will still have their place but only on particularly full stretches of days in a row.

My overarching objective is to restrict my vices to alcohol. I've primarily been a social drinker and only mixed in a couple glasses of wine solo after particularly stressful days. The problem is our social opportunities have exploded in recent years and I've been slow to adjust. I have a work happy hour today, coaches meeting Thu, am going to a concert Fri, and are hosting a couple families Sat. And that's just this week! My goal is to better implement after this weekend and focus on foods for now. Thankfully the happy hour today is at a mexican place so those drinks will be tequila and the foods mostly fresh (I avoid everything tortilla), but I'll need to plan better for Thu than usual - it's an italian joint in which I'm weak when it comes to their caloric bombs.

I know it’s contrary to culture, but the key is deprogramming the alcohol=fun equation.

Judging by the frequency people cling to it as their last vice, that’s much easier said than done. But as you know, drinking can facilitate other vices as well, including dietary indiscretion.

 

[MAC_32]

There’s no simple answer, as it depends on the fish, and its preparation.

In general, you want to eat seafood lower on the food chain, as there is less amplification of toxins, like mercury and PCBs. I’d also err to wild, versus farm raised, though this is more for environmental health.

Fatty fish are generally advocated as most healthy, those in the “SMASH” mnemonic:

Salmon
Mackerel
Anchovies
Sardines
Herring

I’d shoot for 3-5 servings a week.

Day 1 - seafood chowder, menu didn't specify type, the waiter said they serve whatever fresh fish they get in that day, and there's a lot of it (he wasn't kidding)
Day 2 - salt & chili prawns and seared scallops
Day 3 - grilled seabass with lobster & prawn tagliatelle
Day 4 - fish board, don't remember everything that was on it, paraphrasing what the menu says 'whatever we catch that day made multiple ways'
Day 5 - pan fried mackrel
Day 6 - smoked salmon salad
Day 7 - cold salmon and crab
Day 8 - fish & chips
Day 9 - no fish
Day 10 - lobster roll
Day 11 - pan fried hake
Day 12 - no fish
Day 13 - another fish board, this one with haddock, prawn scampi, mussels, and fish of the day
Day 14 - lobster stew

 

[Mitchie]

How much fish is too much fish? Been traversing Ireland for about a week and it's been the center piece of every meal since day 1's lamb shanks. My wife isn't too happy with the odor I just left behind from lunch, it's definitely worsened the last couple days.

Since I didn't receive a response to this I continued to eat all of the fish. Good news, depending on who you ask anyway, I didn't die. I'd consider most of it 'healthy,' but I did splurge on fish & chips one evening. My other big takeaway from our 2 weeks there was the lack of fruit. The same was true for vegetables, but not nearly to the same level as fruit. At just one of our B&B's they had it out, so I loaded up, but that was the only time it ended up in front of my eyes as merely an option. Once I realized that it'd be difficult to come across veggies I began seeking them out, but my portions were still lower than they were in the states.

But I share all that because I am trying to make a more focused effort to clean up my diet, as far as I'm willing to go anyway. While my wife still won't do anything fish, I'm going to start doing more, then maybe she'll tail some of what I prepare. She is on board with only buying pork and beef when it's on sale though. Hot dogs, sausages, burgers, etc will still have their place but only on particularly full stretches of days in a row.

My overarching objective is to restrict my vices to alcohol. I've primarily been a social drinker and only mixed in a couple glasses of wine solo after particularly stressful days. The problem is our social opportunities have exploded in recent years and I've been slow to adjust. I have a work happy hour today, coaches meeting Thu, am going to a concert Fri, and are hosting a couple families Sat. And that's just this week! My goal is to better implement after this weekend and focus on foods for now. Thankfully the happy hour today is at a mexican place so those drinks will be tequila and the foods mostly fresh (I avoid everything tortilla), but I'll need to plan better for Thu than usual - it's an italian joint in which I'm weak when it comes to their caloric bombs.

There’s no simple answer, as it depends on the fish, and its preparation.

In general, you want to eat seafood lower on the food chain, as there is less amplification of toxins, like mercury and PCBs. I’d also err to wild, versus farm raised, though this is more for environmental health.

Fatty fish are generally advocated as most healthy, those in the “SMASH” mnemonic:

Salmon
Mackerel
Anchovies
Sardines
Herring

I’d shoot for 3-5 servings a week. And under NO circumstances should you grill it.

It's not just environmental health, wild fish are healthier for the consumer.

Top Reasons Wild-Caught Fish are Better

www.pybus.com

 

[Terminalxylem]

How much fish is too much fish? Been traversing Ireland for about a week and it's been the center piece of every meal since day 1's lamb shanks. My wife isn't too happy with the odor I just left behind from lunch, it's definitely worsened the last couple days.

Since I didn't receive a response to this I continued to eat all of the fish. Good news, depending on who you ask anyway, I didn't die. I'd consider most of it 'healthy,' but I did splurge on fish & chips one evening. My other big takeaway from our 2 weeks there was the lack of fruit. The same was true for vegetables, but not nearly to the same level as fruit. At just one of our B&B's they had it out, so I loaded up, but that was the only time it ended up in front of my eyes as merely an option. Once I realized that it'd be difficult to come across veggies I began seeking them out, but my portions were still lower than they were in the states.

But I share all that because I am trying to make a more focused effort to clean up my diet, as far as I'm willing to go anyway. While my wife still won't do anything fish, I'm going to start doing more, then maybe she'll tail some of what I prepare. She is on board with only buying pork and beef when it's on sale though. Hot dogs, sausages, burgers, etc will still have their place but only on particularly full stretches of days in a row.

My overarching objective is to restrict my vices to alcohol. I've primarily been a social drinker and only mixed in a couple glasses of wine solo after particularly stressful days. The problem is our social opportunities have exploded in recent years and I've been slow to adjust. I have a work happy hour today, coaches meeting Thu, am going to a concert Fri, and are hosting a couple families Sat. And that's just this week! My goal is to better implement after this weekend and focus on foods for now. Thankfully the happy hour today is at a mexican place so those drinks will be tequila and the foods mostly fresh (I avoid everything tortilla), but I'll need to plan better for Thu than usual - it's an italian joint in which I'm weak when it comes to their caloric bombs.

There’s no simple answer, as it depends on the fish, and its preparation.

In general, you want to eat seafood lower on the food chain, as there is less amplification of toxins, like mercury and PCBs. I’d also err to wild, versus farm raised, though this is more for environmental health.

Fatty fish are generally advocated as most healthy, those in the “SMASH” mnemonic:

Salmon
Mackerel
Anchovies
Sardines
Herring

I’d shoot for 3-5 servings a week. And under NO circumstances should you grill it.

It's not just environmental health, wild fish are healthier for the consumer.

Top Reasons Wild-Caught Fish are Better

www.pybus.com

Yeah, I know, just have never seen a good study correlating those differences to health outcomes.

 

[Terminalxylem]

There’s no simple answer, as it depends on the fish, and its preparation.

In general, you want to eat seafood lower on the food chain, as there is less amplification of toxins, like mercury and PCBs. I’d also err to wild, versus farm raised, though this is more for environmental health.

Fatty fish are generally advocated as most healthy, those in the “SMASH” mnemonic:

Salmon
Mackerel
Anchovies
Sardines
Herring

I’d shoot for 3-5 servings a week.

Day 1 - seafood chowder, menu didn't specify type, the waiter said they serve whatever fresh fish they get in that day, and there's a lot of it (he wasn't kidding)
Day 2 - salt & chili prawns and seared scallops
Day 3 - grilled seabass with lobster & prawn tagliatelle
Day 4 - fish board, don't remember everything that was on it, paraphrasing what the menu says 'whatever we catch that day made multiple ways'
Day 5 - pan fried mackrel
Day 6 - smoked salmon salad
Day 7 - cold salmon and crab
Day 8 - fish & chips
Day 9 - no fish
Day 10 - lobster roll
Day 11 - pan fried hake
Day 12 - no fish
Day 13 - another fish board, this one with haddock, prawn scampi, mussels, and fish of the day
Day 14 - lobster stew

Looks delicious!

 

[rockaction]

mercury in the fish.

/endthread

you’re welcome, you gloriously overweight citizens of computerland. enjoy.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

'Forever chemicals' in Great Lakes fish more risky than PFAS in drinking water, study says

A study published in Environmental Research finds consuming freshwater fish leads to more PFAS in the human body than drinking water.

www.jsonline.com

Kind of heart breaking, but something to keep in mind

 

[rockaction]

'Forever chemicals' in Great Lakes fish more risky than PFAS in drinking water, study says

A study published in Environmental Research finds consuming freshwater fish leads to more PFAS in the human body than drinking water.

www.jsonline.com

Kind of heart breaking, but something to keep in mind

that’s depressing and awful. don’t even know what to say.

 

[Willy]

'Forever chemicals' in Great Lakes fish more risky than PFAS in drinking water, study says

A study published in Environmental Research finds consuming freshwater fish leads to more PFAS in the human body than drinking water.

www.jsonline.com

Kind of heart breaking, but something to keep in mind

Ugh. There goes the locally sourced salmon that I like. It was smoked anyway so...

BTW - for those who aren't aware, most of the frozen walleye in stores that say they come from clean, cold Canadian waters, are coming from Lake Erie.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

'Forever chemicals' in Great Lakes fish more risky than PFAS in drinking water, study says

A study published in Environmental Research finds consuming freshwater fish leads to more PFAS in the human body than drinking water.

www.jsonline.com

Kind of heart breaking, but something to keep in mind

Ugh. There goes the locally sourced salmon that I like. It was smoked anyway so...

BTW - for those who aren't aware, most of the frozen walleye in stores that say they come from clean, cold Canadian waters, are coming from Lake Erie.

Yeah it's pretty awful. I'm not much of a fisherman these days, but my old man lives to fish. I have two chest freezers full of fish and wild game. Salmon, lake trout, walleye, perch, whitefish all from Lake Superior, Lake Michigan, and the surrounding inland lakes.

I eat it all, but try and keep it to once a month or so. Two things with this: 1 age matters, so smaller is better. A large lake trout might be 30 years old, that's a long time to accumulate toxins. 2 something like sardines that's a bait fish and lower on the food chain is likely to have a lot less accumulate in it's lifetime.

I do my best to avoid all the toxins, but it's getting harder and harder to do, so I weigh my options and do my best.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Standard Mainstream Health Advice

People Who Live the Longest Swear by These 9 Rules

We’ve been told all our lives that doing certain things will help us live longer. Eat plenty of vegetables. Avoid sugar. Drink lots of water. Exercise regularly. We can hear our mother’s voice right now. These habits are definitely more helpful than harmful, and longevity expert Dan Buettner...

betterreport.com

 

[Terminalxylem]

Standard Mainstream Health Advice

People Who Live the Longest Swear by These 9 Rules

We’ve been told all our lives that doing certain things will help us live longer. Eat plenty of vegetables. Avoid sugar. Drink lots of water. Exercise regularly. We can hear our mother’s voice right now. These habits are definitely more helpful than harmful, and longevity expert Dan Buettner...

betterreport.com

I liked this post, but feel as though some of the advice is no longer mainstream.

WRT diet, contemporary nutrition often focuses more on macronutrients than actual food. And many “gurus” are satisfied with just avoiding processed* foods, especially if you sprinkle in stuff that sounds natural.

*smoked/grilled/cured meats are often conspicuously excluded

 

[Joe Bryant]

I liked this post, but feel as though some of the advice is no longer mainstream.

I feel differently. When I saw the headline and clicked the article, it felt like exactly the kind of points I see repeated regularly over and over, including the diet.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

I liked this post, but feel as though some of the advice is no longer mainstream.

I feel differently. When I saw the headline and clicked the article, it felt like exactly the kind of points I see repeated regularly over and over, including the diet.

One thing and this might be unpopular and I've beat the drum for do your best, but wine probably isn't healthy and any benefit is likely offset by the alcohol. Berries and dark chocolate (moderate amount) will give those benefits and then some.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I liked this post, but feel as though some of the advice is no longer mainstream.

I feel differently. When I saw the headline and clicked the article, it felt like exactly the kind of points I see repeated regularly over and over, including the diet.

One thing and this might be unpopular and I've beat the drum for do your best, but wine probably isn't healthy and any benefit is likely offset by the alcohol. Berries and dark chocolate (moderate amount) will give those benefits and then some.

Agreed. The no or very little alcohol stance has become very popular in recommendations. Seems like most of the popular voices (even the "gurus") all are saying the same thing.

Momentum is interesting.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And to your point @The Longtime Lurker , that's maybe the only "problem" I see people having (outside of cost maybe) with the Mediterranean Diet. I don't see hardly anyone recommending moderate red wine consumption.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

And to your point @The Longtime Lurker , that's maybe the only "problem" I see people having (outside of cost maybe) with the Mediterranean Diet. I don't see hardly anyone recommending moderate red wine consumption.

Yeah, sometimes i think people take it to literal. "Mediterranean" doesn't necessarily mean you have to eat exactly like people in the Mediterranean. It's the properties of the food that matter most and there's a variety of ways to get them.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And to your point @The Longtime Lurker , that's maybe the only "problem" I see people having (outside of cost maybe) with the Mediterranean Diet. I don't see hardly anyone recommending moderate red wine consumption.

Yeah, sometimes i think people take it to literal. "Mediterranean" doesn't necessarily mean you have to eat exactly like people in the Mediterranean. It's the properties of the food that matter most and there's a variety of ways to get them.

Yes. But moderate red wine consumption is one of the key parts of the Mediterranean Diet. You're right though, I don't think it's helpful to try and seek 100% purity compliance with these.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I liked this post, but feel as though some of the advice is no longer mainstream.

I feel differently. When I saw the headline and clicked the article, it felt like exactly the kind of points I see repeated regularly over and over, including the diet.

I guess I’m thinking about what I see in diet threads here, and guys like Attia and Huberman being vocal proponents of venison jerky (a processed red meat). In my limited viewing/reading of their material, it was mentioned repeatedly, more than any other food.

So “eat more fruits and veggies” is parroted, but it takes a back seat to “those carbs will get me fat” and “how do you get your protein?”

And discussion of healthy grains has almost completely evaporated, a casualty of carbophobia, imo.

 

[Terminalxylem]

And to your point @The Longtime Lurker , that's maybe the only "problem" I see people having (outside of cost maybe) with the Mediterranean Diet. I don't see hardly anyone recommending moderate red wine consumption.

Yeah, sometimes i think people take it to literal. "Mediterranean" doesn't necessarily mean you have to eat exactly like people in the Mediterranean. It's the properties of the food that matter most and there's a variety of ways to get them.

Yes. But moderate red wine consumption is one of the key parts of the Mediterranean Diet. You're right though, I don't think it's helpful to try and seek 100% purity compliance with these.

Moderation is the hard part, as you’re weighing risks of addiction/cancer/heart/liver disease, etc. vs. modest vascular benefit, most pronounced with red wine.

Although the WHO declared no amount of alcohol consumption is safe, there’s decent data that shows all cause mortality is reduced somewhere between 1-2 servings daily.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And yes, it’s a source of bias against patients (trigger alert!).

Seems odd to be so flip about a bias against patients. Not "triggered" at all, I've just never heard a medical person talk about it out loud.

I asked before, but didn't see the answer - how does a bias against patients fit with the Hippocratic Oath?

 

[Terminalxylem]

And yes, it’s a source of bias against patients (trigger alert!).

Seems odd to be so flip about a bias against patients. Not "triggered" at all, I've just never heard a medical person talk about it out loud.

I asked before, but didn't see the answer - how does a bias against patients fit with the Hippocratic Oath?

I don’t think it’s odd healthcare professionals have bias, just like every other human. But I believe it’s valuable to recognize one’s own biases, in an attempt to overcome/compensate for them.

I’m making light with the “trigger alert!”, as I found it surprising that word elicited such strong responses here. But as I said earlier, it wouldn’t be helpful to inform a patient of every potential bias irl. Semi-anonymous internet forum, when not involved in a professional relationship, different story.

The Hippocratic oath doesn’t address bias explicitly, only that one should provide care to the best of their ability and judgement.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Google AI agrees:

Humans cannot be completely free from bias, as it is a natural part of our thinking shaped by experiences and social conditioning. However, we can work to recognize and manage our biases to make more informed decisions.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I don’t really hate the appeal to nature fallacy and would remind you that it’s new and that acting in accordance with one’s nature, if we’re thinking of it like Aristotle, is a very good thing.

It is an informal fallacy (much like ad hominem is) and I can see where it drives people in the medical field bonkers. In fact, every time I run into somebody weird about “unnatural” medicine I actually have to admit that I consider that person to be unintelligent and not grounded. I realized I was that kind of guy in high school with these not-too-bright metalhead friends I had who would fall for this line of thinking. ‘90s comedians used this fallacy for laughs. “Man made beer, God made weed. Who do you trust?” which has so many problems in construction and truth but clearly actually leans into this fallacy as if it were a truism!

“Hi, my name is moron,” said the comedian. And people would laugh as if this were wise. I don’t drink anymore so barkeep, please insert God’s name in vain here and make it his son. Much obliged!

Now, I hated the sneering leftist jagoff with the “I ****ing love science” sticker on his laptop in my Administrative Law class in 2012 because I was pretty damn sure we weren’t emotionally, politically, or spiritually meant to even say hello to each other, so I can only suppose that both sides of this coin have their village idiots. But the “natural” ones are more prevalent so you pick your battles.

That was a digression, huh? Must be the whole informal fallacy thing. Writing books here.

It’s the basis for much of the frustration healthcare providers experience with their patients, and fuels anti-science sentiment on a larger scale.

And yes, it’s a source of bias against patients (trigger alert!).

That doesn’t justify bullying people with appeals to scientific authority, nor does it mean science provides all the answers. But I have a hard time biting my tongue when I see/hear it.

We are aware. You have to be the only right voice in everyone of these conversations. I mean you were literally about to die on the hill that grilling meat was processed food when you know damn well what normal people were talking about with processed food.

Same as patients questioning you triggers you because you think you're right and they are automatically wrong.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

And to your point @The Longtime Lurker , that's maybe the only "problem" I see people having (outside of cost maybe) with the Mediterranean Diet. I don't see hardly anyone recommending moderate red wine consumption.

Yeah, sometimes i think people take it to literal. "Mediterranean" doesn't necessarily mean you have to eat exactly like people in the Mediterranean. It's the properties of the food that matter most and there's a variety of ways to get them.

Yes. But moderate red wine consumption is one of the key parts of the Mediterranean Diet. You're right though, I don't think it's helpful to try and seek 100% purity compliance with these.

Moderation is the hard part, as you’re weighing risks of addiction/cancer/heart/liver disease, etc. vs. modest vascular benefit, most pronounced with red wine.

Although the WHO declared no amount of alcohol consumption is safe, there’s decent data that shows all cause mortality is reduced somewhere between 1-2 servings daily.

Grilled food bad, drinking alcohol everyday good. Your messaging can get confusing. Alcohol (wine in the case) is also a processed food. Those same benefits to the heart can also be found in much healthier less to no processed options without the poison that is alcohol.

I know I've pushed do your best, but taking a soft stance on alcohol or even suggesting it's healthy with all the potential downside for minimum benefits compared to alternatives ive never understood when reading these kinds of articles.

I tried to make a point about the term "processed" and that almost all our food fits the definition earlier. So pointing out venison jerky (is dehydration why it's termed processed or does the jerky he sells have additives? I make my own venison jerky and it's a spice rub and dried, it's delicious, but technically processed) is processed and not mentioning wine is also a processed (if that word is what we're vilifying) food is curious.

 

[Terminalxylem]

And to your point @The Longtime Lurker , that's maybe the only "problem" I see people having (outside of cost maybe) with the Mediterranean Diet. I don't see hardly anyone recommending moderate red wine consumption.

Yeah, sometimes i think people take it to literal. "Mediterranean" doesn't necessarily mean you have to eat exactly like people in the Mediterranean. It's the properties of the food that matter most and there's a variety of ways to get them.

Yes. But moderate red wine consumption is one of the key parts of the Mediterranean Diet. You're right though, I don't think it's helpful to try and seek 100% purity compliance with these.

Moderation is the hard part, as you’re weighing risks of addiction/cancer/heart/liver disease, etc. vs. modest vascular benefit, most pronounced with red wine.

Although the WHO declared no amount of alcohol consumption is safe, there’s decent data that shows all cause mortality is reduced somewhere between 1-2 servings daily.

Grilled food bad, drinking alcohol everyday good. Your messaging can get confusing. Alcohol (wine in the case) is also a processed food. Those same benefits to the heart can also be found in much healthier less to no processed options without the poison that is alcohol.

I know I've pushed do your best, but taking a soft stance on alcohol or even suggesting it's healthy with all the potential downside for minimum benefits compared to alternatives ive never understood when reading these kinds of articles.

I tried to make a point about the term "processed" and that almost all our food fits the definition earlier. So pointing out venison jerky (is dehydration why it's termed processed or does the jerky he sells have additives? I make my own venison jerky and it's a spice rub and dried, it's delicious, but technically processed) is processed and not mentioning wine is also a processed (if that word is what we're vilifying) food is curious.

I think most contemporary nutritionists are moving toward the NOVA classification system to designate degree of food processing, though the nomenclature isn’t always consistent. There are four NOVA groups:

Group 1. Unprocessed or minimally processed foods​

Unprocessed (or natural) foods are edible parts of plants (seeds, fruits, leaves, stems, roots) or of animals (muscle, offal, eggs, milk), and also fungi, algae and water, after separation from nature. Minimally processed foods are natural foods altered by processes that include removal of inedible or unwanted parts, and drying, crushing, grinding, fractioning, filtering, roasting, boiling, non-alcoholic fermentation, pasteurization, refrigeration, chilling, freezing, placing in containers and vacuum-packaging. These processes are designed to preserve natural foods, to make them suitable for storage, or to make them safe or edible or more pleasant to consume. Many unprocessed or minimally processed foods are prepared and cooked at home or in restaurant kitchens in combination with processed culinary ingredients as dishes or meals.

Group 2. Processed culinary ingredients​

Processed culinary ingredients, such as oils, butter, sugar and salt, are substances derived from Group 1 foods or from nature by processes that include pressing, refining, grinding, milling and drying. The purpose of such processes is to make durable products that are suitable for use in home and restaurant kitchens to prepare, season and cook Group 1 foods and to make with them varied and enjoyable hand-made dishes and meals, such as stews, soups and broths, salads, breads, preserves, drinks and desserts. They are not meant to be consumed by themselves, and are normally used in combination with Group 1 foods to make freshly prepared drinks, dishes and meals.

Group 3. Processed foods​

Processed foods, such as bottled vegetables, canned fish, fruits in syrup, cheeses and freshly made breads, are made essentially by adding salt, oil, sugar or other substances from Group 2 to Group 1 foods. Processes include various preservation or cooking methods, and, in the case of breads and cheese, non-alcoholic fermentation. Most processed foods have two or three ingredients, and are recognizable as modified versions of Group 1 foods. They are edible by themselves or, more usually, in combination with other foods. The purpose of processing here is to increase the durability of Group 1 foods, or to modify or enhance their sensory qualities.

Group 4. Ultra-processed foods​

Ultra-processed foods, such as soft drinks, sweet or savoury packaged snacks, reconstituted meat products and pre-prepared frozen dishes, are not modified foods but formulations made mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods and additives, with little if any intact Group 1 food.

Ingredients of these formulations usually include those also used in processed foods, such as sugars, oils, fats or salt. But ultra-processed products also include other sources of energy and nutrients not normally used in culinary preparations. Some of these are directly extracted from foods, such as casein, lactose, whey and gluten. Many are derived from further processing of food constituents, such as hydrogenated or interesterified oils, hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate, maltodextrin, invert sugar and high-fructose corn syrup.

Additives in ultra-processed foods include some also used in processed foods, such as preservatives, antioxidants and stabilizers. Classes of additives found only in ultra-processed products include those used to imitate or enhance the sensory qualities of foods or to disguise unpalatable aspects of the final product. These additives include dyes and other colours, colour stabilizers; flavours, flavour enhancers, non-sugar sweeteners; and processing aids such as carbonating, firming, bulking and anti-bulking, de-foaming, anti-caking and glazing agents, emulsifiers, sequestrants and humectants.

A multitude of sequences of processes is used to combine the usually many ingredients and to create the final product (hence ‘ultra-processed’). The processes include several with no domestic equivalents, such as hydrogenation and hydrolysation, extrusion and moulding, and pre-processing for frying.

The overall purpose of ultra-processing is to create branded, convenient (durable, ready to consume), attractive (hyper-palatable) and highly profitable (low-cost ingredients) food products designed to displace all other food groups. Ultra-processed food products are usually packaged attractively and marketed intensively.

Importantly, this system isn’t intended to stratify the healthfulness of food. Sure, ultraprocessed (NOVA 4) food/drink is all unhealthy, but there are examples of both good/bad foods within the other classes.

Example: TMK, no nutrition/medical guidelines advocate regular red meat consumption, as it’s considered a risk for cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer, as well as being linked to increased all cause mortality. But depending on how you prepare it, red meat can be considered NOVA 1.

OTOH, canned chickpeas in water, with a little added salt, is NOVA 3. That’s not ideal, but still fairly healthy.

Independently, smoked, salted, or cured meat (including jerky - NOVA 3) is considered unhealthy. Every once in a while, likely no big deal, but making it a staple of one’s diet, as appears to be the case with some podcast “experts”, runs pretty far astray of mainstream nutrition/medical advice.

As for alcohol, I tend to err more towards the World Health Organization’s stance, as moderation often fails in practice. That said, I can’t ignore recent meta analyses on the subject, which show benefit from modest alcohol consumption, even after “sick quitters” (ie. reformed alcoholics, or those who stopped drinking due to intercurrent illness) are excluded from the equation.

Tl;dr Ultraprocessed stuff is uniformly bad, some processed food worse than others. Low-level alcohol consumption appears to have health benefits, but real world application of this knowledge is problematic.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Tl;dr Ultraprocessed stuff is uniformly bad, some processed food worse than others. Low-level alcohol consumption appears to have health benefits, but real world application of this knowledge is problematic.

Ok, venison is bad, today i learned worse than alcohol, but is what Peter Attia sells processed beyond spiced and dehydrated? Perhaps it is, i have no idea. You mention curing and smoking, but you don't need to do either to make jerky. Like i mentioned, i make my own and it's a spice rub (dried herbs and some salt. I guess surface seasoning could be considered curing) and then dehydrated, that's minimally processed. Earlier we discussed organic (maybe that was a different thread), and that it doesn't mean what people think. I gave an example of the farm i buy my food from and it is truly organic. The options exist if you care enough.

Why recommend wine over eating red grapes or blueberries? I guess because you're telling me the alcohol is beneficial. That makes me pause and wonder about that data. The alcohol industry has deep pockets.

 

[fatness]

Speaking of ultra-processed foods:
https://www.cnn.com/2025/08/08/health/aha-ultraprocessed-food-guidelines-wellness

New data released Thursday by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found Americans over the age of 1 get 55% of their daily calories from ultraprocessed food. That number jumped to 62% for children between 1 and 18 years old.

That’s concerning, the AHA report said, because research has found a dose-response relationship between ultraprocessed foods and heart attacks and stroke, type 2 diabetes, obesity and all-cause mortality. Just one extra serving a day of ultraprocessed food led to some 50% higher risk of cardiovascular disease-related death, according to a February 2024 review of 45 meta-analyses on almost 10 million people.

Eating more ultraprocessed foods may also increase the risk of obesity by 55%, sleep disorders by 41%, development of type 2 diabetes by 40% and the risk of depression by 20%, according to the review.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I’m making light with the “trigger alert!”, as I found it surprising that word elicited such strong responses here. But as I said earlier, it wouldn’t be helpful to inform a patient of every potential bias irl. Semi-anonymous internet forum, when not involved in a professional relationship, different story.

The Hippocratic oath doesn’t address bias explicitly, only that one should provide care to the best of their ability and judgement.

You're surprised people would have a strong reaction to a medical person saying they have a bias against some patients?

I'm surprised you'd be surprised by that.

In the one case the reason was patients who wanted to do their own research. What other beliefs might patients hold that would also merit a negative bias from the medical people serving them?

For the Hippocratic Oath, I'd think not holding a bias against the people you're serving would be pretty base level understanding stuff.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

This is the Hippocratic Oath. Seems like it needs to be posted:

I swear by Apollo Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.

To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the Healer's oath, but to nobody else.

I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgment, and I will do no harm or injustice to them. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.

Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.

Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I break it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Tl;dr Ultraprocessed stuff is uniformly bad, some processed food worse than others. Low-level alcohol consumption appears to have health benefits, but real world application of this knowledge is problematic.

Ok, venison is bad, today i learned worse than alcohol, but is what Peter Attia sells processed beyond spiced and dehydrated? Perhaps it is, i have no idea. You mention curing and smoking, but you don't need to do either to make jerky. Like i mentioned, i make my own and it's a spice rub (dried herbs and some salt. I guess surface seasoning could be considered curing) and then dehydrated, that's minimally processed. Earlier we discussed organic (maybe that was a different thread), and that it doesn't mean what people think. I gave an example of the farm i buy my food from and it is truly organic. The options exist if you care enough.

Why recommend wine over eating red grapes or blueberries? I guess because you're telling me the alcohol is beneficial. That makes me pause and wonder about that data. The alcohol industry has deep pockets.

I'm not recommending wine. I don't care for the taste, nor the ceremony that goes along with it. Colossal waste of time and money, imo.

Not recommending drinking alcohol at all. Just presenting the evidence, to the best of my knowledge. I also should note, this topic is still debated, due to methodological problems with some studies, which cloud the issue.

Per our prior discussion, I'm not certain venison jerky specifically is bad for you, as that particular food hasn't been rigorously studied, tmk. But I know it's a red meat that is processed to some extent, for which there's ample data to suggest consumption correlates to multiple diseases.

In contrast to alcohol, there's no evidence moderate red meat consumption, processed or not, is healthful. Sure, it contains protein and a few nutrients, so it's not all bad. But on balance, not a healthy food choice.

Venison jerky is a double whammy of misguided pop nutrition, in that it's being heavily promoted as a vehicle for protein, while simultaneously invoking the appeal to nature fallacy. This is what happens when we focus on macronutrients rather than foods, and romanticize dietary primitivism as a solution for our ultra processed woes.

To be clear: I'm with you on alcohol. You can get its putative health benefits from other sources, without incurring the risk. Same goes for the jerky.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I’m making light with the “trigger alert!”, as I found it surprising that word elicited such strong responses here. But as I said earlier, it wouldn’t be helpful to inform a patient of every potential bias irl. Semi-anonymous internet forum, when not involved in a professional relationship, different story.

The Hippocratic oath doesn’t address bias explicitly, only that one should provide care to the best of their ability and judgement.

You're surprised people would have a strong reaction to a medical person saying they have a bias against some patients?

I'm surprised you'd be surprised by that.

In the one case the reason was patients who wanted to do their own research. What other beliefs might patients hold that would also merit a negative bias from the medical people serving them?

For the Hippocratic Oath, I'd think not holding a bias against the people you're serving would be pretty base level understanding stuff.

So I'm clear, you believe your personal healthcare providers are bias-free? What about you?

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Tl;dr Ultraprocessed stuff is uniformly bad, some processed food worse than others. Low-level alcohol consumption appears to have health benefits, but real world application of this knowledge is problematic.

Ok, venison is bad, today i learned worse than alcohol, but is what Peter Attia sells processed beyond spiced and dehydrated? Perhaps it is, i have no idea. You mention curing and smoking, but you don't need to do either to make jerky. Like i mentioned, i make my own and it's a spice rub (dried herbs and some salt. I guess surface seasoning could be considered curing) and then dehydrated, that's minimally processed. Earlier we discussed organic (maybe that was a different thread), and that it doesn't mean what people think. I gave an example of the farm i buy my food from and it is truly organic. The options exist if you care enough.

Why recommend wine over eating red grapes or blueberries? I guess because you're telling me the alcohol is beneficial. That makes me pause and wonder about that data. The alcohol industry has deep pockets.

I'm not recommending wine. I don't care for the taste, nor the ceremony that goes along with it. Colossal waste of time and money, imo.

Not recommending drinking alcohol at all. Just presenting the evidence, to the best of my knowledge. I also should note, this topic is still debated, due to methodological problems with some studies, which cloud the issue.

Per our prior discussion, I'm not certain venison jerky specifically is bad for you, as that particular food hasn't been rigorously studied, tmk. But I know it's a red meat that is processed to some extent, for which there's ample data to suggest consumption correlates to multiple diseases.

In contrast to alcohol, there's no evidence moderate red meat consumption, processed or not, is healthful. Sure, it contains protein and a few nutrients, so it's not all bad. But on balance, not a healthy food choice.

Venison jerky is a double whammy of misguided pop nutrition, in that it's being heavily promoted as a vehicle for protein, while simultaneously invoking the appeal to nature fallacy. This is what happens when we focus on macronutrients rather than foods, and romanticize dietary primitivism as a solution for our ultra processed woes.

To be clear: I'm with you on alcohol. You can get its putative health benefits from other sources, without incurring the risk. Same goes for the jerky.

I'm glad we can agree on alcohol. Venison would require a level of convincing that probably isn't available.

I've seen the recommendations regarding red meat venison included and the risks. I don't think I've seen anything regarding venison in particular that couldn't be refuted with equally compelling evidence that a weekly serving is sufficient for disease. I'll agree it shouldn't be a daily choice.

My family has been making venison jerky for generations, so it's not a pop nutrition thing for me like it may be for others. I had no idea that was even the case until i saw it in a thread here (I don't pay much mind to the sales pitch the gurus make). It's just a tasty easy on the go snack and i never thought of it as anything else. It's interesting that it's promoted as something magical. I'll also agree the "exotic" nature of it as wild game makes it attractive from a marketing perspective.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Tl;dr Ultraprocessed stuff is uniformly bad, some processed food worse than others. Low-level alcohol consumption appears to have health benefits, but real world application of this knowledge is problematic.

Ok, venison is bad, today i learned worse than alcohol, but is what Peter Attia sells processed beyond spiced and dehydrated? Perhaps it is, i have no idea. You mention curing and smoking, but you don't need to do either to make jerky. Like i mentioned, i make my own and it's a spice rub (dried herbs and some salt. I guess surface seasoning could be considered curing) and then dehydrated, that's minimally processed. Earlier we discussed organic (maybe that was a different thread), and that it doesn't mean what people think. I gave an example of the farm i buy my food from and it is truly organic. The options exist if you care enough.

Why recommend wine over eating red grapes or blueberries? I guess because you're telling me the alcohol is beneficial. That makes me pause and wonder about that data. The alcohol industry has deep pockets.

I'm not recommending wine. I don't care for the taste, nor the ceremony that goes along with it. Colossal waste of time and money, imo.

Not recommending drinking alcohol at all. Just presenting the evidence, to the best of my knowledge. I also should note, this topic is still debated, due to methodological problems with some studies, which cloud the issue.

Per our prior discussion, I'm not certain venison jerky specifically is bad for you, as that particular food hasn't been rigorously studied, tmk. But I know it's a red meat that is processed to some extent, for which there's ample data to suggest consumption correlates to multiple diseases.

In contrast to alcohol, there's no evidence moderate red meat consumption, processed or not, is healthful. Sure, it contains protein and a few nutrients, so it's not all bad. But on balance, not a healthy food choice.

Venison jerky is a double whammy of misguided pop nutrition, in that it's being heavily promoted as a vehicle for protein, while simultaneously invoking the appeal to nature fallacy. This is what happens when we focus on macronutrients rather than foods, and romanticize dietary primitivism as a solution for our ultra processed woes.

To be clear: I'm with you on alcohol. You can get its putative health benefits from other sources, without incurring the risk. Same goes for the jerky.

I'm glad we can agree on alcohol. Venison would require a level of convincing that probably isn't available.

I've seen the recommendations regarding red meat venison included and the risks. I don't think I've seen anything regarding venison in particular that couldn't be refuted with equally compelling evidence that a weekly serving is sufficient for disease. I'll agree it shouldn't be a daily choice.

My family has been making venison jerky for generations, so it's not a pop nutrition thing for me like it may be for others. I had no idea that was even the case until i saw it in a thread here (I don't pay much mind to the sales pitch the gurus make). It's just a tasty easy on the go snack and i never thought of it as anything else. It's interesting that it's promoted as something magical. I'll also agree the "exotic" nature of it as wild game makes it attractive from a marketing perspective.

Yeah, I apologize for the tone of that post. I wasn’t trying to insult you or your family’s eating habits, nor ascribe motivation behind them. I’m sure venison jerky is tasty, and has been enjoyed long before podcasts became a source for health information.

Although I generally like what Attia has to say, his credibility is undermined with nutrition advice, imo. And I, too, didn’t realize venison jerky was a thing, until I saw Huberman peddling it on his show.

They can say and endorse whatever they want, of course. Still, their opinions are taken as scientific gospel by some, and I wanted to point out this is far from the reality.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Tl;dr Ultraprocessed stuff is uniformly bad, some processed food worse than others. Low-level alcohol consumption appears to have health benefits, but real world application of this knowledge is problematic.

Ok, venison is bad, today i learned worse than alcohol, but is what Peter Attia sells processed beyond spiced and dehydrated? Perhaps it is, i have no idea. You mention curing and smoking, but you don't need to do either to make jerky. Like i mentioned, i make my own and it's a spice rub (dried herbs and some salt. I guess surface seasoning could be considered curing) and then dehydrated, that's minimally processed. Earlier we discussed organic (maybe that was a different thread), and that it doesn't mean what people think. I gave an example of the farm i buy my food from and it is truly organic. The options exist if you care enough.

Why recommend wine over eating red grapes or blueberries? I guess because you're telling me the alcohol is beneficial. That makes me pause and wonder about that data. The alcohol industry has deep pockets.

I'm not recommending wine. I don't care for the taste, nor the ceremony that goes along with it. Colossal waste of time and money, imo.

Not recommending drinking alcohol at all. Just presenting the evidence, to the best of my knowledge. I also should note, this topic is still debated, due to methodological problems with some studies, which cloud the issue.

Per our prior discussion, I'm not certain venison jerky specifically is bad for you, as that particular food hasn't been rigorously studied, tmk. But I know it's a red meat that is processed to some extent, for which there's ample data to suggest consumption correlates to multiple diseases.

In contrast to alcohol, there's no evidence moderate red meat consumption, processed or not, is healthful. Sure, it contains protein and a few nutrients, so it's not all bad. But on balance, not a healthy food choice.

Venison jerky is a double whammy of misguided pop nutrition, in that it's being heavily promoted as a vehicle for protein, while simultaneously invoking the appeal to nature fallacy. This is what happens when we focus on macronutrients rather than foods, and romanticize dietary primitivism as a solution for our ultra processed woes.

To be clear: I'm with you on alcohol. You can get its putative health benefits from other sources, without incurring the risk. Same goes for the jerky.

I'm glad we can agree on alcohol. Venison would require a level of convincing that probably isn't available.

I've seen the recommendations regarding red meat venison included and the risks. I don't think I've seen anything regarding venison in particular that couldn't be refuted with equally compelling evidence that a weekly serving is sufficient for disease. I'll agree it shouldn't be a daily choice.

My family has been making venison jerky for generations, so it's not a pop nutrition thing for me like it may be for others. I had no idea that was even the case until i saw it in a thread here (I don't pay much mind to the sales pitch the gurus make). It's just a tasty easy on the go snack and i never thought of it as anything else. It's interesting that it's promoted as something magical. I'll also agree the "exotic" nature of it as wild game makes it attractive from a marketing perspective.

Yeah, I apologize for the tone of that post. I wasn’t trying to insult you or your family’s eating habits, nor ascribe motivation behind them. I’m sure venison jerky is tasty, and has been enjoyed long before podcasts became a source for health information.

Although I generally like what Attia has to say, his credibility is undermined with nutrition advice, imo. And I, too, didn’t realize venison jerky was a thing, until I saw Huberman peddling it on his show.

They can say and endorse whatever they want, of course. Still, their opinions are taken as scientific gospel by some, and I wanted to point out this is far from the reality.

No offense taken. I just mentioned that since it's being marketed in a way that was surprising and my intake of it is probably a cultural thing more than nutritional and not influenced by current fads. I've honestly never thought about it as a potential health risk. Every influence in my life has always touted the benifits of wild game and making jetky from it a healthy alternative to grocery store snacks. I agree red meat should be limited and for me that's a couple servings a week. Something to think about though.

I linked an article earlier about "forever chemicals" in the great lakes and the fish we source locally. Perfect seems off the table in any reasonable way at this point. I don't know the solution. I RO filter my water, eat whole foods (even if not optimal) to avoid ultraprocessed. If there's a better way I'm certainly open to ideas.

As far as gurus peddling sketchy supplements it does hurt credibility. AG1 is probably a good example also. I have no idea what the processing techniques for that are, but at best I imagine it just passes through without offering most of the claimed benifits, but money makes the world go round.

 

[Joe Bryant]

So I'm clear, you believe your personal healthcare providers are bias-free? What about you?

I'd assume most people have some sort of bias and prejudice.

I would hope my healthcare providers would try as hard as they can to be free from negative bias toward me.

And if they did somehow feel some negative bias, I'd hope they wouldn't make light of it and double down on when asked about it.

I'm sure I hold bias as well. But I see it as a negative and something to eliminate. Not make light of.

 

[Mister CIA]

So I'm clear, you believe your personal healthcare providers are bias-free? What about you?

I'd assume most people have some sort of bias and prejudice.

I would hope my healthcare providers would try as hard as they can to be free from negative bias toward me.

And if they did somehow feel some negative bias, I'd hope they wouldn't make light of it and double down on when asked about it.

I'm sure I hold bias as well. But I see it as a negative and something to eliminate. Not make light of.

Your passive-aggresive is showing.

 

[Joe Bryant]

So I'm clear, you believe your personal healthcare providers are bias-free? What about you?

I'd assume most people have some sort of bias and prejudice.

I would hope my healthcare providers would try as hard as they can to be free from negative bias toward me.

And if they did somehow feel some negative bias, I'd hope they wouldn't make light of it and double down on when asked about it.

I'm sure I hold bias as well. But I see it as a negative and something to eliminate. Not make light of.

Your passive-aggresive is showing.

Nothing passive there. Or aggressive. We're talking about his bias and making light of it and he asked if I believed my personal healthcare providers are bias-free.

That's my honest, clear and direct answer.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I should also say, while I'm surprised by the answer, and I'd hope my healthcare providers would not share the same bias, I appreciate the honesty.

That's helpful to know.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The BEST doctors are those who understand their shortcomings and prejudices. We ALL have them. If one understands them, they have a shot at addressing them and/or mitigating them when it comes to impact to patients. Those people who are aware should be applauded. If we need an active, working example, walk into ANY emergency room facility in the country and observe for a day. The people there are saints and all have biases they have to suppress every single day.

 

[djmich]

The BEST doctors are those who understand their shortcomings and prejudices. We ALL have them. If one understands them, they have a shot at addressing them and/or mitigating them when it comes to impact to patients. Those people who are aware should be applauded. If we need an active, working example, walk into ANY emergency room facility in the country and observe for a day. The people there are saints and all have biases they have to suppress every single day.

I think largely correct, but simply being aware of one's biases or prejudices is not sufficient, you have to actively work to counteract them.

 

[3C's]

So, minimally processed, plant-based, a lot of olive oil, fish instead of other meats, some alcohol and dairy. No counting macronutrients.

So pretty much the perfect diet...